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I'm going to remove this from the Article, because Technocrats do not argue this, and thus the opposition view is pointless.
"The technocrats would agree that, economically, every person would be equal. In this way, they share some communist ideals, but technocrats argue that the post-cold war era has given the term Communism a negative connotation. They say that communism and capitalism are both systems evolved from scarcity, and that mankind has never attempted to implement a system based on abundance. An opponent of technocracy might counter-argue that it is not post-cold war capitalists who have given communism a bad name, but rather communism's own dismal track record which has ruined its credibility as an economic system."
I will attempt to restate it somehow. -- Hibernian 23:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is so poorly written that my initial edits on the top have helped ( skip sievert 17:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC))
This article needs to be renamed. Energy Accounting.( skip sievert 04:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC))
I am suggesting a complete rewrite for this article.
I am posting this here first, because I believe that a rewrite may turn the page into yet another Technocracy edit war. Opinions? -- 77siddhartha 08:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Sidd, someone here is continuing to put up the concept of 'energy credits' I think both you and I have determined from official literature that that term is a misnomer. There are not energy credits or debits in Technocracy. One would have to follow the other, and they do not. That info mostly came from the link I have taken down to Kolzenes site. It uses that term. You have noticed that it is not used elsewhere, except perhaps in the TTCD material I don`t know. That should never be used here or elsewhere. The TTCD. It is controversial. Many hard core Technocrats have rejected it, and it has created a division in the movement that is dramatic. This method records the Energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate. Energy certificates unlike money are used in a Technate for accounting purposes only. Unlike money or currencies, units of energy can not be saved or earned, and will be distributed evenly among a populace. The number of units given to each citizen would be calculated by determining the total productive capacity of the technate and dividing it equally, after basic costs of running the infrastructure are considered. In energy accounting the Technate would use information of natural resources, industrial capacity and citizen’s consuming habits to determine how much of any good or service is being consumed by the populace, so that it would balance production with consumption. The use of 'ENERGY CREDITS' is not described in the design of the Technate The energy certificate is an energy accounting system only. There is no such use of it as a CREDIT. If one has credit, then Q must follow P and thus one must also have DEBIT. The energy certificate does NOT replace Money. It has NO VALUE at all. It can not be saved, Hoarded, or traded. Its only use in the Technate is as an energy accounting system and production and distribution accounting of all goods and service produced. The mere attachment to the Energy Certificate to Credit, debt, or money i.e. medium of exchange is totally erroneous and false. PERIOD! This Technocratic system is referred to as Energy Accounting using Energy certificates. Technocrats point out that energy accounting is not rationing; it is a way to distribute an abundance and track demand. Everyone would receive an equal amount of energy certificates which would far exceed the ability of the consumer to use. Any thing short of that is a Price System. With the name change now to energy accounting, and if the term 'energy credits' is not used here again, its not looking too bad.( skip sievert 22:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC))
Because I do not see that you are right about your statement in your edit. In fact mainstream Technocracy does not use the term 'energy credits'.
"(Reverting, this version, adds nothing of value, and as stated before, Energy Credits are a perfectly legitimate term, used in Tech Inc. documents and commonly used by Technocrats)"
I think you are way off base in your use of the term energy credits. In fact I know you are. The term used is energy certificates. An energy credit is a misnomer in Technocracy of the first order. So how do you justify your use of the term in this article over and over ? ( skip sievert 04:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC))
Quote Enrique Lescure, NET:
" The usership right is a part of the social contract which is the technate. It is physically manifested through an energy certifikate. The available capacity is divided into energy units, which could also be called energy credits although it might be misleading. Why? Because the units, since they most correspond to the available consumption capacity in the technate during a given time period (minus of course usage during said period), would not be possible to save over that period. Instead, the certifikate will be reloaded with a new share more corresponding to the new total production capacity of the technate." http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_jd-wp&Itemid=93&p=7 Network of European Technocrats
I am going to site more examples also from other sources, but I thought it would be interesting to give the NET site, one that I have endorsed, just as an example how energy credits is a misnomer.( skip sievert 02:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
An example of Hibernian referring to a term that does not exist in Technocracy circles, except on a website that was referred to as not a good source in and of itself by the editor Wafulz on Technocracy movement. The deleted material leading from the deleted link was written by Kolzene, and Hibernian is a key player on said website. This self generated, (a wiki editor produced it and it is promoted by another wiki editor)and non connected concept, has no bearing in Technocracy related material. If the TechCa site has not been allowed to present original conclusions on Technocracy movement site, why then here ? Could you monitor this situation Wafulz ? ( skip sievert 14:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC))
In fact Skip, I have offered a defence of the term, I offered it above, and I offered it WEEKS AGO, on the Technocracy Talk page. If you really want me to direct you to a particular citation then check the TTCD here [1], page 68. -- Hibernian 15:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The TTCD is a document that was partially written by an editor here. It is not a reliable source. I read the offered piece above and while it talks about energy certificates, it does not talk about 'credit' except that it is a term that applies to money and not Technocracy concepts. Here is an accurate description of energy certificates, and this is the type of information which should be used in the article. Also it has been brought up that the particular document cited above was edited by an editor here (Kolzene) and is not considered valid by many present and former Technocrats. http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm It is suggested that the link be removed to TechCa, and not used again for reference here in regard to Energy Credits. It is not needed, and the Technocracy Incorporated page archive covers that material, and it is perhaps a tool to drive traffic to a site, instead of an information tool, as to the subject at hand. ( skip sievert 16:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)) The Energy Certificate
Here is another 3rd party link to energy accounting concepts. http://gloryoftechnocracy.blogspot.com/ Glory Of Technocracy ( skip sievert 00:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
What document are you referring to ? Here is the document that has been used to explain energy accounting for decades and it has been updated along the way also, it was updated in the 1960`s as it states in its body, and most other references to energy accounting/certificates are spin offs of this one, some done better and some done worse. http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate -- If you are referring to the TTCD for reasons given ( edited by Kolzene ) that would not be a good document to use here. Also where in it does it talk extensively or about the term 'energy credit' ? As far as I saw it does not. As said energy credit is mostly used as a way to NOT think about energy accounting/energy certificates. I gave a recent statement by NET even why it is not an appropriate term, but in the context offered by past edits here, a misleading term http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_jd-wp&Itemid=93&p=7 Network of European Technocrats. Although this term is used extensively on the TechCa website, that, as you have pointed out is not a good source. While it is possible if someone looks very hard to see a term like energy credit used it has not been cited by example of such here at all. The overwhelming discussion and explanation of energy accounting and energy certificates explanations do no use the term energy credits, usually except as a reference for what it is not. The term 'credit' is a banking money term, and thus confusing in a description of Technocracy. Technocracy does not use money. With the term credit also follows the term debit. They are counter points that exist together. Therefore misleading in the sense of presenting the article as to being understandable.( skip sievert 17:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
An excerpt from the essay above from Technocracy Incorporated, which has been updated from the 1960`s time period from the original 1930`s article, and again the gold standard of explanation of the term energy accounting/energy certificates.
