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I wonder if any of you is aware of the fact, that a game was released, in wich Chopin is a main character. It was released on Xbox360 and Playstation 3. The game's title is Eternal Sonata. Maybe someone, with better English skills could mention this in the article.
(Sorry if I did something wrong, my first edit)-- Durjódhana ( talk) 16:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
They have heard of it, but to the genteel Wikipedians, video games will never be as culturally advanced as other entertainment mediums. Shikyo3 ( talk) 03:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Quarkde ( talk) 19:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Read & edited Chopin's article & changed *Op.* to *op.* As I was working, a note arrived at my talk page, which I am pasting below together with my answer, in case anyone else questions my revision:
Hi, Frania. I've noticed this edit. Can you tell me what your rationale for decapitalising "Op." is? It is certainly usually capitalised in English language references. If there's some WP convention about it, can you point me to it? Cheers.
My answer:
I know that I must be the only person in the whole of en:wikipedia with this, so I looked it up before decapitalising *Opus* & *Op.* in order to have an immediate answer to the question I was sure would be coming! After finishing reading/editing the article, I was going to leave a note on Chopin's discussion page, but you beat me to it. I still will as I am not finished with this long article.
Please check the following:
Frania Wisniewska
Best regards,
Frania W. ( talk) 04:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
If not a daguerreotype, then what? Frania W. ( talk) 15:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is arguably A-class, and clearly well on its way to FA consideration. I have a few suggestions -- I put them in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 16:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
In the quotation from Laurencin, what does the word progone mean? I can’t find a definition anywhere on the web. MJ ( t • c) 14:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
A "progone" is the opposite of an "epigone"—the latter being "an undistinguished imitator or follower of an important writer, painter, etc." The word "progone" comes from the Greek progonos, meaning "born before."
I propose that we leave the Laurencin quotation (" Music" section) in place and add any other quotation that may be appropriate. Nihil novi ( talk) 11:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This has been mentioned previously, but is there an accurate list anywhere of his students? Some people claimed to have studied under him (such as Debussy's teacher, Marie Mauté de Fleurville), but there's no evidence. Others definitely did, although in most cases their careers came to nothing. That aside, it would be good to have an accurate, referenced, list, which could also make some reference to his student genealogy (notable grand-pupils etc). Maybe a separate article would be the appropriate place. I've just come across another name I'd never heard before - Kazimierz Wernik (1828-1859), who, according to Grove V, studied with Chopin for 2 years 1846-1848. He'd be on the list. If there's no comprehensive list already in existence, I'm prepared to create one. -- JackofOz ( talk) 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
How is that?
Frania W. ( talk) 19:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I am perplexed at the tone of the article and of the discussion with respect to Chopin's nationality (as well as his father's, being presented as a "French-expatriate", rather than a French citizen expatriated to Poland, or similar). They appear emotional rather than objective. The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is not well supported by the quotes provided and conveys a sense of reluctance in taking French papers which is not supported by fact. Furthermore, the article does not accurately capture French law with respect to French citizenship, which was Chopin's by birth right (even though he only officialized it much later). There seems to be a tendency to want to secure Chopin as a Pole. In practice, Chopin was the result of a cultural mix, spoke both languages from childhood, held both citizenships and spent time in both countries (both as a youth in Poland and as an adult in France, to oversimplify). There is no doubt that he had very significant ties (familial, practical and emotional) to both countries - and that he both benefited and occasionally suffered from being a dual-national. He did not renounce his Polish citizenship and the Polish side of his being for officializing his French citizenship, but that does not in any manner support the tone of the article suggesting some sort of constraint and compromize... 168.103.87.121 ( talk) 00:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Ergos, Colorado USA
Kotniski, OK, I'll put the question to you another way: Is someone born in France of French parents, a French citizen or a French national? According to the Code Napoléon, when Chopin was born he was a French*man* (a tiny one!). Was he then a French citizen or a French national?
As to (quoting you) ... can be considered evidence of any kind of allegiance or feeling of belonging to France on his part. Chopin must have felt some tie with France because that's where he chose to remain. He could have stayed in Austria, Germany, England, Italy, but he lived in France for the second half of his life. He, naturally, was close to the Poles living in Paris, this while living in the midst of the French artistic & intellectual milieu. In other words, when living in France, he did not limit his acquaintances to only people from Poland.
The one-year travel document, his 1837 passport (he had already got one in 1835), may not be evidence of any allegiance or feeling of belonging to France, but it is evidence that the French considered him to be French "issu de parents français", otherwise, the "Police Générale de France" would not have issued him a passport "Au nom du roi".
