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Is Santa real?

What is Father Christmas's name in other languages?

Chloe age 6

• Chloe, look at the page for Santa Claus and Christmas worldwide. Those pages should help you out. Cheers, Rowlan 15:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC) reply

• • The equivalent in French is Pere Noel, in Spanish Papa Noel. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

==

Someone has added a whole bunch of Irish/Santa Claus links. I'm not sure I see the relevance of these links apart from someone attempting to push their own political agenda. The page already has a link the Santa Claus page. Any Santa Claus references should be added to that page. I dread to think that someone has added these links to introduce the Ireland/UK debate/argument onto the page. Anyone object to me removing the Irish Santa Claus links? Dbnull 15:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC) reply

==

Suggestion to add a link to the Green Man, there are legends that claim Father Christmas derives from the Green Man. Hence, his original apparel being Green robes. Dbnull 15:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC) reply

==

Wow, for such a prominent article, this needs work. Can anybody provide any sources on this pagan origin? Like, for example, whether it was Anglo-Saxon or Celtic? -- Saforrest 22:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC) reply

==

I read the article and it did not make sense as written. What it says was Father X, Santa & St. Nicolas are the same thing - but they are completely different. I hope the addition makes sense. I was tempted to put in the Danish for father Christmas as Julman (I think that's how its spelt) - however I don't know the history.

==

I think it makes perfect sense. Father Christmas and Santa Claus perform the same role, but have different origins.

-- Greasysteve13 09:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC) reply

No, there are very distinct differences between the 2 figures. Santa Claus has origins from a religious context, Father Christmas has origins from a pagan context. They may have many similarities as their roles have merged through cultural merging over time, but they are distinct figures. As an encyclopedia it would be misleading to join the articles; people searching for information on either figure would be presented with a single article trying to differentiate the two. Maybe, a separate article (disambiguation) could be written that tackles precisely the differences between the two. Each article for Santa Claus and Father Christmas deserves to link to each other, but I would vote against merging the two articles into one. Dbnull 15:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Okay... my mistake... I guess. I'm from Australia where the two terms are synonymous.-- Greasysteve13 06:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) reply

'Father Christmas' is rarely used in Australia, as far as I know (and I've lived in that country since birth in 1953). He's 'Santa Claus' except, in the main, to some very old people. Even Australian author and poet Henry Lawson, writing in the 19th Century, referred to Santa Claus. I would suggest the text of this article be reconsidered. 203.220.141.36 07:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC) reply

Okay. But in Australia the two terms are still synonymous-- Greasysteve13 14:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC) reply

As someone else who lived in Australia for many, many years, I disagree strongly: Father Christmas is very common and just as normal as Santa Claus. Possibly this is not true among young (i.e. very American-influenced) people so much any more, but I wouldn't know how you could count that. As far as I'm concerned they're simple synonyms.

There's very little in this article that differentiates Father Christmas from Santa Claus. As for the historical background, much of it is speculative or irrelevant. It's all very well to assert there is a long tradition, but the evidence prior to the nineteenth-century seems practically non-existent.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:02, 22 May 2011 (UTC) reply

Wasn't "Santa Claus" merely co-opting pagan tradition, just like Christmas itself is an appropriation of pagan festivals? I don't think there's much evidence that Santa Claus was an entirely new invention not based on a pre-existing tradition, particularly since Santa originated in Germanic culture saturated with hangovers from the pagan past. Gymnophoria ( talk) 11:08, 16 April 2012 (UTC) reply

It's hard to justify not merging, given the current state of the article. There is evidence of some early use of the term "Father Christmas" as a personification of the feast, and this personification seems similar to the current character. However, there's nothing substantial about a tradition. This evidence could be incorporated into the Santa article as "predecessor" information. But I think for nationalistic reasons people will campaign for a separate page.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:29, 22 December 2012 (UTC) reply

Hi - in the text it refers to Father Christmas living at the North Pole, in Canada. Traditionally in Britain, Father Christmas lives in Lapland, doesn't he? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.166.171.72 ( talk) 10:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC) reply

I think the Lapland concept has come about from tourism, i.e. it's the northernmost inhabited area that ordinary people can get to. British children still write to him at "The North Pole" Mesdale ( talk) 17:31, 19 December 2013 (UTC) reply

Are you sure? As far as I was aware the North Pole was an American thing. Maybe I am mistaken! Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.166.171.72 ( talk) 09:25, 20 December 2013 (UTC) reply

There still remains very little to distinguish this from the Santa Claus.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:47, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I agree that there could be more, with better research of the early period, but there are already many distinctions in the several sections headed for the periods before the 20th century. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 10:31, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

It would be more convincing if the effort to find (or invent) the distinction wasn't so strained. Most of the early material is dubious original research. I've tried to find sources and found nothing much. This page is just the poor cousin of Santa Claus.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:56, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

What do they say in Scotland then?-- Greasysteve13 06:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC) reply

from my experiance on scotland they call him father christmas. This is the first I've heard of people in scotland not referring to him as father christmas Ydam 23:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC) reply

I thought it was rubbish-- Greasysteve13 14:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC) reply

I live in Scotland and most people I know refer to him as Santa (Claus), not Father Christmas. I'm in Ayrshire. Maybe a regional thing? Duncan McAlister 00:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC) reply

I am Irish (republic) and I have never heard an Irish child call him Father Christmas. The usual term used among English-speakers in Ireland is Santa Claus, Santa or Santy. This is the standard in the mass media here, too. Of course, many Irish children know that "Father Christmas" is what the English call Santa, because they hear that term on British television channels, but it is not well established in popular usage. Mind you, it may well be that children and media in Northern Ireland use the traditional English term. As stated elsewhere, the name "Daidí na Nollag", meaning literally "Daddy of Christmas", is used in Irish Gaelic. I wonder what he's called in Scots Gaelic? And what do the Welsh call him, in English or Welsh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julemand ( talk • contribs) 11:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC) reply

The difference is that Christmas wasn't a big thing in Scotland, except for Catholic families, until the Sixties. So by the time the figure was really on the cultural radar, the American name "Santa Claus" was already increasingly popular even in England. I grew up in Scotland and Santa was the more popular name, certainly by the Eighties (though I was aware that he was also called Father Christmas, and I never thought of it in those days as a specifically English name for him). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.18.21 ( talk • contribs)

Yet another sign of the overwhelming Americanization of the culture of English-speaking Ireland, or just a manifestation of "if that's what the English say, we'd better be different"? As much as I sympathize with the latter sentiment, Daidí na Nollag is, surely, Father Christmas -- not that Hollywoodized "Santa" figure? Don't throw the baby of our common European culture away with the anti-English bathwater, say I (with apologies for the POV-ness, but season's greetings to you all). -- Picapica ( talk) 13:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Apology accepted. I understand your point, but we are not the guardian of culture, any more than we are here to provide a highlight to the ills and injustices of the world. Our task is to document those parts of it that someone else has chosen to guard or illuminate, remaining neutral in the process. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC) reply

By way of further apology, Arcayne, I fully understand your point too: I wasn't really proposing any change to the article as it stands; just airing one of my pet grievances to no practical purpose – as I know one is not supposed to do on a Talk page. (Excess of Christmas spirit..!) -- Picapica ( talk) 19:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC) reply

Yeah, I live in England, and "Santa Claus" is used a lot now. 80.41.116.173 ( talk) 11:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC) reply