"There might be much said in disposing of Major Douglas' Social Credit theory, Fischer's commodity dollar, Soddy's treatment of monetary structure, and other such schemes. In theory they differ, but in application they all deal in evaluation and therefore must be declared inapplicable in an era of abundance where there are no values. It did not happen that Soddy, an outstanding scientist, came remarkably close to the projection of the unique civilization required in an era of abundance--but ere too late he remembered that he was an English gentleman, inescapably charged with the preservation of all that for which Oxonian tradition stands.
The energy certificate furnishes the molecular mass with a medium whereby it presents its mandate unequivocally and continually to the administrative mechanism, without representation, delegation, referendum, or any other device of previous social administration.
The Energy certificate is the only instrument of distribution which can be used in this Continent's emerging era of abundance.
There can be no era of abundance without a New America.
The energy certificate will be the instrument of distribution in the New America.
I'm confused Skip- why does the TTCD not count as an official source? From what I see, it's hosted on Tech Inc's website, and it is officially endorsed by Tech Inc.- Wafulz 12:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Read what I said on your talk page Wafulz, for the reasons for all this. The TTCD is an official document and Tech Inc. does indeed endorse and offer it. Skip's opinions on it are entirely his own personal bias. -- Hibernian 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I have stated my reasons. I request the help of another admin. editor to over see this page, and thought that the purpose here is to present information that is not colored by wiki editors and their edits. The TTCD was edited by Kolzene another editor here, and Hibernian is his chief poster on a diss blog as you have described blogs in the past wafulz http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. and in general is viewed as discredited information. I also represent CHQ 44.94 -93.29 which is just as official a site as TechInc Washington. Both are legal corporations. Also none of my many issues are being addressed here, and I state again that wafulz is personally involved in this article and biased as is the case with Technocracy movement also. Why is the link to TechCa put up with redundant information on energy accounting as energy credits, when linked info. here already explains it ?, and why is the TTCD link a separate link on both pages when it is already featured on the Techinc Washington home page ? I have a paper copy of the original TTCD, and it does not contain the tagged on concept of Energy Credits on the end of it. That information was inserted several years ago, when wiki editor Kolzene revamped the file. ( skip sievert 14:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC))
It really is not a matter of me liking or disliking anyone. That is something that I do not care to get into, it is a projection by Hibernian that for some reason you are echoing. I consider it provocative for you to echo his thoughts. This document may help to explain how energy credits somehow are misconstrued as energy certificates. My issues other than the mentioned ones are not being addresed, such as the link to TechCa here, and the redundant links on both articles of the TTCD. Also it is my understanding that a recent edit of material by a wiki editor, that is being promoted here is not really appropriate, and the wealth of other information that does not use the concept in question is overwhelming such as this http://www.technocracy.org/technocrat/The%20Energy%20Distribution%20reduced.pdf The Energy Distribution reduced.pdf (application/pdf Object) Really my only interest here is presenting the most accurate, and least conflicting information on the subject which will not confuse or obscure this issue ( skip sievert 15:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC))
I protest your demeaning attitude Hibernian and note that you rely on personal insult to try to make your points. Both links obviously did not belong there in the first place, as the information is available on the Techinc Washington site free of 3rd party hosting by TechCa. The TTCD is a edited document by a current editor here. That means it is self published info. and I think that may be a no no. Any way with all the links I have provided for really good and classic info such as http://www.technocracy.org/technocrat/The%20Energy%20Distribution%20reduced.pdf The Energy Distribution reduced.pdf (application/pdf Object) or http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate, the TTCD edited by Kolzene, and as said many times, a bone of contention among many current and former members, is just not worth linking. Mostly it is recycled info. from the articles I am giving here. The term units is used very often in Technocracy although it is not a descriptive as certificates. If any thing is a substitute for certificates, units is really the very best choice, although both can be used accurately. The articles above use the term. It does not have a monetary meaning, which is confusing to understanding that Technocracy is not a 'value' based system as money is. I will say again that a separate listing of the TTCD is not appropriate on either the Technocracy movement page, or the energy accounting page, as any one interested in that document will find it on Techinc Washington`s website, along with the rest of their archived articles. It is a booklet, or information brief also, as I am the Price System was when it was originally published. So your deleting the I am the Price System article was not appropriate. It is a famous and noteworthy Technocracy writing. To sum up here energy accounting/energy certificates is the main stream representation of the concept in concern here. Another way it is sometimes said is the term 'units' - rarely to ever is it termed 'energy credits'. When a section of this article uses that term over and over perhaps 6 or 7 times in a paragraph of information, it is not only confusing, but the actual concept of what is talked about in relation to the idea of what it really is, is lost in a confusion of connecting those ideas with credit and debit.( skip sievert 02:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC))
Also I have included only the TechInc links for information on energy accounting. ( skip sievert 02:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC))
This article which was slated for a rewrite, and the Technocracy movement article being reviewed still need improvements. Especially the Technocracy movement article.
The article in question from 1955 is widely available in many places, an example of another place it is available is http://technocracy-incorporated.wikispaces.com/ technocracy-incorporated » home - and I could list other multiple places also, at least three more from other sources. A version of it also is here , http://www.technocracyvan.ca/Articles/ScientificTechnologicalDesign.html TechnocracyVan , which may not be a great site in general, but does have pretty much good information. According to TechInc Washington, they approved the material there. Also no doubt it is available from Techinc, and probably in the archive section, which I have not gone through completely to check for it. Again the former reason of Wafulz for dropping links to TechCa was that it is not considered a 'good source' in general, although it does contain some accurate information as many other sites do also. I think that it is pretty hard to go wrong in just referring back to TechInc where much of this information on energy accounting is redundantly offered in information briefs and essays that span many decades, with most of the information repeated mainly in the same way. TechCa is not a unique source of this material.
TechnocracyVan. So despite this being repetitive information, that is covered far better with the links already provided now, this information could be added by the addition of the TechVanCa site. The edited 'out' link repeatedly reinserted by two active editors on TechCa, (Ross Murphy,Bill DesJardin), with self generated information, framed around the actual cited material, could be construed as a device to drive blogging or forum traffic to itself, instead of a pure information link. Also the information as framed by TechCa is not really the originally formatted information with the intro and outro aspect it has on the deleted link. ( skip sievert 17:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC))
" Wafulz did not say that all material from Tech.ca was unacceptable," Hibernian.
