This article was nominated for deletion on 28 February 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
After reviewing this article, which I first discovered through an inappropriate linking from Covert_incest, I have become further convinced that there are people exploiting this issue to gratify their own personal biases. I fail to see how this article even meets the criteria for inclusion in wikipedia at all, as a small two-person front group for an accused child molestor and his complacent wife, hardly seems a legitimate organization at all. In addition, I'd advise any prudent individuals here to carefully review and verify the references used, as the "criticsm" section of Covert_incest is a hatchet job of of false references created by someone to legitimate their own pro-incest leanings. The only valid reference used there led back to this organization, founded by accused child molestors, so I find it likely that same person has been at work here, as well. Makes one doubt the neutrality somewhat. 71.63.45.9 ( talk) 08:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not see the notification that I posted to your talk page User talk:Pamfreyd. Here is a repeat:
Your attempt on 21 Feb 2007 to edit the Wikipedia article on the False Memory Syndrome Foundation violates numerous Wikipedia policies. Please read the following very carefully:
There are errors in the article.
For instance the opening line should read.
"The False Memory Syndrome Foundation was founded by a group of parents and professionals who gathered on the 1st of March 1992."
I could go into more detail, and point to other errors, but at this point would like to add that the article contains material that is perhaps the result of changes made, perhaps by people who disagree with the aims and objectives of the organization.
Adriaan J.W. Mak member since 1992 of the FMSFoundation Canadian contact for victims of suggestive therapeutic practices DO NOT POST PERSONAL DETAILS ON WIKIPEDIA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.110.113.221 ( talk) 20:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
Edited by OrcaLvr with correct info on the FMSF. I am not related to the organization in any way, shape, or form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcalvr ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The intro stated that J. Freyd had accused her father of sexually abusing her. I've corrected it, because this is not what J. Freyd reports in Betrayal Trauma or any of her interviews or presentations.
Peter and Pamela Freyd became aware that their daughter believed her father had sexually abused her when their son-in law, J. Freyd's husband, confronted them with the fact during a fight. At no point did J. Freyd "accuse" her father of anything.
Peter and Pamela Freyd made this private matter a public one against their daughter's wishes, and it is important that Wikipedia reflects this accurately. -- Biaothanatoi ( talk) 05:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | To find fault with or attribute blame to. | ” |
— wikt:accuse |
Couldn't "after their adult daughter...accused Peter Freyd of sexual abuse" simply be changed to "after they learned their adult daughter...believed Peter Freyd sexually abused her"? It's less ambiguous. I have no direct interest in this controversy and didn't know of FMSF's existence till I searched the phrase "induced memory" today. Don G Taylor ( talk) 19:37, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
This article was nothing but a slash job on the organization, providing claims by very biased sources as if they were facts and presented without full context. This group has Elizabeth Loftus as a member, a hugely respected psychologist, and the facts that the group supports are widely embraced in the field of psychology. A regular person reading this would have come away with the idea that everyone involved in it was a child molestor who had a group to defend themselves with lies.
I've tried to improve the article by getting rid of some of the most outrageous bias and WP:UNDUE weight, but what it really needs is more material to put the topic in overall context. DreamGuy ( talk) 19:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
The same issues regarding the recovered memory theory seem to be addressed reduntantly in multiple articles:
Near as I can tell, there are two opposing views:
What's not clear to me at this point is:
This doesn't look like it's as big a controversy as Mind Control (aka Brainwashing), but I recall it took a few decades for the popular version of the theory to be checked out by scientists; now, courts no longer accept expert testimony by theory proponents. I'm not sure where RM is at this point.
Should I read all the article word for word, or what? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 20:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
In consideration of the above discussion, I've entered a merge and rename proposal regarding the RMT and FMS articles, on the RMT talk page.