I am afraid to say that Father Christmas is never used in New Zealand now. Thanks to the Americans it is always Santa Claus. Royalcourtier ( talk) 05:18, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I am in my 50s from Scotland. Father Christmas has never been used only Santa (Claus). We are all aware in Scotland that Father Christmas is a regional English term. The British media bash on about it but is a purely English term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.146.145.22 ( talk) 18:31, 25 December 2017 (UTC) reply

Please change the picture - use the Father Christmas from The LIon, the Witch, and the Wardrobe instead, I beseech! Das Baz 15:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC) reply

The image on the page at the moment is the traditional American one of Santa, not that of Father Christmas. Can we find a more appropriate one?-- MichaelMaggs 17:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC) reply

Indeed, that image is labelled as 'a classic American image of Santa Claun' on the Santa Article. I've replaced it with the woodcut; it may not look much like people picture Father Christmas nowadays but at least it is him. Mon Vier 19:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC) reply

Multiple links to that Dawn Coperman web article are hardly adequate citation for a claim of pagan origins. Coperman gives no references at all for her claims of a Saxon 'King Winter' or 'King Frost' figure. And a link to a Google Book search with the word 'pagan' highlighted is likewise hardly adequate. Cavalorn 19:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC) reply

previous claims within the history section that evidence of father christmas having pagan origins are scarce, and unlikely are unsourced and not backed up by its citations and personally motivated seeing that this article only had two contrary citations. i have researched and changed this section so as not to be a POV rant. and have specified all pagan origins as just "characteristic" influences to father christmas. which is worthy of the history section. Some thing 19:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC) reply

The page says that "Father Christmas" is used in Australia. I was born in Australia, and have lived here all my life, and have very rarely heard people call him "Father Christmas". We call him "Santa" in Australia. Both names are understood to mean the same 'person' but "Father Christmas" is rarely used. It is similar to the American "Flashlight" and Australian "Torch". Both are the same thing, and we understand both to mean the same thing, but we use "Torch". So back to the point, why does this page say that Australia uses "Father Christmas", and where is the 'evidence' for it? --- 60.240.5.123 01:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC) reply

Well like you just said people do use the term father christmas in Australia. It may not be the predominant term but the article doesnt claim that it is.  YDAM  TALK 08:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC) reply

I'd actually have to disagree. I have lived in Australia my entire life and the only person I have ever heard call him "Father Christmas," and that is my own mother, who was brought up in England. In that sense you could name just about every country, because there's always bound to be a small population of people who call him "Father Christmas" - whichever country you're talking about. 97198 05:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC) reply

I'm a third generation Australian. As a child in the 60s and 70s he was always referred to as "Father Christmas" during local events. Even now the local CFA refer to bringing "Santa" in on the Fire truck as a "Father Christmas run". I'd say we used to call him Father Christmas but with the glut of US based TV on the screens Santa has become the name he is known by.~ Brother William 13:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC) reply

See discussion below.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:58, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I was just thinking about this myself, and have a slight curiosity about it.

I suspect this will never be resolved, and I think it probably depends largely on where you lived, and at what time. My recollection is that, when I was a boy in the 1960s (living in the Adelaide hills), the name was mainly "Father Christmas", not "Santa Claus". I'm not sure if I was *aware* of the alternative name, but, if I was, I probably regarded it as a new-fangled Americanism.

Memory can be a funny thing, and I suppose it's possible I'm mistaken; but certainly I recall "Father Christmas" definitely as being the main, if not only, name during my childhood in the 1950s and 1960s.

Whether one agrees with it or not, there is probably little doubt that "Santa Claus" has now become dominant in Australia. But I don't think it can be asserted with certainty that this has been so in Australia in earlier decades. M.J.E. ( talk) 16:20, 19 December 2018 (UTC) reply

The term 'Father Christmas' is used in translation in many countries
I don't understand what this sentence is supposed to mean ? And maybe these names should be ordered to depict their meaning, like this, for exemple:
Father Christmas: Brazil ("Papai Noel"), Bulgaria ("Dyado Koleda"), France and French Canada ("le Père Noël"),
Saint Nicholas: Hungary ("Mikulás"), Malta ("San Niklaw"),Poland ("Święty Mikołaj"),
Old man of Christmas: Latvia ("Ziemassvētku vecītis"), Lithuania ("Kalėdų Senelis"),
Child Jesus: Mexico ("El Niñito Dios" ("Child God", meaning Jesus)).
Father Frost: Russia ("Ded Moroz"), Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina ("Deda Mraz"); Removed the Father Frost from the Czech Republic info, as it is clearly a Russian tradition. Many Czechs are aware of the existence of the Father Frost, but this is mainly because they are fond of this Russian fairy-tale film "Mrazik" which is on the TV every Christmas. Arguably, there will be merely an insignificant minority of children in the Czech Republic, who actually receive their gifts from this character.
Multiple names used: Spain and some of Spanish-speaking Latin America ("Papá Noel" or "San Nicolás" or "Santa Claus" ), Germany ("Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus"), 'Father Christmas' (and in some cases baby Jesus) is used in preference to 'Santa' in Afghanistan ("Baba Chaghaloo")
Futhermore, althought this information is very interesting, I doubt it should be here - it lists every gift bringing character like Child Jesus, but article is on Father Christmas, maybe it should be in seperate article ? -- Xil/ talk 14:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC) reply

The Danish name, "Julemanden", could be translated literally as "the Yule man" or "the Christmas man". No reference to "father".

I find it strange that the Finnish Joulupukki is simply referred to in the article by the translated name, unlike many of the others. We call him Joulupukki, not The Yule Goat. Vierase ( talk) 08:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC) reply

Some of the names for other countries/ Languages provided do not translate to "father Christmas" or "baby jesus". Some of these figures are not even connected with Christmas, but with other dates, like new year's eve, instead. The last paragraph should be modified to reflect this.

The only source for this is an about.com article which gives no sources or indeed any attempts to back up its assertions. It looks suspiciously like a retrospective creation, along the lines of Margaret Murray or Gerald Gardner. Is there a better source for this? Mon Vier 12:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC) reply

Thank you so very much for getting rid of that stupid illustration and putting in a much better one! A trillion blessings on whoever did it! Erudil 20:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the reference to Gladman's Insurrection, because Gladman was crowned as the Lord of Misrule, not as any equivalent of 'Father Christmas':

"The subsequent defence alleged that the procession was but a Shrovetide sporting, and that Gladman was merely 'crowned as Kyng of Crestemesse'; the riot, however, took place at the end of January, six weeks before any Shrovetide mummery was due; possibly Gladman, who seems to have played the part of 'King of Misrule' annually at the Shrovetide carnival, put on his 'property robes' in a spirit of semijesting riotousness, and was then carried by the temper of the mob further than he had intended." (From britishhistory.ac.uk)

The Lord_of_Misrule is a completely different figure from Father Christmas, and has his own Wikipedia entry. Cavalorn ( talk) 14:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC) reply

Father Christmas vs. Weihnachtsmann (Santa) vs. Nikolaus vs. Babbo Natale ...

at the part "Names in various countries" there ist listet in Germany "Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus". thats def. wrong! the nikolaus (english: Saint Nicholas) is not the weihnachtsmann (english: Santa Claus) - (i will change this later on. perhaps there are also mistakes in other languages ...???). also the polish, russian and other entries of this list are doubtful. (and the inter-wiki-links too). a merging of "Santa Claus" and "Father Christmas" perhaps would be the better way ... hmm. ? thanx, 80.89.110.48 ( talk) 16:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC) (this edit was done by Enlarge ( talk) 10:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC), resigned) reply

Yes there is ongoing confusion as to the distinction between Santa Claus and Father Christmas which could maybe be better explored in a combined article. Citizensmith ( talk) 13:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC) reply

