This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Francia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Instead of arguing over what modern states emerged from the old Frankish Empire, why not simply list the immediate successor states, which seems to be the convention elsewhere in Wikipedia. The article on the Western Roman Empire lists Francia as a successor state, but the Francia article breaks the convention - User:Drasai 12 July 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Recently I removed a line saying that out of the Frankish empire France and Germany arose. The line itself is correct, as they eventually did.I removed it as it is unfair against other, teritorially smaller, nations.
The line was then again added by User:Srnec, his explanation: "France and Germany did indeed rise out of the ashes of the so-called Frankish Empire". To which I added many other nations who, in that case, had the same right to be mentioned. This edit however, was removed, by again User:Srnec.His explanation this time: "Removing false information".
I've made a image to make it absolutely clear, that this information was right in every way.In fact, 16 modern day countries "arose from the ashes of the Frankish Realm". The message I'm presenting is very clear, either:
It's your choice Srnec.
Oh I know my history Srnec, you apparently don't as you've said:
"Other nations, like Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Andorra, and the Czech Republic were not created out of the Frankish state (Merovingian or Carolingian). They became independent nations much later, long after the Caroingian ashes had been swept away."
May I remind you that nearly every country in Europe gained its independence BEFORE Germany.By the way, have you ever heard of Middle Francia? Apparently not. Rex 17:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There was no German nation before 1871. There were Germans, there was German culture and German language but NO German nation. There were at times thousands of little fiefs, kindoms, etc. who waged war on eachother, the was no unified Holy Roman Empire, in fact the Holy Roman Empire (which you seem to use as a synonym with medieval Germany, which is wrong) was bullied around by nearly every country in Europe for its entire existance. Rex 17:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some pretty strange things on wikipedia, and I have to say your remark saying that the governing system in the Holy Roman Empire is like that of Italy and Canada now, definately fall into that catagory. Rex 18:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Read my damn comments, for heaven's sake! I said it was not the same! Srnec 18:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh please, "Germany was the largest and most significant of the kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire". I know what you're yting to say. Rex 18:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
No you do not. Most provinces (fiefs) within the Empire were fiefs of the German, Italian, or Burgunidan king, which, from the early eleventh century was the same person. Only a few places were fiefs directly of the Emperor. I was merely stating that by the end of the Middle Ages, only the German royal title mattered, for most of Italy and much of Burgundy was no longer attached to the Empire. Most of the Low Countries was part of Germany. Srnec 00:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Rex 10:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Germany was a constituent kingdom of the Holy Roman Empire. This couldn't be more clear. Everything else you say has little bearing on the debate. It was "far less cohesive than the emerging modern states around it," but it this is past the time period under discussion. It was definitely a state during the Middle Ages, in any sense of the word that matters for that period. I have never equated Germany and the Empire. Go to the articles History of Germany and Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation and acquaint yourself with some relevant historical fact. Srnec 03:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Pardon the interruption, but now that this is turning into an edit war again, I would just like to say that Srnec's version is obviously the more accurate wording, not that that is going to stop any of this. Carry on! Adam Bishop 18:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
No, acknowledging that you are wrong here might just do it though. I believe we had this discussion here, at Old windy bears ... the discussion there seems to have stalled in my favour. Rex 08:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why should he acknowledge that when he is not wrong. None of the following emerged from the Frankish Kingdom/Empire:
Str1977 (smile back) 11:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Some small corrections, Luxembourg received independence from the Netherlands, not Germany, and the reasons for the Belgian revolution were economical and not triggered by opressive dutch rule and it seems you're views on the Austrian Empire (1804-1867) seem somewhat strange to me.
But anyway, you've missed the point. Because what are we claiming here I ask you? Rex 11:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Str1977 (smile back) 12:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I will not go on to debate the nonsense which you create around the Belgian independance, I merely suggest you read the wikipedia article on the matter: Belgian Revolution.
As for the claim I made "somewhere", I ask you: Why would I be and speak Frisian as you claim (in the post above this one) I also ask you, who on this here earth speak Low Frankish languages? I will not go on as a totally futile discussion on which modern people have the most Frankish herritage ... as it would sound like a weird Nazi myth.
I suggest you read a discussion on the talkpage of User:Oldwindybear, which is about something similar. Rex 15:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Germanus,
BTW, you have way way violated the 3RR rule and I have duly reported you. Cheers anyway, Str1977 (smile back) 16:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Rex 17:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Now stop bothering me! Str1977 (smile back) 17:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
" The kingdom was repeatedly divided among several kings; the division of 843 after the death of Louis the Pious turned out to be permanent, eventually giving birth to the nations of France and Germany."
I sincerely object to the use of " eventually", because "EVENTUALLY" these kingdoms gave birth to various nations. (as was the conclusion on User:Oldwindybears talkpage) Rex 13:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
RFM? Rex
Request For Mediation. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC) The mediation has been accepted I haven't anything from it since. Rex 17:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- As this site defines it, Roman or Romans usually refers to "A thing or person of or from the city of Rome." - There is evidence that the heads of the Roman Catholic Church exercised control over the Duchy of Rome, after it split off from the Byzantine Empire whose power over the region was weakened through the encroachments of the Lombards, forcing the bishops of rome to take on larger responsibilities in defending Rome from said Lombards, which would eventually lead to references of Pontiff-elected Roman dukes, who were perhaps successors of the original dukes of Rome. Add in the territory Pepin donated, which unlike the forged Constantine , was confirmed by both himself, his son, and multiple others, wouldn't that mean that when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne, King of the Franks, as 'Emperor of the Romans' in 800, he would have the authority to do so? It's hardly the old Roman Empire, but it is Rome.