This article on the FMSF is not part of the merge proposal, but it is mentioned in that discussion. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Rather than hypothesis in the statement "The FMSF coined the term false memory syndrome to describe their hypothesis that some adults...", with it's scientific and testing implications, how about simply "belief"? I don't think FMS has ever been tested. Thoughts? Also thoughts on the use of the full quote? And finally, "Underwager's statements in that interview have been portrayed as demonstrating he believed pedophilia was acceptable and not necessarily harmful." is sourced to the same reference as the interview itself - is this legit? Presumably the interview and the portrayal would not be combined, what with the linearity of time and whatnot. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 21:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an equally biased, Pro-FMSF version of the article. May include material relevant to balancing the current study. 82.27.229.138 ( talk) 02:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Can we remove the NPOV tag? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've blanket reverted to my previous version. The changes by the anon on September 26th were a mix of good, extra sources, really terrible sources, really terrible partisan sources and the elimination of some formatting, pro-FMSF sources and what I think was neutral wording. I'm trying to work through and re-integrate the good stuff. Among the sources I'm reluctant to use are the Journal of Psychohistory, Treating Abuse Today and a Mindcontrolforums post. I also didn't like the "they claim 18,000 members but the truth is it's only 2,000". The wildly different dates and dubiousness of the sources makes me reluctant to include this at all, and I don't see it as terribly relevant. There's a lot of coatracking for other issues (the Freyds =/= FMSF), but there are definitely some valid points that should be integrated. Assistance is welcome and appreciated. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 16:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This article seem rather tilted towards the children's pov. I see, above, that this his gone around before. I think it would be best for outside eyes to have a look-see. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
It's odd that the article is up for deletion with the claim that it is extremely biased because it was original created by someone with a COI, when the actual article itself had sections horribly slanted against the organization. So horribly slanted that they needed to be removed completely. Having the article outright say that the group misrepresents science, etc. is not acceptable, and for crying out loud the experts like Elizabeth Loftus are the consensus views of the topic on academia right now. The fact that some critics of the group can come along and find a journal run by people who support recovered memory therapy and who then write an article declaring themselves right and that everyone else is anti-scientific just because they say so in no way supports Wikipedia taking their side in the article. Psychology journals and many psychiatrists often come with major amounts of bias. Of course the very people research suggests were using bad therapy techniques to invent memories out of thin air has bad things to say about that research. Wikipedia does not take their side, especially when they are a clear minority and have an obvious agenda. DreamGuy ( talk) 01:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Based on the discussions here, it appears this page had a lot of NPOV violations. As it stands now, however, it appears fairly neutral. Am I missing something? Or, it is perhaps time to remove the tag? JoelWhy ( talk) 15:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Came across this article organically and feel that it smacks of bias against the FMSF. I see from the page here that I'm not the first to feel this way.
A few of the many problematic points:
The goal of the FMSF expanded to become more than an advocacy organization, instead attempting to address the issues of memory that seemed to have caused the behavioral changes in their now-adult children.
This presumes that all members or participants in this organization have experienced this issue first-hand with their own children. It's also unclear and poorly written; after several reads I am still unsure what exactly it's trying to say, and can see several potential anti-FMSF interpretations. It's problematic.
In 1990 Jennifer Freyd (with the support of her grandmother and uncle) privately accused her father of abusing her throughout her teenage years after memories surfaced during treatment by a therapist for issues unrelated to sexual abuse. In 1991, Pamela Freyd published an anonymous first-person (and extremely unflattering to Jennifer Freyd[2]) account of the accusation in a non-peer reviewed journal that focused on false accusations of child sexual abuse.[11] The article was reproduced and circulated widely, including to Jennifer Freyd's department at the University of Oregon. Jennifer Freyd later stated that there were numerous inaccuracies in the article, including the circumstances in which the original memories of abuse and the portrayal of her personal life.
This does not include Pamela's response to Jennifer's claim of inaccuracy, it includes an opinion statement that the articles were "extremely unflattering", it emphasizes that Pamela's publication was anonymous in an attempt to make it appear less credible/authoritative, and includes the statement "including to Jennifer Freyd's department at the Univeristy of Oregon", which is most probably redundant with "wide" circulation and seems to have no relevance to the events as a whole other than to make it appear that Pamela was intentionally seeking to damage her daughters' reputation, which assertion is not sourced or supported in the text of this article.
Generally speaking, the article also seems to include primarily negative episodes and events, while I'm sure an organization of this age has some successful moments to recount (one could, for instance, mention that Paul Lutus has referenced the FMSF multiple times in his writings). It includes criticisms without giving place for response.