Yup, definitely wrong in teh article. Nikolaus comes on December 6th (or rather in the night between December 5th and 6th), while the Weihnachtsmann comes on the evening of December 24th. Nikolaus puts sweets and sometimes also small presents into the shoes of the children, provided the kids cleaned them and put 'em in front of their door. The kids would then find their Nikolaus gifts in the morning. -- Klaws ( talk) 11:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC) reply

This seems somewhat irrelevant to me. It would be interesting if the works were comparable, but The Father Christmas Letters were never meant for publication. The fact that a character used by Lewis in fiction designed for public consumption appears in writings which Tolkien produced purely for his family's benefit is surely neither here nor there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.221.148 ( talk) 00:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC) It is here and it is there, Sam I am. He wrote those letters for his children, but they were published as a book for everybody eventually. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC) reply

I think that's a valid point, though. The Letters were only published after Tolkein became world famous. The only noteworthy thing about them is they demolish the Coca Cola myth as he drew Father Christmas in a red suit.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC) reply

DBachmann was making a few edits and drew my attention to the fact that there is another article for Santa Claus. The two are interchangeable terms for the same person, and a lot of the information from one article is duplicated in the other. I think that both articles would be better served by merging the two and contrasting the differences of interpretation. Any merger of course would have the appropriate redirects. Because we are moving into that season, this should probably be acted upon after a moderate amount of discussion. I've initiated this same discussion over at the Santa Claus article. Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC) reply

Let's keep the discussion at one place to avoid two simultaneous discussions on the same subject. - TaalVerbeteraar ( talk) 01:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC) reply

"The same figure with the same name exists in other countries (in that country's language), such as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Romania (Romance countries)."

The above paragraph is someone's point of view...yes they do have names with similar meanings however to claim they are the same character is heavily biased as Father Christmas is as much like the Italian version as he is like the American Santa Claus. The above should be changed to something more easily sourced and less biased. Merry Yule! Sigurd Dragon Slayer ( talk) 16:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC) reply

"Father Christmas often appears as a large elderly aged male often around 60 to 70 years old. He is dressed in either a red or green snowsuit trimmed with white fur, a matching hat and dark boots. Often he carries a large brown sack filled with toys on his back"

I'd agree with the elderly man, and the sack of toys, but my childhood (only 30-odd years ago) memory of Father Christmas is that he typically wore a long red gown, and a hooded riding-cloak trimmed with white fur. The jaunty bobble-cap, and the two-piece jacket-and-trousers suit (which is what I assume is meant by "snow suit") is, to me, typical of the modern hybridisation with the (essentially, in British culture) American Santa Claus. Green I don't remember at all - possibly a reference to Dickens' "Spirit of Christmas Present" in "A Christmas Carol", who wears a green cloak? But I can't find sources, not even a snap of me sitting on the knee of a department store "Father Christmas" in the mid-seventies, which I'm sure would prove my point about the appearance of Father Christmas back then being (apart from colour scheme) different to that of the modern Santa. Ghughesarch ( talk) 23:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Isn't it a Red James Bond suit? and a hat with a bobble on it? And no, no green, in Recess (TV series) he's black though and shaves [1].   ←Kala jan→  22:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Nast did not invent the red-suited Santa Claus at all. There were illustrations pre-nast depicting Santa as wearing a red suit. The article is correct in that the Coca-Cola myth is ridiculous fiction, but the assertion that Nast conjured up the red-suited Santa is every bit as dubious and typical of the reprehensible lack of fact-checking so prevalent on this could-be-terrific website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.63.71.96 ( talk) 19:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC) reply

The link to a BBC page supposedly showing that the red clothes/Coca Cola is an urban myth doesn't say anything at all about urban myths. I've moved the link to an earlier part of the sentence. Thomas Peardew ( talk) 10:43, 5 December 2014 (UTC) reply

Listen if a little kid reads this he'll burst out crying (followed by a possible suicide =]) No I really mean it.   ←Kala jan→  22:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). iMatthew // talk // 23:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Additionally, I agree - this article's condition makes me want to swallow a bottle of pills myself. Joking aside, Wikipedia is not censored. Not my rule; its all Wikipedia. We don't sugar-coat it for the minors, any more than we shy away from showing a pee-pee or hoo-hoo, We just do it in a responsible way. Hiding the truth about Santa/Father Christmas/etc. is both unencyclopedic and irresponsible. If your guardians aren't willing to tell you the truth, they should also block Wikipedia, like China does. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Why does China do that?   ←Kala jan→  16:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Because they like need coal in their stocking? ;) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC) reply

Bad news: I've been to China and I could access Wikipedia.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I noticed that Russia and at least one other member of the USSR have the communist Father Winter or Father Frost associated with New Years Day. This is quite interesting and should be explained. I would expect that Christmas itself is making a comeback in those nations. Kitfoxxe ( talk) 19:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC) reply

'Father Christmas typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, but was neither a gift bringer, nor particularly associated with children. The pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history namely Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas and folklore, merged with the British character Father Christmas, to create the character known to Americans as Santa Claus. Like Santa Claus, Father Christmas has been identified with the old belief in Woden (Odin to the Norse)[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11].'

'Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long green fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected as the "Ghost of Christmas Present" in the Charles Dickens's classic A Christmas Carol, a great genial man in a green coat lined with fur, who takes Ebenezer Scrooge through the bustling streets of London on Christmas morning, sprinkling the essence of Christmas onto the happy populace.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetie candykim ( talk • contribs) 13:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC) reply

Then

'Appearance

"Father Christmas" is often synonymous with Santa Claus.Father Christmas often appears as a large man, often around 70 years old. He is dressed in a red or green snowsuit trimmed with white fur, a matching hat and dark boots. Often he carries a large brown sack filled with toys on his back.'

If he wasn't a gift bringer why did he have toys on his back? Sweetie candykim ( talk) 12:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC) reply

No contradiction at all - if you read that again you'll see the paragraphs which refer to him not being associated with gift giving are written in the past tense, thus refering to the historical figure of Father Christmas. The other paragraph is in the present tense, and is talking about his modern incarnation as a fusion of Santa Claus and Father Christmas. missdipsy ( talk) 13:45, 5 January 2011 (UTC) reply

I have doubts on the interpretations this article is giving about the 15th century carols. Rather than "personnifications" of some abstract notion, could not these "sire Christësmas" be alternative names for Child Jesus ?

"My lord" and "our king" are traditional titles for Jesus, aren't they ?

Doesn't "your coming" refer to the coming of Jesus, celebrated on Christmas ?

If so, I do not think we can use these carols as evidence of the existence of a "Father Christmas" who is a character distinct from Jesus.

Teofilo talk 18:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC) reply

It's not really clear what they mean and they don't use the term "Father Christmas" or give any indication of his character.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC) reply

I did a new section on this article about where he appears on Films. So far I got Elf and The Polar Express. Those are my 2 favourites with Santa Claus-- Father Christmas95 ( talk) 18:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC) reply

I have just finished watching an episode of QI in which it was claimed that Father Christmas died on 30 May 1564. Christmas being a common name in Essex and the title "Father" being attributed to anyone old where their first name was not known. The death is apparently recorded in the Register of Deaths in the church at Dedham, Essex. I wouldn't know how to begin to find a satisfactory source for this, but I'm sure someone can - and it should be included in this article. 86.16.134.133 ( talk) 19:44, 11 April 2010 (UTC) reply

Why? It's just a curiosity.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 02:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC) reply

Much of the history section has no definitive connection to Father Christmas (carols, Dickens etc). And the pagan argument is very thin. As belief in Woden died out a thousand years before the appearance of Father Christmas, it's hard to credit that theory. There are a lot of benevolent old men with white beards in world folklore, but that doesn't make them all precursors of FC.

