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Is Luxembourg not a microstate?
Just caught this discussion - I think Luxembourg should be included, if Andorra is. Malta is pretty small too. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Robynthehode has tried to delete a question regarding Luxembourg, which is said to share some of the characteristics of the four microstates identified, namely Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino and Monaco. [1] [2] The question was that if Luxembourg got these characteristics, what about Malta, Iceland, Cyprus or Montenegro? 112.120.39.238 ( talk) 09:59, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
"Because of these special economic policies, the microstates have not joined the European Union but have special agreements with it" How does not joining the EU help the microstates??
I find it amusing that the intro says "no microstate is likely to ever join the EU", and then in the list of microstates, it includes a current EU member (Malta).
Should Kaliningrad Oblast be included as Aland and Feroer? Is Kosovo micro-enough? -- Error 4 July 2005 00:13 (UTC)
Why is the map showing Kosovo as separate from Serbia?? This is very much disputed and this article should not take it upon itself to take positions in the debate. A vast majority of the world still doesn't recognize Kosovo as independent. This map needs to be altered. -- 24.150.77.3 ( talk) 04:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The SMOM has claims to be the smallest state (but many would regard it as borderline). Mount Athos is technically within the EU. Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This area could be developed somewhat. Given the discussion over on the Danzig/Gdansk page I am putting both names in, but in this context the former name is the correct one. Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Berwick-upon-Tweed was never independent, instead it frequently changed hands between soveriegn states. For this reason I have removed it. Sorry, the above was me, I didn't know how to add my username-- Captdoc 10:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I know about one more, Dubrovnik. Jancikotuc 20:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the Republic of Malta (not the same entity as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta) is no longer listed on this page. Considering that it is indeed smaller than some of the other entities listed on this page, there is no good reason for it not to be included. Rhialto 11:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How can five things all be "unique survivors"? I suggest changing this to "the only survivors", "unusual survivors" or "rare survivors" as appropriate. - Trezatium 15:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In fact the whole sentence ("These states are unique survivors of earlier times in European history") is quite meaningless. I suggest cutting it out. Trezatium 18:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
if Åland is to be included, then we don't have much of a choice than to include luxembourg and cyprus. and there wouldn't be a good reason for keeping out montenegro, as it's only a tiny bit larger than Åland. if there are persons who argue luxembourg is not small enough, what do we do about cyprus, montenegro and aland? is it not reasonable to ask that a "microstate" be at least smaller than 10,000km2?
Should not the states that hold Crown dependency status be included here? They are the Isle of Man, the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey. These states are independent of the British government in Westminster but are possessions of the British Crown. They are not members of the European Union. -- Thefrood 19:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, we now have a Dependencies section in which are listed "small autonomous territories, which are under the sovereignty of another state or monarch" - I still think this is wrong, a Crown dependency is not autonomous of the British government it is independent of the British Government having its own legislative, judiciary and executive. The confusion I think comes from the executive branch of government. The executive branch for the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey is the Duke of Normandy and the executive branch for the Isle of Man is the Lord of Mann, both the Duke of Normandy and Lord of Mann have their own Privy councils independent of any Privy council related to the British monarchy. Now just because the holder of the titles Duke of Normandy and the Lord of Mann is also the British monarch does not mean that a Crown dependency is governed by the British monarch. Remember it was the Duke of Normandy that seized the English crown by force of arms in 1066. -- Thefrood 14:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The islands relate directly to the person that is also the British monarch. Queen Elisabeth II is, for example, also head of state in Australia, which nevertheless qualifies as a independant state without doubt. So the link to the British monarch does not contradict independance status in my view. For example, if Great Britain should abolish monarchy, the three islands would probably still remain to be "dependencies" of Elisabeth II (or her successor), while having lost much of their link to the remaining state of Great Britain. If two of the three entities would also abolish monarchy, Elisbeth II or her successor Charles or William could remain to be head of state in the last entitiy, with the title of Duke of Normandy or Lord of Mann (as the case might be. In that situation, there would be little doubt about sovereignity. So why doubt it now? -- Meerwind7
Why are the Canary Islands included as a dependency? Just because they are an autonomous region? All of Spain is composed of autonomous regions. Currently Spain is organized in 17 autonomous communities and 2 autonomous cities. So it makes no sense that the Canary Islands are there. Other regions as, for example, the Basque Country enjoy a higher degree of autonomy. -- Knorpel 03:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Should not the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (it is a British overseas territories located within Cyprus) be included in the Dependencies section? -- Thefrood 14:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I reckon so and I added them. Long live British Cyprus! YourPTR! ( talk) 08:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