Recently, User:Ulritz has added the following templates to the topp of the page;{{Histoy of France}} and {{History of Germany}}. These templates were already included at the bottom of the page, along with evey other national template for Germany and France by far aren't the only modern nations with historical ties to the Frankish Empire, this user refuses to debate other wikipedians on talk pages, and chooses editwarring instead, he tries to justify his edits by his edit summaries which, as I have experienced, contain either a very strange explanation ... or an insult. This time User:Ulritz refered to a "mainstream theory", and I wonder, User:Ulritz, what are you talking about? Rex 10:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
History doesn't deal with today, Germany and France did not exist at the time of the Frankish empire. This is just plain nationalism. You have absolutely no point whatoever. Rex 10:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)'
I think this article could be improved by adding a bit in the Society in Frankish Gaul section about the improved treatment and increased freedom of women. In my eyes 21:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Apparently since the original article was split into The Franks and Frankish Empire, there has been little concern for the division. The Frankish Empire, for example, is treated extensively on both pages.
For the moment I've added a notice to each of the two articles referring to the other ones. If this doesn't work, I would suggest merging them again. -- SteveMcCluskey 12:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I just posted on the Franks talk page about this. I don't know the history of this article (was it split after Franks became a featured article?). But it is standard practice on Wikipedia to have different articles for empires from people. One is a political narrative, the other is a socio history (language, art, etc..). The problem with the Franks article is that it has almost nothing on the Frankish people: Language, Art, Literature, etc.. but that doesn't mean it should be merged, it just needs to be expanded and the political narrative of the empire aggregated here. -- Stbalbach 03:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The section on Frankish society should stay where it is, because the Frankish Empire had many people who were not Franks (Celts, Avars, Italians,etc.). "Franks" and "Frankish Empire" should not merge for that same reason.
Why is this article named "Frankish Empire" not only does it only even potentially apply from 800-843, meaning it can only apply to about 15% of the state's history, I'm not certain its even appropriate then, Charlemagne uses variations of the title, Imperator Augustus Romanum gubernans Imperium Rex Francorum et Longobardorum necnon modo Dominator Saxonorum, "August Emperor of the Romans governing the Empire, and not in the same way King of the Franks and Lombards, Subjugator of the Saxons" meaning that while he's identifying himself as an Emperor, and that he governs an Empire its the Empire of the Romans, not of the Franks, Louis puts Renovatio Regni Francorum on his coins, once again showing the Franks were a Kingdom, even if they were ruled by an Emperor. Francia seems to be becoming the standard academic term, and it was even used contemporaneously by Fredegar among other, so that might be acceptable, or "Frankish Kingdom" but "Frankish Empire" followed by the unsourced Latin translation (where is this from, was it ever used or even referenced at the time?) doesn't make any sense to me.
Ethan Hoddes 04:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I support the move for the reasons given above. — AldeBaer 13:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The article has been moved and the double redirects (only) have been fixed. Regarding PMA's point that Frankish Empire more probably means Carolingian Empire, I'll have a look at those links over the weekend (unless someone beats me to it). Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I´ve just found this discussion and I´m a little bit confused. Why do You call it "Francia"? German and French historians call it "Fraenkisches Reich" (german) or "Royaumes Francs" (french). In latin the name was "Regnum Francorum", which was used in documents. And both german and french historians use this for the whole time from Chlodwig/Chlovis till the end about 900 A.D. In Germany and France "Francia" is name for that region in 9./10.th century which was called "´Neustria" before but not fot the whole empire. 84.166.250.95 ( talk) 18:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
"At his [Charlemagne's] death, the Carolingian Empire was larger in terms of land mass than the original Roman Empire."
Eh? Francia was certainly not larger than the entire empire, or even the original western half. It was larger than the disintegrated remnants of the western empire at the traditional date of its "fall" in 476, but that's hardly representative of the empire for most of its history. And since the author brings up the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in the next sentence, he/she does seem to be talking about the empire's entire history. I would simply delete this sentence, but I feel it would disrupt the whole structure of the paragraph.
A. Parrot ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, makes sense now. A. Parrot ( talk) 20:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
French or German? -- 71.106.173.110 ( talk) 08:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
It depends who we call the "Franks"... Frankish empire was nothing like a nation united under a same people, culture, customs or language; it was just a political entity, a territory ruled by a nobility with Frankish roots.
If we call "Franks" the original people of Frankish language that were based in the area of nowadays Belgium/southern Netherland/Rhine area (that should be the definition in my opinion: there is no reason to call the romance-speaking peoples of the big parts of the empire as being Franks, since they were just ruled by them; they were not even having been "frankishified", but retained their Gallo-roman culture intact), then the Franks were only a small minority inside their huge empire, big parts of its territory was in fact of latin culture (what is now "France") and not of Germanic culture (what are now Flanders, Neterlands or Germany).
If by "Frank", we mean all the peoples that lived inside the empire, then the cultures and languages hugely varies during times (in the original Frankish realms the Frankish-speaking peoples were probably a majority; but as soon as the territory exepended to romance-speaking areas, they became a minority); and varies in areas (some romance-speaking areas: modern France, Catalunia, Spanish marches, northern and central Italy; germanic-speaking areas: Modern day Flanders, Netherlands, Germany).