While it wasn't released for publication at the time, the fact is that in the 1920s JRR Tolkein began writing the Father Christmas Letters with a main character very much in the mould of Santa Claus which we know today. There is no indication of how this arose.

Moreover, there is no serious indication of how the tradition of Father Christmas differs from Santa Claus.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:12, 25 April 2011 (UTC) reply

I have deleted most of the remnant of this material.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:14, 21 December 2012 (UTC) reply

There seems no justification for claiming that the Ghost of Christmas Present from A Christmas Carol is Father Christmas. He looks more like a representation of Bacchus in the illustration. The claim seems motivated by a desire to prove the Coca Cola Conspiracy, given the emphasis on his green cloak. Similarly the Ben Jonson character is a personification of Christmas but not in itself a representation of Father Christmas. The same is true for the carols.

The article could mention that there were several personifications of Christmas, but to give them so much prominence is misleading. I think the picture should go.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:48, 22 May 2011 (UTC) reply

I think they should stay, but need teasing out more. The article doesn't distinguish between literary and folkloric characterisations of Christmas. The 15th c. carols, Elizabethan drama, Jacobean masque and 17th c. pamphlet the article cites all belong to the literary tradition, and show 'Christmas' as the personification of a time of communal feasting, drinking and merrymaking. He is always male and usually elderly but he doesn't bring gifts, is not associated with children, has no established distinguishing costume and is not called 'Father'. There's no evidence yet cited that at this early period he was a popular figure in folklore, or that anyone in Britain believed, or taught children to believe, in a supernatural being who would enter the home with gifts at Christmas time. The evidence cited so far for that particular concept doesn't date back beyond the early Victorian era (I'd say the Barclay Fox diary entry shows it was emerging, as his 1842 party featured a figure of an old man called 'Father Christmas' who dresses in red and carries gifts for chidren.) But this is long after the development of continental traditions regarding St Nicholas, or even the American Santa Claus, both of which seem to have influenced the evolution of 'Father Christmas'. RLamb ( talk) 10:12, 23 December 2011 (UTC) reply

I'm not a stickler for Wikipedia rules, but this is a bad example of original research. Editors are trying to uncover an English tradition of Father Christmas by collecting a wide range of folklore, fiction etc which isn't particularly relevant. I think there are 2 courses of action: (1) only keep genuine mentions of Father Christmas, or (2) find a secondary source which links all this stuff together as the figure's prehistory.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 21:36, 27 December 2011 (UTC) reply

Most of this material now deleted.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:15, 21 December 2012 (UTC) reply

I've lived in Australia my entire life(born 1993) and I've never heard anyone refer to Father Christmas as Santa Claus. Everyone I know calls him Father Christmas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.239.159.52 ( talk) 11:33, 9 November 2012 (UTC) reply

Well, I'm 20 years older and Australian and I've heard Santa mentioned all the time!!!-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:10, 24 November 2012 (UTC) reply

Speaking from England I think it depends on how you were brought up, however Santa is an Americanisation of Father Christmas in British terms at least. -- wintonian ^talk 22:20, 8 December 2012 (UTC) reply

That's right. To say "Father Christmas" in Australia sounds British, old-fashioned, and possibly high class. "Santa" on the other hand could be derided as Americanisation. However, it has been used in Australian Xmas songs like "Santa Never Made it into Darwin" (1975) and "Six White Boomers" (1960).-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:08, 9 December 2012 (UTC) reply

The history section is much better now, but paradoxical. We have good evidence for FC emerging in the 1600s, but nothing more until a few brief mentions in the 19th century, and then he emerges in the 20th century as a replica of Santa Claus. Surely there must be something in between.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:01, 26 December 2012 (UTC) reply

Yes he does go quiet in the 18th century. I think FC's had his ups and downs, depending on whether Christmas itself is significant in the national life or not. In the 16th-17th centuries there was the big debate about should we/shouldn't we be celebrating Christmas at all, and Father Christmas emerged as the personification of what was good about the traditional Christmas, - this mild old man in old-fashioned clothes, likes a drink but knows where to stop etc. This seems to have been when the stereotype was established. After the debate calmed down with the decline of puritanism, FC would naturally sink into the background again. This is the historical period for which the article lacks citations.

But evidently he was not forgotten. He must still have been available as a handy stereotype if a writer needed to personify Christmas, because by the early 19th century - when for some unknown reason celebrating Christmas suddenly becomes more important again - FC comes rolling back. The two early 19th c references cited suggest he's still seen as a benevolent but slightly Bacchanalian figure, mainly associated with food and drink. But it's a period when other influences are at work on Christmas. German customs like Christmas trees take off (1841); Dickens has supernatural Christmas spirits in 'A Christmas Carol' (1843); and in 1851 Barclay Fox throws a children's party featuring a Father Christmas figure with a cocked hat, scarlet coat and, significantly, gifts for all the children. Why the gifts for kids? Surely because Father Christmas is starting to blend with Continental or American ideas of Santa Claus. By the late 19th century, as you say, he's almost indistinguishable. (I'd say wholly indistinguishable, except that I can myself recall department-store Father Christmases wearing long, hooded, fur-lined robes rather than jacket, pants and boots.) RLamb ( talk) 19:42, 26 December 2012 (UTC) reply

I'm afraid I don't think the Times letter is a very good source. It isn't clear what tradition the writer is alluding to, if any. And as discussed before, I don't see how Dickens is relevant. In fact, I would tend to believe that FC is merely a copy of the American Santa Claus, except for those 17th century references.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 22:53, 26 December 2012 (UTC) reply

You mean the 1825 Times letter? It says nothing at all about the tradition, it's purely about a scam which poultry sellers used at Christmas time. But it's signed "Father Christmas". That shows that in 1825 there was a figure of that name, associated with Christmas time, well-known enough for British readers to recognise a casual allusion to him. It's possibly significant that the letter is about providing food for the household at Christmas, and not anything to do with providing toys for children. Given that the 17th c. representations of FC mainly use him to represent eating, drinking and merrymaking with your neighbours, it sounds like in the early 19th c. he is still very much that sort of figure. He hasn't yet developed into the flying secret gift-bearer of folklore, who visits your home in the night. But twenty or so years later he's featuring in a party given for children, he's wearing scarlet and he is indeed bearing gifts. So he's changing.