The love of Chopin for Poland did not stop him from being a Frenchman - citizen or national, whatever the difference. -- Frania W. ( talk) 13:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
22 march ... is this old style julian date? His birth certificate said 22feb Y23 ( talk) 23:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Chopin is both Polish and French: his mother was Polish and his father was French ( according to the Encyclopedia Britannica). In acknowledging his ethnic background, we should state that he is Polish-French. Quarkde ( talk) 19:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have used reverse chronological order because that is the most effective way to allow the reader to trace the scholarly discussion back from the most current sources to the earlier ones. Wordpainter2416 ( talk) 23:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
We now have a Frédéric Chopin 'book' see Wikipedia:Books/Frédéric Chopin. The contents can be edited. In particular the chronological order of the compositions probably needs checking. -- Klein zach 02:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
In 1835, when Chopin was twenty-five, his soon-to-be-fiancée Maria Wodzińska painted a watercolor portrait of him which Tad Szulc, in Chopin in Paris, describes as one of the two best portraits of the composer. (It graces the cover of the book.) There may be a reproduction of the portrait in the museum that was formerly the apartment that Chopin shared with his family until November 1830, in the Krasiński Palace south annex at Krakowskie Przedmieście 5 in Warsaw. The museum is very near the Holy Cross Church, where Chopin's heart is immured.
Perhaps someone could check whether the portrait is at the museum and photograph it for the " Chopin" article? (For technical reasons, the cover of Szulc's book doesn't make a good original.) Nihil novi ( talk) 23:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Undid adjective "woman" as it is unnecessary information. Despite her unusual pseudonym it is not customary to designate the sex of a writer in such a context. Furthermore it's poor English. Dr. Dan ( talk) 22:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have any other source for this statement (which appears in the lead - of the three sources given for it, only the Tad Szulc book actually seems to mention it)? As mentioned above in the thread #Category:French people of Polish descent, Chopin probably had French citizenship all the time, and so didn't need to "change" his citizenship in order to obtain a French passport. Is this matter mentioned in any other sources that people know of?-- Kotniski ( talk) 17:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I've just read the following text "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time." here [3]. Does anybody know any more about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varsovian ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
To Varsovian: I have one word for your piece of information & the article from which you got it: TRASH.
I also wish you would not have put this title for the section you created. To do this, use that word, a few weeks before the bicentenary of Chopin's birth is shameful and, if you had any sense of decency, you would remove it. -- Frania W. ( talk) 23:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
"At the time of his death only Jane Stirling, his Scottish benefactor, claimed to know the truth, and this she wrote on a piece of paper before burying it with him."
Varsovian,
1. When I see such a sentence at the beginning of an article, I immediately know the type of article it is. In French, this falls into the category of "presse à sensation", in English, "tabloid", and I call it TRASH. Imagine lending truth to the supposedly claim made by Jane Stirling (please bring the proof) that she wrote his real birthdate on a piece of paper and had him buried with it...!!! My answer to such sentence is that, logically, if the truth was buried, how can anyone use that piece of evidence to prove anything, one way or the other?
2. Another piece of TRASH: "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time."
To see such garbage here a few weeks before the 200th anniversary of Chopin's birth is revolting!
I'll add a few expressions or phrases picked out of the article you are offering to us as the Truth parachuted to Earth:
Such style should prevent anyone serious about contributing to the making of an encyclopedia to use this very text as a source. I would not touch a word of it with a ten foot pole.
So, Varsovian, answering your question Frania: would you consider "Chopin an illegitimate child" to be an appropriate title for this discussion?, my answer is a resounding No !, and at the risk of repeating myself, I find either of the titles you came up with extremely offensive, and stupidly so because based on untruth. I also find it ridiculous that you should report Dr. Loosmark as a vandal. The ones who desecrate the memory of people are the vandals, so, please, Varsovian, reconsider the title & do not make an edit war out of this.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 16:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Happy bicentenary, wherever you are. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC) (it's 1 March where I am)
Hi guys
I added a Trivia section to mention the fact that the municipality of Tirana, Albania had named a square after the composer. I have provided the references, but they are in Albanian. Also, if anyone thinks that the information i put belongs to a subsection or somewhere else in the composer's biography, please make the necessary changes, for i can't figure out where or how to put it.
