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There is a traditional Christian belief which claims that Jesus was in the Garden of Eden at the time of Eve's innocence. This belief has been represented in the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch. Since it is a fairly unusual belief, it ought to be researched more in depth in order to find out where it came from. [1] ADM ( talk) 16:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I've heard that theory too. Essentially, when God talks to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2, and when God walks in the garden in Genesis 3, "God" is actually Jesus (since, according to most Christian beliefs, Jesus is God). See particularly Genesis 3:3 -
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day" (GEN 3:3 NIV)
-- Hendrixjoseph ( talk) 23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Lord is a title of power, Lord God is meant as a different person to Lord Jesus. Slightnostalgia ( talk) 13:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
I propose a link to Gobekli Tepe as a suspected location, even if it's only in the "See also" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobekli_Tepe
Dianaramadani ( talk) 01:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC) The only thing in our article relevant is a couple of links, but see [2] - this is so tenuous it just floats away. No one is seriously claiming this so far as I can tell. dougweller ( talk) 05:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree, however this is a city, there were many fourth race cities around the dawn of the bible. The true location is Elazig in Turkey. There is a dried lake bed of green water, there you will find eden is indeed true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asfd8888 ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Author Andrew Collins in his work "Gobekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods. The Temple of the Watchers and the Discovery of Eden" adduces a convincing argument that Garden of Eden existed in the Armenian Highlands (or Armenian Plateau), in the Plain of Mush of ancient region of Taron in Greater Armenia, that is north of Gobekli Tepe and west of the Lake Van, and not in Gobekli Tepe. In this context, Collins uses extensively the correct toponyms, such as "historical Armenia", "Greater Armenia", "Armenian Highlands", "Armenian region of Taron", etc. in which, based on his findings, the Garden may have existed. The fact that the Plain of Mush is now located in Turkey as a result of mass murders and forced deportation of the entire Armenian population during the Armenian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey, doesn't change the historically known toponyms, such as Armenian Highlands, or the fact of existence of many Armenian sanctuaries, such as the Monastery of Yeghrdut, which Collins particularly emphasizes as being--possibly--an important landmark that came to existence as a result of Armenian Biblical traditions that placed the Garden of Eden close to that monastery. Therefore, at least as one possible site for the Garden, the Armenian Highlands ought to be mentioned in the article with reference to the reliable source, i.e Collins' account.
71.191.12.221 (
talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian
71.191.12.221 (
talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
And how one can characterize—or stigmatize, rather—an author or a publisher as being “fringe”? Is there a clear-cut definition of authors being fringe and non-fringe? The publisher, Bear & Company, aka Inner Traditions, publishes books related to several areas of interest, including Earth mysteries. How does the publisher meet your criteria at reliable sources? Simple, I guess. IRS states: “Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered”. Collins’ account is (a) a published source; and (b) in it, plenty of majority and minority views on possible locations of the Garden of Eden, which are found in ancient, medieval, modern, and traditional ethnic accounts, are covered. 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut:
[3]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements."
That's pretty clear, we shouldn't use the Daily Mail stuff.
dougweller (
talk) 09:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the page warrants a mention of the Earthly Paradise at the top of Mt Purgatory in the Divine Comedy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 ( talk) 14:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
This article needs to be present the basic facts with no POV. This is what I mean:
Now the article already states that the source is the Bible. Fact. Done. If you now have your own personal opinions that the Bible is all myth, which is great, but they don't belong here at all. They belong over in the Bible article. Please go there and put them in, and leave the pedantic qualification, upon qualification out of this article. SAE ( talk) 15:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph is unsourced and has other problems. While it is true important human and pre-human fossils have been found in Ethiopia, the statement that "Paleontologists have excavated six million years of life" seems like an exaggeration or oversimplification. I also don't believe that they have concluded "that Ethiopia is the scientific location of human origin", since australopicine fossils have been found in other areas of eastern and southern Africa, too. This paragraph needs revision. Jbartelt9 ( talk) 16:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The Biblical Garden of Eden story has close parallels with other Ancient Near East stories, most of which are polytheistic. I'd be interested to see inclusion of arguments for and against the view that the Biblical story retains some polytheistic elements. Is the Serpent another God? Are the Cherubim with flaming swords (Gen 3:24) Gods? When God says (Gen 3:22) "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever" who is he talking to? (clearly not to Adam or Eve). Who else is he referring to when he says "one of us'? -- Tediouspedant ( talk) 15:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Dougweller seems to continually delete the suggested location of Kharsag / The Rachaya Basin, Lebanon - and is mistakenly claiming Laurence Gardner's mainstream published book "The Origin of God" by Dash House Publishing is inadmissable on Wikipedia on the basis that this is "self-published". He is wrong, they are a reputable publishing house, please recheck and restore as appropriate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 ( talk • contribs)
Bah! I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop!!! Just wait until someone verifiable reviews it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 ( talk) 02:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Romania. In highschool, my teacher for "History of Religions" class(he was 1/4 jewish ...grandmother from mother's side) told us that the correct name is Gan Bar Edhen, with a whispered, almost extinct "r". He gave us 2 versions: Gan Ba'Eden and Ba'Gan Eden, but I don't remember what was the difference between them, it was about 15 years ago. Bigshotnews 08:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Some good people have been reaserching and found that The Garden of Eden is Kashmir Valley This interesting map based on that research: http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bocah anon ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Whoever did the addition of David Rohl and his Eden (edin) theories summarized fairly... right up to the last sentence. They then wrote an opinion. My opinion is that David Rohl's ideas are some of the best I've ever heard (and I've heard a lot) but my opinion does not belong here either.
Please delete the last sentence in the David Rohl/Valley of Tabriz section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit ( talk • contribs) 12:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Dear "scientists" It's totally known where is Pishon and Gihon. Pishon is ancient name for Danube river and I know minimum two middle-age documents where it is axiom:
1. Pseudo-Caesarius - "Caesarii Dialogi" or "Questiones et responsiones". For us is interesting answer of qusetion 110. where he wrote about Slavic tribes who was migrating to Balkan Pennisula "...How again that on the other land S(k)lavs and Danubians, who named Pishones, too." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarius_of_Nazianzus book - http://www.scribd.com/doc/57783059/S-Caesarii-Dialogi-IV-Didymi-Caeci-De-Spiritua-Sancto-Contra-Manichaeos-S-Phoebadii-Contra-Arianos-De-Fide-orthadoxa-De-fide-1836
2. Constantine the Philosopher - "Biography of Despot Stefan Lazarević", the first humanistic book on the Balkan, where he said that Fishon or Pishon is Danube and Gihon is Nil.
How to understand this? Very easy, Adam is symbol of all men in the world, Eden is symbol of human civilization, place where was the easier place to live. On the Danube River was the first neolithic "civilization" of Lepenski Vir, Vinča and Starčevo, Egypt is the second civilizacion and Messopothamy is the third.
Lepenski vir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir Vinča - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture
Man of the Vinča has maybe the first alphabet in the world, which is prove that this is civilization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_symbols — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blexandar ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to make this note, since without it, the current etymological section seems incomplete to me.
According to John Huehnergard's list of Proto-Semitic roots (as featured in [http://www.amazon.com/American-Heritage-Dictionary-English-Language/dp/0395825172 The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]), Eden does mean "delight", deriving from a Central Semitic noun *ġadan, *ġidn "softness, tenderness, verdure" (root ġdn); the phoneme ġ, as usual, became Hebrew /ʿ/ ( ʿayin).
The resemblance of the Hebrew form (if not its ancestor) to Sumerian edin is often raised, and interesting, but doesn't prove much: the Bible is full of linguistic and phonetic punning with terms that don't seem to truly be related, such as connecting Hebel ("Abel") to a homophonous word hebel "vaporous, ephemeral", or Qayin ("Cain") to Eve's comment on his birth, "I have gotten (קניתי qānîtî ) a man with the help of the Lord"-- despite the likely true, quite different, theorized etymologies of their names. Adam Restling ( talk) 11:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
I have no objection to including the Quranic garden, and in fact it would be a good idea, but so far there are no sources. We'll do it in time. PiCo ( talk) 05:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Isn't this a bit long? Why should it be given so much space? Dougweller ( talk) 12:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Is the Garden of Eden mention in the bible, Is it the land of Paradise that Jesus said to one of the two robbers that got crucified with Jesus on mount Calvary? and secondly, is that garden of Eden which some of us said that it to be Paradise, does it exist on earth or is it in Heaven?.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.62.121.67 ( talk) 21:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Editor2020 ( talk) 02:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
hi my question is that in bible there is no menstion about tree of life could you explian to me ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.82.74.166 ( talk) 06:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
If you read the book of EZEKIEL with understanding in some verses EDEN is used as a comparison to both SATAN and cities names in the verses, as a form of destruction to both. It is not implying that Eden is located in Lebenon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.126.210.61 ( talk) 19:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
what you meant by your edit summary Pass a Method talk
I heave reverted the addition of the Quran into the lead sentence. It read "most notably in the Quran and the Book of Genesis but the most notable appearance would be in Genesis. St Anselm ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut:
[5]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements."