How about sealand? It's recognised by the Brit Gov.-- 86.139.49.174 ( talk) 10:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
"Sealand" was annexed by the UK in the 1980's when the UK extended its territorial waters to include the terriotry. "Sealand" is part of Britain. YourPTR! ( talk) 08:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that Republic of Ragusa should not be listed here. There were in the past centuries plenty of small states, especially in Germany and Italy, and none of them is listed here. After the fall of the Holy Roman Empire in 1808, these small states could not even be considered part of the Holy Roman Empire. Laurusnobilis ( talk) 20:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I did two Google Books searches for "micro-state/microstate" and "mini-state/ministate" ( [5], [6]), using the names of the first five states listed in the Microstate article. The results showed that the difference in frequency between these two sets of terms is not significant (187 to 146), according to Wikipedia's naming conventions ( WP:UE, at least). Thus, I thought it proper to give them equal billing in the first sentence. SamEV ( talk) 18:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Cradel, an avid supporter of Kosovo independence, has made it a point to create a map for this article that shows Kosovo as separate from Serbia. This is completely against the spirit of Wikipedia's article on Kosovo which aknowledges that the issues is still highly contested and debated, and that Wikipedia will not make the decision whether to take one side over the other. A vast majority of the world does NOT recognize Kosovo as independent so Cradel is clearly violating Wikipedia's rules. -- 24.150.77.3 ( talk) 00:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't Klaipėda Region belong on this page, under "Historical Small Territories"? I can't find size data, but it would seem to be small enough to qualify. Jperrylsu ( talk) 01:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
We all agree. Thank you
Secondly, just because it takes 30mins to cross Luxembourg it doesn't mean it is not a microstate. I can assure you - it takes longer to cross Malta than Luxembourg..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.221 ( talk) 02:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Man, Guernsey and Jersey are not independent. They have internal self-government, but their foreign affairs are run by the UK government. Also, the UK Home Secretary, as a minister to the Crown, has the right to intervene in the affairs of the islands. While Gibraltar's position is historically and constitutionally different, in practice it is much the same. The sovereign bases in Cyprus are in no sense comparable. They enjoy no self-government whatever and are most nearly comparable to Guantanamo Bay. Escoville ( talk) 15:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
This article reads pretty much like original research from the firt line to the last. Based on what are these six states in particular singled out as microstates? Malta's population is much larger than Iceland's, so I guess it's not population at any rate. Regardless of what it is, it's obvious that it's not sourced. At the moment, all this article represents is some Wikipedia user's opinions about which states are defined as "European microstates", and that is neither interesting nor relevant. Unless some good sources can be found for this artcile, it should be nominated for AfD as there is nothing to suggest it's noteworthy, relevant or even correct. JdeJ ( talk) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the section about the Vevcani municipality, since its independence appears to be no more than a joke. Unlike the other entities mentioned in the article, there doesn't seem to be any serious claim to its being a state or state-like entity. -- Levin ( talk) 18:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems that author abandoned this article so I guess we should rewrite it ourself. I think because there is no clear definition or list of microstates it will be good to put Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco and Vatican as 5 undisputed microstates because they meet all possible criteria (population, area, special relationship with neighbors) and make section about proposed microstates where put Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, Cyprus and Montenegro and discuss why they can be considered as microstates and why not. Please comment what you think about this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
One of the overlooked reasons for the inclusion of Luxembourg (but not Cyprus) as a microstate in English-language sources is size, as measured prior to the late 1970s. The United States, Great Britain, Ireland, and Canada all used the imperial system of measurement far longer than most of the rest of the world, (until the late 1970s at the very least), and Luxembourg is 999 square miles. If a figure of 1,000 square miles was established as the cutoff for a microstate, Luxembourg would qualify, as would Malta; Iceland, Cyprus, and Montenegro would not, as their area exceeds the 1,000 square mile figure. Consider that tables and charts of the 1960s and 1970s listed countries by size in thousands of square miles, with special notation used to indicate those of less than 1,000 square miles; this would be justification to list Luxembourg with the smaller states. Horologium (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Can't the same description be applied to Luxemborg, which was a grand duchy within the Holy Roman Empire? A duchy must be a part of a kingdom or empire; I think that Luxemborg was held to the Holy Roman Emperors, but others may be able to correct me. Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 00:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
"The Holy See is a unique sovereign entity under international law distinct from Vatican City with the pope as the head of both" "Unlike the Holy See, which is sovereign over the Vatican City, the Order has no territory."