Serious rework of the whole thing by qualified, unbiased editors is likely needed. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 00:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Almost all the article is about the Freyds, the initial claim and denial of abuse, and Underwager, and a little about FMS. There's hardly anything about the FMSF. I would say that all of NickBryant's edits make that worse, even though not all are negative (or positive) about the FMSF. And not all are sources quoting the editor's book. Even most of the criticism is about FMS (which should be in that article, not here) and is no longer considered mainstream. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Consider adding to Criticism/Controversies in the article.
Columbia Journalism Review
July/August 1997
Mike Stanton
"Pamela Freyd seems more like the mother and grandmother she is than a revolutionary. But as a founder of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, she has in fact helped revolutionize the way the press and the public view one of the angriest debates in America -- whether an adult can suddenly remember long-forgotten childhood abuse....
....Rarely has such a strange and little-understood organization had such a profound effect on media coverage of such a controversial matter. The foundation is an aggressive, well-financed p.r. machine adept at manipulating the press, harassing its critics, and mobilizing a diverse army of psychiatrists, outspoken academics, expert defense witnesses, litigious lawyers, Freud bashers, critics of psychotherapy, and devastated parents. With a budget of $750,000 a year from members and outside supporters, the foundation's reach far exceeds its actual membership of about 3,000. The Freyds and the members know who we are, but the press knows less than it realizes about who they are, what drives them, or why they've been so successful."
rest of the article at the link.
http://web.archive.org/web/20071216011151/http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/97/4/memory.asp 64.222.209.188 ( talk) 13:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I have read some of the refs. At least some are non RS as not peer reviewed, or even edited for grammar. Read e.g. this:
..." As a nonprofit charity, the FMSF's [!] is required to file it's [!] a tax form every year ..."
Let us review all of these and amend or remove. Zezen ( talk) 08:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
So, the previous source for the foundation's dissolution was very POV. I went searching and only found equally position-pushing articles. In lieu of a better source I've defaulted to the Foundation's page for now, but as a primary source it's strictly speaking not great. If anyone with better search-fu than me knows of some NPOV secondary sources, I'd be grateful. Vaticidalprophet ( talk) 14:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi, so since Wikipedia is the reflection of mainstream science, I am curious why this article does not emphasize more that this syndrome may have been pseudoscience or was, in fact, pseudoscience. Despite the fact that the idea that it exists may be popular as well as controversial, is it mainstream science? RoseSuna ( talk) 01:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The entire intro puts focus on Americans and American society until it reluctantly admits in regaard to false memories and false memory syndrome that"Neither term is acknowledged by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders." The DSM enjoys international collaboration but even it is an essentially American publication, manuscripted, and published by an American Organisation.
Yet in a strained attempt to refute the lack of acknowledgement of False Memory Syndrome's MERE EXISTENCE in the DSM, the intro goes on to cite a "public advisory guidlines relating to mental health" from Canada. The intro does not even pretend to recognize any discrepancy here, which is extremely misleading.
So if the APA refuses to acknowledge the existence of FSM in its DSM, why is this aticle intro pretending trivial public advisories issued in canada are endorsed or even known to exist by the APA?
If this was any other article about any other topic refuting a scientific body as ubiquitously authoratative as the APA, it would be submitted and approved for speedy deletion in less than a day.
If the APA refutes the possibility of false memories being recovered in psycotherapy, and the FSMS organisation exists to refute the veracity of "false" memories, while acknowledging the "behavioral problems" of those who hold "false" memories, the only way this articles insane deliberation in favor of FSMF beliefs to APA's authority can be justified is if this article acknowledges that the "false" memories brought into question by FSMF are not falsely "recovered" in psychotherapy, but are in fact lies being perpetrated by the accusers. without acknowledging this, the "anti-science" nature of this article is both hypocritical, detestable and disinformative.