Dougweller (
talk) 15:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
According to Edward L. Ochsenschlager: Iraq's Marsh Arabs in the Garden of Eden (University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, 2004) [6] "One of the most prominent theorists on this topic, Juris Zarins, believes the Garden of Eden lies some 200 miles south of Sumer under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and he thinks that the story of Adam and Eve, both in and out of the Garden, is a highly condensed and evocative account of the shift from hunting /gathering to agriculture.*" Dougweller ( talk) 13:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
How correct is it to say that "the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythical"? The Garden figures in the Bible. To state that it is mythical based on works of just a couple of scholars is to indirectly imply that the Holy Scripture is a compilation of myths. Whereas many geographical places and events mentioned in the Bible are confirmed by scholars to be geographically and historically correct. Other scholars believe that Garden of Eden is not only not mythical, but it had actually existed on Earth, since the Bible mentions the names of rivers that up to this day exist. 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Have I uttered a word about Adam and Eve? I commented on the possible physical location of the Garden of Eden and that it is wrong to outrightly state that “most scholars consider it to be mythical”, because many scholars, i.e. specialists in a particular branch of study, distinguished academics (definition by Oxford English Dictionary), suggest the opposite. One of them is John Morris, a creationist according to his convictions, but with a doctorate in geological engineering and with solid experience of teaching and research as professor of geology. Another one is Eric Cline, professor of classics and anthropology with degrees from Dartmouth, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania, who in his book “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible” examines the possibility of the Garden’s physical, not mythical, location. There are many other distinguished scholars who do the same. But I fear that for Wikipedia their credentials will always pale in comparison to those who consider the locations and events described in the Bible as mythical… 71.191.9.3 ( talk) 13:56, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Which area? Biblical Archeology? Except for William Foxwell Albright, none of the authors that you have as “most” scholars who consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological, is a Biblical archeologist. Again, Cline looks into the topic from the position of locating the Garden’s physical, not mythical, site. Cline also refers to many scholars and authors, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Michael Sanders, Gary Greenberg, Joseph Smith, etc. who consider the Garden of Eden to be physical. Yet, this Wikipedia article only cites those authors who consider it mythological. As you can see, the list of their opponents is no smaller or less impressive. 71.191.9.3 ( talk) 15:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I suggest that the phrase "by most scholars" in "[...]the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythological" be removed. References to the garden's mythological location found in the article do not outnumber those whose authors advocate for the garden's physical location. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 20:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
References 21 to 27 are all significant viewpoints by non-fringe scholars, published by reliable sources. If WP:DUE advocates neutrality, as it does, then the phrase "by most scholars" should be changed to a more neutral "by some scholars", given the fact that several other scholars hold opposing views both in terms of their content and their number. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 21:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Agree with removing [21]. Actually this reference existed in the text before my edit. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 21:53, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Well, that the garden is mythological is also a “speculation”. Not to say that except for William Albright, none of the authors that Wikipedia cites as “most” scholars who “consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological”, is an—Biblical—archaeologist. Whereas Juris Zarins is an archaeologist, James Sauer was an archaeologist, David Rohl is an archaeologist (Egyptologist), Gary Greenberg is an archaeologist specializing in ancient history and Biblical studies, and Ephraim Speiser was an archaeologist (Assyriologist). I don’t see how the list of scholars who consider the garden mythological outnumbers or outweighs in terms of content those who consider it physical. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 22:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
[25] needs to be removed, yes, although the author figures in Eric Cline's accounts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 22:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
In addition to Gary Greenberg being a lawyer, he is also a scholar. He serves as president of the Biblical Archaeology Society of New York, is a member of The Society of Biblical Literature, The Egypt Exploration Society, The American Research Center in Egypt, and The Archaeological Institute of America, and has written extensively on ancient history, mythology, and biblical studies. What is so “worrying” about someone holding two or more specializations and how a membership in serious organizations makes an author “fringe”, only Wikipedia editors would know. As one example, Russian composer Alexander Borodin was also a chemist… 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
All references to scholars, who were added as advocates of a hypothesis that the garden had physically existed on Earth, are effectively removed. Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Ephraim Speiser, and, yes, Gary Greenberg as biblical studies expert—all are (some were) scholars in archaeology. It looks like the neutrality, according to WP:DUE, is upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:15, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
In "From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible", scholar Eric Cline (academic, right?) cites all of them as scholars who "have suggested the original Garden of Eden might have been located in or near [Mesopotamia]". Every one of them has suggested its possible physical location: in Persian Gulf, Arabian Peninsula, Iran, Egypt, etc., respectively. Bringing Adam and Eve to the talk on the possible physical location of the Garden is irrelevant. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
If we assume that Greenberg is an amateur historian, let’s then take a look at the backgrounds of “scholars”, whom the article has cited as references to the following clause: “Although the Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars”. Okay, let’s see who the “most scholars” in [16,17,18,19,20] are background-wise: [16] Howard Schwartz is a folklorist and a poet, [17] Arthur George is a mythologist, [18] Jean Delumeau is a Catholic Church researcher, [19] Robert Graves was a poet, classical novelist, and critic, and Raphael Patai was an anthropologist and Jewish folklorist, [20] W.F. Albright was an archaeologist and a biblical scholar.
Thus, out of six (including joint authorship) authors only one, W.F. Albright, is a scholar (i.e. academic) with experience in archaeology. How does this make the rest of them “scholars” and “most” is being left to the discretion of the editors and Wikipedia policies and regulations. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 16:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Done Isambard Kingdom ( talk) 23:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that we are talking about two perspectives on the Garden of Eden. One is that of those who believe that God created man there. The other is that of those who don't believe that. As I've pointed out several sections above, with a source, Zarins is one of the latter. If you read Hamblin, she makes this clear, as does Edward L. Ochsenschlager whom I cite above. Although Rohl thinks he has found historical evidence for the stories in the Bible, he doesn't claim that there was a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were created. Doug Weller ( talk) 11:13, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
No. This discussion has nothing to do with the belief or disbelief in Genesis. This discussion is about an incorrect assertion in the article that “most” scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, and that at the same time there is “some" popular speculation about its possible location. Several scholars (biblical archaeologists) have suggested its physical location. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
The fact that there is a host of authors who consider the Garden of Eden mythical and that there is a host of authors who consider it physical has nothing to do whatsoever with any of those authors’ belief or disbelief in that biblical story. Why? Because none of the scholars representing both camps is basing his or her speculations on their religious beliefs or atheist convictions. The prevailing majority of authors who proposed actual locations of the Garden are scholars trained and experienced in the scientific field of Biblical Archaeology, and not in the field of Theology. Cline is just one of them, and his opinion is one of many, but the fact remains that Wikipedia removed an edit that would tell its readers that there are other scholars who suggested actual locations of the Garden. Neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I get that there's no need to lead this talk astray. It is not about whether the Garden of Eden is a myth or where, as such, it has originated from (by the way, agriculture is not a location). Nor is it about whether the Garden was real or whether authors who suggested its actual locations were religious. This talk is about the Proposed Locations section, which states that “most scholars" consider the Garden mythological, but fails to mention that there are scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Gary Greenberg, and Ephraim Speiser, who proposed the Garden’s physical locations. You chose to remove this edit. Again, neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:10, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Since by "scholars" Wikipedia editors normally mean "academics", as is stated above, please confirm if folklorist and poet Howard Schwartz, mythologist Arthur George, Catholic Church researcher Jean Delumeau, poet and classical novelist Robert Graves, and Jewish folklorist Raphael Patai, are scholars by the same Wikipedia definition. Thank you. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
No, Sir. Zarins has actually argued that the Garden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf, at the spot where Tigris and Euphrates run into the Persian Gulf. This is confirmed by Eric Cline in his work “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible”. This is what Cline wrote: “Juris Zarins, professor of anthropology at Southwest Missouri State University, has suggested that the original location of the Garden of Eden is now underwater, at the head of the Persian Gulf, near Bahrain.”
Myth or no myth, agriculture or metallurgy, religion or atheism—these are not the subjects of this discussion. This discussion is about Wikipedia’s statement about “most scholars” who “consider the Garden to be mythological” and the failure to admit that several other scholars in the true sense of the word have proposed actual locations. Actual—not mythological—geographical locations on Planet Earth.