Which is it? Is the Holy see distinct or is it the sovereign? The first is quoted from the Vatican city section and the second from Sovereign Military Order of Malta section. They conflict. Is the Holy See landless as first suggested or is it not? Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 05:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Russian-sponsored microstates be mentioned here too, of course with the caveat that almost nobody else recognises them? Or are they not micro enough? I mean Transdnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh. 129.67.116.76 ( talk) 06:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
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I wonder what is the inclusion criteria for European microstates? Why is Malta considered a European microstate? Its population (525,285) is 7-16 times more than the other five European microstates. Malta also has a bigger population than Iceland (366,425) and it is no too far behind Luxembourg (632,275) and Montenegro (621,718) either. Why wouldn't Iceland, Luxembourg, and Montenegro be classified as European microstates too? 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A ( talk) 08:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on 6 March 2009 (UTC). The result of the discussion was keep. |
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Reporting errors |
Is Luxembourg not a microstate?
Just caught this discussion - I think Luxembourg should be included, if Andorra is. Malta is pretty small too. -- MacRusgail ( talk) 15:55, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Robynthehode has tried to delete a question regarding Luxembourg, which is said to share some of the characteristics of the four microstates identified, namely Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino and Monaco. [1] [2] The question was that if Luxembourg got these characteristics, what about Malta, Iceland, Cyprus or Montenegro? 112.120.39.238 ( talk) 09:59, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
"Because of these special economic policies, the microstates have not joined the European Union but have special agreements with it" How does not joining the EU help the microstates??
I find it amusing that the intro says "no microstate is likely to ever join the EU", and then in the list of microstates, it includes a current EU member (Malta).
Should Kaliningrad Oblast be included as Aland and Feroer? Is Kosovo micro-enough? -- Error 4 July 2005 00:13 (UTC)
Why is the map showing Kosovo as separate from Serbia?? This is very much disputed and this article should not take it upon itself to take positions in the debate. A vast majority of the world still doesn't recognize Kosovo as independent. This map needs to be altered. -- 24.150.77.3 ( talk) 04:03, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
The SMOM has claims to be the smallest state (but many would regard it as borderline). Mount Athos is technically within the EU. Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
This area could be developed somewhat. Given the discussion over on the Danzig/Gdansk page I am putting both names in, but in this context the former name is the correct one. Jackiespeel 18:06, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
Berwick-upon-Tweed was never independent, instead it frequently changed hands between soveriegn states. For this reason I have removed it. Sorry, the above was me, I didn't know how to add my username-- Captdoc 10:00, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I know about one more, Dubrovnik. Jancikotuc 20:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the Republic of Malta (not the same entity as the Sovereign Military Order of Malta) is no longer listed on this page. Considering that it is indeed smaller than some of the other entities listed on this page, there is no good reason for it not to be included. Rhialto 11:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How can five things all be "unique survivors"? I suggest changing this to "the only survivors", "unusual survivors" or "rare survivors" as appropriate. - Trezatium 15:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)
In fact the whole sentence ("These states are unique survivors of earlier times in European history") is quite meaningless. I suggest cutting it out. Trezatium 18:31, 24 April 2006 (UTC)
if Åland is to be included, then we don't have much of a choice than to include luxembourg and cyprus. and there wouldn't be a good reason for keeping out montenegro, as it's only a tiny bit larger than Åland. if there are persons who argue luxembourg is not small enough, what do we do about cyprus, montenegro and aland? is it not reasonable to ask that a "microstate" be at least smaller than 10,000km2?
