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The page 25 and 37 clearly list SCG seperate from SRB. The source also writes that team has included Montenegrin players such as Boris Zloković, Zdravko Radić, Predrag Jokić, Nikola Janović, Vladimir Gojković. Also in this article, SCG is written under "Editions" section. Pelmeen10 ( talk) 10:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I assume you are referring to
this reference (currently Ref #2). While you are correct that 25 and 37/38 list them separately, the only mitigating factor is that on page 26 it lists them as "YUG/SCG/SRB" for the total medal count of 5. That being said, they are geographically in the same location so that makes a bit of sense. I would argue that unless definitive evidence can be given that FINA counts YUG exactly the same as SRB that it should be separate, much as
the IOC has done (i.e. they have YUG with their own medal count and do not merge it into SRB).
Primefac (
talk) 06:56, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Page 25 lists SRB and SCG separately because it changed its name - one for 2002, other for 2006 and third for 2010. It is the same country, except Montenegro splitting from that country in 2006 referendum and starting from scratch. What is the argument here? Page 37 lists SCG and SRB separately because that section is called "OLYMPIC, WORLD & WORLD CUP CHAMPIONS BY NATIONALITY" (as in name of country at that time). It was split to make it clear for readers what the country was called before 2006 and after. On page 26 "YUG/SCG/SRB" are listed together not just because they are geographically in the same location but because there is continuity of federation and players and coaches. On that same page it clearly shows continuity within table below with 14 titles for YUG+SCG+SRB, all listed together. On page 6 YUG and SRB listed together in section for countries which have 4 titles. On page 15 YUG/SCG/SRB again listed together. On page 16 as well.
- And here's older source which very clearly shows that medals go to Serbia and continuity of water polo in the county, page 37
[1]
Adelbeighou (
talk) 07:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Check the page 29. MNE / MONTENEGRO Until 2006 as SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) and until 2003 as YUG (Yugoslavia). Serbia and Montenegro was a union of two nations, as Montenegrin people are not Serbian.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 15:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- And what is listed as their first national participation on that page? Match against Serbia in 2007. Like I said they started from scratch. After referendum. And what is listed for Serbia on page 37 within that same section? Everything from 1936 till 2010, with SCG and YUG participations. Because Serbia is successor and has continuity. I also think you are confusing terms ethnicity and nationality here which sometimes are overlapping, but I will not go further into identity politics. Adelbeighou ( talk) 16:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Here's another source. At the bottom of this page
[2] you can see all-time medal table where LEN listed all YUG and SCG medals to Serbia.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 16:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- 'Serbia and Montenegro' dissolved, they both declared independence in 2006. Basically you insist we delete 'Serbia and Montenegro' from the medal table. I did show that the sources treat the both countries equally (mention SCG and YUG in both cases).
Montenegro Swimming Federation - len.eu - Year of foundation 1947.
https://www.worldaquatics.com/competitions/749/fina-men-s-water-polo-world-cup-2006/medals - still Serbia and Montenegro - no need to replace it with current countries. I don't think there is any article in Wikipedia that has changed SCG-s medals to Serbia. Water polo:
1
2
3
4
5 (list from
Serbia and Montenegro men's national water polo team) Handball:
1
2 Basketball
1
2
3
4
5. Similar discussions have been held in various WikiProject and article talk pages. Obvously many editors are already tired of it. Including myself.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Only Montenegro declared independance after referendum and it had to start from scratch (new UN member, starting water polo qualifications for B division). Serbia has continuity (kept the seat in UN, continued water polo activities as if nothing happened). I presented source which shows LEN is listing YUG/SCG medals for Serbia, that was asked and that is main issue here. Your claims are ridiculous and dishonest as you constantly misread sources or ignore parts of it when they are not in favor of your arguments. I do not see what are you trying to prove posting those links, when it comes to medals Montenegro record begins with year 2007. Quoting other Wikipedia pages (some of them I only assume edited by you or editors with similar opinions) does not disprove my arguments which I have backed up by sources. You being tired of something is not reason to cease this discussion or ignore my arguments and sources.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- All right, I am going to ask that you both wait for other opinions to be given; you have both seemingly made your points and we will need other opinions to break the stalemate. Primefac ( talk) 18:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- My point is that LEN does not mention the Serbia being the sole "inheritor" of SCG (or YUG for that matter). MNE as SCG and as YUG, or SRB as SCG or as YUG - same. Those notes "as another country" is the same as listing those countries separately in the context of "overall medal table". It is not justified to replace "Serbia and Montenegro" with just "Serbia". The history of Montenegro's federation starts from 1947