If we discount Greenberger as a scholar for the sake of compromise, still, most authors whom the article cites as “scholars” who consider “the Garden to be mythological”—except for W.F. Albright—are not scholars in the sense that Wikipedia seems to admit, that is, they are NOT academics. How does this fact make these authors “scholars” and, more so, “most scholars”, only Wikipedia editors would know… 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 01:08, 20 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I've just removed one. There are of course a number of fringe writers making various claims, eg Florida. Do we want fringe views? Doug Weller talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
→* No, Sir. They are not scholars, by definition. Scholar is a specialist in a particular branch of knowledge. Folklorists, mythologists, poets, chroniclers, and novelists cannot be specialists in Biblical Archaeology or Ancient History. Wikipedia policies require that editors cite ALL sources to the debatable issue. Why THE scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, John Morris, and Ephraim Speiser are not being cited as references to support suggestions for the Garden's physical locations? Because if you cite them, it will invalidate your statement that "most" scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, right? Yes, only one, William F. Albright, is a scholar. Thank you, too. 71.191.0.18 ( talk) 15:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian
Previously, in the Proposed Locations section, there for a long time peacefully existed a reference-supported clause suggesting the Armenian Highland or Armenian Plateau as one of the physical locations of the Garden of Eden. All of a sudden, the view of an author cited in the reference displeased some editor and was defined as "fringe" and the clause was removed. Okay... I now attempt to insert the same clause providing three (there are more) reliable references to support this suggested location, namely: 1. Duncan, Joseph E. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden. 1972. University Of Minnesota Press; Minnesota Archive Editions edition (July 6, 1972), pp. 96, 212. 2. Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth. 2006. London-Chicago: British Library-University of Chicago Press, pp. 317-322, and 3. Willcocks, Sir William, Hormuzd Rassam. Mesopotamian Trade. Noah’s Flood: The Garden of Eden, in: The Geographical Journal 35, No. 4 (April 1910), pp. 459-460. All three are non-fringe authors expressing non-fringe views. Yet, some whimsy Wikipedia editor keeps removing this edit together with the cited references. Please attend. 71.191.0.18 ( talk) 15:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian
I had not seen your edit when I added in John Day's references to the proposed location. He is far from a 'fringe' author, and I agree that your edit and mine should be restored. Maureendepresident ( talk) 08:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC) John Day makes the same claim in Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan Bloomsbury Academic, 1 Dec 2002 - Religion - 290 pages see also https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xZv9AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&dq=garden+of+eden+armenia&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=garden%20of%20eden%20armenia&f=false Zion Zenit. These are notable writers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maureendepresident ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
A location of the Garden of Eden in the Armenian Highlands or Armenian Plateau, proposed by several non-fringe authors and supported by several Wikipedia users, is being constantly removed by some bullet-headed Wikipedia editor with no explanation of the reason for removal. The academic sources supporting the physical location of the Garden of Eden in the Armenian Highlands are as follows: 1. Zevit, Ziony. What Really Happened in the Garden of Eden? 2013. Yale University Press, p. 111. 2. Day, John. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan. 2002. Sheffield Academic Press, p. 30. 3. Duncan, Joseph E. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden. 1972. University Of Minnesota Press, pp. 96, 212. 4. Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth. 2006. London-Chicago: British Library-University of Chicago Press, pp. 317-322. 5. Willcocks, Sir William, Hormuzd Rassam. Mesopotamian Trade. Noah’s Flood: The Garden of Eden, in: The Geographical Journal 35, No. 4 (April 1910), pp. 459-460.
There are many more academic sources suggesting the same location.-- 71.191.1.192 ( talk) 00:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)Davidian
Day, John. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, pp. 30-31.
“Its [Garden of Eden’s] location at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers suggests either Armenia (at their western end) or the Persian Gulf (at their eastern end). Two important considerations suggest that Eden was located rather at the other end, in Armenia. First, as Albright pointed out, the river flowing from Eden became four head (-waters). Secondly, Eden is set on a mountain. This does not fit the Persian Gulf at all, but coheres with Armenia perfectly, since its mountainous terrain is particularly noteworthy. Interestingly, it was on one of the mountains of Armenia (Ararat, i.e. Urartu) that Noah’s Ark landed. When the Mesopotamian flood hero Utnapishtim is said to be at pî nârâti, ‘the mouth of the rivers’, it is natural to suppose that this is at the Armenian source of the Tigris and Euphrates. This also coheres with the fact that Gilgamesh, in seeking Utnapishtim, crosses Mt Mashu—that is, Mt Masios [Massis-higher peak of Ararat] in Armenia.”
Duncan, Joseph. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden, p. 212.
“Another location given for paradise was Armenia. This conception was based partly on the observation that streams usually arose in mountains, like those of Armenia, as well as on the assumption that Noah’s ark had not been carried far when it came to rest on Mount Ararat in Armenia. Both Pererius and Lapide had suggested Armenia and Mesopotamia as logical locations for Eden and paradise. Johann Vorstius, maintaining that Scripture clearly stated that the great river arose in Eden itself, also contended that Eden and paradise must be in Armenia. One of the most complete of the earlier arguments for an Armenian paradise was offered by Carver in a tract published in 1666. Because the Tigris and Euphrates were two of the four rivers flowing from the great river, they must have a common source, he reasoned. There Eden and paradise must be, since the great river arose in Eden. He found the site of Eden in Armenia Major, on the south side of Mount Taurus.”
Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth, pp. 317-322.
General survey on the cartographies of the Garden of Eden with a mention of the Armenian location of paradise: “True, the Flood had deprived paradise of its original beauty and most of its internal features, but its site survived. Instead of a common source described by ancient writers, in Calmet’s time the Tigris and Euphrates sprang from different places within Armenia. The sources of the other two rivers of paradise were also in Armenia: the Pishon corresponded to the river Phasis (which flowed into the Black Sea) and Gishon to the river Araxes (which flowed into the Caspian Sea).”
Scafi, Alessandro. Finishing the unfinished: Paradise in Fausto da Longiano’s vernacular translation of Piccolomini’s Cosmographia (1544), pp. 5-6.
“Fausto noted, however, that if the Pison and the Gihon were not to be identified with the Ganges and the Nile, there were other two possible candidates, the Araxes and the Cyrus, both located in Armenia. As a possible location, Fausto proposed Armenia, a region which in the sixteenth century included the area between the upper Euphrates and Lake Urmia, the Black Sea and the Syrian desert. The identity of two of the four rivers named in Genesis, the Tigris and the Euphrates, was uncontroversial, and both rivers were known to rise in Armenia. The more problematic Gihon and Pishon could be identified amongst the local rivers (for Fausto, the Araxes and the Cyrus). The idea of a possible Armenian location for paradise was taken up by later thinkers. But Piccolomini also considered the possibility that the human race derived from Armenia, where Noah’s Ark came to rest, once the waters of the Flood had receded (Genesis 8.1-15). So, even though all men originally descended from Adam, it was from the mountains of Armenia that Noah and his family, along with every type of living creature, multiplied on the earth. However, to locate Eden in Armenia, it was also necessary to distance it in the distant past. Paradise must have disappeared, so that it no longer belonged to contemporary geography; and the catastrophic event which had caused this disappearance could well have been the Flood, which, as the Bible reported, had covered the entire surface of the earth (Genesis 7.17-24).”-- 71.191.1.192 ( talk) 21:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)Davidian
In the Proposed Location section it said "Pre-Christian Jews did not consider the Garden of Eden to be a physical place." I have removed this assertion. I looked at the reference and could find no such statement nor external support or reference to Jewish sources lending to that idea. I have never heard of this before. This does not mean that it is untrue, but it does not mean that it is, either. So I have removed it. If someone can site more than a title and a link and provide the chapter/page which itself cites primary pre-christian jewish sources, then we can add it back in. Jyg ( talk) 18:39, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
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@
Mrh1325: To clarify that only secular scholars would consider the Garden of Eden mythological
. Many Catholics consider it metaphorical too.