I have pointed out where the article is available above. The TTCD is available at the link that already exists to the TechInc site, therefore it is redundant. TechCa has been pointed out as not a good source. This link is dropped as it is repetitive info. from what is already available and already available in multiple sites. http://people.tribe.net/b0455ee2-dab0-4170-8de2-aad4bf963f74/blog My Blog - tribe.net here is another site, and there are multiple others. Here is another, http://technocracy-incorporated.wikispaces.com/ technocracy-incorporated » home and another http://technocracynow.blogspot.com/ Technocracy - The Design of the North American Technate. Also the fact that you your self are an administrator on that site that answers questions, and runs the site would seem to be a case of promoting a special interest. Your name is Icarus, on that site. It would seem to be an attempt to drive traffic to that site, for less than information only reasons. http://www.technocracy.ca/ Technocracy.ca :: Also that site could be interpreted as what has been referred to as a 'diss' blog previously by an editor. ( skip sievert 02:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC))
Conflict of interest guidelines. It violates wiki neutrality guidelines for a person with close ties to an issue to contribute material in a self generated context, concerned with driving readers to a chat or blog site such as http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. It has been noted by an admin editor as 'not a good source'. Wiki is quickly self correcting, partly so that special interest groups are not able to use it as a vehicle of driving traffic to a special interest, close tie. Since you are one of the admin. on the site above, and 'run it' this is a conflict of interest. A no no. So much information, and excellent information is available on this subject of energy accounting, that it is not useful to post to a questionable source, as TechCa, in this context has been referred to. To much baggage of special interest. Since an editor here is obviously a director there. ( skip sievert 02:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC))
I thought other editors were going to be involved in this article, as you have stated your self that you are in to deep, and I assume that means you questioned your objectivity ? I am not edit warring, and I find that you are siding without even getting into the arguments I made on different issues here. Could other editors be brought in to objectively look at the article ? Here is the front end of their site wafulz, and no, someone would not have to "go quite a ways into their site to find a thread about you", as you say. It is on the cover. http://www.technocracy.ca/ Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. Also I was only restoring the edit you did. You took off that link recently to the TechCa site. ( skip sievert 01:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC))
Here is proof positive of that. " Now, RE: Energy Accounting. You are spouting the same semantics that Skip is. Yes, "energy credits" is a somewhat misleading term. However, until the appropriate materials can be rewritten in a more modern context, we are stuck with it. Raging like Skip is against it is in very poor taste and doesn't help anyone. Let me give you a little advice from Technocracy's Operating Instructions #7: Guide for Writers: "Preserve an attitude of cool and detached dignity, without emotionalizing, and without indulgence in personalities." Why is this? Because doing otherwise hurts your credibility. This is why nobody listens to Skip, and why you are getting such bad response here as well. I know that it may seem like it is the fault of others, but you have to take responsibility for your own actions.
If you must know I agree that "credit" is not the best term for it, and should be purged from Technocracy material. But right now it is all the material we have, so until we get enough talented and knowledgeable writers to rewrite everything from scratch, the best thing you can do is simply clarify the discrepancy to those people who are confused by the term " end quote, Kolzene, a wiki editor here, and the administrator of TechCa. I think this sums up the problem of energy credits very well. It makes sense to make this more clear to the public. Here is a link to Bills, (Kolzenes) statement in part 3. http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. ( skip sievert 02:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC))
Ok, as much as I hate to continue a split discussion, what I have to say is more relevant here. Skip's reason for taking out the term "credit" was based on things I said on another web page. In those things I never agreed that changing anything on Wikipedia was appropriate (see the Talk Page for Technocracy Movement for my reply to that). If anything, I would be for the removal of (or significant change in reference to) the term "certificate". The reason is that the article states that "The units of this accounting system would be known as Energy Credits, Energy Certificates, or simply Energy Units." This is inaccurate. The units themselves would be the same as any other scientific unit for the measure of energy (e.g. ergs, joules, kilowatt-hours, etc.). The "Energy Certificate" was merely a device to be used in the accounting system, easily replaceable by anything superior (such as debit-style cards or microchips). This is an important distinction and should be made clear in the article. However, like I said in the other Talk Page, until Technocracy Inc. changes its publications and nomenclature, the purpose of this article to to reflect what they themselves are proposing, not to correct them by removing the term "credit". As for his removal of the link to the Energy Accounting Information Brief on technocracy.ca, that was not explained by him, and as it is a useful article on the matter, it should remain. Even if Skip decides to use his standard argument that everything on technocracy.ca is useless and/or misleading, then I would ask why he is using a post I wrote there as his "proof positive" to support his argument? -- Kolzene 13:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
( skip sievert 17:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC))
http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate an original copy and a reedited copy, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfx7rfr2_93dqt642 The Energy Certificate/Energy Accounting.Technocracy system. The predominent terminology as to energy certificate energy accounting. Lets keep it simple, and easy to understand. Energy Certificate is the term that is most easily understandable and the one that is used in most of the literature. ( skip sievert 21:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC))
How is it that Ross Murphy or Hibernian continues to take down the link to Willard Gibbs and also to the group that originated the concept and published the concept of Energy Accounting , Technocracy Incorporated.