[3]. Btw, the links you provided are not even from World Cup.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- FINA sources already quoted above show there is continuity in successes, medals, players etc. for Serbia as explained. They did not start from scratch like Montenegro. Statute from their (Montenegro) official site shows they see themselves as legal successors of Swimming water polo federation of Montenegro [4] which was founded in 1947, but at that time there was only one federation representing country on international level and that was Yugoslavia. I did not just replace SCG with Serbia, I also left note below. Adelbeighou ( talk) 18:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Only Montenegro declared independance after referendum and it had to start from scratch (new UN member, starting water polo qualifications for B division). Serbia has continuity (kept the seat in UN, continued water polo activities as if nothing happened). I presented source which shows LEN is listing YUG/SCG medals for Serbia, that was asked and that is main issue here. Your claims are ridiculous and dishonest as you constantly misread sources or ignore parts of it when they are not in favor of your arguments. I do not see what are you trying to prove posting those links, when it comes to medals Montenegro record begins with year 2007. Quoting other Wikipedia pages (some of them I only assume edited by you or editors with similar opinions) does not disprove my arguments which I have backed up by sources. You being tired of something is not reason to cease this discussion or ignore my arguments and sources.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- 'Serbia and Montenegro' dissolved, they both declared independence in 2006. Basically you insist we delete 'Serbia and Montenegro' from the medal table. I did show that the sources treat the both countries equally (mention SCG and YUG in both cases).
Montenegro Swimming Federation - len.eu - Year of foundation 1947.
https://www.worldaquatics.com/competitions/749/fina-men-s-water-polo-world-cup-2006/medals - still Serbia and Montenegro - no need to replace it with current countries. I don't think there is any article in Wikipedia that has changed SCG-s medals to Serbia. Water polo:
1
2
3
4
5 (list from
Serbia and Montenegro men's national water polo team) Handball:
1
2 Basketball
1
2
3
4
5. Similar discussions have been held in various WikiProject and article talk pages. Obvously many editors are already tired of it. Including myself.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Check the page 29. MNE / MONTENEGRO Until 2006 as SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) and until 2003 as YUG (Yugoslavia). Serbia and Montenegro was a union of two nations, as Montenegrin people are not Serbian.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 15:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- And here's older source which very clearly shows that medals go to Serbia and continuity of water polo in the county, page 37
[1]
Adelbeighou (
talk) 07:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think this needs a quick brief for other users: it looks like there is debate on including medals won by Yugoslavia or former nations from the Yugoslav split, in the medal counts of these two modern countries. Similar discussions have been held before and, as I remember, there is no WP-wide convention because different organisations effectively back-date medals differently. At the Olympics, for example, I believe Czechoslovakia's were all assigned to Czechia. Are there sources only for FINA water polo that show relevant medal counts?
Kingsif (
talk) 21:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Kingsif What are you referring to? In Wikipedia no medals of Czechoslovakia are listed as Czech Republic's. See
All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table#Czechoslovakia &
Czech Republic at the Olympics for the start.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just mean that I've seen IOC lists that don't include Czechoslovakia and have an inflated CR count, and that there is no Wikipedia-wide provision for dealing with the different counts, as you point out. I presume that's why there's a debate here rather than just going with the sources? I'm just trying to suggest methods for finding agreement, I don't have an opinion on this matter (at the moment). Kingsif ( talk) 11:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes there are, those two PDF files mentioned at beginning of this discussion. Adelbeighou ( talk) 18:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- @
Kingsif What are you referring to? In Wikipedia no medals of Czechoslovakia are listed as Czech Republic's. See
All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table#Czechoslovakia &
Czech Republic at the Olympics for the start.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
"Actually, the World Cup will be a replacement for the World League...“The Water Polo World Cup, formerly known as the World League, will feature two qualification tournaments for men and women, then the Super Final.”, FINA announced today." [5]. WC was one tournament held every 4 years (World Championship was qualifications). WL was yearly tournament with qualification tournaments as is this new competition, and it also has Super Final as did WL. It's like FIVB Volleyball World League was replaced by Nations League. Here the problem is the same name as existing/defunct competition. As I see it, World Cup is defunct, WL is "defunct" and NEW WC replaces WL and its history. Setenzatsu.2 ( talk) 14:33, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
|
| This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
| ||||||||||||||
The page 25 and 37 clearly list SCG seperate from SRB. The source also writes that team has included Montenegrin players such as Boris Zloković, Zdravko Radić, Predrag Jokić, Nikola Janović, Vladimir Gojković. Also in this article, SCG is written under "Editions" section. Pelmeen10 ( talk) 10:03, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
- I assume you are referring to
this reference (currently Ref #2). While you are correct that 25 and 37/38 list them separately, the only mitigating factor is that on page 26 it lists them as "YUG/SCG/SRB" for the total medal count of 5. That being said, they are geographically in the same location so that makes a bit of sense. I would argue that unless definitive evidence can be given that FINA counts YUG exactly the same as SRB that it should be separate, much as
the IOC has done (i.e. they have YUG with their own medal count and do not merge it into SRB).