Should not the states that hold Crown dependency status be included here? They are the Isle of Man, the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey. These states are independent of the British government in Westminster but are possessions of the British Crown. They are not members of the European Union. -- Thefrood 19:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, we now have a Dependencies section in which are listed "small autonomous territories, which are under the sovereignty of another state or monarch" - I still think this is wrong, a Crown dependency is not autonomous of the British government it is independent of the British Government having its own legislative, judiciary and executive. The confusion I think comes from the executive branch of government. The executive branch for the Bailiwick of Guernsey and the Bailiwick of Jersey is the Duke of Normandy and the executive branch for the Isle of Man is the Lord of Mann, both the Duke of Normandy and Lord of Mann have their own Privy councils independent of any Privy council related to the British monarchy. Now just because the holder of the titles Duke of Normandy and the Lord of Mann is also the British monarch does not mean that a Crown dependency is governed by the British monarch. Remember it was the Duke of Normandy that seized the English crown by force of arms in 1066. -- Thefrood 14:12, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
The islands relate directly to the person that is also the British monarch. Queen Elisabeth II is, for example, also head of state in Australia, which nevertheless qualifies as a independant state without doubt. So the link to the British monarch does not contradict independance status in my view. For example, if Great Britain should abolish monarchy, the three islands would probably still remain to be "dependencies" of Elisabeth II (or her successor), while having lost much of their link to the remaining state of Great Britain. If two of the three entities would also abolish monarchy, Elisbeth II or her successor Charles or William could remain to be head of state in the last entitiy, with the title of Duke of Normandy or Lord of Mann (as the case might be. In that situation, there would be little doubt about sovereignity. So why doubt it now? -- Meerwind7
Why are the Canary Islands included as a dependency? Just because they are an autonomous region? All of Spain is composed of autonomous regions. Currently Spain is organized in 17 autonomous communities and 2 autonomous cities. So it makes no sense that the Canary Islands are there. Other regions as, for example, the Basque Country enjoy a higher degree of autonomy. -- Knorpel 03:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Should not the Sovereign Base Areas of Akrotiri and Dhekelia (it is a British overseas territories located within Cyprus) be included in the Dependencies section? -- Thefrood 14:23, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
I reckon so and I added them. Long live British Cyprus! YourPTR! ( talk) 08:55, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
How about sealand? It's recognised by the Brit Gov.-- 86.139.49.174 ( talk) 10:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
"Sealand" was annexed by the UK in the 1980's when the UK extended its territorial waters to include the terriotry. "Sealand" is part of Britain. YourPTR! ( talk) 08:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
I think that Republic of Ragusa should not be listed here. There were in the past centuries plenty of small states, especially in Germany and Italy, and none of them is listed here. After the fall of the Holy Roman Empire in 1808, these small states could not even be considered part of the Holy Roman Empire. Laurusnobilis ( talk) 20:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
I did two Google Books searches for "micro-state/microstate" and "mini-state/ministate" ( [5], [6]), using the names of the first five states listed in the Microstate article. The results showed that the difference in frequency between these two sets of terms is not significant (187 to 146), according to Wikipedia's naming conventions ( WP:UE, at least). Thus, I thought it proper to give them equal billing in the first sentence. SamEV ( talk) 18:44, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Cradel, an avid supporter of Kosovo independence, has made it a point to create a map for this article that shows Kosovo as separate from Serbia. This is completely against the spirit of Wikipedia's article on Kosovo which aknowledges that the issues is still highly contested and debated, and that Wikipedia will not make the decision whether to take one side over the other. A vast majority of the world does NOT recognize Kosovo as independent so Cradel is clearly violating Wikipedia's rules. -- 24.150.77.3 ( talk) 00:29, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't Klaipėda Region belong on this page, under "Historical Small Territories"? I can't find size data, but it would seem to be small enough to qualify. Jperrylsu ( talk) 01:32, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
We all agree. Thank you