Origin myths also have particular styles and purposes and mythological doesn't always mean "false", although I also recommend reading
Talk:Evolution/FAQ in this case. Thanks, —
Paleo
Neonate – 21:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Aeduh and 81.34.80.42: I think that this view is considered fringe. If kept, the reference to the book should be at the end of paragraph (ideally using {{ cite book}}. Let's see what other editors think. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 07:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Material removed — Paleo Neonate – 16:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia entry Scholar, a scholar is “a person who pursues academic and intellectual activities, particularly those that develop expertise in an area of study”. In this article, the sentence “The Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars” is absolutely misleading, because the referenced works that follow this flawed statement are from people, none of whom is a scholar in Biblical Archaeology. Wikipedia cites: [10] Jon Douglas Levenson, who is a Hebrew Bible theologian; [11] Howard Schwartz, a folklorist and poet; [12] Arthur George, a mythologist; and [13] Robert Graves, a poet and classical novelist, and Raphael Patai, a Jewish folklorist. Wikipedia then disparagingly notes: “Among those who consider it to have been real”. Well, “THOSE” who consider the Garden to be real are many, they are certainly not the minority as compared to THOSE who consider it to be mythological. These two sentences need to be changed at least by stating that there are two camps of scholars and related academics: one camp considers the Garden mythological and the other real. 98.231.157.169 ( talk) 16:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)Davidian
Why were religious traditions segregated? There is the Middle-Eastern mention of Eden or Edin & then there is the European mention of Idunn & her orchard. I remember long ago that these subjects were linked & that the page was inclusive & hyper-linked to either subject.
I'm calling vandalism on the part of Abrahamics against European Pagans. This has happened before in history where Christians vandalized Norse/Germanic Art & there was recorded violence that was initiated by the Christians/Romans against the Norse/Germanic. I have also experienced personally vandalism of my own property which was of a religious attribution as well as a scholarly one by my own Abrahamic adherent parents. They destroyed 2 pendants of mine...a Tiwaz & a Valknut. They called me Satanic & a devil worshiper....despite the fact that Tyr/Odin/etc are all fighting against treacherous family/friends, monsters, evil sorcerers, & giants...& are brave enough to face their own ends at Ragnarok.
So don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there is precedent in my experience to religious bigotry that leads to actual destruction of property & harassment of person. [there is more to my own story with my family & friends but that's too abundant to list].
This is why I'm going to find a way to link the Middle-Eastern Abrahamic/Akkadian Eden/Edin with the European Idunn. I'm just probing the waters here before I do so, so I can manage my time & "prime" the page.
True Premise ( talk) 05:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Where is the evidence for the garden of eden? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.251.14 ( talk) 19:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the number of malformed and/or fake citations I see in this article. In particular:
The problem with each of these is that they are all (very suspiciously) on the very last page of each book. I can't read any of these pages on Google Books - I suspect that's because they are blank. As a result, I cannot verify the claim that "most scholars" consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological. But quite apart from the content, the citation system is unacceptable. St Anselm ( talk) 18:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I'd say, if that is the case, i.e. that there really was there such a place where they walked and where God the creator talked to them and later expelled them from, that that GoE is definitely not mythological. It is real. Is that accurate? Thanks, warshy (¥¥) 21:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Am I the only one who can't figure out what this clause in § Proposed locations is trying to say? If it had just been added I'd delete it outright, but its stuck around for two years so maybe I'm missing something. "At its source of the rivers" was added in January of 2019 with an unclear summary, and the "include:" bit was later added, making the phrasing even more confusing (the sentence continues as if there hadn't been a colon, before detouring back to mention Armenia in more of the manner you'd expect after a colon). -- Tamzin (they/she) | o toki tawa mi. 11:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Recently, this article got vandalized where someone wrote in the lead section image description "The Garden of Eden is in South America...". Can this article be protected? - S L A Y T H E - ( talk) 23:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I do not believe an "atemporal fall" is actually a widely held view within Eastern Orthodoxy. The cited authors in question are actually either almost all fringe or publicly condemned heretics according to Eastern Orthodoxy. David Bentley Hart and Fr. John Behr both promote women clergy, universalism, Sophianism, and ahistorical Old Testament (all views which are extremely fringe, if not outright against the dogmas of Eastern Orthodoxy). Bulgakov is one of the original advocates of Sophianism which has been publicly condemned by Patriarch Peter of Krutitsy. Origen and his teachings have been anathematized both in the 2nd and 3rd Council of Constantinople. The only Eastern Orthodox saint listed at all is St. Maximos the Confessor, but the citation given for him [8] https://issuu.com/jacobswell/docs/jacob_s_well_spring_2022_online_1_ is actually a tertiary source which is not representing St. Maximos directly but rather representing the author's own hybridization of views of St. Maximos and the other authors mentioned here for congruency with evolutionary science.
For positive evidence of Eastern Orthodox belief in a temporal fall, the Byzantine calendar actually assumes time is present at the beginning of creation with Adam. The Eastern Orthodox church therefore believes Adam was created in 5509 BC and not from some atemporal eternity. ACatNamedMittens ( talk) 18:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
The Eastern Orthodox church therefore believes Adam was created in 5509 BC: we don't believe any editor. We only believe WP:RS. Anyway, thinking that Eastern Orthodox churches necessarily support Young Earth Creationism is quite a stretch. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
In a series of recent edits, user @ IncandescentBliss has introduced the following sentences (most important to me is the one in bold):
Scholars note Canaanite parallels and tend to think that the Eden narrative drew from the aspects of the Solomon’s Temple and Jerusalem and that the garden was modeled on Persian royal gardens.
In support of this statement, the last sentence is cited to Mario Liverani: Israel's History and the History of Israel (Routledge, 2007), p. 238, who writes as follows:
[R]oyal gardens are the model for the ‘garden of Eden’ where the biblical story of Adam and Eve is set (Gen. 2.4–3.24). The word paradise (Heb. pardēs, Bab. pardēsu ‘park’) is of Persian origin (pairidaēza ‘enclosure’), and the Persians were responsible for the spread of this kind of enclosed garden. Thus, the Eden narrative should be assigned to the Babylonia of the Persian age.
There is just one big problem with this assertion, however: the Book of Genesis never uses the Hebrew word pardēs in its account of the Garden of Eden. As outlined in this and this sources, the Genesis account uses the word gan to refer to the Garden of Eden, not pardēs. The word pardēs only appears three times in the Hebrew Bible: the passages are Canticles 4:13, Ecclesiastes 2:5 and Nehemiah 2:8. None of these verses are part of Genesis.
While Mario Liverani is a respectable historian of the ancient Near East, he is not an expert in Biblical Hebrew linguistics, and I seriously doubt that his statement on this topic can be considered representative of the consensus of Hebrew Bible scholars. Potatín5 ( talk) 00:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
According to Mario Liverani, the Eden narrative should be assigned to the Babylonia of the Persian age.Hope this helps, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 01:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The non-P portion of Genesis 1–11 is written in CBH(p. 365, notice that Hendel identifies the text of Genesis 2-3 as part of the non-P portion). That is, the text of Genesis 2-3 is written in the Classical Hebrew of the pre-exilic period, not in the Late Biblical Hebrew of the Persian era as Liverani claimed (based on a flawed analysis). Potatín5 ( talk) 17:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
a rectangular garden divided by paths or waterways into four symmetrical sections; cf. Gen 2:10–14) does not necessarily mean that this part of its narrative dates to the Persian period'. It seems unlikely that other scholars should not have considered this, right? What do other sources say on this specific subject? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 19:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
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There is a traditional Christian belief which claims that Jesus was in the Garden of Eden at the time of Eve's innocence. This belief has been represented in the paintings of Hieronymus Bosch. Since it is a fairly unusual belief, it ought to be researched more in depth in order to find out where it came from. [1] ADM ( talk) 16:47, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I've heard that theory too. Essentially, when God talks to Adam and Eve in Genesis 2, and when God walks in the garden in Genesis 3, "God" is actually Jesus (since, according to most Christian beliefs, Jesus is God). See particularly Genesis 3:3 -
"Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day" (GEN 3:3 NIV)
-- Hendrixjoseph ( talk) 23:02, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Lord is a title of power, Lord God is meant as a different person to Lord Jesus. Slightnostalgia ( talk) 13:04, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
I propose a link to Gobekli Tepe as a suspected location, even if it's only in the "See also" section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobekli_Tepe
Dianaramadani ( talk) 01:22, 17 March 2009 (UTC) The only thing in our article relevant is a couple of links, but see [2] - this is so tenuous it just floats away. No one is seriously claiming this so far as I can tell. dougweller ( talk) 05:59, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
I agree, however this is a city, there were many fourth race cities around the dawn of the bible. The true location is Elazig in Turkey. There is a dried lake bed of green water, there you will find eden is indeed true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asfd8888 ( talk • contribs) 22:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)
Author Andrew Collins in his work "Gobekli Tepe: Genesis of the Gods. The Temple of the Watchers and the Discovery of Eden" adduces a convincing argument that Garden of Eden existed in the Armenian Highlands (or Armenian Plateau), in the Plain of Mush of ancient region of Taron in Greater Armenia, that is north of Gobekli Tepe and west of the Lake Van, and not in Gobekli Tepe. In this context, Collins uses extensively the correct toponyms, such as "historical Armenia", "Greater Armenia", "Armenian Highlands", "Armenian region of Taron", etc. in which, based on his findings, the Garden may have existed. The fact that the Plain of Mush is now located in Turkey as a result of mass murders and forced deportation of the entire Armenian population during the Armenian Genocide in Ottoman Turkey, doesn't change the historically known toponyms, such as Armenian Highlands, or the fact of existence of many Armenian sanctuaries, such as the Monastery of Yeghrdut, which Collins particularly emphasizes as being--possibly--an important landmark that came to existence as a result of Armenian Biblical traditions that placed the Garden of Eden close to that monastery. Therefore, at least as one possible site for the Garden, the Armenian Highlands ought to be mentioned in the article with reference to the reliable source, i.e Collins' account.