It could be suspected that user may be trying to filter people into a commercial site run by Network of European Technocrats. Hibernian is a member of that site and a proponent of that site which is a commercial site. http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=85&Itemid=65 Network of European Technocrats - Ross Murphy
In appearance directing people to NET and publishing info that leads to them is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. skip sievert ( talk) 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
To the Fezer essay to this article... http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate] An article on Energy Accounting as proposed by Technocracy Inc. This article had zero references before. Please add other citations and references. skip sievert ( talk) 15:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Added two more reference citations to article. skip sievert ( talk) 15:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I find this article unbalanced and confusing, and have tagged it accordingly. If one googles on energy accounting, it seems to be a general concept (compare with environmental accounting), not just a concept within the school of Technocracy Incorporated. Being a nonexpert in this area, it's really confusing to read this article. Is it a general concept which have acceptance among academics, or is it just part of the ideology of Tech. Inc? If it is the former, then this article talks way too much about technates. Especially, the beginning paragraph needs to be changed. Energy accounting in the context of Tech. Inc. maybe could have it's own article, e.g. Energy accounting (concept within Technocracy Incorporated) or something similar. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 18:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Marten's general comment that the article is "unbalanced and confusing". Please let him put tags in place which reflect this. This is the normal process on WP, and by no means a "last resort". Taking an article to WP:AfD is a last resort. Maybe if some improvements are made to this article we can avoid that. Johnfos ( talk) 03:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I've had a closer look at the article now. As the tags suggest, there are some problems. Much of the content is either unsourced, or already appears in other articles. For example, this paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated:
Energy economics relating to thermoeconomics, is a broad scientific subject area which includes topics related to supply and use of energy in societies. Thermoeconomists argue that economic systems always involve matter, energy, entropy, and information.[3] Moreover, the aim of many economic activities is to achieve a certain structure. In this manner, thermoeconomics attempts to apply the theories in non-equilibrium thermodynamics, in which structure formations called dissipative structures form, and information theory, in which information entropy is a central construct, to the modeling of economic activities in which the natural flows of energy and materials function to create scarce resources. In thermodynamic terminology, human economic activity may be described as a dissipative system, which flourishes by transforming and exchanging resources, goods, and services.[4] These processes involve complex networks of flows of energy and materials
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics and many other WP articles (see [4]):
In Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt (George Allen & Unwin 1926), Frederick Soddy turned his attention to the role of energy in economic systems. He criticized the focus on monetary flows in economics, arguing that “real” wealth was derived from the use of energy to transform materials into physical goods and services. Soddy’s economic writings were largely ignored in his time, but would later be applied to the development of biophysical economics and bioeconomics and also ecological economics in the late 20th century.[8]
There are many duplicated paragraphs. In the circumstances, I suggest that the article be turned into a redirect, pointing to Energy economics. Johnfos ( talk) 10:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't take an expert in the subject area to see that much of the material in this article is already mentioned, word for word, in other WP articles. Here are some more examples:
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics:
Energy Accounting is the hypothetical system of distribution, proposed by Technocracy Incorporated in the Technocracy Study Course, which would record the energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate.[1]
This paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated and several other WP articles (see [5]):
Physical scientists and biologists were the first individuals to use energy flows to explain social and economic development. Joseph Henry, an American physicist and first secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, remarked that the "fundamental principle of political economy is that the physical labor of man can only be ameliorated by...the transformation of matter from a crude state to an artificial condition...by expending what is called power or energy."[7]
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics and many other WP articles (see [6]):
Exergy analysis is performed in the field of industrial ecology to use energy more efficiently.[14] The term exergy, was coined by Zoran Rant in 1956, but the concept was developed by J. Willard Gibbs. In recent decades, utilization of exergy has spread outside of physics and engineering to the fields of industrial ecology, ecological economics, systems ecology, and energetics.
This paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated:
The units of the accounting system proposed by Technocracy Incorporated, would be known as Energy Certificates, or Energy Units. Energy accounting would replace money in a Technate, but unlike traditional currencies, energy units could not be saved or earned, only distributed evenly among a populace.[15]
This is clearly an untenable situation. And I suggest again that the article needs to be redirected.
I would also add that this sort of blatant repetition is the type of thing you would expect in advertising material, not an encyclopedia, and that this article and some other articles related to Technocracy Incorporated appear to be largely promotional in nature. Johnfos ( talk) 18:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph appears in several other WP articles (see [7]):
Georgescu-Roegen reintroduced into economics, the concept of entropy from thermodynamics (as distinguished from the mechanistic foundation of neoclassical economics drawn from Newtonian physics) and did foundational work which later developed into evolutionary economics. His work contributed significantly to bioeconomics and to ecological economics.[9][10][11][12][13]
Unless anyone objects, I will redirect this article to Energy economics. Johnfos ( talk) 20:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Energy accounting. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Energy accounting at the Reference desk. |
Recently an editor made a personal attack here by using this page for something other than the purpose meant for it http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Energy_Accounting&diff=271498736&oldid=271497446. Looking for personal information which is inflammatory defeats the actual purpose of editing here. This is the second type of occurrence like this by the same editor. Making personal attacks can get a person blocked on wikipedia. skip sievert ( talk) 04:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The original drive by tagging of the article was not done to a purpose to improve the article or discuss creative changes... it was done because an editor did not understand the subject... and by extension thought others might not. The article has been given more refs and citations. One user has made personal attacks... and another has done no improvements on the article. If no attempt at good faith editing is done here... then arguments over content can not be resolved. Also... calling a publication from 1934 an advertisement... as one user here has done is a non starter. That is not constructive editing. Removing information from a notable group does not make a lot of sense. I suggest that a request for comment go out on this article if users here want to argue about tagging it or not. The article was stable for a long time. It has also been improved recently. Editing can be done collaboratively. skip sievert ( talk) 19:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
If you are interested in some issue here you could say what it is. Just floating the idea that the article may not be neutral over and over, is not much to go on. The article is full of multiple links to multiple sources that show how the concept has been used historically and how it is used now. Mostly you have not done any edits at all in the article. You have not brought up any specific or even remote complaint of why it is you feel the article is not neutral. The talk page is for that discussion. How is it that you have this concern and are not willing to engage what aspect it is that you are complaining about? Because of that I find this a distraction. Show a phrase or a paragraph or something here to make a case. skip sievert ( talk) 00:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Editors cannot agree whether article Energy Accounting is having a POV or not. Edit war about POV-tagging. See talkpage as from here. My summary over the conflict can be read here. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 14:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Changed the repeating information to different aspect. Energy return on investment ( EROEI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. Biophysical and ecological economists argue that net energy analysis has several advantages over standard economic analysis. [1] The idea is to use the First and Second laws of thermodynamics to determine how much energy is needed at each point in the system, and in what form that energy is. [2]Using that method a biophysical economics or thermoeconomic aspect can be attained. ---- skip sievert ( talk) 18:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
References
Have requested a move to "Energy accounting" due to earlier discussions. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 18:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The article Energy was added to this article as a see also, and then another editor reverted that article off (energy art. link). The article here is about energy in all its manifestations and that includes measurement as in accounting... either thermoeconomic accounting or energy economics. Therefore the article energy seems like an appropriate add to this article, as it also explains the subject. Also it is related in a way that seems like it would make sense as a see also. Granted it may be linked in the body of the article somewhere... but it seems like an article link is appropriate also. What are views on this? skip sievert ( talk) 01:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
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I'm going to remove this from the Article, because Technocrats do not argue this, and thus the opposition view is pointless.
"The technocrats would agree that, economically, every person would be equal. In this way, they share some communist ideals, but technocrats argue that the post-cold war era has given the term Communism a negative connotation. They say that communism and capitalism are both systems evolved from scarcity, and that mankind has never attempted to implement a system based on abundance. An opponent of technocracy might counter-argue that it is not post-cold war capitalists who have given communism a bad name, but rather communism's own dismal track record which has ruined its credibility as an economic system."