I mentioned Dickens because he wrote that book in the 1840s, when a lot of now-traditional Christmas stuff like the first Christmas card, Christmas cracker, widespread usage of the Christmas tree etc, was happening. It's not surprising if in the same decade Father Christmas began to evolve too. But whether that was due to American influence or North European/German, I can't say. RLamb ( talk) 00:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

All this is very speculative. For all we know the letter-writer just made up the pseudonym and wasn't referring to any tradition at all.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:16, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

The history section is very light on the origin of the story/tradition. I can see from this talk page that there used to be some discussion of possible pagan origins, but this has evidently been deleted since (which is probably a shame). Effort should be put into fleshing out exactly why the story of an old man associated with Christmas - who ISNT Santa Claus - should exist. While I don't think that merging with Santa Clause would aid that, I do think that there needs to be some over-arching discussion of Christmas folklore characters. Fig ( talk) 10:58, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

Actually, having just read the substantially more fleshed out Santa Claus article, I suggest just adding in a link line to Santa_Claus#Predecessor_figures in the history section, as there is no point duplicating the stuff already there. Fig ( talk) 11:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

The problem regarding the ancient origins of FC is, that he doesn't seem to have any. He doesn't exist before the 16th/17th c. This is too late to have deep roots in pagan pre-history. Santa OTOH is plausibly descended from a supernatural figure from pagan traditions, later co-opted into Christian legend: but Father Christmas seems to have begun as a literary figure, mainly used in political/religious debates about whether Christmas celebrations should be done away with. Some time in the mid-19th c, influenced by the increasing popularity of the Santa story, he turns into a similar figure complete with toys, sleigh, reindeer, chimney-visiting, North Pole etc. His origins are not the same though. It would be misleading to let people think there was a tradition of FC running back as far as pre-Christian England and with roots in pagan legend because the citations don't support that. RLamb ( talk) 21:12, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

I think you're generalising from a few scraps of information. There must be other evidence out there. The history section is very weak as it stands, as discussed above. But I agree it is highly unlikely that FC could have pagan origins. (The same is true for Santa, though, if you analyse the evidence.)-- Jack Upland ( talk) 23:11, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

I wouldn't go to bat for the origins of Santa, but regarding FC, don't the citations point one way? There is no evidence for a figure commonly called "Father Christmas" before the debate about changing the way the English celebrate the feast kicked off in the 17th c., when FC was used as pamphleteer's shorthand for "the way we've always done Christmas". I know of no citations from the 18th c. - doesn't mean there aren't any, just that no-one's contributed them yet. But "Father Christmas" is clearly being mentioned in print again by early 19th c. and it seems unlikely the original FC was forgotten and then re-invented, with exactly the same name and function, a hundred years later. The Barclay Fox diary entry is the earliest I've so far seen which shows a red-coated FC being specifically associated with gifts for children: and that comes at the end of a decade which saw the English Christmas evolving into a much more elaborate, socially-important festival, and the widespread adoption of new customs (Christmas trees, cards, crackers). It doesn't seem odd that at this time older foreign folklore about Santa would attach to an existing FC figure. Of course if there's been a serious study of all this by folklore experts, bring it on; it would save us all a lot of worry. But based on the citations we've got, "17th c literary character mutates into Santa figure in Victorian times" still seems the likeliest scenario to me. RLamb ( talk) 07:50, 28 December 2012 (UTC) reply

It's actually tantalising. Without the 17C references, I would say he was a nineteenth century creation, probably linked with Santa Claus. Given that, can we say he didn't exist before the 17C? No, we can't. The Barclay Fox reference should be given more prominence. I think the 1840s is too early for American or Continental influence on British popular culture. It sounds like a native tradition. But where does it come from??? Where is the evidence of the earlier tradition? With regard to the 17C, I think you're overemphasising the "literary" nature of this. Literature can reflect popular tradition. Shakespeare did it all the time. The 17C literary references are close enough to today's FC to believe there is a continuous tradition. But we need evidence of this.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:14, 28 December 2012 (UTC) reply

Well here's one 18th c reference anyway, in a book called Round About Our Coal Fire, or Christmas Entertainments, published in London in the 1730s. (Gale have produced a digitized version of this, available on Amazon.) A 1734 edition of the book is described in some detail in Notes and Queries for December 17th 1859 (see online at: http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/ilej/image1.pl?item=page&seq=1&size=1&id=nq.1859.12.17.8.207.x.481). Chapter titles are given, and Chap. VI is “Of Fairies, their Use and Dignity. Together with some curious Memoirs of Old Father Christmas; Shewing what Hospitality was in former Times, and how little there remains of it at present.” It's the same thing as you find until the 1850s, or so. Till then "Father Christmas" is associated with Christmas feasting and hospitality, not giving presents to children. It's only after the 1850s that he gets Santafied. I blame the Americans. RLamb ( talk) 21:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC) reply

I've now been able to see that book. Unfortunately, FC only appears to be mentioned on the title page. The phrase appears as a kind of subtitle, not as part of Ch 6. It appears to relate to the first chapter which laments the stinginess of gentry at Xmas compared with earlier days. "FC" seems to be a figure of speech, rather than a figure of folklore, rather like "Lady Luck" or "Jack Frost". This appears to be the case with the quote from "Time's Telescope" as well. It is just a fanciful way of saying Xmas...-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:03, 9 January 2013 (UTC) reply

It's a fanciful way of saying 'good old-fashioned Christmas with a lot of food and drink involved.' Interesting they're still using him as a way to attack ungenerous gentry, that takes him back to his roots.

Based on the references we've seen so far, I'd agree that FC did not originate as a genuine folklore figure. Before the mid-19th c I haven't seen any reference to beliefs that he actually existed, or that children were told he existed. He belonged more in what you might call the literary tradition, using the phrase loosely, as a personification of Christmas. I say "loosely" because apart from his appearances in masques and pamphlets, there's also some reference to him as a character in English mumming plays, which are not exactly 'literary' productions. They do verge on folklore, and have long roots. But OTOH the texts of such plays usually get written down pretty late, so FC may have only begun appearing in them after his character acquired all the folkloric baggage of Santa in the mid-19th c, and became more popular. I don't know whether the Santa traditions were borrowed direct from Europe or via US though. I suspect the latter, but I'm a bit doubtful, since Christmas trees obviously came via Germany. That shows the evolving mid-Victorian English Christmas was susceptible to North European influence.

I trawled my favourite source, The Times, for early mentions of Santa. In 1865 there's some kind of show on in London called 'Santa Claus' - doesn't say if it's a play or what, maybe just a children's entertainment with a Santa appearance - and an American troupe had been at the same theatre just the week before. On the other hand the first Times mention of the name is 1861. It's a racehorse owned by a 'Mr Ten Broeck', which sounds Dutch. RLamb ( talk) 19:29, 9 January 2013 (UTC) reply

I've found the same with Australian newspapers (for what it's worth). FC appears fully formed as a folkloric figure in the later stages of the 19th century, Santa Claus under another name. I'll add a reference in for "Round About the Coal Fire". I think you're right about the old fashioned part: "Father Christmas" harks back to the good old days. And the phrase does seem to be a peg on which to hang social criticism, which is not uncommon with personifications. I do think you should expand on that Barclay Fox reference (if you have the source) because that seems pivotal in the transformation.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:59, 10 January 2013 (UTC) reply

Todays Santa is from the 1931 Coca Cola advert. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.101.239.144 ( talk) 23:39, 27 December 2012 (UTC) reply

No, this is a myth. See more information on the Santa page.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 05:38, 28 December 2012 (UTC) reply

The second picture in the article shows a Victorian card with a depiction of an English Father Christmas? Well, granted he's got a greenish robe and treats for the good kids - but his robe seems made of animal skins and he's also carrying a birch rod. So he's technically more a Belsnickel. He's a good example of the ongoing synthesis between imported German/American traditions of a gift-bringer, and the native English personification of Christmas. RLamb ( talk) 09:38, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

Possibly. We need confirmation who this is depicting. And merry Christmas!-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:43, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I suspect that image was included because of the green coat. Is there any historical evidence for the green coat???-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:14, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I think traditionally we blame Dickens, whose second Spirit (Christmas Present) wears, and was illustrated wearing, a loose green robe: "It was clothed in one simple green robe, or mantle, bordered with white fur." But he isn't a 'Father' Christmas because he's young with dark curling hair.

Whether other, earlier references/illustrations exist I don't know. I'm better at searching old newspaper databases than image collections.