Primefac (
talk) 06:56, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Page 25 lists SRB and SCG separately because it changed its name - one for 2002, other for 2006 and third for 2010. It is the same country, except Montenegro splitting from that country in 2006 referendum and starting from scratch. What is the argument here? Page 37 lists SCG and SRB separately because that section is called "OLYMPIC, WORLD & WORLD CUP CHAMPIONS BY NATIONALITY" (as in name of country at that time). It was split to make it clear for readers what the country was called before 2006 and after. On page 26 "YUG/SCG/SRB" are listed together not just because they are geographically in the same location but because there is continuity of federation and players and coaches. On that same page it clearly shows continuity within table below with 14 titles for YUG+SCG+SRB, all listed together. On page 6 YUG and SRB listed together in section for countries which have 4 titles. On page 15 YUG/SCG/SRB again listed together. On page 16 as well.
- And here's older source which very clearly shows that medals go to Serbia and continuity of water polo in the county, page 37
[1]
Adelbeighou (
talk) 07:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Check the page 29. MNE / MONTENEGRO Until 2006 as SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) and until 2003 as YUG (Yugoslavia). Serbia and Montenegro was a union of two nations, as Montenegrin people are not Serbian.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 15:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- And what is listed as their first national participation on that page? Match against Serbia in 2007. Like I said they started from scratch. After referendum. And what is listed for Serbia on page 37 within that same section? Everything from 1936 till 2010, with SCG and YUG participations. Because Serbia is successor and has continuity. I also think you are confusing terms ethnicity and nationality here which sometimes are overlapping, but I will not go further into identity politics. Adelbeighou ( talk) 16:28, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Here's another source. At the bottom of this page
[2] you can see all-time medal table where LEN listed all YUG and SCG medals to Serbia.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 16:48, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- 'Serbia and Montenegro' dissolved, they both declared independence in 2006. Basically you insist we delete 'Serbia and Montenegro' from the medal table. I did show that the sources treat the both countries equally (mention SCG and YUG in both cases).
Montenegro Swimming Federation - len.eu - Year of foundation 1947.
https://www.worldaquatics.com/competitions/749/fina-men-s-water-polo-world-cup-2006/medals - still Serbia and Montenegro - no need to replace it with current countries. I don't think there is any article in Wikipedia that has changed SCG-s medals to Serbia. Water polo:
1
2
3
4
5 (list from
Serbia and Montenegro men's national water polo team) Handball:
1
2 Basketball
1
2
3
4
5. Similar discussions have been held in various WikiProject and article talk pages. Obvously many editors are already tired of it. Including myself.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Only Montenegro declared independance after referendum and it had to start from scratch (new UN member, starting water polo qualifications for B division). Serbia has continuity (kept the seat in UN, continued water polo activities as if nothing happened). I presented source which shows LEN is listing YUG/SCG medals for Serbia, that was asked and that is main issue here. Your claims are ridiculous and dishonest as you constantly misread sources or ignore parts of it when they are not in favor of your arguments. I do not see what are you trying to prove posting those links, when it comes to medals Montenegro record begins with year 2007. Quoting other Wikipedia pages (some of them I only assume edited by you or editors with similar opinions) does not disprove my arguments which I have backed up by sources. You being tired of something is not reason to cease this discussion or ignore my arguments and sources.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- All right, I am going to ask that you both wait for other opinions to be given; you have both seemingly made your points and we will need other opinions to break the stalemate. Primefac ( talk) 18:34, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- My point is that LEN does not mention the Serbia being the sole "inheritor" of SCG (or YUG for that matter). MNE as SCG and as YUG, or SRB as SCG or as YUG - same. Those notes "as another country" is the same as listing those countries separately in the context of "overall medal table". It is not justified to replace "Serbia and Montenegro" with just "Serbia". The history of Montenegro's federation starts from 1947
[3]. Btw, the links you provided are not even from World Cup.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:52, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- FINA sources already quoted above show there is continuity in successes, medals, players etc. for Serbia as explained. They did not start from scratch like Montenegro. Statute from their (Montenegro) official site shows they see themselves as legal successors of Swimming water polo federation of Montenegro [4] which was founded in 1947, but at that time there was only one federation representing country on international level and that was Yugoslavia. I did not just replace SCG with Serbia, I also left note below. Adelbeighou ( talk) 18:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- Only Montenegro declared independance after referendum and it had to start from scratch (new UN member, starting water polo qualifications for B division). Serbia has continuity (kept the seat in UN, continued water polo activities as if nothing happened). I presented source which shows LEN is listing YUG/SCG medals for Serbia, that was asked and that is main issue here. Your claims are ridiculous and dishonest as you constantly misread sources or ignore parts of it when they are not in favor of your arguments. I do not see what are you trying to prove posting those links, when it comes to medals Montenegro record begins with year 2007. Quoting other Wikipedia pages (some of them I only assume edited by you or editors with similar opinions) does not disprove my arguments which I have backed up by sources. You being tired of something is not reason to cease this discussion or ignore my arguments and sources.