Best regards LiveGo 21:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orges ( talk • contribs)
The policy of the Roman Catholic Church in the 19th century was not to "Christen" children in the the vernacular (as is done today) and his baptismal records would show "Fridericus Franciscus Chopin" rather than Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin. Dr. Dan ( talk) 18:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(OD) Thank you, Frania, for providing the source. Personally it was not my intention to add the Latin version to the lead of the Chopin article, since I think it is unnecessary "overkill". The issue was simply that Chopin was not "christened", Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, that is his name in Polish, and correcting this error was sufficient. That is all that I did with my edit and all that I desired. Again Frania, thank you for your extra work and efforts. Loosmark, there was no need to turn this into some kind of hostile incident. Correcting a blatantly false assertion doesn't require a "source". Chopin was baptised in Latin. Despite this simple fact, I only made the assertion that records show he was not baptised in Polish, here on the talk page, not at the article. My comment [5] was an explanation for my edit [6]. I shouldn't have bothered to ask you to provide a source for the other version because you couldn't do so even if you wanted to. My bad. Childish and useless comments like "Ok we are eagerly awaiting your sources. In the mean time you don't mind if I revert your for now unsourced edit, do you?", serve no purpose in so far as improving the project. Don't kid yourself that your comments and behavior do anything to advance your arguments and beliefs in the eyes of anyone trying to end the continuing juvenile and adolescent mentality that should have ended with the WP:EEML fiasco. Sometimes I read some of the things posted in these arguments and ask myself if these aren't the same people who "visit" the project on a daily basis with vulgar and obscene "edits" and then crawl back into the wood work for a day or two, and come back with more "gems". Eventually one can only hope these people will come around to realize the error of their ways and maybe contribute to improving Wikipedia. If not, they will find that they are not welcome and continue to be reverted, blocked, and banned from the project. Dr. Dan ( talk) 05:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Back to the topic, of course this is interesting information, but I don't think it belongs in the lead of the article (as far as I know this Latin name wasn't used anywhere else than in the baptismal records, so it's hardly a notable name). Any objections if we move it to the section of the article that deals with his birth?-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
This article seems a little biased in its (arguably) excessive praise of Chopin. Quotations or citations regarding his supposed 'universal appeal' litter the article and seem to give the impression that there is no criticism of his music. While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion with many contemporary musicologists and composers, and much of the piano music of the 20th and 21st century piano music has been written 'in reaction to' what is seen as his bombastically scalar writing which has become the norm in popular perception of what is 'pianistic'. Is there anyone with a bit more background in the subject who would be able to contribute a section on this aspect of the contemporary reception of his work? I am not calling for a 'bash chopin' section or even 'criticism' -- if anything, it is a testimony to his profound success that his style is something to be reacted against. Thoughts? Am I just talking out of my hat, here?--James O'Callaghan 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDOCallaghan ( talk • contribs)
While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion ... Could you give us something that is not "out of fashion" a century and a half later? And maybe "out of fashion" as far as composing is concerned, but certainly not "out of fashion" the way Chopin's music touches us, as does Mozart's music, Beethoven's or Telemann's. The fact that we are in the 21st century & musical styles have changed should not take anything out of the genius of Chopin, no more than Chopin's music took anything out of the genius of Mozart or Bach, two composers he greatly admired. Until now, great composers & performers always "respected their elders", as every great composer is a link between the past & the future. If it has become fashionable by some late 20th century & beginning 21st musicologists to belittle the creations of the greatest of the greats, it is a rather sad undertaking on their part. This being said, if you feel that this article is lacking in proper criticism of Chopin's work, why don't you create a new section ? - you already have a title for it.
do witz...! -- Frania W. ( talk) 01:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC) (And you may put your hat back on your head.)
The space between the end of the lead & life section is too large. Is not there a way to remedy this problem?
Also, Chopin's signature [7] should be right under his photograph, not so far down.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 00:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Why has this been relegated to the bottom of the page? It should be next to the other one like it was for a time. Cloak' —Preceding undated comment added 13:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC).
I correct it , in fact chopin was half french and half polish, so I don't understand why people write only polish. What's wrong with french ? Is it francophobia or something like this ? I understand that he was born in Poland but he gained french citizens thanks to his father ( « Tout enfant né d'un Français a l'étranger est Français »). So he was half french, half polish. It's not complicated, except if you have something against the french ....:( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.66.146.209 ( talk) 00:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Wiki guidelines: The opening paragraph should have:
THD3 ( talk) 13:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Konitski.
1. The Code Napoléon is the law, which - in France - no one is supposed to ignore. If it is necessary to find - not reading it out of the Code itself - that a child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French, then I shall endeavour to do so.
2. The Code Napoléon is still in vigor and a child born to at least one French parent (mother included, which was not the case in 1804) outside of France is French.
3. Even if the law had changed, as far as Chopin is concerned, the law applied would have been that of the time he was born, i.e. the 1804 Code Napoléon.
4. If Chopin's father had lost his French nationality, then it would not be written on Chopin's 1837 passport "born of French parents" (in the plural because when Chopin's mother married Nicolas Chopin, she automatically became French.)
5. Leaving Chopin's nationalities out of the lead will not solve the problem because it will always come up, and with good reason: every author, composer, poet, political person is given his/her nationality in first sentence of the lead, so we cannot escape with Chopin.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 18:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Varsovian: Chopin arrived in France in 1831 with probably a Polish Russian passport, which he found difficult to bring himself to renew (in 1834) because he would have had to go to the Russian Embassy in Paris. Polish refugees in France were to either renew their Polish passport (thru the Russian Embassy), or register with the French as "émigrés", which Nicolas Chopin suggested he not do, in a letter to his son dated 7 September 1834. That is when Chopin contacted the French administration & got a French passport - based on the fact that he was born a Frenchman because his father was French, hence the mention on his French passport "né de parents français".