I will attempt to restate it somehow. -- Hibernian 23:11, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is so poorly written that my initial edits on the top have helped ( skip sievert 17:51, 29 May 2007 (UTC))
This article needs to be renamed. Energy Accounting.( skip sievert 04:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC))
I am suggesting a complete rewrite for this article.
I am posting this here first, because I believe that a rewrite may turn the page into yet another Technocracy edit war. Opinions? -- 77siddhartha 08:15, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Sidd, someone here is continuing to put up the concept of 'energy credits' I think both you and I have determined from official literature that that term is a misnomer. There are not energy credits or debits in Technocracy. One would have to follow the other, and they do not. That info mostly came from the link I have taken down to Kolzenes site. It uses that term. You have noticed that it is not used elsewhere, except perhaps in the TTCD material I don`t know. That should never be used here or elsewhere. The TTCD. It is controversial. Many hard core Technocrats have rejected it, and it has created a division in the movement that is dramatic. This method records the Energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate. Energy certificates unlike money are used in a Technate for accounting purposes only. Unlike money or currencies, units of energy can not be saved or earned, and will be distributed evenly among a populace. The number of units given to each citizen would be calculated by determining the total productive capacity of the technate and dividing it equally, after basic costs of running the infrastructure are considered. In energy accounting the Technate would use information of natural resources, industrial capacity and citizen’s consuming habits to determine how much of any good or service is being consumed by the populace, so that it would balance production with consumption. The use of 'ENERGY CREDITS' is not described in the design of the Technate The energy certificate is an energy accounting system only. There is no such use of it as a CREDIT. If one has credit, then Q must follow P and thus one must also have DEBIT. The energy certificate does NOT replace Money. It has NO VALUE at all. It can not be saved, Hoarded, or traded. Its only use in the Technate is as an energy accounting system and production and distribution accounting of all goods and service produced. The mere attachment to the Energy Certificate to Credit, debt, or money i.e. medium of exchange is totally erroneous and false. PERIOD! This Technocratic system is referred to as Energy Accounting using Energy certificates. Technocrats point out that energy accounting is not rationing; it is a way to distribute an abundance and track demand. Everyone would receive an equal amount of energy certificates which would far exceed the ability of the consumer to use. Any thing short of that is a Price System. With the name change now to energy accounting, and if the term 'energy credits' is not used here again, its not looking too bad.( skip sievert 22:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC))
Because I do not see that you are right about your statement in your edit. In fact mainstream Technocracy does not use the term 'energy credits'.
"(Reverting, this version, adds nothing of value, and as stated before, Energy Credits are a perfectly legitimate term, used in Tech Inc. documents and commonly used by Technocrats)"
I think you are way off base in your use of the term energy credits. In fact I know you are. The term used is energy certificates. An energy credit is a misnomer in Technocracy of the first order. So how do you justify your use of the term in this article over and over ? ( skip sievert 04:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC))
Quote Enrique Lescure, NET:
" The usership right is a part of the social contract which is the technate. It is physically manifested through an energy certifikate. The available capacity is divided into energy units, which could also be called energy credits although it might be misleading. Why? Because the units, since they most correspond to the available consumption capacity in the technate during a given time period (minus of course usage during said period), would not be possible to save over that period. Instead, the certifikate will be reloaded with a new share more corresponding to the new total production capacity of the technate." http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_jd-wp&Itemid=93&p=7 Network of European Technocrats
I am going to site more examples also from other sources, but I thought it would be interesting to give the NET site, one that I have endorsed, just as an example how energy credits is a misnomer.( skip sievert 02:10, 3 August 2007 (UTC))
An example of Hibernian referring to a term that does not exist in Technocracy circles, except on a website that was referred to as not a good source in and of itself by the editor Wafulz on Technocracy movement. The deleted material leading from the deleted link was written by Kolzene, and Hibernian is a key player on said website. This self generated, (a wiki editor produced it and it is promoted by another wiki editor)and non connected concept, has no bearing in Technocracy related material. If the TechCa site has not been allowed to present original conclusions on Technocracy movement site, why then here ? Could you monitor this situation Wafulz ? ( skip sievert 14:53, 6 August 2007 (UTC))
In fact Skip, I have offered a defence of the term, I offered it above, and I offered it WEEKS AGO, on the Technocracy Talk page. If you really want me to direct you to a particular citation then check the TTCD here [1], page 68. -- Hibernian 15:28, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
The TTCD is a document that was partially written by an editor here. It is not a reliable source. I read the offered piece above and while it talks about energy certificates, it does not talk about 'credit' except that it is a term that applies to money and not Technocracy concepts. Here is an accurate description of energy certificates, and this is the type of information which should be used in the article. Also it has been brought up that the particular document cited above was edited by an editor here (Kolzene) and is not considered valid by many present and former Technocrats. http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm It is suggested that the link be removed to TechCa, and not used again for reference here in regard to Energy Credits. It is not needed, and the Technocracy Incorporated page archive covers that material, and it is perhaps a tool to drive traffic to a site, instead of an information tool, as to the subject at hand. ( skip sievert 16:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)) The Energy Certificate
Here is another 3rd party link to energy accounting concepts. http://gloryoftechnocracy.blogspot.com/ Glory Of Technocracy ( skip sievert 00:36, 8 August 2007 (UTC))
What document are you referring to ? Here is the document that has been used to explain energy accounting for decades and it has been updated along the way also, it was updated in the 1960`s as it states in its body, and most other references to energy accounting/certificates are spin offs of this one, some done better and some done worse. http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate -- If you are referring to the TTCD for reasons given ( edited by Kolzene ) that would not be a good document to use here. Also where in it does it talk extensively or about the term 'energy credit' ? As far as I saw it does not. As said energy credit is mostly used as a way to NOT think about energy accounting/energy certificates. I gave a recent statement by NET even why it is not an appropriate term, but in the context offered by past edits here, a misleading term http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_jd-wp&Itemid=93&p=7 Network of European Technocrats. Although this term is used extensively on the TechCa website, that, as you have pointed out is not a good source. While it is possible if someone looks very hard to see a term like energy credit used it has not been cited by example of such here at all. The overwhelming discussion and explanation of energy accounting and energy certificates explanations do no use the term energy credits, usually except as a reference for what it is not. The term 'credit' is a banking money term, and thus confusing in a description of Technocracy. Technocracy does not use money. With the term credit also follows the term debit. They are counter points that exist together. Therefore misleading in the sense of presenting the article as to being understandable.( skip sievert 17:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC))
An excerpt from the essay above from Technocracy Incorporated, which has been updated from the 1960`s time period from the original 1930`s article, and again the gold standard of explanation of the term energy accounting/energy certificates.