To say the quiet part out loud: this article and the FMSF as a whole, exist to ensure their accusers are never acknowledged because according to them, they're accusers are lying.
imagine applying this logic to an adult woman who decides to seek justice following a psychtherapy for a sexual assault endured in her recent past, and if wikipedia had an favorably written article about an organisation composed primarily of men, but headed by one of their wives, claiming that some of these women's memories were "falsely implanted" by their psychotherapists. Wikipedia would never allow this, but for some reason, if the abuse alleged by an adult woman is said to have been suffered as a child, its ok for wikipedia to give weight to an organisation, with no scientific backing whatsoever, calling that woman a liar!
This discrepancy is GLARING. It is unexcusable. Wikipedians need to address it.
2600:1700:DF50:A1F0:F505:42DE:1872:F9D7 (
talk) 20:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
What a mess this article was, I see that some editors have been picking away at it, but it was still a mess. This badly needed someone to be bold and remove all the gossip and drama. This is an article about the FOUNDATION and not False Memory Syndrome which is what people keep trying to put into the article. I removed the extensive list of board members and if they were dead or not. It was overly complicated and with the format style (don't mess with it as it is nice and clean now) it is less confusing. Enjoy and please discuss on the talk page if someone wants to make extensive changes. Sgerbic ( talk) 07:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I am disappointed to see the recent major changes reverted. I had been following and editing this page for a while making changes to clarify this organization's purview and the latest bold edit was a major improvement.
In my eyes, the Underwager quote was massive, lengthy, and took over the entire article. Would it be appropriate to take an equally long quote from subsequent explanations of the quote from him per NPOV? No, probably not. Perhaps a mention like other criticisms have been covered would be appropriate (ie, a one or two sentence summary of what happened).
The FMSF was not founded by the Freyds to singlehandedly point a finger at their daughter; it had widespread academic support of researchers, psychologists, concerned researchers, etc. The deleted dog and barking story should have been removed. It is inappropriate to classify gossipy conjecture as relevant. I don't think it is contested that the accusation was the catalyst for the FMSF, but it certainly did not exist until 2019 solely for this purpose given the tens of thousands of contacts through the years. The summary of the beginnings of the organization was sufficient and detailed in the bold edit. I even think it hedges closely to playing with fire with regard to BLP as these are unproven accusations.
Controversial or not, this organization was a major factor in making psychotherapy safer and less dangerous for patients. False memory as a valuable concept would not have come as far as a science without it. There is space for both criticism and praise for the FMSF, and both exists. Ideally, neither would prevail, and a neutral appraisal of the foundation would be possible. I hope we can achieve this. ← 𝐋𝐞𝐟𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝𝐥𝐢𝐨𝐧 04:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Controversial or not, this organization was a major factor in making psychotherapy safer and less dangerous for patients. False memory as a valuable concept would not have come as far as a science without it.
I strongly disagree that this is up for debate.
things like birth or of nonexistent satanic cult activity or recovered entire decades worth of unknown abuse historiesOr abduction by aliens (see John E. Mack and Budd Hopkins), or previous lives (see Ian Stevenson), or even future lives (see "Der Wiederverkörperungsweg eines Menschen durch die Jahrtausende. Reinkarnationserfahrung in Hypnose" a German book by Werner J. Meinhold). Whatever crazy ideas the therapist has, they can make people gain false memories of. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 15:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
so notions about "their" proposed diagnosis is painting with broad strokes.
Another patient exclaimed during a session: “But I feel like I’m just making this up!” Fredrickson ignored her concern. “I urged her to continue, explaining that truth or fantasy is not of concern at the beginning of memory retrieval work.” (Fredrickson, Repressed Memories, p. 17).
"I understand your feelings surrounding the organization, it is never a nice, fun thing engage with subjects that seem to be denying abuse. It does not give me warm fuzzy feelings to do so. However, the nuance required to engage with such subjects necessitates an objective look at how RMT influenced the cultural landscape"
This article was nominated for deletion on 28 February 2012 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
After reviewing this article, which I first discovered through an inappropriate linking from Covert_incest, I have become further convinced that there are people exploiting this issue to gratify their own personal biases. I fail to see how this article even meets the criteria for inclusion in wikipedia at all, as a small two-person front group for an accused child molestor and his complacent wife, hardly seems a legitimate organization at all. In addition, I'd advise any prudent individuals here to carefully review and verify the references used, as the "criticsm" section of Covert_incest is a hatchet job of of false references created by someone to legitimate their own pro-incest leanings. The only valid reference used there led back to this organization, founded by accused child molestors, so I find it likely that same person has been at work here, as well. Makes one doubt the neutrality somewhat. 71.63.45.9 ( talk) 08:00, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps you did not see the notification that I posted to your talk page User talk:Pamfreyd. Here is a repeat:
Your attempt on 21 Feb 2007 to edit the Wikipedia article on the False Memory Syndrome Foundation violates numerous Wikipedia policies. Please read the following very carefully:
There are errors in the article.