Please forgive me, but I must leave my computer for a few hours & will pick up the discussion later.
Cordialement, -- Frania W. ( talk) 18:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Based on the above arguments, I conclude that the intro should describe Chopin as being Polish-French. FWIW, similar discussions have taken place in the talk pages of the Vladimir Horowitz and Arthur Rubinstein articles, with similar results. There is another issue with the intro: It's too long. Everything but the top paragrapgh should be integrated into the main body of article. THD3 ( talk) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
(UTC)
The ugly bolded Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin should be removed from the lead. Would should the English Wikipedia show Polish translations of the German names Friedrich and Franz, when the composer himself used the French translations? -- Matthead Discuß 19:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
And he was born in the Duchy of Warsaw, ruled by Frederick Augustus I of Saxony. If Copernicus is claimed as Polish just because his hometown has allied a few years before his birth with a king of Poland on the occasion of his wedding with a German princess, then Chopin can be claimed as Saxon, too. -- Matthead Discuß 19:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
We are beginning to slide off the subject, which should not be what people such as Sand thought of Chopin's Polishness, i.e. the nationality of his soul & his music, but what his actual nationality was according to the civil code (Code Napoléon) in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of his birth, which makes it clear that he was French.
We have the following:
P.S. The passport we have here is that issued in July 1837, not that of 1834. At the time, passports were for one year, which means that from 1834 until his last trip outside of France in 1848, Chopin had several French passports. -- Frania W. ( talk) 12:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I have contacted an administrator to request arbitration on this matter. Until that time, let's everybody keep a cool head, and try to espouse a neutral point of view. Remember, this is just an encyclopedia article, it isn't a matter of life & death. However, I feel we owe it to Chopin's memory, especially in his bicentennial year, to get it above a C-class, where it presently resides. THD3 ( talk) 15:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
-- Frania W. ( talk) 15:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski: It has nothing to do whether Chopin (or whoever was acting on his behalf) presumably didn't mention the war when applying for the passport..., The Code Napoléon came out 10 YEARS after Nicolas Chopin's participation in the defence of Warsaw from the Russian army of Alexander Suvorov, and was not applied retroactively. Thus:
That Wikipedia classifies "original research" or whatever ( WP:SYN) what I am doing, I personally do not care because I know that I am right, and I prefer to be right alone than wrong with the crowd. By saying that juridically speaking Chopin is/was French is not taking his Polish nationality & Polishness away from him, it simply gives him what belongs to him. The problem with Chopin is that only musicologists write about him & these respected authors never bothered to look into Chopin's nationality/nationalities; it is not their concern. And because of the tragedies that have befallen the Poles over the years, the French have never come forward in force with their claim & proof that Frédéric Chopin was also French. That is where the problem lies. And it must seem strange that someone with a name such as mine would fight for the recognizance of Chopin as being also French.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 12:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Rlevse, thank you for your take. Like you I have no particular stake in the matter, other than Wikipedia presenting accurate and correct information to its readers. If some want to turn this into "another wiki ethnic war" that is their problem and they may have to be dealt with appropriately. Now lets be clear about one thing, no one to my recollection, no one at this talk page, has contended that Chopin was exclusively French. That is not so. On the other hand many, and they are here at this talk page, want to believe that he is exclusively Polish. Even though it is not true. Interestingly, Marie Curie, who was 100% Polish, is usually considered to be Polish-French when located in most references. Amazingly we are asked to give some kind of undue weight to George Sand saying "he was more Polish than Poland". More weight than the fact that his father was French, born in France. More weight than his baptismal certificate or passport. As for him having lived essentially his whole youth in Poland, he lived most of the rest of his life in France. Neither fact is particularly important in solving how he should be categorized. Copernicus is way too off topic, and due to the lack of information that is often the case with medieval personages can't be of much help here. As for your personal family situation, thanks but it leaves one with a "pick and choose" what you want and doesn't help much either. If Bonnie Prince Charlie can make it on the list of Polish British, I think Chopin being claimed as either French-Polish or Polish-French is not only the best solution, but the only one based on reality. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | → | Archive 10 |
I wonder if any of you is aware of the fact, that a game was released, in wich Chopin is a main character. It was released on Xbox360 and Playstation 3. The game's title is Eternal Sonata. Maybe someone, with better English skills could mention this in the article.