Obviously the 17th c pamphlet illustration shows FC in a robe, but that just seems typical gear of the period for an older man of the gentry class. Barclay Fox's 1840-ish Father Christmas effigy made for the kids' party wears a scarlet coat and cocked hat - a get-up that baffled me, because I hadn't seen any references to mumming plays when I read it. Now I suspect Fox had seen a mummers' Father Christmas, because the villagers who did mumming plays had very little in the way of costume and a soldier's scarlet coat was a prized object. The cocked hat would be literally old-hat by the 1840s, so appropriate wear for an 'old man' character.

Until at least the 1970s I would say Father Christmas was often depicted wearing a loose scarlet robe trimmed with white fur. Now I think the Santa Suit is universal. I can put this in a talk page but not in the article. RLamb ( talk) 11:15, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

It is also sometimes said that FC had a hood. For what it's worth, Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters from the '20s and '30s depicts him in a suit, but he does seem to have a hood.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 18:12, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

Yes - the 1970 reference to a robe came from a report ( in The Times, where else ?) of a trial in which the defendant, for reasons best known to himself, appeared in the dock in a 'Father Christmas robe'. AFAIR, the robes did always have a hood and not a separate hat. Though my memory is totally untrustworthy. RLamb ( talk) 18:29, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

That doesn't matter. If you can get your hazy memories reported by a media outlet then they become a reliable source according to Wikipedia policy.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 18:56, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

No, my visual memory is truly bad. So I googled "Father Christmas 2015" images and was surprised to find the hooded robe survives, but always scarlet, and always over a Santa suit. What's more, my finely-tuned English class radar tells me that an upmarket Father Christmas is much likelier to wear a robe than the workaday Santa hanging around outside Poundstretcher. (See Harrod's Father Christmas - a disturbing mash-up of Santa/God the Father/Christ In Majesty.) RLamb ( talk) 12:38, 31 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I think the image should be deleted unless we can confirm that it is an image of Father Christmas.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:10, 22 January 2016 (UTC) reply

I agree that we need something better as a lead image. The upper picture shows a postcard by the English company Raphael Tuck, but the text - with New York coming before London - suggests that the card may have been printed for the US market. The lower image has no provenance at all, and may not be of English origin. Is is said to be 'Victorian', but could easily show a figure other than the English FC: neither the robes nor the architecture look quite right. In any event, both images are well into the 20th century and might still be copyright-protected in the UK, even if US copyright has expired. UK copyright expiry is necessary if the images are to remain on Commons (though if someone wants to transfer them to the English Wikipedia they could remain, as Wikipedia simply ignores UK copyright and relies on US law only). Any suggestions for a better image? I am searching, but haven't found a really good one yet. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 04:52, 23 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Here's an almost identical image which according to this blogpost shows a German postcard. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 05:43, 23 January 2016 (UTC) reply

I've found something more promising which I'll upload in the next day or two.-- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 04:53, 23 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Yes, the text is in German. It looks like RLamb was right.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:16, 23 January 2016 (UTC) reply

There are currently two intertwined problems with the article. Firstly, as pointed out several times, there is no clear-cut distinction with the Santa Claus article. Secondly, as discussed above, there is an attempt in the article to establish (or concoct) the distinction between the two characters: for example, by claiming that Dickens mentioned Father Christmas in A Christmas Carol. This is not neutral. Some people claim there is a distinction. I haven't been able to find any hard evidence. The overwhelming verdict of sources is that Santa Claus and Father Christmas are synonymous. Therefore, the dilemma at the moment is that either this article is merged with the Santa article or it is non-neutral because it asserts on dubious evidence (or none at all) that the two characters are separate.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:41, 27 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I disagree. The primary sources quoted in the article show there were continuous references to Father Christmas from at least the late 16th c., and that he personified aspects of English cultural life - mainly, neighbourly feasting and charity to others at Christmas. This was long before he took on the attributes of the children's gift-bringer of German/American folklore. If it could be shown he only derived from Santa Claus he could be a sub-section of that article. But he didn't. The primary sources show he pre-dates Santa, and current references indicate he is still a cultural meme in England today, appearing under his own name in books, films and department stores. Why have you got this thing about merging him, are you in Santa's pay? Merry Christmas to you too. RLamb ( talk) 09:40, 28 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I agree with RLamb that the sources we have do show the existence of a FC figure or figures which long pre-date any influence from SC. That is a thread of history that merits its own article, even though the old forms became in the 20th century subsumed with the growing US and international SC traditions. Although this article has been improved in the last 12 months, that's not to say that it is very good in its present form. Some changes I'd like to see:

1. A clear statement at the top defining the scope of the article. It should exclude material which relates solely to the modern concept of FC as a synonym for SC. Although many in the UK - perhaps especially older people - will preferentially refer to the modern figure as FC rather than as SC, all modern usages should go into the SC article unless anyone can point to any remaining differences (none are evident from my own knowledge, nor from the article).
2. Remove from the article all modern SC material (eg that he says 'Ho, Ho, Ho')
3. Check the remaining citations for validity. The image of the 'Ghost of Christmas Present' from A Christmas Carol should in my view be removed, or at least de-emphasized, as the implication that Dickens intended this figure to represent FC is unsupported and is thus original research (FC is not mentioned once in the story). Some of the other sources don't look too good, either. Will look into them in some more detail.

-- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 19:59, 28 December 2015 (UTC) reply

No, I'm not a servant of Santa. I'm just struggling to believe in this Father Christmas. I think we have evidence of the term, "Father Christmas", going back centuries, but not a folkloric figure of that name. Does this predate Santa? How old is Santa? Some people argue for pagan origins. As I said, there's a dilemma, and I think Michael has proved my point. To rework the article like that seems like POV-pushing, excluding evidence that FC=SC. It would seem to create a POV fork. Those who want to believe in an English tradition of Father Christmas come here; those who think "Father Christmas" is the English name for Santa, go there.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:43, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I think you've misunderstood my proposal. Where there is (modern) equivalence, there should be one article, and of course that should be SC as he is better known internationally. But there is no POV-pushing (a somewhat offensive term, I feel) in maintaining a separate article about the mostly-British usages of the term FC and the various British personifications. It appears from the sources we have there was no single figure that persisted through the centuries; rather, there were various personifications, not all of which are in the direct line of characters that eventually merged into the modern SC figure. The 19th century folk play figure for example is well sourced and appears not to have been a SC antecedent. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 09:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I apologise. I didn't realise "POV pushing" was considered offensive. I think there is a dilemma and the only way out is more research.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 11:41, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I entirely agree with the need for better research, and the entire article needs more rigour. On the basis that misleading or incorrect references are worse than none, if no-one objects I'm thinking of doing some editing over the next few days to get rid of the dross. Let's see where we end up; it ought to be easier to work to improve a new base text which is more securely sourced. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 11:57, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

Sounds like a good idea.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:12, 30 December 2015 (UTC) reply

I doubt that it is often said that the red suit comes from Coca Cola. Are there any sources for that claim, other than the Coca Cola company itself? Royalcourtier ( talk) 05:14, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

There is a source in the article, and there are more sources in the Santa Claus article. And you can see someone made the claim here in 2012. Eduardo Galeano also made the claim in his book Mirrors (2009) (p 73). The claim is made against the Coca Cola Company. The company actually denies it.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:12, 29 December 2015 (UTC) reply

The article says that the 1931 Coca Cola campaign standardised the red suit. This is belied by the current lead image of a red-suited Father Christmas from 1919. And then there's Tolkien's Father Christmas Letters which was begun in 1920. I think the red suit probably came from Sinterklaas.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:58, 4 February 2016 (UTC) reply