"There might be much said in disposing of Major Douglas' Social Credit theory, Fischer's commodity dollar, Soddy's treatment of monetary structure, and other such schemes. In theory they differ, but in application they all deal in evaluation and therefore must be declared inapplicable in an era of abundance where there are no values. It did not happen that Soddy, an outstanding scientist, came remarkably close to the projection of the unique civilization required in an era of abundance--but ere too late he remembered that he was an English gentleman, inescapably charged with the preservation of all that for which Oxonian tradition stands.
The energy certificate furnishes the molecular mass with a medium whereby it presents its mandate unequivocally and continually to the administrative mechanism, without representation, delegation, referendum, or any other device of previous social administration.
The Energy certificate is the only instrument of distribution which can be used in this Continent's emerging era of abundance.
There can be no era of abundance without a New America.
The energy certificate will be the instrument of distribution in the New America.
I'm confused Skip- why does the TTCD not count as an official source? From what I see, it's hosted on Tech Inc's website, and it is officially endorsed by Tech Inc.- Wafulz 12:26, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Read what I said on your talk page Wafulz, for the reasons for all this. The TTCD is an official document and Tech Inc. does indeed endorse and offer it. Skip's opinions on it are entirely his own personal bias. -- Hibernian 13:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I have stated my reasons. I request the help of another admin. editor to over see this page, and thought that the purpose here is to present information that is not colored by wiki editors and their edits. The TTCD was edited by Kolzene another editor here, and Hibernian is his chief poster on a diss blog as you have described blogs in the past wafulz http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. and in general is viewed as discredited information. I also represent CHQ 44.94 -93.29 which is just as official a site as TechInc Washington. Both are legal corporations. Also none of my many issues are being addressed here, and I state again that wafulz is personally involved in this article and biased as is the case with Technocracy movement also. Why is the link to TechCa put up with redundant information on energy accounting as energy credits, when linked info. here already explains it ?, and why is the TTCD link a separate link on both pages when it is already featured on the Techinc Washington home page ? I have a paper copy of the original TTCD, and it does not contain the tagged on concept of Energy Credits on the end of it. That information was inserted several years ago, when wiki editor Kolzene revamped the file. ( skip sievert 14:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC))
It really is not a matter of me liking or disliking anyone. That is something that I do not care to get into, it is a projection by Hibernian that for some reason you are echoing. I consider it provocative for you to echo his thoughts. This document may help to explain how energy credits somehow are misconstrued as energy certificates. My issues other than the mentioned ones are not being addresed, such as the link to TechCa here, and the redundant links on both articles of the TTCD. Also it is my understanding that a recent edit of material by a wiki editor, that is being promoted here is not really appropriate, and the wealth of other information that does not use the concept in question is overwhelming such as this http://www.technocracy.org/technocrat/The%20Energy%20Distribution%20reduced.pdf The Energy Distribution reduced.pdf (application/pdf Object) Really my only interest here is presenting the most accurate, and least conflicting information on the subject which will not confuse or obscure this issue ( skip sievert 15:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC))
I protest your demeaning attitude Hibernian and note that you rely on personal insult to try to make your points. Both links obviously did not belong there in the first place, as the information is available on the Techinc Washington site free of 3rd party hosting by TechCa. The TTCD is a edited document by a current editor here. That means it is self published info. and I think that may be a no no. Any way with all the links I have provided for really good and classic info such as http://www.technocracy.org/technocrat/The%20Energy%20Distribution%20reduced.pdf The Energy Distribution reduced.pdf (application/pdf Object) or http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate, the TTCD edited by Kolzene, and as said many times, a bone of contention among many current and former members, is just not worth linking. Mostly it is recycled info. from the articles I am giving here. The term units is used very often in Technocracy although it is not a descriptive as certificates. If any thing is a substitute for certificates, units is really the very best choice, although both can be used accurately. The articles above use the term. It does not have a monetary meaning, which is confusing to understanding that Technocracy is not a 'value' based system as money is. I will say again that a separate listing of the TTCD is not appropriate on either the Technocracy movement page, or the energy accounting page, as any one interested in that document will find it on Techinc Washington`s website, along with the rest of their archived articles. It is a booklet, or information brief also, as I am the Price System was when it was originally published. So your deleting the I am the Price System article was not appropriate. It is a famous and noteworthy Technocracy writing. To sum up here energy accounting/energy certificates is the main stream representation of the concept in concern here. Another way it is sometimes said is the term 'units' - rarely to ever is it termed 'energy credits'. When a section of this article uses that term over and over perhaps 6 or 7 times in a paragraph of information, it is not only confusing, but the actual concept of what is talked about in relation to the idea of what it really is, is lost in a confusion of connecting those ideas with credit and debit.( skip sievert 02:24, 11 August 2007 (UTC))
Also I have included only the TechInc links for information on energy accounting. ( skip sievert 02:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC))
This article which was slated for a rewrite, and the Technocracy movement article being reviewed still need improvements. Especially the Technocracy movement article.
The article in question from 1955 is widely available in many places, an example of another place it is available is http://technocracy-incorporated.wikispaces.com/ technocracy-incorporated » home - and I could list other multiple places also, at least three more from other sources. A version of it also is here , http://www.technocracyvan.ca/Articles/ScientificTechnologicalDesign.html TechnocracyVan , which may not be a great site in general, but does have pretty much good information. According to TechInc Washington, they approved the material there. Also no doubt it is available from Techinc, and probably in the archive section, which I have not gone through completely to check for it. Again the former reason of Wafulz for dropping links to TechCa was that it is not considered a 'good source' in general, although it does contain some accurate information as many other sites do also. I think that it is pretty hard to go wrong in just referring back to TechInc where much of this information on energy accounting is redundantly offered in information briefs and essays that span many decades, with most of the information repeated mainly in the same way. TechCa is not a unique source of this material.
TechnocracyVan. So despite this being repetitive information, that is covered far better with the links already provided now, this information could be added by the addition of the TechVanCa site. The edited 'out' link repeatedly reinserted by two active editors on TechCa, (Ross Murphy,Bill DesJardin), with self generated information, framed around the actual cited material, could be construed as a device to drive blogging or forum traffic to itself, instead of a pure information link. Also the information as framed by TechCa is not really the originally formatted information with the intro and outro aspect it has on the deleted link. ( skip sievert 17:46, 14 August 2007 (UTC))
" Wafulz did not say that all material from Tech.ca was unacceptable," Hibernian.