(Sorry if I did something wrong, my first edit)-- Durjódhana ( talk) 16:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
They have heard of it, but to the genteel Wikipedians, video games will never be as culturally advanced as other entertainment mediums. Shikyo3 ( talk) 03:36, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Quarkde ( talk) 19:32, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Read & edited Chopin's article & changed *Op.* to *op.* As I was working, a note arrived at my talk page, which I am pasting below together with my answer, in case anyone else questions my revision:
Hi, Frania. I've noticed this edit. Can you tell me what your rationale for decapitalising "Op." is? It is certainly usually capitalised in English language references. If there's some WP convention about it, can you point me to it? Cheers.
My answer:
I know that I must be the only person in the whole of en:wikipedia with this, so I looked it up before decapitalising *Opus* & *Op.* in order to have an immediate answer to the question I was sure would be coming! After finishing reading/editing the article, I was going to leave a note on Chopin's discussion page, but you beat me to it. I still will as I am not finished with this long article.
Please check the following:
Frania Wisniewska
Best regards,
Frania W. ( talk) 04:27, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
If not a daguerreotype, then what? Frania W. ( talk) 15:15, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is arguably A-class, and clearly well on its way to FA consideration. I have a few suggestions -- I put them in my review on the comments page. Questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic ♪piano 16:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
In the quotation from Laurencin, what does the word progone mean? I can’t find a definition anywhere on the web. MJ ( t • c) 14:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
A "progone" is the opposite of an "epigone"—the latter being "an undistinguished imitator or follower of an important writer, painter, etc." The word "progone" comes from the Greek progonos, meaning "born before."
I propose that we leave the Laurencin quotation (" Music" section) in place and add any other quotation that may be appropriate. Nihil novi ( talk) 11:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
This has been mentioned previously, but is there an accurate list anywhere of his students? Some people claimed to have studied under him (such as Debussy's teacher, Marie Mauté de Fleurville), but there's no evidence. Others definitely did, although in most cases their careers came to nothing. That aside, it would be good to have an accurate, referenced, list, which could also make some reference to his student genealogy (notable grand-pupils etc). Maybe a separate article would be the appropriate place. I've just come across another name I'd never heard before - Kazimierz Wernik (1828-1859), who, according to Grove V, studied with Chopin for 2 years 1846-1848. He'd be on the list. If there's no comprehensive list already in existence, I'm prepared to create one. -- JackofOz ( talk) 04:01, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
How is that?
Frania W. ( talk) 19:41, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
I am perplexed at the tone of the article and of the discussion with respect to Chopin's nationality (as well as his father's, being presented as a "French-expatriate", rather than a French citizen expatriated to Poland, or similar). They appear emotional rather than objective. The sentence "to avoid having to rely on Imperial Russian documents, became a French citizen" is not well supported by the quotes provided and conveys a sense of reluctance in taking French papers which is not supported by fact. Furthermore, the article does not accurately capture French law with respect to French citizenship, which was Chopin's by birth right (even though he only officialized it much later). There seems to be a tendency to want to secure Chopin as a Pole. In practice, Chopin was the result of a cultural mix, spoke both languages from childhood, held both citizenships and spent time in both countries (both as a youth in Poland and as an adult in France, to oversimplify). There is no doubt that he had very significant ties (familial, practical and emotional) to both countries - and that he both benefited and occasionally suffered from being a dual-national. He did not renounce his Polish citizenship and the Polish side of his being for officializing his French citizenship, but that does not in any manner support the tone of the article suggesting some sort of constraint and compromize... 168.103.87.121 ( talk) 00:16, 26 January 2010 (UTC) Ergos, Colorado USA
Kotniski, OK, I'll put the question to you another way: Is someone born in France of French parents, a French citizen or a French national? According to the Code Napoléon, when Chopin was born he was a French*man* (a tiny one!). Was he then a French citizen or a French national?
As to (quoting you) ... can be considered evidence of any kind of allegiance or feeling of belonging to France on his part. Chopin must have felt some tie with France because that's where he chose to remain. He could have stayed in Austria, Germany, England, Italy, but he lived in France for the second half of his life. He, naturally, was close to the Poles living in Paris, this while living in the midst of the French artistic & intellectual milieu. In other words, when living in France, he did not limit his acquaintances to only people from Poland.
The one-year travel document, his 1837 passport (he had already got one in 1835), may not be evidence of any allegiance or feeling of belonging to France, but it is evidence that the French considered him to be French "issu de parents français", otherwise, the "Police Générale de France" would not have issued him a passport "Au nom du roi".