For instance the opening line should read.
"The False Memory Syndrome Foundation was founded by a group of parents and professionals who gathered on the 1st of March 1992."
I could go into more detail, and point to other errors, but at this point would like to add that the article contains material that is perhaps the result of changes made, perhaps by people who disagree with the aims and objectives of the organization.
Adriaan J.W. Mak member since 1992 of the FMSFoundation Canadian contact for victims of suggestive therapeutic practices DO NOT POST PERSONAL DETAILS ON WIKIPEDIA —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.110.113.221 ( talk) 20:07, 22 March 2007 (UTC).
Edited by OrcaLvr with correct info on the FMSF. I am not related to the organization in any way, shape, or form. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Orcalvr ( talk • contribs) 04:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The intro stated that J. Freyd had accused her father of sexually abusing her. I've corrected it, because this is not what J. Freyd reports in Betrayal Trauma or any of her interviews or presentations.
Peter and Pamela Freyd became aware that their daughter believed her father had sexually abused her when their son-in law, J. Freyd's husband, confronted them with the fact during a fight. At no point did J. Freyd "accuse" her father of anything.
Peter and Pamela Freyd made this private matter a public one against their daughter's wishes, and it is important that Wikipedia reflects this accurately. -- Biaothanatoi ( talk) 05:41, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
“ | To find fault with or attribute blame to. | ” |
— wikt:accuse |
Couldn't "after their adult daughter...accused Peter Freyd of sexual abuse" simply be changed to "after they learned their adult daughter...believed Peter Freyd sexually abused her"? It's less ambiguous. I have no direct interest in this controversy and didn't know of FMSF's existence till I searched the phrase "induced memory" today. Don G Taylor ( talk) 19:37, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
This article was nothing but a slash job on the organization, providing claims by very biased sources as if they were facts and presented without full context. This group has Elizabeth Loftus as a member, a hugely respected psychologist, and the facts that the group supports are widely embraced in the field of psychology. A regular person reading this would have come away with the idea that everyone involved in it was a child molestor who had a group to defend themselves with lies.
I've tried to improve the article by getting rid of some of the most outrageous bias and WP:UNDUE weight, but what it really needs is more material to put the topic in overall context. DreamGuy ( talk) 19:01, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
The same issues regarding the recovered memory theory seem to be addressed reduntantly in multiple articles:
Near as I can tell, there are two opposing views:
What's not clear to me at this point is:
This doesn't look like it's as big a controversy as Mind Control (aka Brainwashing), but I recall it took a few decades for the popular version of the theory to be checked out by scientists; now, courts no longer accept expert testimony by theory proponents. I'm not sure where RM is at this point.
Should I read all the article word for word, or what? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 20:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
In consideration of the above discussion, I've entered a merge and rename proposal regarding the RMT and FMS articles, on the RMT talk page.