I have removed the citation William J. Federer (2002). "There Really Is a Santa Claus: The History of St. Nicholas & Christmas Holiday Traditions" p. 39. Amerisearch, Inc., 2002, and the text it is said to support, as the book hardly appears to be a reliable source for the subject matter of this article. The book is very US-centric (around 80% is taken up with copies of US presidents' Christmas addresses over the years). The author has very little to say on Father Christmas, dedicating just two paragraphs to him out of 340 pages. The relevant section reads in its entirety as follows:

King Henry VIII, like Martin Luther, recognised the importance people placed on Christmas traditions, but instead of bringing the focus back to the "Christ Child", he introduced a character known as "Father Christmas", which was a reintroduction of "Saturn", the Roman god of plenty. He was pictured as a large man clothed in deep green or scarlet robes lined with fur, bringing peace, joy, good food, wine and revelry, similar to the "spirit of Christmas present" in Charles Dickens' A Christmas Carol. At this time of year, the ancient Romans celebrated "Saturnalia" honoring the pagan deity with a season of merriment, feasting, gift-giving and mending of relationships. Since England no longer kept Saint Nicholas's feast day on December 6th, they moved their "Father Christmas" celebration to December 25th to coincide with Christmas day.

The claim that Henry VIII introduced Father Christmas as a fully-realised figure similar to the one described by Dickens but based on the Roman god is astonishing. If true, I would have expected other sources to mention it. I know of no historic or scholarly source that does so. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 14:35, 4 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Some of the deleted material citing Federer is not actually mentioned in that source at all. It may be possible to add some of it back if other sources can be found. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 14:46, 4 January 2016 (UTC) reply

The Oxford Dictionary of English Folklore seems to have some good material, according to this website. I have ordered a copy, and will do some more editing when it arrives. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 15:04, 4 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Does Federer give any sources for his claims?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 20:34, 4 January 2016 (UTC) reply

The book has two pages of general bibliography (pp340-41 that can be seen on Amazon preview) but there are no sources linked to the text so it's impossible to say where specific statements come from. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 20:58, 4 January 2016 (UTC) reply

According to the current article, the 4th edition (1732) of the "Round About our Coal Fire" chapbook includes the subtitle "With memoirs of old Father Christmas; shewing what hospitality was in former times, and how little of it there remains at present". However, the original reprinted text of that edition, a facsimile copy of which can be downloaded as a free ebook, does not mention FC at all, even in the title. The actual title is simply "Round about our Coal Fire: or, Christmas Entertainments". The latter title is shown on the Amazon UK site, but Amazon US - selling apparently the same facsimile of the same edition - adds the extra Father Christmas mention. I'm assuming that the editions are in fact slightly different, but in the absence of anything more than a title which mentions FC, the reference hardly seems to add much to this article. I have removed the text and reference, but if anyone has access to a university or other academic library login which gives the full text of the FC version, please let me know. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 18:46, 18 January 2016 (UTC) reply

We discussed this back in 2013. I still have a pdf of the book if anyone is interested. That "subtitle" (for want of a better word) appears at the bottom of the table of contents. Frustratingly, there isn't (as far as I can see) any other reference to FC in the text. FC is just a figure of speech. I think the significance of the mention is that it's relatively early.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 00:07, 19 January 2016 (UTC) reply

I'd be interested to see it. Would you be able to email me a copy? -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 06:13, 19 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Sure. What address?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 08:28, 19 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Thanks. If you go to my talk page you should see an "Email this user" link in the tools section of the sidebar. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 09:33, 19 January 2016 (UTC) reply

OK. I couldn't see that because I hadn't added an email address for myself before now.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:53, 19 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Thanks for the copy. I've added back a sentence about the pamphlet. It seems to be a very well known and important source for Christmas traditions generally (and has the earliest known version of the tale of Jack and the Beanstalk), but unfortunately doesn't say anything at all within the text about Father Christmas. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 11:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Yes, that was when I really started losing faith in Father Christmas...-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:11, 22 January 2016 (UTC) reply

I've deleted the text quoted below on the grounds that these are essentially trivial mentions of FC that don't add anything to the historical account. There are hundred of such trivial occurrences of FC that could be included, and as the article is long enough already I think we should concentrate on only the more significant sources.

A writer in "Time's Telescope" (1822) states that in [[Yorkshire]] at eight o'clock on Christmas Eve the bells greet "Old Father Christmas" with a merry peal, the children parade the streets with drums, trumpets, bells, (or in their absence, with the poker and shovel, taken from their humble cottage fire), the yule candle is lighted, and "High on the cheerful fire i]s blazing seen th' enormous Christmas brand."<ref>Dawson, William Francis (2007). [http://www.gutenberg.org/files/22042/22042-h/22042-h.htm#Page_202 The Project Gutenberg eBook, Christmas: Its Origin and Associations] ''[[Project Gutenburg]]''</ref> Again evoking seasonal generosity, a letter to ''The Times'' in 1825, warning against poultry-dealers dishonestly selling off sub-standard geese at Christmas time, is jokingly signed "Father Christmas".<ref>FATHER CHRISTMAS, "Christmas Geese", ''[[The Times]]'' (London, England) dated 24 December 1825, page 4. from The Times Digital Archive, accessed 22 December 2012.</ref>

-- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 15:43, 21 January 2016 (UTC) reply

Does anyone have access to the Daily Telegraph archive? Apparently FC is mentioned in a leader of 25 December 1873. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 09:11, 2 February 2016 (UTC) reply

I've just looked through some 19th century English periodicals for depictions of Father Christmas. This seems to confirm this gist of what the article currently says. There are important differences with today's "Santa Claus" image:

• The crown of holly (or mistletoe etc). This persists into the 1890s. Sometimes it is combined with a hood or pointed cap, but often it is not.
• The staff decorated with greenery, sometimes looking like a Christmas tree.
• The wassail bowl or punch bowl. Occasionally he is shown with bottles or goblets.
• Colour of clothes: the depictions I have seen are black and white, but here are some textual descriptions: blue gown with long red cloak over his shoulder; a long flowing robe of scarlet with cuffs, collar and belt; dressed in white and covered in snow.

For example, "A Musical Charade" (Routledge's Every Boy's Annual, 1871) describes "Old Father Christmas in a long white robe — beard — red face — crown of holly–berries — and big staff surmounted with evergreens". This does confirm the relevance of the "Christmas Carol" image, and does indicate that there is an English Father Christmas, after all. I have collected some references and images, but maybe the article is well-supplied with these already. I do think the article should be changed, though, because it implies that the depiction wasn't standardised in this period. I think it was standardised (apart from the colours), but elements of the standard were very different from today. Also, the text implies that the change happened after the 1840s, but I think it was more gradual than that.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:19, 4 February 2016 (UTC) reply

It's clear from some later 19th century depictions I have (not yet added to the article) that FC in his old form did indeed hang on for much longer than some of the historians thought - probably because they didn't have the advantage of being able to do electronic searches through newspapers and journals. I agree with your conclusions and will make the changes as I add more material. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 09:30, 4 February 2016 (UTC) reply

I think this, from the periodical Fun in 1879, shows a transition in the depiction. Father Christmas is crowned with a wreath. He is holding something like a wassail bowl, but it is full of presents. And, while there are children in the picture, there are also young men attempting to kiss young women under the mistletoe.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 10:09, 4 February 2016 (UTC) reply

A very interesting image, and not one I'd seen. Will definitely slot it in. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 21:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Thanks. I'm not sure the holly crown is "old-style", because I've found the same thing in the 1890s.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:27, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