The love of Chopin for Poland did not stop him from being a Frenchman - citizen or national, whatever the difference. -- Frania W. ( talk) 13:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
22 march ... is this old style julian date? His birth certificate said 22feb Y23 ( talk) 23:35, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Chopin is both Polish and French: his mother was Polish and his father was French ( according to the Encyclopedia Britannica). In acknowledging his ethnic background, we should state that he is Polish-French. Quarkde ( talk) 19:42, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
I have used reverse chronological order because that is the most effective way to allow the reader to trace the scholarly discussion back from the most current sources to the earlier ones. Wordpainter2416 ( talk) 23:52, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
We now have a Frédéric Chopin 'book' see Wikipedia:Books/Frédéric Chopin. The contents can be edited. In particular the chronological order of the compositions probably needs checking. -- Klein zach 02:19, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
In 1835, when Chopin was twenty-five, his soon-to-be-fiancée Maria Wodzińska painted a watercolor portrait of him which Tad Szulc, in Chopin in Paris, describes as one of the two best portraits of the composer. (It graces the cover of the book.) There may be a reproduction of the portrait in the museum that was formerly the apartment that Chopin shared with his family until November 1830, in the Krasiński Palace south annex at Krakowskie Przedmieście 5 in Warsaw. The museum is very near the Holy Cross Church, where Chopin's heart is immured.
Perhaps someone could check whether the portrait is at the museum and photograph it for the " Chopin" article? (For technical reasons, the cover of Szulc's book doesn't make a good original.) Nihil novi ( talk) 23:48, 1 January 2010 (UTC)
Undid adjective "woman" as it is unnecessary information. Despite her unusual pseudonym it is not customary to designate the sex of a writer in such a context. Furthermore it's poor English. Dr. Dan ( talk) 22:01, 17 January 2010 (UTC)
Does anyone have any other source for this statement (which appears in the lead - of the three sources given for it, only the Tad Szulc book actually seems to mention it)? As mentioned above in the thread #Category:French people of Polish descent, Chopin probably had French citizenship all the time, and so didn't need to "change" his citizenship in order to obtain a French passport. Is this matter mentioned in any other sources that people know of?-- Kotniski ( talk) 17:46, 31 January 2010 (UTC)
I've just read the following text "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time." here [3]. Does anybody know any more about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varsovian ( talk • contribs) 10:09, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
To Varsovian: I have one word for your piece of information & the article from which you got it: TRASH.
I also wish you would not have put this title for the section you created. To do this, use that word, a few weeks before the bicentenary of Chopin's birth is shameful and, if you had any sense of decency, you would remove it. -- Frania W. ( talk) 23:22, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
"At the time of his death only Jane Stirling, his Scottish benefactor, claimed to know the truth, and this she wrote on a piece of paper before burying it with him."
Varsovian,
1. When I see such a sentence at the beginning of an article, I immediately know the type of article it is. In French, this falls into the category of "presse à sensation", in English, "tabloid", and I call it TRASH. Imagine lending truth to the supposedly claim made by Jane Stirling (please bring the proof) that she wrote his real birthdate on a piece of paper and had him buried with it...!!! My answer to such sentence is that, logically, if the truth was buried, how can anyone use that piece of evidence to prove anything, one way or the other?
2. Another piece of TRASH: "Furthermore, while most accept he was the son of a French expatriate some experts argue he was the bastard child of an unnamed aristocrat. The truth has been lost to time."
To see such garbage here a few weeks before the 200th anniversary of Chopin's birth is revolting!
I'll add a few expressions or phrases picked out of the article you are offering to us as the Truth parachuted to Earth:
Such style should prevent anyone serious about contributing to the making of an encyclopedia to use this very text as a source. I would not touch a word of it with a ten foot pole.
So, Varsovian, answering your question Frania: would you consider "Chopin an illegitimate child" to be an appropriate title for this discussion?, my answer is a resounding No !, and at the risk of repeating myself, I find either of the titles you came up with extremely offensive, and stupidly so because based on untruth. I also find it ridiculous that you should report Dr. Loosmark as a vandal. The ones who desecrate the memory of people are the vandals, so, please, Varsovian, reconsider the title & do not make an edit war out of this.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 16:47, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Happy bicentenary, wherever you are. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:50, 28 February 2010 (UTC) (it's 1 March where I am)
Hi guys
I added a Trivia section to mention the fact that the municipality of Tirana, Albania had named a square after the composer. I have provided the references, but they are in Albanian. Also, if anyone thinks that the information i put belongs to a subsection or somewhere else in the composer's biography, please make the necessary changes, for i can't figure out where or how to put it.