I think it would be good to avoid spreading confusion among minds to remind that the original Frankish people (Frankish-speaking) and the peoples contained in the whole empire are two different things. So I suggest to modify that sentence which seem to me completly wrong:
" (Kingdom of the Franks"), Frankish Realm or occasionally Frankland, was the territory inhabited and ruled by the Franks from the 3rd to the 10th century"
It is true that we speak about the territory ruled by the Franks, but certainly not "inhabited" by Frankish peoples; since most of its inhabitants were not of Frankish culture. To avoid confusion it would be good also to remind that modern day France language and culture (and the big majority of its peoples) does not descend from Frankish culture (despite its name could let think it is the case, especially in German "Frankreich"), but from Gallo-Roman one. It is a good thing to separate political empires to cultural/ethnical areas. the political entity that we call France might derive from the Frankish empire; but its culture/people does not derives from Frankish culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 ( talk) 11:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
{{Infobox Former Country |native_name = Imperium Francorum |conventional_long_name = Frankish Empire |common_name = Francia | |continent = Europe |region = |country = France |era = Middle Ages |government_type = [[Hereditary monarchy]] |status = [[Kingdom]] later an [[Empire]] |year_start = 3rd century |year_end = 987 |event_pre = |date_pre = |event_start = |date_start = |event_end = |date_end = |p1 = |flag_p1 = |p2 = |flag_p2 = |p3 = |flag_p3 = |s1 = |flag_s1 = |image_flag = |image_coat = Héraldique_meuble_Fleur_de_lys_lissée.svg |symbol_type = [[Fleur-de-lis#King Clovis I|Fleur-de-lis]] |image_map = Franks_expansion.gif |image_map_caption = Frankish expansion. | |capital = Aachen |national_motto = |national_anthem = |common_languages = [[Old Frankish]], [[Latin]] |religion = [[Roman Catholic]] |currency = |leader1 = [[Clovis I]] |year_leader1 = 481-511 |leader2 = [[Louis V]] (Last) |year_leader2 = 986-987 |title_leader = [[List of Frankish kings|King]] & later [[Emperor]] }}
The term "imperium Francorum" was not official, or commonly used. Nor is "Frankish Empire" all that common the secondary literature. There was no Frankish kingdom in the 3rd century and nothing was disestablished in 987. Aachen was not the "capital" of the kingdom/empire throughout this period (or ever, in one sense). The Old Frankish language was not widely spoken in the Empire. The monarchy was at least quasi-elective throughout the period, depite several dynasts' best efforts. Louis V was not the last anything and there is a discrepancy between the dates of Clovis I and the claim that Francia was established in the 3rd century. The whole thing is wrong. — Srnec ( talk) 01:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
{{helpme}} The animation of Frankish expansion does not appear. -- Mistakefinder ( talk) 04:04, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Done
I've made some changes to the Infobox, I hope that now this inofobox will stay now and that in continuation to what User:Paedia has said above, it's place in the article will be resolved for good. -- Oren neu dag ( talk) 17:01, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
It would be good if the article had section about the Eastern vassal states. This theme would deserve an own section. I think this subject has not entirely discussed yet. For instance:
I was surprised to find the name "Frankia" in this and one or two related articles. I've never seen it before, and the article by that title in Wikipedia describes a form of bacteria. There's no source for this form, which was apparently introduced to the article without discussion or citation by Smec on July 17, 2006. Googling it, the only other uses of "Frankia" for "Francia" seem to be based on this article. I don't find it in Merriam-Webster Online, the Oxford English Dictionary, LaRousse, or Robert.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this spelling has been used, but it doesn't appear ever to have been a regular form. "Francia" is a Latin name, and would never have been written with a "k" in that language, French, or English. If "Frankia" has never been generally used, then it probably doesn't belong in the article. Unless some source for this as a legitimate historical variant can be found, I suggest removing it from this and other articles that ought to read, "Francia." P Aculeius ( talk) 01:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I am looking for the source of that edit: [7]. I especially interested in the first two sentences: The first time that Francia is named is in the Panegyrici Latini in the early 4th century. It is the area north and east of the Rhine, roughly in the triangle Utrecht - Bielefeld - Bonn. Could somebody help me with that? Igor Filippov ( talk) 15:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Currently Frankish Empire redirects here, even though there is a separate article called Carolingian Empire? This is absurd, Frankish Empire and Carolingian Empire are the same thing. Post-Carolingian Empire has a separate article anyway. I guess this article is named 'Francia' as a compromise between 'Frankish Kingdom' and 'Frankish Empire', but this naming is very unusual. It's certainly the least usual of the three choices. Even more, Francia mainly referred to Austrasia and Neustria. And then on the side of the article we have the infobox titled differently than the page: "Frankish Empire" (which was now founded in the 3rd century?). It is all an incredible mess. If we are starting with the 3rd century, why not merge this page with the Franks page? I know it is a wikipedia-practice for the Germanic tribes to have an article separate from the articles on their kingdoms, but this would solve the naming problem of this article (Frankish Kingdom or Frankish Empire) without compromising with wikipedia-specific 'Francia', and most importantly we would have an article with continuity between Merovingians and Carolingians, which must be the main purpose of this article. The Frankish 'realms' are traditionally categorized by dynasties. So, we should have Franks as the main article ( Frankish Kingdom would redirect to it), and then separate articles on the Merovingians and the Carolingians. This would be in accordance with the already existing separate article Carolingian Empire (preferably named Frankish Empire). Carolingian/Frankish Empire, of course, has to have a separate article. Francia should be a disambiguation page, or a separate article describing the shifting usage of the name. Zhmr ( talk) 16:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
well, I would not agree it is "absurd", it is just one possible solution. Being faced with the necessity to divide centuries of gradual historical change into discrete Wikipedia changes, every choice will have advantages and disadvantages. The Carolingian Empire page is clearly introduced "The Carolingian Empire (800–888) was the final stage in the history of the early medieval realm of the Franks," establishing that it is fully a sub-topic to this one. Now while there will always be a wide array of reasonable choices, and there is ultimately no single correct approach, of course it is "wikipedia-practice" to reflect common usage in scholarly literature as much as possible. The aim should be to prevent any sort of approach or nomenclature that seems bizarre to a specialist visiting this page. You seem to argue that this is the case here.