71.191.12.221 (
talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian
71.191.12.221 (
talk) 18:25, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
And how one can characterize—or stigmatize, rather—an author or a publisher as being “fringe”? Is there a clear-cut definition of authors being fringe and non-fringe? The publisher, Bear & Company, aka Inner Traditions, publishes books related to several areas of interest, including Earth mysteries. How does the publisher meet your criteria at reliable sources? Simple, I guess. IRS states: “Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered”. Collins’ account is (a) a published source; and (b) in it, plenty of majority and minority views on possible locations of the Garden of Eden, which are found in ancient, medieval, modern, and traditional ethnic accounts, are covered. 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 19:34, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut:
[3]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements."
That's pretty clear, we shouldn't use the Daily Mail stuff.
dougweller (
talk) 09:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
I think the page warrants a mention of the Earthly Paradise at the top of Mt Purgatory in the Divine Comedy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 ( talk) 14:05, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
This article needs to be present the basic facts with no POV. This is what I mean:
Now the article already states that the source is the Bible. Fact. Done. If you now have your own personal opinions that the Bible is all myth, which is great, but they don't belong here at all. They belong over in the Bible article. Please go there and put them in, and leave the pedantic qualification, upon qualification out of this article. SAE ( talk) 15:57, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph is unsourced and has other problems. While it is true important human and pre-human fossils have been found in Ethiopia, the statement that "Paleontologists have excavated six million years of life" seems like an exaggeration or oversimplification. I also don't believe that they have concluded "that Ethiopia is the scientific location of human origin", since australopicine fossils have been found in other areas of eastern and southern Africa, too. This paragraph needs revision. Jbartelt9 ( talk) 16:42, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
The Biblical Garden of Eden story has close parallels with other Ancient Near East stories, most of which are polytheistic. I'd be interested to see inclusion of arguments for and against the view that the Biblical story retains some polytheistic elements. Is the Serpent another God? Are the Cherubim with flaming swords (Gen 3:24) Gods? When God says (Gen 3:22) "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever" who is he talking to? (clearly not to Adam or Eve). Who else is he referring to when he says "one of us'? -- Tediouspedant ( talk) 15:15, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
Dougweller seems to continually delete the suggested location of Kharsag / The Rachaya Basin, Lebanon - and is mistakenly claiming Laurence Gardner's mainstream published book "The Origin of God" by Dash House Publishing is inadmissable on Wikipedia on the basis that this is "self-published". He is wrong, they are a reputable publishing house, please recheck and restore as appropriate.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 ( talk • contribs)
Bah! I'll get you next time Penelope Pitstop!!! Just wait until someone verifiable reviews it... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.111.32.44 ( talk) 02:18, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm from Romania. In highschool, my teacher for "History of Religions" class(he was 1/4 jewish ...grandmother from mother's side) told us that the correct name is Gan Bar Edhen, with a whispered, almost extinct "r". He gave us 2 versions: Gan Ba'Eden and Ba'Gan Eden, but I don't remember what was the difference between them, it was about 15 years ago. Bigshotnews 08:41, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Some good people have been reaserching and found that The Garden of Eden is Kashmir Valley This interesting map based on that research: http://www.jesus-kashmir-tomb.com/sitebuilder/images/Map_to_Graves-691x418.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bocah anon ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 25 January 2011 (UTC)
Whoever did the addition of David Rohl and his Eden (edin) theories summarized fairly... right up to the last sentence. They then wrote an opinion. My opinion is that David Rohl's ideas are some of the best I've ever heard (and I've heard a lot) but my opinion does not belong here either.
Please delete the last sentence in the David Rohl/Valley of Tabriz section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit ( talk • contribs) 12:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Dear "scientists" It's totally known where is Pishon and Gihon. Pishon is ancient name for Danube river and I know minimum two middle-age documents where it is axiom:
1. Pseudo-Caesarius - "Caesarii Dialogi" or "Questiones et responsiones". For us is interesting answer of qusetion 110. where he wrote about Slavic tribes who was migrating to Balkan Pennisula "...How again that on the other land S(k)lavs and Danubians, who named Pishones, too." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarius_of_Nazianzus book - http://www.scribd.com/doc/57783059/S-Caesarii-Dialogi-IV-Didymi-Caeci-De-Spiritua-Sancto-Contra-Manichaeos-S-Phoebadii-Contra-Arianos-De-Fide-orthadoxa-De-fide-1836
2. Constantine the Philosopher - "Biography of Despot Stefan Lazarević", the first humanistic book on the Balkan, where he said that Fishon or Pishon is Danube and Gihon is Nil.
How to understand this? Very easy, Adam is symbol of all men in the world, Eden is symbol of human civilization, place where was the easier place to live. On the Danube River was the first neolithic "civilization" of Lepenski Vir, Vinča and Starčevo, Egypt is the second civilizacion and Messopothamy is the third.
Lepenski vir - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir Vinča - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_culture
Man of the Vinča has maybe the first alphabet in the world, which is prove that this is civilization: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin%C4%8Da_symbols — Preceding unsigned comment added by Blexandar ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Just wanted to make this note, since without it, the current etymological section seems incomplete to me.
According to John Huehnergard's list of Proto-Semitic roots (as featured in [http://www.amazon.com/American-Heritage-Dictionary-English-Language/dp/0395825172 The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language]), Eden does mean "delight", deriving from a Central Semitic noun *ġadan, *ġidn "softness, tenderness, verdure" (root ġdn); the phoneme ġ, as usual, became Hebrew /ʿ/ ( ʿayin).
The resemblance of the Hebrew form (if not its ancestor) to Sumerian edin is often raised, and interesting, but doesn't prove much: the Bible is full of linguistic and phonetic punning with terms that don't seem to truly be related, such as connecting Hebel ("Abel") to a homophonous word hebel "vaporous, ephemeral", or Qayin ("Cain") to Eve's comment on his birth, "I have gotten (קניתי qānîtî ) a man with the help of the Lord"-- despite the likely true, quite different, theorized etymologies of their names. Adam Restling ( talk) 11:38, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
I have no objection to including the Quranic garden, and in fact it would be a good idea, but so far there are no sources. We'll do it in time. PiCo ( talk) 05:58, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
Isn't this a bit long? Why should it be given so much space? Dougweller ( talk) 12:34, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
Is the Garden of Eden mention in the bible, Is it the land of Paradise that Jesus said to one of the two robbers that got crucified with Jesus on mount Calvary? and secondly, is that garden of Eden which some of us said that it to be Paradise, does it exist on earth or is it in Heaven?.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.62.121.67 ( talk) 21:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
21 The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. 22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.” Editor2020 ( talk) 02:35, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
hi my question is that in bible there is no menstion about tree of life could you explian to me ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.82.74.166 ( talk) 06:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
If you read the book of EZEKIEL with understanding in some verses EDEN is used as a comparison to both SATAN and cities names in the verses, as a form of destruction to both. It is not implying that Eden is located in Lebenon — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.126.210.61 ( talk) 19:29, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
what you meant by your edit summary Pass a Method talk
I heave reverted the addition of the Quran into the lead sentence. It read "most notably in the Quran and the Book of Genesis but the most notable appearance would be in Genesis. St Anselm ( talk) 22:17, 24 December 2013 (UTC)
"From the Deutsches Archaeologisches Institut:
[5]: On February 28th the Daily Mail published an article by Tom Cox, in which Prof. Dr. Klaus Schmidt, leader of the Göbekli Tepe excavations, is cited as follows: "Göbekli Tepe is a temple in Eden". On the basis of this, the author formulates several conclusions about the biblical paradise, Adam and Eve and other events connected to the Book of Genesis in the Old Testament. Several German- and Turkish-language newspapers and radio stations of german and turkish language have picked up on the contents of the article since its publication.