Best regards LiveGo 21:37, 1 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orges ( talk • contribs)
The policy of the Roman Catholic Church in the 19th century was not to "Christen" children in the the vernacular (as is done today) and his baptismal records would show "Fridericus Franciscus Chopin" rather than Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin. Dr. Dan ( talk) 18:52, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
(OD) Thank you, Frania, for providing the source. Personally it was not my intention to add the Latin version to the lead of the Chopin article, since I think it is unnecessary "overkill". The issue was simply that Chopin was not "christened", Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin, that is his name in Polish, and correcting this error was sufficient. That is all that I did with my edit and all that I desired. Again Frania, thank you for your extra work and efforts. Loosmark, there was no need to turn this into some kind of hostile incident. Correcting a blatantly false assertion doesn't require a "source". Chopin was baptised in Latin. Despite this simple fact, I only made the assertion that records show he was not baptised in Polish, here on the talk page, not at the article. My comment [5] was an explanation for my edit [6]. I shouldn't have bothered to ask you to provide a source for the other version because you couldn't do so even if you wanted to. My bad. Childish and useless comments like "Ok we are eagerly awaiting your sources. In the mean time you don't mind if I revert your for now unsourced edit, do you?", serve no purpose in so far as improving the project. Don't kid yourself that your comments and behavior do anything to advance your arguments and beliefs in the eyes of anyone trying to end the continuing juvenile and adolescent mentality that should have ended with the WP:EEML fiasco. Sometimes I read some of the things posted in these arguments and ask myself if these aren't the same people who "visit" the project on a daily basis with vulgar and obscene "edits" and then crawl back into the wood work for a day or two, and come back with more "gems". Eventually one can only hope these people will come around to realize the error of their ways and maybe contribute to improving Wikipedia. If not, they will find that they are not welcome and continue to be reverted, blocked, and banned from the project. Dr. Dan ( talk) 05:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Back to the topic, of course this is interesting information, but I don't think it belongs in the lead of the article (as far as I know this Latin name wasn't used anywhere else than in the baptismal records, so it's hardly a notable name). Any objections if we move it to the section of the article that deals with his birth?-- Kotniski ( talk) 10:36, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
This article seems a little biased in its (arguably) excessive praise of Chopin. Quotations or citations regarding his supposed 'universal appeal' litter the article and seem to give the impression that there is no criticism of his music. While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion with many contemporary musicologists and composers, and much of the piano music of the 20th and 21st century piano music has been written 'in reaction to' what is seen as his bombastically scalar writing which has become the norm in popular perception of what is 'pianistic'. Is there anyone with a bit more background in the subject who would be able to contribute a section on this aspect of the contemporary reception of his work? I am not calling for a 'bash chopin' section or even 'criticism' -- if anything, it is a testimony to his profound success that his style is something to be reacted against. Thoughts? Am I just talking out of my hat, here?--James O'Callaghan 22:30, 6 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDOCallaghan ( talk • contribs)
While the reality is that his style of writing is quite out of fashion ... Could you give us something that is not "out of fashion" a century and a half later? And maybe "out of fashion" as far as composing is concerned, but certainly not "out of fashion" the way Chopin's music touches us, as does Mozart's music, Beethoven's or Telemann's. The fact that we are in the 21st century & musical styles have changed should not take anything out of the genius of Chopin, no more than Chopin's music took anything out of the genius of Mozart or Bach, two composers he greatly admired. Until now, great composers & performers always "respected their elders", as every great composer is a link between the past & the future. If it has become fashionable by some late 20th century & beginning 21st musicologists to belittle the creations of the greatest of the greats, it is a rather sad undertaking on their part. This being said, if you feel that this article is lacking in proper criticism of Chopin's work, why don't you create a new section ? - you already have a title for it.
do witz...! -- Frania W. ( talk) 01:32, 7 March 2010 (UTC) (And you may put your hat back on your head.)
The space between the end of the lead & life section is too large. Is not there a way to remedy this problem?
Also, Chopin's signature [7] should be right under his photograph, not so far down.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 00:45, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Why has this been relegated to the bottom of the page? It should be next to the other one like it was for a time. Cloak' —Preceding undated comment added 13:23, 14 April 2010 (UTC).
I correct it , in fact chopin was half french and half polish, so I don't understand why people write only polish. What's wrong with french ? Is it francophobia or something like this ? I understand that he was born in Poland but he gained french citizens thanks to his father ( « Tout enfant né d'un Français a l'étranger est Français »). So he was half french, half polish. It's not complicated, except if you have something against the french ....:( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.66.146.209 ( talk) 00:25, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Wiki guidelines: The opening paragraph should have:
THD3 ( talk) 13:02, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Konitski.
1. The Code Napoléon is the law, which - in France - no one is supposed to ignore. If it is necessary to find - not reading it out of the Code itself - that a child born of a Frenchman in a foreign country is French, then I shall endeavour to do so.
2. The Code Napoléon is still in vigor and a child born to at least one French parent (mother included, which was not the case in 1804) outside of France is French.
3. Even if the law had changed, as far as Chopin is concerned, the law applied would have been that of the time he was born, i.e. the 1804 Code Napoléon.
4. If Chopin's father had lost his French nationality, then it would not be written on Chopin's 1837 passport "born of French parents" (in the plural because when Chopin's mother married Nicolas Chopin, she automatically became French.)