Your suggestion of merging "Francia" and "Franks" has some merit (and iirc has been brought up numerous times over the years). I would accept as likely that there will be very few scholarly sources that treat "the Franks" and "the realm of the Franks" as two distinct topics. Indeed, merely by saying "the Franks" you are most likely to mean "the polity of the Franks, i.e. Francia". I am not convinced, otoh, that "Frankish Empire" is simply synonymous with "Carolingian Empire", i.e. that the term "empire" does not apply to the Merowingian period. Technically, I grant you, there was no "emperor" prior to Charlemagne, but " empire" has a narrow and a wider meaning (e.g. there could never have been a Persian or Assyrian Empire if we insist that empires only qualify as empires if their ruler has been crowned by the pope). If you want to make a particular case relating to terminology, you will need to present a survey of terminology as used in scholarly literature. I.e. I am perfectly willing to be convinced that no serious scholar will ever apply the term "empire" to the Merowingian period, but for this I will need to be presented with a convenient survey of literature. -- dab (𒁳) 09:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Seems to still be an issue dab. The article is really surprisingly poor for such a well known topic, and the really strange name choice is one obvious reason, while another is that obviously whenever there are too many articles about very similar topics, quality is always lower. I would support a merge, and/or a renaming.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about something from what I've read in various articles. Was the Kingdom of the Lombards ever officially part of the Kingdom of the Franks after Charlemagne's conquest of it or was it merely in personal union with the Kingdom of the Franks under Charlemagne? Emperor001 ( talk) 04:38, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Francia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
* References: Although a number of primary and secondary sources are listed there is only one explicit reference in the whole article.
laurens (
talk) 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
|
Last edited at 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Francia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:16, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Francia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Newroderick895: The source added in this edit only talks about how 17th century French people interpreted what they perceived to be a Merovingian symbol. The author does not appear to claim to represent modern thinking on the meaning of the bees.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:08, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's correct to describe Francia as a hereditary monarchy. Einhardt's biography of Charlemagne mentions that the Merovingians were "chosen" as kings before the Carolingians. That plus the manner in which Charlemagne and Carloman were selected as co-kings over different regions indicates that Francia was technically an elective monarchy that they simply made de facto hereditary by always being elected, not unlike the Habsburgs and the Holy Roman Empire. Emperor001 ( talk) 11:59, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus not to move Francia to Kingdom of the Franks at this time, and no consensus to move the disambiguation page, per the discussion below. If necessary, please feel free to reintroduce a request to determine whether there is consensus to move this page to Frankish Kingdom. Dekimasu よ! 02:40, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
– Francia is also the country of France in many different languages. It can cause ambiguity between the Frankish state and the modern country of France. 50.198.101.209 ( talk) 18:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I opposed kingdom of the franks but, thinking about it, Frankish kingom is a much more common name. Francia is used in the context of East Francia and West Francia, and in other contexts as well, but not so much when it comes to this earlier period to be the title of the article. I thought Francia was useful to have readers understand where East Francia and West Francia come from but, reading about it, i just don't see books on the Franks using this term more than Frankish kindgom. Readers will understand anyway, but I think it's time for a more common name to prevail.
Barjimoa ( talk) 15:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Why is it part of the History of France series? Either it is both the history of Germany and France or it is left out completely. Adrianolusius ( talk) 18:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
So the various names listed for Francia in the opening include Francia/Kingdom of the Franks/Regnum Francorum/Frankish Kingdom/Frankland/Frankish Empire.
Should France not be included? I mean France is literally just the French rendering of Francia (and given that we use France in English and not Francia the English rendering as well) and given it being by far the longest-lasting rendering of the name it's at least as notable as the Latin rendering of Kingdom of the Franks. 14.2.37.113 ( talk) 05:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
How do you pronounce Francia in English? Frankia or Frantsia? Or are both pronounciations allowable/common? If not, there should be an IPA spelling in brackets. 2001:4BC9:A42:3BA6:85CF:976:7394:BC23 ( talk) 10:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
vif12vf I see there is an edit war about the official language in the infobox. I suggest part of the problem here is that there was no such thing as an official language of Francia. It is however clearly correct that the only widely used written language was Latin. So I suggest we can delete that category or else use Latin. Your edsum makes no sense to me Latin would only have been gradually adopted after they converted, and frankish remained their mother tongue!
Clearly the empire had no single mother tongue and clearly mother tongues are not the same as official languages. It is also very clear that Latin was not gradually adopted but rather a language which was already widely used in this area. I think the list of commonly used languages should also include Latin and Frankish?
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 08:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Francia article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-4 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Instead of arguing over what modern states emerged from the old Frankish Empire, why not simply list the immediate successor states, which seems to be the convention elsewhere in Wikipedia. The article on the Western Roman Empire lists Francia as a successor state, but the Francia article breaks the convention - User:Drasai 12 July 2012 —Preceding undated comment added 23:50, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Recently I removed a line saying that out of the Frankish empire France and Germany arose. The line itself is correct, as they eventually did.I removed it as it is unfair against other, teritorially smaller, nations.