Adelbeighou (
talk) 18:20, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- 'Serbia and Montenegro' dissolved, they both declared independence in 2006. Basically you insist we delete 'Serbia and Montenegro' from the medal table. I did show that the sources treat the both countries equally (mention SCG and YUG in both cases).
Montenegro Swimming Federation - len.eu - Year of foundation 1947.
https://www.worldaquatics.com/competitions/749/fina-men-s-water-polo-world-cup-2006/medals - still Serbia and Montenegro - no need to replace it with current countries. I don't think there is any article in Wikipedia that has changed SCG-s medals to Serbia. Water polo:
1
2
3
4
5 (list from
Serbia and Montenegro men's national water polo team) Handball:
1
2 Basketball
1
2
3
4
5. Similar discussions have been held in various WikiProject and article talk pages. Obvously many editors are already tired of it. Including myself.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 18:05, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- Check the page 29. MNE / MONTENEGRO Until 2006 as SCG (Serbia-Montenegro) and until 2003 as YUG (Yugoslavia). Serbia and Montenegro was a union of two nations, as Montenegrin people are not Serbian.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 15:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- And here's older source which very clearly shows that medals go to Serbia and continuity of water polo in the county, page 37
[1]
Adelbeighou (
talk) 07:51, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- I think this needs a quick brief for other users: it looks like there is debate on including medals won by Yugoslavia or former nations from the Yugoslav split, in the medal counts of these two modern countries. Similar discussions have been held before and, as I remember, there is no WP-wide convention because different organisations effectively back-date medals differently. At the Olympics, for example, I believe Czechoslovakia's were all assigned to Czechia. Are there sources only for FINA water polo that show relevant medal counts?
Kingsif (
talk) 21:12, 27 April 2023 (UTC)
- @
Kingsif What are you referring to? In Wikipedia no medals of Czechoslovakia are listed as Czech Republic's. See
All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table#Czechoslovakia &
Czech Republic at the Olympics for the start.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- I just mean that I've seen IOC lists that don't include Czechoslovakia and have an inflated CR count, and that there is no Wikipedia-wide provision for dealing with the different counts, as you point out. I presume that's why there's a debate here rather than just going with the sources? I'm just trying to suggest methods for finding agreement, I don't have an opinion on this matter (at the moment). Kingsif ( talk) 11:38, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
- Yes there are, those two PDF files mentioned at beginning of this discussion. Adelbeighou ( talk) 18:29, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
- @
Kingsif What are you referring to? In Wikipedia no medals of Czechoslovakia are listed as Czech Republic's. See
All-time_Olympic_Games_medal_table#Czechoslovakia &
Czech Republic at the Olympics for the start.
Pelmeen10 (
talk) 16:51, 4 May 2023 (UTC)
"Actually, the World Cup will be a replacement for the World League...“The Water Polo World Cup, formerly known as the World League, will feature two qualification tournaments for men and women, then the Super Final.”, FINA announced today." [5]. WC was one tournament held every 4 years (World Championship was qualifications). WL was yearly tournament with qualification tournaments as is this new competition, and it also has Super Final as did WL. It's like FIVB Volleyball World League was replaced by Nations League. Here the problem is the same name as existing/defunct competition. As I see it, World Cup is defunct, WL is "defunct" and NEW WC replaces WL and its history. Setenzatsu.2 ( talk) 14:33, 4 July 2023 (UTC)