5. Leaving Chopin's nationalities out of the lead will not solve the problem because it will always come up, and with good reason: every author, composer, poet, political person is given his/her nationality in first sentence of the lead, so we cannot escape with Chopin.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 18:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Varsovian: Chopin arrived in France in 1831 with probably a Polish Russian passport, which he found difficult to bring himself to renew (in 1834) because he would have had to go to the Russian Embassy in Paris. Polish refugees in France were to either renew their Polish passport (thru the Russian Embassy), or register with the French as "émigrés", which Nicolas Chopin suggested he not do, in a letter to his son dated 7 September 1834. That is when Chopin contacted the French administration & got a French passport - based on the fact that he was born a Frenchman because his father was French, hence the mention on his French passport "né de parents français".
Please forgive me, but I must leave my computer for a few hours & will pick up the discussion later.
Cordialement, -- Frania W. ( talk) 18:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
Based on the above arguments, I conclude that the intro should describe Chopin as being Polish-French. FWIW, similar discussions have taken place in the talk pages of the Vladimir Horowitz and Arthur Rubinstein articles, with similar results. There is another issue with the intro: It's too long. Everything but the top paragrapgh should be integrated into the main body of article. THD3 ( talk) 18:58, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
(UTC)
The ugly bolded Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin should be removed from the lead. Would should the English Wikipedia show Polish translations of the German names Friedrich and Franz, when the composer himself used the French translations? -- Matthead Discuß 19:20, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
And he was born in the Duchy of Warsaw, ruled by Frederick Augustus I of Saxony. If Copernicus is claimed as Polish just because his hometown has allied a few years before his birth with a king of Poland on the occasion of his wedding with a German princess, then Chopin can be claimed as Saxon, too. -- Matthead Discuß 19:28, 22 April 2010 (UTC)
We are beginning to slide off the subject, which should not be what people such as Sand thought of Chopin's Polishness, i.e. the nationality of his soul & his music, but what his actual nationality was according to the civil code (Code Napoléon) in vigor in the Duchy of Warsaw at the time of his birth, which makes it clear that he was French.
We have the following:
P.S. The passport we have here is that issued in July 1837, not that of 1834. At the time, passports were for one year, which means that from 1834 until his last trip outside of France in 1848, Chopin had several French passports. -- Frania W. ( talk) 12:30, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
I have contacted an administrator to request arbitration on this matter. Until that time, let's everybody keep a cool head, and try to espouse a neutral point of view. Remember, this is just an encyclopedia article, it isn't a matter of life & death. However, I feel we owe it to Chopin's memory, especially in his bicentennial year, to get it above a C-class, where it presently resides. THD3 ( talk) 15:29, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
-- Frania W. ( talk) 15:06, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
Kotniski: It has nothing to do whether Chopin (or whoever was acting on his behalf) presumably didn't mention the war when applying for the passport..., The Code Napoléon came out 10 YEARS after Nicolas Chopin's participation in the defence of Warsaw from the Russian army of Alexander Suvorov, and was not applied retroactively. Thus:
That Wikipedia classifies "original research" or whatever ( WP:SYN) what I am doing, I personally do not care because I know that I am right, and I prefer to be right alone than wrong with the crowd. By saying that juridically speaking Chopin is/was French is not taking his Polish nationality & Polishness away from him, it simply gives him what belongs to him. The problem with Chopin is that only musicologists write about him & these respected authors never bothered to look into Chopin's nationality/nationalities; it is not their concern. And because of the tragedies that have befallen the Poles over the years, the French have never come forward in force with their claim & proof that Frédéric Chopin was also French. That is where the problem lies. And it must seem strange that someone with a name such as mine would fight for the recognizance of Chopin as being also French.
-- Frania W. ( talk) 12:26, 24 April 2010 (UTC)
Rlevse, thank you for your take. Like you I have no particular stake in the matter, other than Wikipedia presenting accurate and correct information to its readers. If some want to turn this into "another wiki ethnic war" that is their problem and they may have to be dealt with appropriately. Now lets be clear about one thing, no one to my recollection, no one at this talk page, has contended that Chopin was exclusively French. That is not so. On the other hand many, and they are here at this talk page, want to believe that he is exclusively Polish. Even though it is not true. Interestingly, Marie Curie, who was 100% Polish, is usually considered to be Polish-French when located in most references. Amazingly we are asked to give some kind of undue weight to George Sand saying "he was more Polish than Poland". More weight than the fact that his father was French, born in France. More weight than his baptismal certificate or passport. As for him having lived essentially his whole youth in Poland, he lived most of the rest of his life in France. Neither fact is particularly important in solving how he should be categorized. Copernicus is way too off topic, and due to the lack of information that is often the case with medieval personages can't be of much help here. As for your personal family situation, thanks but it leaves one with a "pick and choose" what you want and doesn't help much either. If Bonnie Prince Charlie can make it on the list of Polish British, I think Chopin being claimed as either French-Polish or Polish-French is not only the best solution, but the only one based on reality. Dr. Dan ( talk) 17:36, 24 April 2010 (UTC)