The line was then again added by User:Srnec, his explanation: "France and Germany did indeed rise out of the ashes of the so-called Frankish Empire". To which I added many other nations who, in that case, had the same right to be mentioned. This edit however, was removed, by again User:Srnec.His explanation this time: "Removing false information".
I've made a image to make it absolutely clear, that this information was right in every way.In fact, 16 modern day countries "arose from the ashes of the Frankish Realm". The message I'm presenting is very clear, either:
It's your choice Srnec.
Oh I know my history Srnec, you apparently don't as you've said:
"Other nations, like Belgium, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Andorra, and the Czech Republic were not created out of the Frankish state (Merovingian or Carolingian). They became independent nations much later, long after the Caroingian ashes had been swept away."
May I remind you that nearly every country in Europe gained its independence BEFORE Germany.By the way, have you ever heard of Middle Francia? Apparently not. Rex 17:40, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
There was no German nation before 1871. There were Germans, there was German culture and German language but NO German nation. There were at times thousands of little fiefs, kindoms, etc. who waged war on eachother, the was no unified Holy Roman Empire, in fact the Holy Roman Empire (which you seem to use as a synonym with medieval Germany, which is wrong) was bullied around by nearly every country in Europe for its entire existance. Rex 17:51, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have some pretty strange things on wikipedia, and I have to say your remark saying that the governing system in the Holy Roman Empire is like that of Italy and Canada now, definately fall into that catagory. Rex 18:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Read my damn comments, for heaven's sake! I said it was not the same! Srnec 18:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh please, "Germany was the largest and most significant of the kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire". I know what you're yting to say. Rex 18:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
No you do not. Most provinces (fiefs) within the Empire were fiefs of the German, Italian, or Burgunidan king, which, from the early eleventh century was the same person. Only a few places were fiefs directly of the Emperor. I was merely stating that by the end of the Middle Ages, only the German royal title mattered, for most of Italy and much of Burgundy was no longer attached to the Empire. Most of the Low Countries was part of Germany. Srnec 00:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Rex 10:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Germany was a constituent kingdom of the Holy Roman Empire. This couldn't be more clear. Everything else you say has little bearing on the debate. It was "far less cohesive than the emerging modern states around it," but it this is past the time period under discussion. It was definitely a state during the Middle Ages, in any sense of the word that matters for that period. I have never equated Germany and the Empire. Go to the articles History of Germany and Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation and acquaint yourself with some relevant historical fact. Srnec 03:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Pardon the interruption, but now that this is turning into an edit war again, I would just like to say that Srnec's version is obviously the more accurate wording, not that that is going to stop any of this. Carry on! Adam Bishop 18:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
No, acknowledging that you are wrong here might just do it though. I believe we had this discussion here, at Old windy bears ... the discussion there seems to have stalled in my favour. Rex 08:57, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Why should he acknowledge that when he is not wrong. None of the following emerged from the Frankish Kingdom/Empire:
Str1977 (smile back) 11:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Some small corrections, Luxembourg received independence from the Netherlands, not Germany, and the reasons for the Belgian revolution were economical and not triggered by opressive dutch rule and it seems you're views on the Austrian Empire (1804-1867) seem somewhat strange to me.
But anyway, you've missed the point. Because what are we claiming here I ask you? Rex 11:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Str1977 (smile back) 12:09, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
I will not go on to debate the nonsense which you create around the Belgian independance, I merely suggest you read the wikipedia article on the matter: Belgian Revolution.
As for the claim I made "somewhere", I ask you: Why would I be and speak Frisian as you claim (in the post above this one) I also ask you, who on this here earth speak Low Frankish languages? I will not go on as a totally futile discussion on which modern people have the most Frankish herritage ... as it would sound like a weird Nazi myth.
I suggest you read a discussion on the talkpage of User:Oldwindybear, which is about something similar. Rex 15:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Germanus,
BTW, you have way way violated the 3RR rule and I have duly reported you. Cheers anyway, Str1977 (smile back) 16:06, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Rex 17:33, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Now stop bothering me! Str1977 (smile back) 17:47, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
" The kingdom was repeatedly divided among several kings; the division of 843 after the death of Louis the Pious turned out to be permanent, eventually giving birth to the nations of France and Germany."
I sincerely object to the use of " eventually", because "EVENTUALLY" these kingdoms gave birth to various nations. (as was the conclusion on User:Oldwindybears talkpage) Rex 13:22, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
RFM? Rex
Request For Mediation. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:24, 22 July 2006 (UTC) The mediation has been accepted I haven't anything from it since. Rex 17:27, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
- As this site defines it, Roman or Romans usually refers to "A thing or person of or from the city of Rome." - There is evidence that the heads of the Roman Catholic Church exercised control over the Duchy of Rome, after it split off from the Byzantine Empire whose power over the region was weakened through the encroachments of the Lombards, forcing the bishops of rome to take on larger responsibilities in defending Rome from said Lombards, which would eventually lead to references of Pontiff-elected Roman dukes, who were perhaps successors of the original dukes of Rome. Add in the territory Pepin donated, which unlike the forged Constantine , was confirmed by both himself, his son, and multiple others, wouldn't that mean that when Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne, King of the Franks, as 'Emperor of the Romans' in 800, he would have the authority to do so? It's hardly the old Roman Empire, but it is Rome.