This article on the FMSF is not part of the merge proposal, but it is mentioned in that discussion. -- Jack-A-Roe ( talk) 21:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Rather than hypothesis in the statement "The FMSF coined the term false memory syndrome to describe their hypothesis that some adults...", with it's scientific and testing implications, how about simply "belief"? I don't think FMS has ever been tested. Thoughts? Also thoughts on the use of the full quote? And finally, "Underwager's statements in that interview have been portrayed as demonstrating he believed pedophilia was acceptable and not necessarily harmful." is sourced to the same reference as the interview itself - is this legit? Presumably the interview and the portrayal would not be combined, what with the linearity of time and whatnot. WLU (t) (c) (rules - simple rules) 21:07, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
This is an equally biased, Pro-FMSF version of the article. May include material relevant to balancing the current study. 82.27.229.138 ( talk) 02:50, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Can we remove the NPOV tag? WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 14:27, 16 September 2009 (UTC)
OK, I've blanket reverted to my previous version. The changes by the anon on September 26th were a mix of good, extra sources, really terrible sources, really terrible partisan sources and the elimination of some formatting, pro-FMSF sources and what I think was neutral wording. I'm trying to work through and re-integrate the good stuff. Among the sources I'm reluctant to use are the Journal of Psychohistory, Treating Abuse Today and a Mindcontrolforums post. I also didn't like the "they claim 18,000 members but the truth is it's only 2,000". The wildly different dates and dubiousness of the sources makes me reluctant to include this at all, and I don't see it as terribly relevant. There's a lot of coatracking for other issues (the Freyds =/= FMSF), but there are definitely some valid points that should be integrated. Assistance is welcome and appreciated. WLU (t) (c) Wikipedia's rules: simple/ complex 16:51, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
This article seem rather tilted towards the children's pov. I see, above, that this his gone around before. I think it would be best for outside eyes to have a look-see. Cheers, Jack Merridew 07:20, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
It's odd that the article is up for deletion with the claim that it is extremely biased because it was original created by someone with a COI, when the actual article itself had sections horribly slanted against the organization. So horribly slanted that they needed to be removed completely. Having the article outright say that the group misrepresents science, etc. is not acceptable, and for crying out loud the experts like Elizabeth Loftus are the consensus views of the topic on academia right now. The fact that some critics of the group can come along and find a journal run by people who support recovered memory therapy and who then write an article declaring themselves right and that everyone else is anti-scientific just because they say so in no way supports Wikipedia taking their side in the article. Psychology journals and many psychiatrists often come with major amounts of bias. Of course the very people research suggests were using bad therapy techniques to invent memories out of thin air has bad things to say about that research. Wikipedia does not take their side, especially when they are a clear minority and have an obvious agenda. DreamGuy ( talk) 01:48, 5 March 2012 (UTC)
Based on the discussions here, it appears this page had a lot of NPOV violations. As it stands now, however, it appears fairly neutral. Am I missing something? Or, it is perhaps time to remove the tag? JoelWhy ( talk) 15:45, 4 April 2012 (UTC)
Came across this article organically and feel that it smacks of bias against the FMSF. I see from the page here that I'm not the first to feel this way.
A few of the many problematic points:
The goal of the FMSF expanded to become more than an advocacy organization, instead attempting to address the issues of memory that seemed to have caused the behavioral changes in their now-adult children.
This presumes that all members or participants in this organization have experienced this issue first-hand with their own children. It's also unclear and poorly written; after several reads I am still unsure what exactly it's trying to say, and can see several potential anti-FMSF interpretations. It's problematic.
In 1990 Jennifer Freyd (with the support of her grandmother and uncle) privately accused her father of abusing her throughout her teenage years after memories surfaced during treatment by a therapist for issues unrelated to sexual abuse. In 1991, Pamela Freyd published an anonymous first-person (and extremely unflattering to Jennifer Freyd[2]) account of the accusation in a non-peer reviewed journal that focused on false accusations of child sexual abuse.[11] The article was reproduced and circulated widely, including to Jennifer Freyd's department at the University of Oregon. Jennifer Freyd later stated that there were numerous inaccuracies in the article, including the circumstances in which the original memories of abuse and the portrayal of her personal life.
This does not include Pamela's response to Jennifer's claim of inaccuracy, it includes an opinion statement that the articles were "extremely unflattering", it emphasizes that Pamela's publication was anonymous in an attempt to make it appear less credible/authoritative, and includes the statement "including to Jennifer Freyd's department at the Univeristy of Oregon", which is most probably redundant with "wide" circulation and seems to have no relevance to the events as a whole other than to make it appear that Pamela was intentionally seeking to damage her daughters' reputation, which assertion is not sourced or supported in the text of this article.
Generally speaking, the article also seems to include primarily negative episodes and events, while I'm sure an organization of this age has some successful moments to recount (one could, for instance, mention that Paul Lutus has referenced the FMSF multiple times in his writings). It includes criticisms without giving place for response.