I have pointed out where the article is available above. The TTCD is available at the link that already exists to the TechInc site, therefore it is redundant. TechCa has been pointed out as not a good source. This link is dropped as it is repetitive info. from what is already available and already available in multiple sites. http://people.tribe.net/b0455ee2-dab0-4170-8de2-aad4bf963f74/blog My Blog - tribe.net here is another site, and there are multiple others. Here is another, http://technocracy-incorporated.wikispaces.com/ technocracy-incorporated » home and another http://technocracynow.blogspot.com/ Technocracy - The Design of the North American Technate. Also the fact that you your self are an administrator on that site that answers questions, and runs the site would seem to be a case of promoting a special interest. Your name is Icarus, on that site. It would seem to be an attempt to drive traffic to that site, for less than information only reasons. http://www.technocracy.ca/ Technocracy.ca :: Also that site could be interpreted as what has been referred to as a 'diss' blog previously by an editor. ( skip sievert 02:17, 16 August 2007 (UTC))
Conflict of interest guidelines. It violates wiki neutrality guidelines for a person with close ties to an issue to contribute material in a self generated context, concerned with driving readers to a chat or blog site such as http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. It has been noted by an admin editor as 'not a good source'. Wiki is quickly self correcting, partly so that special interest groups are not able to use it as a vehicle of driving traffic to a special interest, close tie. Since you are one of the admin. on the site above, and 'run it' this is a conflict of interest. A no no. So much information, and excellent information is available on this subject of energy accounting, that it is not useful to post to a questionable source, as TechCa, in this context has been referred to. To much baggage of special interest. Since an editor here is obviously a director there. ( skip sievert 02:08, 17 August 2007 (UTC))
I thought other editors were going to be involved in this article, as you have stated your self that you are in to deep, and I assume that means you questioned your objectivity ? I am not edit warring, and I find that you are siding without even getting into the arguments I made on different issues here. Could other editors be brought in to objectively look at the article ? Here is the front end of their site wafulz, and no, someone would not have to "go quite a ways into their site to find a thread about you", as you say. It is on the cover. http://www.technocracy.ca/ Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. Also I was only restoring the edit you did. You took off that link recently to the TechCa site. ( skip sievert 01:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC))
Here is proof positive of that. " Now, RE: Energy Accounting. You are spouting the same semantics that Skip is. Yes, "energy credits" is a somewhat misleading term. However, until the appropriate materials can be rewritten in a more modern context, we are stuck with it. Raging like Skip is against it is in very poor taste and doesn't help anyone. Let me give you a little advice from Technocracy's Operating Instructions #7: Guide for Writers: "Preserve an attitude of cool and detached dignity, without emotionalizing, and without indulgence in personalities." Why is this? Because doing otherwise hurts your credibility. This is why nobody listens to Skip, and why you are getting such bad response here as well. I know that it may seem like it is the fault of others, but you have to take responsibility for your own actions.
If you must know I agree that "credit" is not the best term for it, and should be purged from Technocracy material. But right now it is all the material we have, so until we get enough talented and knowledgeable writers to rewrite everything from scratch, the best thing you can do is simply clarify the discrepancy to those people who are confused by the term " end quote, Kolzene, a wiki editor here, and the administrator of TechCa. I think this sums up the problem of energy credits very well. It makes sense to make this more clear to the public. Here is a link to Bills, (Kolzenes) statement in part 3. http://www.technocracy.ca/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=21497&POSTNUKESID=a75b01cf42e4b110f2eef44e041f5cc1 Technocracy.ca :: Advocating control of technology, not people. ( skip sievert 02:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC))
Ok, as much as I hate to continue a split discussion, what I have to say is more relevant here. Skip's reason for taking out the term "credit" was based on things I said on another web page. In those things I never agreed that changing anything on Wikipedia was appropriate (see the Talk Page for Technocracy Movement for my reply to that). If anything, I would be for the removal of (or significant change in reference to) the term "certificate". The reason is that the article states that "The units of this accounting system would be known as Energy Credits, Energy Certificates, or simply Energy Units." This is inaccurate. The units themselves would be the same as any other scientific unit for the measure of energy (e.g. ergs, joules, kilowatt-hours, etc.). The "Energy Certificate" was merely a device to be used in the accounting system, easily replaceable by anything superior (such as debit-style cards or microchips). This is an important distinction and should be made clear in the article. However, like I said in the other Talk Page, until Technocracy Inc. changes its publications and nomenclature, the purpose of this article to to reflect what they themselves are proposing, not to correct them by removing the term "credit". As for his removal of the link to the Energy Accounting Information Brief on technocracy.ca, that was not explained by him, and as it is a useful article on the matter, it should remain. Even if Skip decides to use his standard argument that everything on technocracy.ca is useless and/or misleading, then I would ask why he is using a post I wrote there as his "proof positive" to support his argument? -- Kolzene 13:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
( skip sievert 17:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC))
http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate an original copy and a reedited copy, http://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfx7rfr2_93dqt642 The Energy Certificate/Energy Accounting.Technocracy system. The predominent terminology as to energy certificate energy accounting. Lets keep it simple, and easy to understand. Energy Certificate is the term that is most easily understandable and the one that is used in most of the literature. ( skip sievert 21:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC))
How is it that Ross Murphy or Hibernian continues to take down the link to Willard Gibbs and also to the group that originated the concept and published the concept of Energy Accounting , Technocracy Incorporated.