Recently, User:Ulritz has added the following templates to the topp of the page;{{Histoy of France}} and {{History of Germany}}. These templates were already included at the bottom of the page, along with evey other national template for Germany and France by far aren't the only modern nations with historical ties to the Frankish Empire, this user refuses to debate other wikipedians on talk pages, and chooses editwarring instead, he tries to justify his edits by his edit summaries which, as I have experienced, contain either a very strange explanation ... or an insult. This time User:Ulritz refered to a "mainstream theory", and I wonder, User:Ulritz, what are you talking about? Rex 10:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
History doesn't deal with today, Germany and France did not exist at the time of the Frankish empire. This is just plain nationalism. You have absolutely no point whatoever. Rex 10:29, 14 August 2006 (UTC)'
I think this article could be improved by adding a bit in the Society in Frankish Gaul section about the improved treatment and increased freedom of women. In my eyes 21:53, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Apparently since the original article was split into The Franks and Frankish Empire, there has been little concern for the division. The Frankish Empire, for example, is treated extensively on both pages.
For the moment I've added a notice to each of the two articles referring to the other ones. If this doesn't work, I would suggest merging them again. -- SteveMcCluskey 12:24, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I just posted on the Franks talk page about this. I don't know the history of this article (was it split after Franks became a featured article?). But it is standard practice on Wikipedia to have different articles for empires from people. One is a political narrative, the other is a socio history (language, art, etc..). The problem with the Franks article is that it has almost nothing on the Frankish people: Language, Art, Literature, etc.. but that doesn't mean it should be merged, it just needs to be expanded and the political narrative of the empire aggregated here. -- Stbalbach 03:12, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
The section on Frankish society should stay where it is, because the Frankish Empire had many people who were not Franks (Celts, Avars, Italians,etc.). "Franks" and "Frankish Empire" should not merge for that same reason.
Why is this article named "Frankish Empire" not only does it only even potentially apply from 800-843, meaning it can only apply to about 15% of the state's history, I'm not certain its even appropriate then, Charlemagne uses variations of the title, Imperator Augustus Romanum gubernans Imperium Rex Francorum et Longobardorum necnon modo Dominator Saxonorum, "August Emperor of the Romans governing the Empire, and not in the same way King of the Franks and Lombards, Subjugator of the Saxons" meaning that while he's identifying himself as an Emperor, and that he governs an Empire its the Empire of the Romans, not of the Franks, Louis puts Renovatio Regni Francorum on his coins, once again showing the Franks were a Kingdom, even if they were ruled by an Emperor. Francia seems to be becoming the standard academic term, and it was even used contemporaneously by Fredegar among other, so that might be acceptable, or "Frankish Kingdom" but "Frankish Empire" followed by the unsourced Latin translation (where is this from, was it ever used or even referenced at the time?) doesn't make any sense to me.
Ethan Hoddes 04:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I support the move for the reasons given above. — AldeBaer 13:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
The article has been moved and the double redirects (only) have been fixed. Regarding PMA's point that Frankish Empire more probably means Carolingian Empire, I'll have a look at those links over the weekend (unless someone beats me to it). Angus McLellan (Talk) 18:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
I´ve just found this discussion and I´m a little bit confused. Why do You call it "Francia"? German and French historians call it "Fraenkisches Reich" (german) or "Royaumes Francs" (french). In latin the name was "Regnum Francorum", which was used in documents. And both german and french historians use this for the whole time from Chlodwig/Chlovis till the end about 900 A.D. In Germany and France "Francia" is name for that region in 9./10.th century which was called "´Neustria" before but not fot the whole empire. 84.166.250.95 ( talk) 18:21, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
"At his [Charlemagne's] death, the Carolingian Empire was larger in terms of land mass than the original Roman Empire."
Eh? Francia was certainly not larger than the entire empire, or even the original western half. It was larger than the disintegrated remnants of the western empire at the traditional date of its "fall" in 476, but that's hardly representative of the empire for most of its history. And since the author brings up the Battle of the Teutoburg Forest in the next sentence, he/she does seem to be talking about the empire's entire history. I would simply delete this sentence, but I feel it would disrupt the whole structure of the paragraph.
A. Parrot ( talk) 21:20, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Ah, makes sense now. A. Parrot ( talk) 20:18, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
French or German? -- 71.106.173.110 ( talk) 08:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)
It depends who we call the "Franks"... Frankish empire was nothing like a nation united under a same people, culture, customs or language; it was just a political entity, a territory ruled by a nobility with Frankish roots.
If we call "Franks" the original people of Frankish language that were based in the area of nowadays Belgium/southern Netherland/Rhine area (that should be the definition in my opinion: there is no reason to call the romance-speaking peoples of the big parts of the empire as being Franks, since they were just ruled by them; they were not even having been "frankishified", but retained their Gallo-roman culture intact), then the Franks were only a small minority inside their huge empire, big parts of its territory was in fact of latin culture (what is now "France") and not of Germanic culture (what are now Flanders, Neterlands or Germany).
If by "Frank", we mean all the peoples that lived inside the empire, then the cultures and languages hugely varies during times (in the original Frankish realms the Frankish-speaking peoples were probably a majority; but as soon as the territory exepended to romance-speaking areas, they became a minority); and varies in areas (some romance-speaking areas: modern France, Catalunia, Spanish marches, northern and central Italy; germanic-speaking areas: Modern day Flanders, Netherlands, Germany).