"Tom Cox" or "Tom Knox" is a pseudonym of the British journalist Sean Thomas, who used the article to get publicity for his thriller "Genesis Secret", which is due to appear in March in English and simultaneously in German. Since Sean Thomas is using a falsified version of an interview with Klaus Schmidt made in fall 2006, he presents a distortion of the scientific work of the German Archaeological Institute.
The German Archaeological Institute (DAI) distances itself from these statements and reserves the right to take legal action against further dissemination of the story in connection with the work of the DAI at Göbekli Tepe. Klaus Schmidt neither in an interview nor on any other occasion made the above mentioned statements."
Dougweller (
talk) 15:22, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
According to Edward L. Ochsenschlager: Iraq's Marsh Arabs in the Garden of Eden (University of Pennsylvania Museum of Archaeology and Anthropology, 2004) [6] "One of the most prominent theorists on this topic, Juris Zarins, believes the Garden of Eden lies some 200 miles south of Sumer under the waters of the Persian Gulf, and he thinks that the story of Adam and Eve, both in and out of the Garden, is a highly condensed and evocative account of the shift from hunting /gathering to agriculture.*" Dougweller ( talk) 13:33, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
How correct is it to say that "the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythical"? The Garden figures in the Bible. To state that it is mythical based on works of just a couple of scholars is to indirectly imply that the Holy Scripture is a compilation of myths. Whereas many geographical places and events mentioned in the Bible are confirmed by scholars to be geographically and historically correct. Other scholars believe that Garden of Eden is not only not mythical, but it had actually existed on Earth, since the Bible mentions the names of rivers that up to this day exist. 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)Davidian 71.191.12.221 ( talk) 23:41, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Have I uttered a word about Adam and Eve? I commented on the possible physical location of the Garden of Eden and that it is wrong to outrightly state that “most scholars consider it to be mythical”, because many scholars, i.e. specialists in a particular branch of study, distinguished academics (definition by Oxford English Dictionary), suggest the opposite. One of them is John Morris, a creationist according to his convictions, but with a doctorate in geological engineering and with solid experience of teaching and research as professor of geology. Another one is Eric Cline, professor of classics and anthropology with degrees from Dartmouth, Yale, and the University of Pennsylvania, who in his book “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible” examines the possibility of the Garden’s physical, not mythical, location. There are many other distinguished scholars who do the same. But I fear that for Wikipedia their credentials will always pale in comparison to those who consider the locations and events described in the Bible as mythical… 71.191.9.3 ( talk) 13:56, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Which area? Biblical Archeology? Except for William Foxwell Albright, none of the authors that you have as “most” scholars who consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological, is a Biblical archeologist. Again, Cline looks into the topic from the position of locating the Garden’s physical, not mythical, site. Cline also refers to many scholars and authors, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Michael Sanders, Gary Greenberg, Joseph Smith, etc. who consider the Garden of Eden to be physical. Yet, this Wikipedia article only cites those authors who consider it mythological. As you can see, the list of their opponents is no smaller or less impressive. 71.191.9.3 ( talk) 15:07, 21 October 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I suggest that the phrase "by most scholars" in "[...]the Garden of Eden is considered by most scholars to be mythological" be removed. References to the garden's mythological location found in the article do not outnumber those whose authors advocate for the garden's physical location. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 20:48, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
References 21 to 27 are all significant viewpoints by non-fringe scholars, published by reliable sources. If WP:DUE advocates neutrality, as it does, then the phrase "by most scholars" should be changed to a more neutral "by some scholars", given the fact that several other scholars hold opposing views both in terms of their content and their number. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 21:10, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Agree with removing [21]. Actually this reference existed in the text before my edit. 71.191.12.193 ( talk) 21:53, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Well, that the garden is mythological is also a “speculation”. Not to say that except for William Albright, none of the authors that Wikipedia cites as “most” scholars who “consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological”, is an—Biblical—archaeologist. Whereas Juris Zarins is an archaeologist, James Sauer was an archaeologist, David Rohl is an archaeologist (Egyptologist), Gary Greenberg is an archaeologist specializing in ancient history and Biblical studies, and Ephraim Speiser was an archaeologist (Assyriologist). I don’t see how the list of scholars who consider the garden mythological outnumbers or outweighs in terms of content those who consider it physical. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 22:11, 6 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
[25] needs to be removed, yes, although the author figures in Eric Cline's accounts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 22:26, 6 November 2015 (UTC)
In addition to Gary Greenberg being a lawyer, he is also a scholar. He serves as president of the Biblical Archaeology Society of New York, is a member of The Society of Biblical Literature, The Egypt Exploration Society, The American Research Center in Egypt, and The Archaeological Institute of America, and has written extensively on ancient history, mythology, and biblical studies. What is so “worrying” about someone holding two or more specializations and how a membership in serious organizations makes an author “fringe”, only Wikipedia editors would know. As one example, Russian composer Alexander Borodin was also a chemist… 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:03, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
All references to scholars, who were added as advocates of a hypothesis that the garden had physically existed on Earth, are effectively removed. Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Ephraim Speiser, and, yes, Gary Greenberg as biblical studies expert—all are (some were) scholars in archaeology. It looks like the neutrality, according to WP:DUE, is upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:15, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
In "From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible", scholar Eric Cline (academic, right?) cites all of them as scholars who "have suggested the original Garden of Eden might have been located in or near [Mesopotamia]". Every one of them has suggested its possible physical location: in Persian Gulf, Arabian Peninsula, Iran, Egypt, etc., respectively. Bringing Adam and Eve to the talk on the possible physical location of the Garden is irrelevant. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:49, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
If we assume that Greenberg is an amateur historian, let’s then take a look at the backgrounds of “scholars”, whom the article has cited as references to the following clause: “Although the Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars”. Okay, let’s see who the “most scholars” in [16,17,18,19,20] are background-wise: [16] Howard Schwartz is a folklorist and a poet, [17] Arthur George is a mythologist, [18] Jean Delumeau is a Catholic Church researcher, [19] Robert Graves was a poet, classical novelist, and critic, and Raphael Patai was an anthropologist and Jewish folklorist, [20] W.F. Albright was an archaeologist and a biblical scholar.
Thus, out of six (including joint authorship) authors only one, W.F. Albright, is a scholar (i.e. academic) with experience in archaeology. How does this make the rest of them “scholars” and “most” is being left to the discretion of the editors and Wikipedia policies and regulations. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 16:07, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Done Isambard Kingdom ( talk) 23:35, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that we are talking about two perspectives on the Garden of Eden. One is that of those who believe that God created man there. The other is that of those who don't believe that. As I've pointed out several sections above, with a source, Zarins is one of the latter. If you read Hamblin, she makes this clear, as does Edward L. Ochsenschlager whom I cite above. Although Rohl thinks he has found historical evidence for the stories in the Bible, he doesn't claim that there was a Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were created. Doug Weller ( talk) 11:13, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
No. This discussion has nothing to do with the belief or disbelief in Genesis. This discussion is about an incorrect assertion in the article that “most” scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, and that at the same time there is “some" popular speculation about its possible location. Several scholars (biblical archaeologists) have suggested its physical location. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 19:37, 7 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
The fact that there is a host of authors who consider the Garden of Eden mythical and that there is a host of authors who consider it physical has nothing to do whatsoever with any of those authors’ belief or disbelief in that biblical story. Why? Because none of the scholars representing both camps is basing his or her speculations on their religious beliefs or atheist convictions. The prevailing majority of authors who proposed actual locations of the Garden are scholars trained and experienced in the scientific field of Biblical Archaeology, and not in the field of Theology. Cline is just one of them, and his opinion is one of many, but the fact remains that Wikipedia removed an edit that would tell its readers that there are other scholars who suggested actual locations of the Garden. Neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I get that there's no need to lead this talk astray. It is not about whether the Garden of Eden is a myth or where, as such, it has originated from (by the way, agriculture is not a location). Nor is it about whether the Garden was real or whether authors who suggested its actual locations were religious. This talk is about the Proposed Locations section, which states that “most scholars" consider the Garden mythological, but fails to mention that there are scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, Gary Greenberg, and Ephraim Speiser, who proposed the Garden’s physical locations. You chose to remove this edit. Again, neutrality, according to WP:DUE, has been effectively upset. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:10, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
Since by "scholars" Wikipedia editors normally mean "academics", as is stated above, please confirm if folklorist and poet Howard Schwartz, mythologist Arthur George, Catholic Church researcher Jean Delumeau, poet and classical novelist Robert Graves, and Jewish folklorist Raphael Patai, are scholars by the same Wikipedia definition. Thank you. 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 15:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
No, Sir. Zarins has actually argued that the Garden was situated at the head of the Persian Gulf, at the spot where Tigris and Euphrates run into the Persian Gulf. This is confirmed by Eric Cline in his work “From Eden to Exile: Unraveling Mysteries of the Bible”. This is what Cline wrote: “Juris Zarins, professor of anthropology at Southwest Missouri State University, has suggested that the original location of the Garden of Eden is now underwater, at the head of the Persian Gulf, near Bahrain.”