That's a shorthand for 'in the style that was often used by FC before SC came along'. Could spell that out but don't want too long an image caption. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 09:56, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

It appears that the two characters were never completely separate, even before they merged. The Santa Claus page says that SC partly derived from FC. This seems to be true, as the merry-making fat man image doesn't seem to come from Sinterklaas. For what it's worth, Thomas Nast's seminal illustration has a crown of holly. The English FC was clearly known in the USA. Rose Terry Cooke, who was an American, wrote a poem called "Christmas": "Here comes old Father Christmas, With sound of fife and drums; With mistletoe about his brows..." This sounds more like the FC of Merry England than SC. I don't know the date, but I saw it in an English periodical from 1876.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 06:12, 5 February 2016 (UTC) reply

The extent to which the American SC was influenced by the English FC is interesting, and there must be more to be said than the bald assertion that appears in the Santa Claus article. There has been quite a lot of good US-based research. I've ordered a copy of Restad's well-reviewed book Christmas: A History which I hope can be used to improve the Santa Claus page. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 02:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

I've noticed that all the early American SC depictions have him smoking a pipe, but I haven't seen that with FC in the same period. And where did the reindeer come from?-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:17, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Actually note Dickens' A Christmas Carol (1843) illustration of "Christmas Present". The artist. Leech, originally gave him a red robe - which Dickens rejected (the original watercolour in in New York now [2]). The book cover itself, however, was red - that colour has been long associated with the season, and the title page is in green and red. Dickens also covers the room in greenery - echoing the introduction of the "Christmas tree" in England just three years prior. It appears the fat ghost is an archetype of Santa Claus. The clay pipe is Dutch in origin, not from Coca Cola ads <g>, tough other cultures also seem to show "jolly people" smoking pipes, so that is not clear-cut. Reindeer? Certainly pre-1821. Possibly from Scandinavian traditions, or via Canada. Collect ( talk) 09:46, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Does Santa's reindeer-drawn sleigh pre-date Moore? He was in New York, where the Dutch influence was stronger than German: I can't see though why the Dutch would introduce something as foreign as reindeer into their folk traditions. But was it something Moore learned about from an existing tradition, or simply invented himself? I'm assuming horse-drawn sleighs were familiar to him. American caribou apparently were not domesticated, so it looks as if the reindeer-sleigh motif must have come ultimately from Europe, though perhaps only in the sense that a European/American writer who had read of such transport wove it into his fanciful vision of SC. RLamb ( talk) 12:06, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

"Flying" in the sky definitely predates Moore (who may not have written the poem <g>). Snow is common in the northern US for sure - so use of a sleigh in late December would have seemed logical. By the 1820s, many non-Dutch folk were in New York. One might note that New Sweden (including many Finns and others aware of the reindeer tradition was subsumed by the Dutch in 1655 - and became part of the New York cultural area. Thus Moore would very likely have heard of that tradition (although it may have started with a single reindeer to pull the miniature sleigh!) In fact, the Swedish-Finnish connection at that period was far stronger than any German tradition (which was centered in Pennsylvania). The landing of the Swedes and Finns in 1638 in Delaware was honoured with a postage stamp in 1938. No great stretch here is needed. Collect ( talk) 14:21, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

No, not convinced! (emoji for sticking tongue out and waggling fingers in ears). Come on - the presence of Finns and Swedes in the 17th c. doesn't mean their descendants were still talking about ancestral transport methods in the early 19th c. Unless there's proof Finns and Swedes had a folklore tradition of a Christmas gift-bringer who used a reindeer-drawn sleigh? And that it was extant c. 1820 in the New York area among their descendants, or more recent immigrants. Otherwise Moore, or possibly Moore(?), could just have made it up as a piece of poetic whimsy. He might recently have been reading Scoresby's 'An account of the Arctic regions' (1820) which quotes a description of the inhabitants "travelling on the ice of the sea, in sledges drawn by rein-deer." Or not. It needs more research. But not by me :) I have to say I think this page has been improved hugely from what it was when I last contributed. Congratulations, especially to Michael Maggs. RLamb ( talk) 23:26, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Some of Moore's ideas came from here, but I don't know their ultimate origin. More research needed for the Santa Claus article. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 23:53, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

The Finns and Swedes were in New Sweden from 1638 onwards - and they were in New Netherlands under the Dutch, and noted as such. It is more than reasonable to believe that their traditions were still present in their communities, as they are to the present day. Moore (putative poet) never wrote anything before or after "A Visit" in the same vein, and there is reasonable doubt as to the authorship. The reindeer-drawn sleigh appears likely to be pre-Christian, in fact, and is noted in references on Sami, Finnish and Swedish traditions. And, like mistletoe, and holly, became a Christmas tradition. The naming of the octet does appear to date to "A Visit" and other sets of names have been used by sundry authors (including Baum). Collect ( talk) 23:54, 6 February 2016 (UTC) reply

OK, I've pretty well finished the re-write. I've tried to be guided by proper academic and historical sources, and have been able to eliminate website references (which are very often hopelessly unreliable) almost entirely. I've been quite careful in attempting to comply with WP:V and WP:NOR and to reference every factual statement that could realistically be challenged. I hope you think it's an improvement. -- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 15:56, 18 February 2016 (UTC) reply

It's a far better article. Far, far better. You have removed the concerns that I have held about the article for many years. I haven't proof-read the whole thing, but I will if I get the time. At the moment, I don't particularly like the lead image or the wording about Coca-Cola, but these are very minor issues. You have done a very good job.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 17:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Thanks. I've recently acquired a reader's ticket for the British Library which should help a lot in being able to check original sources that aren't available online.-- MichaelMaggs ( talk) 19:44, 18 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Great job. It's a really good article now. Many thanks - Jamie. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.123.210.215 ( talk) 10:41, 6 November 2017 (UTC) reply

Sorry, I am not used to working on Wikipedia, but I am the one who changed 6 December in 5 December for the date on which in the Netherlands we have Sinterklaas. On that date (5 December) children receive a present in their shoe. In fact that is the date of Sinterklaasavond (Eve of St. Nicolas). So on the evening of 5th December we give presents with self written rhyming poems (sinterklaasgedichten). So the festive event is on 5th December. So it is not on 6th December (which is or was, the official day to commemorate the holy man in the Roman Catholic church; however when the Sinterklaas tradition developed our country was protestant). It is a mistake to mention 6th December for Sinterklaas. In the Netherlands, this is common knowledge. Any child believing in Sinterklaas knows his festive day is on 5 December. Just look at wikipedia: https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinterklaas I hope this helps you. best regards, Jurn Buisman (Netherlands) jaw@buisman.net — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.57.122.147 ( talk) 22:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC) reply

Thanks. I've made the change and added a new source for that information. The previously-cited source was rather ambiguous, and said "In Holland [shoes] were left out for St Nicholas to fill on December 6th". Perhaps the writer intended that to mean that the actual filling took place after midnight - but I agree that stating 5th as the date that shoes are actually left out makes more sense. MichaelMaggs ( talk) 23:02, 28 December 2021 (UTC) reply

Father Christmas as a gift giver predates "Santa Claus". I know that most of the British editors of Wikipedia are morons who often through ignorance despise their own culture, even to the point of thinking that Halloween itself is "American", but Jesus this one should be pretty obvious. 213.107.51.24 ( talk) 12:21, 22 December 2022 (UTC) reply

If you know of reliable sources for that statement that aren't covered by the article, please mention them here. MichaelMaggs ( talk) 14:54, 22 December 2022 (UTC) reply