I think it would be good to avoid spreading confusion among minds to remind that the original Frankish people (Frankish-speaking) and the peoples contained in the whole empire are two different things. So I suggest to modify that sentence which seem to me completly wrong:
" (Kingdom of the Franks"), Frankish Realm or occasionally Frankland, was the territory inhabited and ruled by the Franks from the 3rd to the 10th century"
It is true that we speak about the territory ruled by the Franks, but certainly not "inhabited" by Frankish peoples; since most of its inhabitants were not of Frankish culture. To avoid confusion it would be good also to remind that modern day France language and culture (and the big majority of its peoples) does not descend from Frankish culture (despite its name could let think it is the case, especially in German "Frankreich"), but from Gallo-Roman one. It is a good thing to separate political empires to cultural/ethnical areas. the political entity that we call France might derive from the Frankish empire; but its culture/people does not derives from Frankish culture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.224.59.166 ( talk) 11:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
{{Infobox Former Country |native_name = Imperium Francorum |conventional_long_name = Frankish Empire |common_name = Francia | |continent = Europe |region = |country = France |era = Middle Ages |government_type = [[Hereditary monarchy]] |status = [[Kingdom]] later an [[Empire]] |year_start = 3rd century |year_end = 987 |event_pre = |date_pre = |event_start = |date_start = |event_end = |date_end = |p1 = |flag_p1 = |p2 = |flag_p2 = |p3 = |flag_p3 = |s1 = |flag_s1 = |image_flag = |image_coat = Héraldique_meuble_Fleur_de_lys_lissée.svg |symbol_type = [[Fleur-de-lis#King Clovis I|Fleur-de-lis]] |image_map = Franks_expansion.gif |image_map_caption = Frankish expansion. | |capital = Aachen |national_motto = |national_anthem = |common_languages = [[Old Frankish]], [[Latin]] |religion = [[Roman Catholic]] |currency = |leader1 = [[Clovis I]] |year_leader1 = 481-511 |leader2 = [[Louis V]] (Last) |year_leader2 = 986-987 |title_leader = [[List of Frankish kings|King]] & later [[Emperor]] }}
The term "imperium Francorum" was not official, or commonly used. Nor is "Frankish Empire" all that common the secondary literature. There was no Frankish kingdom in the 3rd century and nothing was disestablished in 987. Aachen was not the "capital" of the kingdom/empire throughout this period (or ever, in one sense). The Old Frankish language was not widely spoken in the Empire. The monarchy was at least quasi-elective throughout the period, depite several dynasts' best efforts. Louis V was not the last anything and there is a discrepancy between the dates of Clovis I and the claim that Francia was established in the 3rd century. The whole thing is wrong. — Srnec ( talk) 01:18, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
{{helpme}} The animation of Frankish expansion does not appear. -- Mistakefinder ( talk) 04:04, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
Done
I've made some changes to the Infobox, I hope that now this inofobox will stay now and that in continuation to what User:Paedia has said above, it's place in the article will be resolved for good. -- Oren neu dag ( talk) 17:01, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
It would be good if the article had section about the Eastern vassal states. This theme would deserve an own section. I think this subject has not entirely discussed yet. For instance:
I was surprised to find the name "Frankia" in this and one or two related articles. I've never seen it before, and the article by that title in Wikipedia describes a form of bacteria. There's no source for this form, which was apparently introduced to the article without discussion or citation by Smec on July 17, 2006. Googling it, the only other uses of "Frankia" for "Francia" seem to be based on this article. I don't find it in Merriam-Webster Online, the Oxford English Dictionary, LaRousse, or Robert.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that this spelling has been used, but it doesn't appear ever to have been a regular form. "Francia" is a Latin name, and would never have been written with a "k" in that language, French, or English. If "Frankia" has never been generally used, then it probably doesn't belong in the article. Unless some source for this as a legitimate historical variant can be found, I suggest removing it from this and other articles that ought to read, "Francia." P Aculeius ( talk) 01:54, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
I am looking for the source of that edit: [7]. I especially interested in the first two sentences: The first time that Francia is named is in the Panegyrici Latini in the early 4th century. It is the area north and east of the Rhine, roughly in the triangle Utrecht - Bielefeld - Bonn. Could somebody help me with that? Igor Filippov ( talk) 15:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
Currently Frankish Empire redirects here, even though there is a separate article called Carolingian Empire? This is absurd, Frankish Empire and Carolingian Empire are the same thing. Post-Carolingian Empire has a separate article anyway. I guess this article is named 'Francia' as a compromise between 'Frankish Kingdom' and 'Frankish Empire', but this naming is very unusual. It's certainly the least usual of the three choices. Even more, Francia mainly referred to Austrasia and Neustria. And then on the side of the article we have the infobox titled differently than the page: "Frankish Empire" (which was now founded in the 3rd century?). It is all an incredible mess. If we are starting with the 3rd century, why not merge this page with the Franks page? I know it is a wikipedia-practice for the Germanic tribes to have an article separate from the articles on their kingdoms, but this would solve the naming problem of this article (Frankish Kingdom or Frankish Empire) without compromising with wikipedia-specific 'Francia', and most importantly we would have an article with continuity between Merovingians and Carolingians, which must be the main purpose of this article. The Frankish 'realms' are traditionally categorized by dynasties. So, we should have Franks as the main article ( Frankish Kingdom would redirect to it), and then separate articles on the Merovingians and the Carolingians. This would be in accordance with the already existing separate article Carolingian Empire (preferably named Frankish Empire). Carolingian/Frankish Empire, of course, has to have a separate article. Francia should be a disambiguation page, or a separate article describing the shifting usage of the name. Zhmr ( talk) 16:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
well, I would not agree it is "absurd", it is just one possible solution. Being faced with the necessity to divide centuries of gradual historical change into discrete Wikipedia changes, every choice will have advantages and disadvantages. The Carolingian Empire page is clearly introduced "The Carolingian Empire (800–888) was the final stage in the history of the early medieval realm of the Franks," establishing that it is fully a sub-topic to this one. Now while there will always be a wide array of reasonable choices, and there is ultimately no single correct approach, of course it is "wikipedia-practice" to reflect common usage in scholarly literature as much as possible. The aim should be to prevent any sort of approach or nomenclature that seems bizarre to a specialist visiting this page. You seem to argue that this is the case here.