Myth or no myth, agriculture or metallurgy, religion or atheism—these are not the subjects of this discussion. This discussion is about Wikipedia’s statement about “most scholars” who “consider the Garden to be mythological” and the failure to admit that several other scholars in the true sense of the word have proposed actual locations. Actual—not mythological—geographical locations on Planet Earth.
If we discount Greenberger as a scholar for the sake of compromise, still, most authors whom the article cites as “scholars” who consider “the Garden to be mythological”—except for W.F. Albright—are not scholars in the sense that Wikipedia seems to admit, that is, they are NOT academics. How does this fact make these authors “scholars” and, more so, “most scholars”, only Wikipedia editors would know… 71.191.0.159 ( talk) 01:08, 20 November 2015 (UTC)Davidian
I've just removed one. There are of course a number of fringe writers making various claims, eg Florida. Do we want fringe views? Doug Weller talk 10:08, 15 February 2016 (UTC)
→* No, Sir. They are not scholars, by definition. Scholar is a specialist in a particular branch of knowledge. Folklorists, mythologists, poets, chroniclers, and novelists cannot be specialists in Biblical Archaeology or Ancient History. Wikipedia policies require that editors cite ALL sources to the debatable issue. Why THE scholars, such as Juris Zarins, James Sauer, David Rohl, John Morris, and Ephraim Speiser are not being cited as references to support suggestions for the Garden's physical locations? Because if you cite them, it will invalidate your statement that "most" scholars consider the Garden to be mythological, right? Yes, only one, William F. Albright, is a scholar. Thank you, too. 71.191.0.18 ( talk) 15:38, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian
Previously, in the Proposed Locations section, there for a long time peacefully existed a reference-supported clause suggesting the Armenian Highland or Armenian Plateau as one of the physical locations of the Garden of Eden. All of a sudden, the view of an author cited in the reference displeased some editor and was defined as "fringe" and the clause was removed. Okay... I now attempt to insert the same clause providing three (there are more) reliable references to support this suggested location, namely: 1. Duncan, Joseph E. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden. 1972. University Of Minnesota Press; Minnesota Archive Editions edition (July 6, 1972), pp. 96, 212. 2. Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth. 2006. London-Chicago: British Library-University of Chicago Press, pp. 317-322, and 3. Willcocks, Sir William, Hormuzd Rassam. Mesopotamian Trade. Noah’s Flood: The Garden of Eden, in: The Geographical Journal 35, No. 4 (April 1910), pp. 459-460. All three are non-fringe authors expressing non-fringe views. Yet, some whimsy Wikipedia editor keeps removing this edit together with the cited references. Please attend. 71.191.0.18 ( talk) 15:59, 16 February 2016 (UTC)Davidian
I had not seen your edit when I added in John Day's references to the proposed location. He is far from a 'fringe' author, and I agree that your edit and mine should be restored. Maureendepresident ( talk) 08:42, 4 March 2016 (UTC) John Day makes the same claim in Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan Bloomsbury Academic, 1 Dec 2002 - Religion - 290 pages see also https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=xZv9AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA111&dq=garden+of+eden+armenia&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=garden%20of%20eden%20armenia&f=false Zion Zenit. These are notable writers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maureendepresident ( talk • contribs) 08:57, 4 March 2016 (UTC)
A location of the Garden of Eden in the Armenian Highlands or Armenian Plateau, proposed by several non-fringe authors and supported by several Wikipedia users, is being constantly removed by some bullet-headed Wikipedia editor with no explanation of the reason for removal. The academic sources supporting the physical location of the Garden of Eden in the Armenian Highlands are as follows: 1. Zevit, Ziony. What Really Happened in the Garden of Eden? 2013. Yale University Press, p. 111. 2. Day, John. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan. 2002. Sheffield Academic Press, p. 30. 3. Duncan, Joseph E. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden. 1972. University Of Minnesota Press, pp. 96, 212. 4. Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth. 2006. London-Chicago: British Library-University of Chicago Press, pp. 317-322. 5. Willcocks, Sir William, Hormuzd Rassam. Mesopotamian Trade. Noah’s Flood: The Garden of Eden, in: The Geographical Journal 35, No. 4 (April 1910), pp. 459-460.
There are many more academic sources suggesting the same location.-- 71.191.1.192 ( talk) 00:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)Davidian
Day, John. Yahweh and the Gods and Goddesses of Canaan, pp. 30-31.
“Its [Garden of Eden’s] location at the source of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers suggests either Armenia (at their western end) or the Persian Gulf (at their eastern end). Two important considerations suggest that Eden was located rather at the other end, in Armenia. First, as Albright pointed out, the river flowing from Eden became four head (-waters). Secondly, Eden is set on a mountain. This does not fit the Persian Gulf at all, but coheres with Armenia perfectly, since its mountainous terrain is particularly noteworthy. Interestingly, it was on one of the mountains of Armenia (Ararat, i.e. Urartu) that Noah’s Ark landed. When the Mesopotamian flood hero Utnapishtim is said to be at pî nârâti, ‘the mouth of the rivers’, it is natural to suppose that this is at the Armenian source of the Tigris and Euphrates. This also coheres with the fact that Gilgamesh, in seeking Utnapishtim, crosses Mt Mashu—that is, Mt Masios [Massis-higher peak of Ararat] in Armenia.”
Duncan, Joseph. Milton’s Earthly Paradise: A Historical Study of Eden, p. 212.
“Another location given for paradise was Armenia. This conception was based partly on the observation that streams usually arose in mountains, like those of Armenia, as well as on the assumption that Noah’s ark had not been carried far when it came to rest on Mount Ararat in Armenia. Both Pererius and Lapide had suggested Armenia and Mesopotamia as logical locations for Eden and paradise. Johann Vorstius, maintaining that Scripture clearly stated that the great river arose in Eden itself, also contended that Eden and paradise must be in Armenia. One of the most complete of the earlier arguments for an Armenian paradise was offered by Carver in a tract published in 1666. Because the Tigris and Euphrates were two of the four rivers flowing from the great river, they must have a common source, he reasoned. There Eden and paradise must be, since the great river arose in Eden. He found the site of Eden in Armenia Major, on the south side of Mount Taurus.”
Scafi, Alessandro. Return to the Sources: Paradise in Armenia, in: Mapping Paradise: A History of Heaven on Earth, pp. 317-322.
General survey on the cartographies of the Garden of Eden with a mention of the Armenian location of paradise: “True, the Flood had deprived paradise of its original beauty and most of its internal features, but its site survived. Instead of a common source described by ancient writers, in Calmet’s time the Tigris and Euphrates sprang from different places within Armenia. The sources of the other two rivers of paradise were also in Armenia: the Pishon corresponded to the river Phasis (which flowed into the Black Sea) and Gishon to the river Araxes (which flowed into the Caspian Sea).”
Scafi, Alessandro. Finishing the unfinished: Paradise in Fausto da Longiano’s vernacular translation of Piccolomini’s Cosmographia (1544), pp. 5-6.
“Fausto noted, however, that if the Pison and the Gihon were not to be identified with the Ganges and the Nile, there were other two possible candidates, the Araxes and the Cyrus, both located in Armenia. As a possible location, Fausto proposed Armenia, a region which in the sixteenth century included the area between the upper Euphrates and Lake Urmia, the Black Sea and the Syrian desert. The identity of two of the four rivers named in Genesis, the Tigris and the Euphrates, was uncontroversial, and both rivers were known to rise in Armenia. The more problematic Gihon and Pishon could be identified amongst the local rivers (for Fausto, the Araxes and the Cyrus). The idea of a possible Armenian location for paradise was taken up by later thinkers. But Piccolomini also considered the possibility that the human race derived from Armenia, where Noah’s Ark came to rest, once the waters of the Flood had receded (Genesis 8.1-15). So, even though all men originally descended from Adam, it was from the mountains of Armenia that Noah and his family, along with every type of living creature, multiplied on the earth. However, to locate Eden in Armenia, it was also necessary to distance it in the distant past. Paradise must have disappeared, so that it no longer belonged to contemporary geography; and the catastrophic event which had caused this disappearance could well have been the Flood, which, as the Bible reported, had covered the entire surface of the earth (Genesis 7.17-24).”-- 71.191.1.192 ( talk) 21:13, 14 June 2016 (UTC)Davidian
In the Proposed Location section it said "Pre-Christian Jews did not consider the Garden of Eden to be a physical place." I have removed this assertion. I looked at the reference and could find no such statement nor external support or reference to Jewish sources lending to that idea. I have never heard of this before. This does not mean that it is untrue, but it does not mean that it is, either. So I have removed it. If someone can site more than a title and a link and provide the chapter/page which itself cites primary pre-christian jewish sources, then we can add it back in. Jyg ( talk) 18:39, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
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@
Mrh1325: To clarify that only secular scholars would consider the Garden of Eden mythological
. Many Catholics consider it metaphorical too.