Serious rework of the whole thing by qualified, unbiased editors is likely needed. cooki e caper ( talk / contribs) 00:17, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Almost all the article is about the Freyds, the initial claim and denial of abuse, and Underwager, and a little about FMS. There's hardly anything about the FMSF. I would say that all of NickBryant's edits make that worse, even though not all are negative (or positive) about the FMSF. And not all are sources quoting the editor's book. Even most of the criticism is about FMS (which should be in that article, not here) and is no longer considered mainstream. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:26, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
Consider adding to Criticism/Controversies in the article.
Columbia Journalism Review
July/August 1997
Mike Stanton
"Pamela Freyd seems more like the mother and grandmother she is than a revolutionary. But as a founder of the False Memory Syndrome Foundation, she has in fact helped revolutionize the way the press and the public view one of the angriest debates in America -- whether an adult can suddenly remember long-forgotten childhood abuse....
....Rarely has such a strange and little-understood organization had such a profound effect on media coverage of such a controversial matter. The foundation is an aggressive, well-financed p.r. machine adept at manipulating the press, harassing its critics, and mobilizing a diverse army of psychiatrists, outspoken academics, expert defense witnesses, litigious lawyers, Freud bashers, critics of psychotherapy, and devastated parents. With a budget of $750,000 a year from members and outside supporters, the foundation's reach far exceeds its actual membership of about 3,000. The Freyds and the members know who we are, but the press knows less than it realizes about who they are, what drives them, or why they've been so successful."
rest of the article at the link.
http://web.archive.org/web/20071216011151/http://backissues.cjrarchives.org/year/97/4/memory.asp 64.222.209.188 ( talk) 13:37, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Please take a moment to review
my edit. You may add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it, if I keep adding bad data, but formatting bugs should be reported instead. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether, but should be used as a last resort. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 08:43, 28 March 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on False Memory Syndrome Foundation. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 13:23, 29 December 2016 (UTC)
I have read some of the refs. At least some are non RS as not peer reviewed, or even edited for grammar. Read e.g. this:
..." As a nonprofit charity, the FMSF's [!] is required to file it's [!] a tax form every year ..."
Let us review all of these and amend or remove. Zezen ( talk) 08:29, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
So, the previous source for the foundation's dissolution was very POV. I went searching and only found equally position-pushing articles. In lieu of a better source I've defaulted to the Foundation's page for now, but as a primary source it's strictly speaking not great. If anyone with better search-fu than me knows of some NPOV secondary sources, I'd be grateful. Vaticidalprophet ( talk) 14:14, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
Hi, so since Wikipedia is the reflection of mainstream science, I am curious why this article does not emphasize more that this syndrome may have been pseudoscience or was, in fact, pseudoscience. Despite the fact that the idea that it exists may be popular as well as controversial, is it mainstream science? RoseSuna ( talk) 01:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)
The entire intro puts focus on Americans and American society until it reluctantly admits in regaard to false memories and false memory syndrome that"Neither term is acknowledged by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders." The DSM enjoys international collaboration but even it is an essentially American publication, manuscripted, and published by an American Organisation.
Yet in a strained attempt to refute the lack of acknowledgement of False Memory Syndrome's MERE EXISTENCE in the DSM, the intro goes on to cite a "public advisory guidlines relating to mental health" from Canada. The intro does not even pretend to recognize any discrepancy here, which is extremely misleading.
So if the APA refuses to acknowledge the existence of FSM in its DSM, why is this aticle intro pretending trivial public advisories issued in canada are endorsed or even known to exist by the APA?
If this was any other article about any other topic refuting a scientific body as ubiquitously authoratative as the APA, it would be submitted and approved for speedy deletion in less than a day.
If the APA refutes the possibility of false memories being recovered in psycotherapy, and the FSMS organisation exists to refute the veracity of "false" memories, while acknowledging the "behavioral problems" of those who hold "false" memories, the only way this articles insane deliberation in favor of FSMF beliefs to APA's authority can be justified is if this article acknowledges that the "false" memories brought into question by FSMF are not falsely "recovered" in psychotherapy, but are in fact lies being perpetrated by the accusers. without acknowledging this, the "anti-science" nature of this article is both hypocritical, detestable and disinformative.