Secondly, just because it takes 30mins to cross Luxembourg it doesn't mean it is not a microstate. I can assure you - it takes longer to cross Malta than Luxembourg..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.34.140.221 ( talk) 02:29, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Man, Guernsey and Jersey are not independent. They have internal self-government, but their foreign affairs are run by the UK government. Also, the UK Home Secretary, as a minister to the Crown, has the right to intervene in the affairs of the islands. While Gibraltar's position is historically and constitutionally different, in practice it is much the same. The sovereign bases in Cyprus are in no sense comparable. They enjoy no self-government whatever and are most nearly comparable to Guantanamo Bay. Escoville ( talk) 15:36, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
This article reads pretty much like original research from the firt line to the last. Based on what are these six states in particular singled out as microstates? Malta's population is much larger than Iceland's, so I guess it's not population at any rate. Regardless of what it is, it's obvious that it's not sourced. At the moment, all this article represents is some Wikipedia user's opinions about which states are defined as "European microstates", and that is neither interesting nor relevant. Unless some good sources can be found for this artcile, it should be nominated for AfD as there is nothing to suggest it's noteworthy, relevant or even correct. JdeJ ( talk) 14:30, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I've removed the section about the Vevcani municipality, since its independence appears to be no more than a joke. Unlike the other entities mentioned in the article, there doesn't seem to be any serious claim to its being a state or state-like entity. -- Levin ( talk) 18:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
It seems that author abandoned this article so I guess we should rewrite it ourself. I think because there is no clear definition or list of microstates it will be good to put Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, Monaco and Vatican as 5 undisputed microstates because they meet all possible criteria (population, area, special relationship with neighbors) and make section about proposed microstates where put Malta, Iceland, Luxembourg, Cyprus and Montenegro and discuss why they can be considered as microstates and why not. Please comment what you think about this idea. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thorbins ( talk • contribs) 05:10, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
One of the overlooked reasons for the inclusion of Luxembourg (but not Cyprus) as a microstate in English-language sources is size, as measured prior to the late 1970s. The United States, Great Britain, Ireland, and Canada all used the imperial system of measurement far longer than most of the rest of the world, (until the late 1970s at the very least), and Luxembourg is 999 square miles. If a figure of 1,000 square miles was established as the cutoff for a microstate, Luxembourg would qualify, as would Malta; Iceland, Cyprus, and Montenegro would not, as their area exceeds the 1,000 square mile figure. Consider that tables and charts of the 1960s and 1970s listed countries by size in thousands of square miles, with special notation used to indicate those of less than 1,000 square miles; this would be justification to list Luxembourg with the smaller states. Horologium (talk) 04:15, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
Can't the same description be applied to Luxemborg, which was a grand duchy within the Holy Roman Empire? A duchy must be a part of a kingdom or empire; I think that Luxemborg was held to the Holy Roman Emperors, but others may be able to correct me. Ender's Shadow Snr ( talk) 00:43, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
"The Holy See is a unique sovereign entity under international law distinct from Vatican City with the pope as the head of both" "Unlike the Holy See, which is sovereign over the Vatican City, the Order has no territory."
Which is it? Is the Holy see distinct or is it the sovereign? The first is quoted from the Vatican city section and the second from Sovereign Military Order of Malta section. They conflict. Is the Holy See landless as first suggested or is it not? Serialjoepsycho ( talk) 05:56, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Shouldn't the Russian-sponsored microstates be mentioned here too, of course with the caveat that almost nobody else recognises them? Or are they not micro enough? I mean Transdnistria, Abkhazia, South Ossetia and Nagorno Karabakh. 129.67.116.76 ( talk) 06:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
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I wonder what is the inclusion criteria for European microstates? Why is Malta considered a European microstate? Its population (525,285) is 7-16 times more than the other five European microstates. Malta also has a bigger population than Iceland (366,425) and it is no too far behind Luxembourg (632,275) and Montenegro (621,718) either. Why wouldn't Iceland, Luxembourg, and Montenegro be classified as European microstates too? 2001:8003:9008:1301:D986:7DE0:BBC7:6B1A ( talk) 08:47, 5 July 2022 (UTC)