Origin myths also have particular styles and purposes and mythological doesn't always mean "false", although I also recommend reading
Talk:Evolution/FAQ in this case. Thanks, —
Paleo
Neonate – 21:20, 6 November 2017 (UTC)
@ Aeduh and 81.34.80.42: I think that this view is considered fringe. If kept, the reference to the book should be at the end of paragraph (ideally using {{ cite book}}. Let's see what other editors think. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 07:05, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Material removed — Paleo Neonate – 16:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia entry Scholar, a scholar is “a person who pursues academic and intellectual activities, particularly those that develop expertise in an area of study”. In this article, the sentence “The Garden of Eden is considered to be mythological by most scholars” is absolutely misleading, because the referenced works that follow this flawed statement are from people, none of whom is a scholar in Biblical Archaeology. Wikipedia cites: [10] Jon Douglas Levenson, who is a Hebrew Bible theologian; [11] Howard Schwartz, a folklorist and poet; [12] Arthur George, a mythologist; and [13] Robert Graves, a poet and classical novelist, and Raphael Patai, a Jewish folklorist. Wikipedia then disparagingly notes: “Among those who consider it to have been real”. Well, “THOSE” who consider the Garden to be real are many, they are certainly not the minority as compared to THOSE who consider it to be mythological. These two sentences need to be changed at least by stating that there are two camps of scholars and related academics: one camp considers the Garden mythological and the other real. 98.231.157.169 ( talk) 16:43, 12 April 2020 (UTC)Davidian
Why were religious traditions segregated? There is the Middle-Eastern mention of Eden or Edin & then there is the European mention of Idunn & her orchard. I remember long ago that these subjects were linked & that the page was inclusive & hyper-linked to either subject.
I'm calling vandalism on the part of Abrahamics against European Pagans. This has happened before in history where Christians vandalized Norse/Germanic Art & there was recorded violence that was initiated by the Christians/Romans against the Norse/Germanic. I have also experienced personally vandalism of my own property which was of a religious attribution as well as a scholarly one by my own Abrahamic adherent parents. They destroyed 2 pendants of mine...a Tiwaz & a Valknut. They called me Satanic & a devil worshiper....despite the fact that Tyr/Odin/etc are all fighting against treacherous family/friends, monsters, evil sorcerers, & giants...& are brave enough to face their own ends at Ragnarok.
So don't get me wrong. I'm just saying there is precedent in my experience to religious bigotry that leads to actual destruction of property & harassment of person. [there is more to my own story with my family & friends but that's too abundant to list].
This is why I'm going to find a way to link the Middle-Eastern Abrahamic/Akkadian Eden/Edin with the European Idunn. I'm just probing the waters here before I do so, so I can manage my time & "prime" the page.
True Premise ( talk) 05:21, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Where is the evidence for the garden of eden? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.110.251.14 ( talk) 19:57, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the number of malformed and/or fake citations I see in this article. In particular:
The problem with each of these is that they are all (very suspiciously) on the very last page of each book. I can't read any of these pages on Google Books - I suspect that's because they are blank. As a result, I cannot verify the claim that "most scholars" consider the Garden of Eden to be mythological. But quite apart from the content, the citation system is unacceptable. St Anselm ( talk) 18:59, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
I'd say, if that is the case, i.e. that there really was there such a place where they walked and where God the creator talked to them and later expelled them from, that that GoE is definitely not mythological. It is real. Is that accurate? Thanks, warshy (¥¥) 21:01, 9 March 2021 (UTC)
Am I the only one who can't figure out what this clause in § Proposed locations is trying to say? If it had just been added I'd delete it outright, but its stuck around for two years so maybe I'm missing something. "At its source of the rivers" was added in January of 2019 with an unclear summary, and the "include:" bit was later added, making the phrasing even more confusing (the sentence continues as if there hadn't been a colon, before detouring back to mention Armenia in more of the manner you'd expect after a colon). -- Tamzin (they/she) | o toki tawa mi. 11:19, 12 April 2021 (UTC)
Recently, this article got vandalized where someone wrote in the lead section image description "The Garden of Eden is in South America...". Can this article be protected? - S L A Y T H E - ( talk) 23:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
I do not believe an "atemporal fall" is actually a widely held view within Eastern Orthodoxy. The cited authors in question are actually either almost all fringe or publicly condemned heretics according to Eastern Orthodoxy. David Bentley Hart and Fr. John Behr both promote women clergy, universalism, Sophianism, and ahistorical Old Testament (all views which are extremely fringe, if not outright against the dogmas of Eastern Orthodoxy). Bulgakov is one of the original advocates of Sophianism which has been publicly condemned by Patriarch Peter of Krutitsy. Origen and his teachings have been anathematized both in the 2nd and 3rd Council of Constantinople. The only Eastern Orthodox saint listed at all is St. Maximos the Confessor, but the citation given for him [8] https://issuu.com/jacobswell/docs/jacob_s_well_spring_2022_online_1_ is actually a tertiary source which is not representing St. Maximos directly but rather representing the author's own hybridization of views of St. Maximos and the other authors mentioned here for congruency with evolutionary science.
For positive evidence of Eastern Orthodox belief in a temporal fall, the Byzantine calendar actually assumes time is present at the beginning of creation with Adam. The Eastern Orthodox church therefore believes Adam was created in 5509 BC and not from some atemporal eternity. ACatNamedMittens ( talk) 18:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
The Eastern Orthodox church therefore believes Adam was created in 5509 BC: we don't believe any editor. We only believe WP:RS. Anyway, thinking that Eastern Orthodox churches necessarily support Young Earth Creationism is quite a stretch. tgeorgescu ( talk) 01:47, 30 October 2023 (UTC)
In a series of recent edits, user @ IncandescentBliss has introduced the following sentences (most important to me is the one in bold):
Scholars note Canaanite parallels and tend to think that the Eden narrative drew from the aspects of the Solomon’s Temple and Jerusalem and that the garden was modeled on Persian royal gardens.
In support of this statement, the last sentence is cited to Mario Liverani: Israel's History and the History of Israel (Routledge, 2007), p. 238, who writes as follows:
[R]oyal gardens are the model for the ‘garden of Eden’ where the biblical story of Adam and Eve is set (Gen. 2.4–3.24). The word paradise (Heb. pardēs, Bab. pardēsu ‘park’) is of Persian origin (pairidaēza ‘enclosure’), and the Persians were responsible for the spread of this kind of enclosed garden. Thus, the Eden narrative should be assigned to the Babylonia of the Persian age.
There is just one big problem with this assertion, however: the Book of Genesis never uses the Hebrew word pardēs in its account of the Garden of Eden. As outlined in this and this sources, the Genesis account uses the word gan to refer to the Garden of Eden, not pardēs. The word pardēs only appears three times in the Hebrew Bible: the passages are Canticles 4:13, Ecclesiastes 2:5 and Nehemiah 2:8. None of these verses are part of Genesis.
While Mario Liverani is a respectable historian of the ancient Near East, he is not an expert in Biblical Hebrew linguistics, and I seriously doubt that his statement on this topic can be considered representative of the consensus of Hebrew Bible scholars. Potatín5 ( talk) 00:01, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
According to Mario Liverani, the Eden narrative should be assigned to the Babylonia of the Persian age.Hope this helps, ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 01:14, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
The non-P portion of Genesis 1–11 is written in CBH(p. 365, notice that Hendel identifies the text of Genesis 2-3 as part of the non-P portion). That is, the text of Genesis 2-3 is written in the Classical Hebrew of the pre-exilic period, not in the Late Biblical Hebrew of the Persian era as Liverani claimed (based on a flawed analysis). Potatín5 ( talk) 17:54, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
a rectangular garden divided by paths or waterways into four symmetrical sections; cf. Gen 2:10–14) does not necessarily mean that this part of its narrative dates to the Persian period'. It seems unlikely that other scholars should not have considered this, right? What do other sources say on this specific subject? ☿ Apaugasma ( talk ☉) 19:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)