To say the quiet part out loud: this article and the FMSF as a whole, exist to ensure their accusers are never acknowledged because according to them, they're accusers are lying.
imagine applying this logic to an adult woman who decides to seek justice following a psychtherapy for a sexual assault endured in her recent past, and if wikipedia had an favorably written article about an organisation composed primarily of men, but headed by one of their wives, claiming that some of these women's memories were "falsely implanted" by their psychotherapists. Wikipedia would never allow this, but for some reason, if the abuse alleged by an adult woman is said to have been suffered as a child, its ok for wikipedia to give weight to an organisation, with no scientific backing whatsoever, calling that woman a liar!
This discrepancy is GLARING. It is unexcusable. Wikipedians need to address it.
2600:1700:DF50:A1F0:F505:42DE:1872:F9D7 (
talk) 20:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
What a mess this article was, I see that some editors have been picking away at it, but it was still a mess. This badly needed someone to be bold and remove all the gossip and drama. This is an article about the FOUNDATION and not False Memory Syndrome which is what people keep trying to put into the article. I removed the extensive list of board members and if they were dead or not. It was overly complicated and with the format style (don't mess with it as it is nice and clean now) it is less confusing. Enjoy and please discuss on the talk page if someone wants to make extensive changes. Sgerbic ( talk) 07:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
I am disappointed to see the recent major changes reverted. I had been following and editing this page for a while making changes to clarify this organization's purview and the latest bold edit was a major improvement.
In my eyes, the Underwager quote was massive, lengthy, and took over the entire article. Would it be appropriate to take an equally long quote from subsequent explanations of the quote from him per NPOV? No, probably not. Perhaps a mention like other criticisms have been covered would be appropriate (ie, a one or two sentence summary of what happened).
The FMSF was not founded by the Freyds to singlehandedly point a finger at their daughter; it had widespread academic support of researchers, psychologists, concerned researchers, etc. The deleted dog and barking story should have been removed. It is inappropriate to classify gossipy conjecture as relevant. I don't think it is contested that the accusation was the catalyst for the FMSF, but it certainly did not exist until 2019 solely for this purpose given the tens of thousands of contacts through the years. The summary of the beginnings of the organization was sufficient and detailed in the bold edit. I even think it hedges closely to playing with fire with regard to BLP as these are unproven accusations.
Controversial or not, this organization was a major factor in making psychotherapy safer and less dangerous for patients. False memory as a valuable concept would not have come as far as a science without it. There is space for both criticism and praise for the FMSF, and both exists. Ideally, neither would prevail, and a neutral appraisal of the foundation would be possible. I hope we can achieve this. ← 𝐋𝐞𝐟𝐭𝐡𝐚𝐧𝐝𝐞𝐝𝐥𝐢𝐨𝐧 04:25, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
Controversial or not, this organization was a major factor in making psychotherapy safer and less dangerous for patients. False memory as a valuable concept would not have come as far as a science without it.
I strongly disagree that this is up for debate.
things like birth or of nonexistent satanic cult activity or recovered entire decades worth of unknown abuse historiesOr abduction by aliens (see John E. Mack and Budd Hopkins), or previous lives (see Ian Stevenson), or even future lives (see "Der Wiederverkörperungsweg eines Menschen durch die Jahrtausende. Reinkarnationserfahrung in Hypnose" a German book by Werner J. Meinhold). Whatever crazy ideas the therapist has, they can make people gain false memories of. -- Hob Gadling ( talk) 15:13, 8 April 2024 (UTC)
so notions about "their" proposed diagnosis is painting with broad strokes.
Another patient exclaimed during a session: “But I feel like I’m just making this up!” Fredrickson ignored her concern. “I urged her to continue, explaining that truth or fantasy is not of concern at the beginning of memory retrieval work.” (Fredrickson, Repressed Memories, p. 17).
"I understand your feelings surrounding the organization, it is never a nice, fun thing engage with subjects that seem to be denying abuse. It does not give me warm fuzzy feelings to do so. However, the nuance required to engage with such subjects necessitates an objective look at how RMT influenced the cultural landscape"