It could be suspected that user may be trying to filter people into a commercial site run by Network of European Technocrats. Hibernian is a member of that site and a proponent of that site which is a commercial site. http://en.technocracynet.eu/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=85&Itemid=65 Network of European Technocrats - Ross Murphy
In appearance directing people to NET and publishing info that leads to them is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Conflict_of_interest Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. skip sievert ( talk) 16:07, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
To the Fezer essay to this article... http://www.technocracy.org/Archives/The%20Energy%20Certificate-r.htm The Energy Certificate] An article on Energy Accounting as proposed by Technocracy Inc. This article had zero references before. Please add other citations and references. skip sievert ( talk) 15:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Added two more reference citations to article. skip sievert ( talk) 15:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I find this article unbalanced and confusing, and have tagged it accordingly. If one googles on energy accounting, it seems to be a general concept (compare with environmental accounting), not just a concept within the school of Technocracy Incorporated. Being a nonexpert in this area, it's really confusing to read this article. Is it a general concept which have acceptance among academics, or is it just part of the ideology of Tech. Inc? If it is the former, then this article talks way too much about technates. Especially, the beginning paragraph needs to be changed. Energy accounting in the context of Tech. Inc. maybe could have it's own article, e.g. Energy accounting (concept within Technocracy Incorporated) or something similar. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 18:31, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Marten's general comment that the article is "unbalanced and confusing". Please let him put tags in place which reflect this. This is the normal process on WP, and by no means a "last resort". Taking an article to WP:AfD is a last resort. Maybe if some improvements are made to this article we can avoid that. Johnfos ( talk) 03:36, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
I've had a closer look at the article now. As the tags suggest, there are some problems. Much of the content is either unsourced, or already appears in other articles. For example, this paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated:
Energy economics relating to thermoeconomics, is a broad scientific subject area which includes topics related to supply and use of energy in societies. Thermoeconomists argue that economic systems always involve matter, energy, entropy, and information.[3] Moreover, the aim of many economic activities is to achieve a certain structure. In this manner, thermoeconomics attempts to apply the theories in non-equilibrium thermodynamics, in which structure formations called dissipative structures form, and information theory, in which information entropy is a central construct, to the modeling of economic activities in which the natural flows of energy and materials function to create scarce resources. In thermodynamic terminology, human economic activity may be described as a dissipative system, which flourishes by transforming and exchanging resources, goods, and services.[4] These processes involve complex networks of flows of energy and materials
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics and many other WP articles (see [4]):
In Wealth, Virtual Wealth and Debt (George Allen & Unwin 1926), Frederick Soddy turned his attention to the role of energy in economic systems. He criticized the focus on monetary flows in economics, arguing that “real” wealth was derived from the use of energy to transform materials into physical goods and services. Soddy’s economic writings were largely ignored in his time, but would later be applied to the development of biophysical economics and bioeconomics and also ecological economics in the late 20th century.[8]
There are many duplicated paragraphs. In the circumstances, I suggest that the article be turned into a redirect, pointing to Energy economics. Johnfos ( talk) 10:54, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
It doesn't take an expert in the subject area to see that much of the material in this article is already mentioned, word for word, in other WP articles. Here are some more examples:
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics:
Energy Accounting is the hypothetical system of distribution, proposed by Technocracy Incorporated in the Technocracy Study Course, which would record the energy used to produce and distribute goods and services consumed by citizens in a Technate.[1]
This paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated and several other WP articles (see [5]):
Physical scientists and biologists were the first individuals to use energy flows to explain social and economic development. Joseph Henry, an American physicist and first secretary of the Smithsonian Institution, remarked that the "fundamental principle of political economy is that the physical labor of man can only be ameliorated by...the transformation of matter from a crude state to an artificial condition...by expending what is called power or energy."[7]
This paragraph also appears in Thermoeconomics and many other WP articles (see [6]):
Exergy analysis is performed in the field of industrial ecology to use energy more efficiently.[14] The term exergy, was coined by Zoran Rant in 1956, but the concept was developed by J. Willard Gibbs. In recent decades, utilization of exergy has spread outside of physics and engineering to the fields of industrial ecology, ecological economics, systems ecology, and energetics.
This paragraph also appears in Technocracy Incorporated:
The units of the accounting system proposed by Technocracy Incorporated, would be known as Energy Certificates, or Energy Units. Energy accounting would replace money in a Technate, but unlike traditional currencies, energy units could not be saved or earned, only distributed evenly among a populace.[15]
This is clearly an untenable situation. And I suggest again that the article needs to be redirected.
I would also add that this sort of blatant repetition is the type of thing you would expect in advertising material, not an encyclopedia, and that this article and some other articles related to Technocracy Incorporated appear to be largely promotional in nature. Johnfos ( talk) 18:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
This paragraph appears in several other WP articles (see [7]):
Georgescu-Roegen reintroduced into economics, the concept of entropy from thermodynamics (as distinguished from the mechanistic foundation of neoclassical economics drawn from Newtonian physics) and did foundational work which later developed into evolutionary economics. His work contributed significantly to bioeconomics and to ecological economics.[9][10][11][12][13]
Unless anyone objects, I will redirect this article to Energy economics. Johnfos ( talk) 20:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Energy accounting. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Energy accounting at the Reference desk. |
Recently an editor made a personal attack here by using this page for something other than the purpose meant for it http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Energy_Accounting&diff=271498736&oldid=271497446. Looking for personal information which is inflammatory defeats the actual purpose of editing here. This is the second type of occurrence like this by the same editor. Making personal attacks can get a person blocked on wikipedia. skip sievert ( talk) 04:10, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
The original drive by tagging of the article was not done to a purpose to improve the article or discuss creative changes... it was done because an editor did not understand the subject... and by extension thought others might not. The article has been given more refs and citations. One user has made personal attacks... and another has done no improvements on the article. If no attempt at good faith editing is done here... then arguments over content can not be resolved. Also... calling a publication from 1934 an advertisement... as one user here has done is a non starter. That is not constructive editing. Removing information from a notable group does not make a lot of sense. I suggest that a request for comment go out on this article if users here want to argue about tagging it or not. The article was stable for a long time. It has also been improved recently. Editing can be done collaboratively. skip sievert ( talk) 19:17, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
If you are interested in some issue here you could say what it is. Just floating the idea that the article may not be neutral over and over, is not much to go on. The article is full of multiple links to multiple sources that show how the concept has been used historically and how it is used now. Mostly you have not done any edits at all in the article. You have not brought up any specific or even remote complaint of why it is you feel the article is not neutral. The talk page is for that discussion. How is it that you have this concern and are not willing to engage what aspect it is that you are complaining about? Because of that I find this a distraction. Show a phrase or a paragraph or something here to make a case. skip sievert ( talk) 00:51, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Editors cannot agree whether article Energy Accounting is having a POV or not. Edit war about POV-tagging. See talkpage as from here. My summary over the conflict can be read here. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 14:30, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
Changed the repeating information to different aspect. Energy return on investment ( EROEI) is the ratio of energy delivered to energy costs. Biophysical and ecological economists argue that net energy analysis has several advantages over standard economic analysis. [1] The idea is to use the First and Second laws of thermodynamics to determine how much energy is needed at each point in the system, and in what form that energy is. [2]Using that method a biophysical economics or thermoeconomic aspect can be attained. ---- skip sievert ( talk) 18:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
References
Have requested a move to "Energy accounting" due to earlier discussions. Mårten Berglund ( talk) 18:13, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
The article Energy was added to this article as a see also, and then another editor reverted that article off (energy art. link). The article here is about energy in all its manifestations and that includes measurement as in accounting... either thermoeconomic accounting or energy economics. Therefore the article energy seems like an appropriate add to this article, as it also explains the subject. Also it is related in a way that seems like it would make sense as a see also. Granted it may be linked in the body of the article somewhere... but it seems like an article link is appropriate also. What are views on this? skip sievert ( talk) 01:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
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