Your suggestion of merging "Francia" and "Franks" has some merit (and iirc has been brought up numerous times over the years). I would accept as likely that there will be very few scholarly sources that treat "the Franks" and "the realm of the Franks" as two distinct topics. Indeed, merely by saying "the Franks" you are most likely to mean "the polity of the Franks, i.e. Francia". I am not convinced, otoh, that "Frankish Empire" is simply synonymous with "Carolingian Empire", i.e. that the term "empire" does not apply to the Merowingian period. Technically, I grant you, there was no "emperor" prior to Charlemagne, but " empire" has a narrow and a wider meaning (e.g. there could never have been a Persian or Assyrian Empire if we insist that empires only qualify as empires if their ruler has been crowned by the pope). If you want to make a particular case relating to terminology, you will need to present a survey of terminology as used in scholarly literature. I.e. I am perfectly willing to be convinced that no serious scholar will ever apply the term "empire" to the Merowingian period, but for this I will need to be presented with a convenient survey of literature. -- dab (𒁳) 09:46, 4 June 2015 (UTC)
Seems to still be an issue dab. The article is really surprisingly poor for such a well known topic, and the really strange name choice is one obvious reason, while another is that obviously whenever there are too many articles about very similar topics, quality is always lower. I would support a merge, and/or a renaming.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 10:33, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
I'm a bit confused about something from what I've read in various articles. Was the Kingdom of the Lombards ever officially part of the Kingdom of the Franks after Charlemagne's conquest of it or was it merely in personal union with the Kingdom of the Franks under Charlemagne? Emperor001 ( talk) 04:38, 1 October 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Francia/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
* References: Although a number of primary and secondary sources are listed there is only one explicit reference in the whole article.
laurens (
talk) 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
|
Last edited at 15:53, 3 January 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 15:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Francia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 00:16, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Francia. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 11:24, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
@ Newroderick895: The source added in this edit only talks about how 17th century French people interpreted what they perceived to be a Merovingian symbol. The author does not appear to claim to represent modern thinking on the meaning of the bees.-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 18:08, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's correct to describe Francia as a hereditary monarchy. Einhardt's biography of Charlemagne mentions that the Merovingians were "chosen" as kings before the Carolingians. That plus the manner in which Charlemagne and Carloman were selected as co-kings over different regions indicates that Francia was technically an elective monarchy that they simply made de facto hereditary by always being elected, not unlike the Habsburgs and the Holy Roman Empire. Emperor001 ( talk) 11:59, 30 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus not to move Francia to Kingdom of the Franks at this time, and no consensus to move the disambiguation page, per the discussion below. If necessary, please feel free to reintroduce a request to determine whether there is consensus to move this page to Frankish Kingdom. Dekimasu よ! 02:40, 25 August 2018 (UTC)
– Francia is also the country of France in many different languages. It can cause ambiguity between the Frankish state and the modern country of France. 50.198.101.209 ( talk) 18:58, 17 August 2018 (UTC)
I opposed kingdom of the franks but, thinking about it, Frankish kingom is a much more common name. Francia is used in the context of East Francia and West Francia, and in other contexts as well, but not so much when it comes to this earlier period to be the title of the article. I thought Francia was useful to have readers understand where East Francia and West Francia come from but, reading about it, i just don't see books on the Franks using this term more than Frankish kindgom. Readers will understand anyway, but I think it's time for a more common name to prevail.
Barjimoa ( talk) 15:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
Why is it part of the History of France series? Either it is both the history of Germany and France or it is left out completely. Adrianolusius ( talk) 18:16, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
So the various names listed for Francia in the opening include Francia/Kingdom of the Franks/Regnum Francorum/Frankish Kingdom/Frankland/Frankish Empire.
Should France not be included? I mean France is literally just the French rendering of Francia (and given that we use France in English and not Francia the English rendering as well) and given it being by far the longest-lasting rendering of the name it's at least as notable as the Latin rendering of Kingdom of the Franks. 14.2.37.113 ( talk) 05:34, 14 September 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:07, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
How do you pronounce Francia in English? Frankia or Frantsia? Or are both pronounciations allowable/common? If not, there should be an IPA spelling in brackets. 2001:4BC9:A42:3BA6:85CF:976:7394:BC23 ( talk) 10:52, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
vif12vf I see there is an edit war about the official language in the infobox. I suggest part of the problem here is that there was no such thing as an official language of Francia. It is however clearly correct that the only widely used written language was Latin. So I suggest we can delete that category or else use Latin. Your edsum makes no sense to me Latin would only have been gradually adopted after they converted, and frankish remained their mother tongue!
Clearly the empire had no single mother tongue and clearly mother tongues are not the same as official languages. It is also very clear that Latin was not gradually adopted but rather a language which was already widely used in this area. I think the list of commonly used languages should also include Latin and Frankish?
Andrew Lancaster (
talk) 08:31, 4 December 2023 (UTC)