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There is a discussion about "un-notified litigation" available at Talk:Emergence/Litigation which was moved because it does not directly relate to the content of the article.
About the mathematical proof of the emergence. can not any closed figure be used as a simpler proof??
I mean, you can make a circle of bend lines, and only when all the lines are put into place the emergence shows.
I got a copy of Corning's paper, which appears to be the main source actually discussing emergence (and not just providing examples which wikipedia editors then draw WP:SYNTH conclusions from as examples of emergence). Corning largely rejects the definition of emergence as self-organization, considers table salt and water to be emergent phenomena by his own definition, and largely argues in the paper that the whole concept is meaningless. And yet, somehow his arguments were carefully cited to draw essentially the opposite conclusions!
As such, I'm removing most of the article. This is a topic that easily begets nonsense, so at a bare minimum we should have a WP:RS claim made for every example of emergence, and ideally an academic one from a specialist, rather than trying to draw our own conclusions or blindly citing any misconceptions in popular media on the topic. - car chasm ( talk) 16:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
From just a reader
"Constructal law – Romanian-American professor"
Seems wrong. Sorry I have no time/expertise to fix it. 46.253.188.161 ( talk) 14:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
The sentence: "Strong emergence describes the direct causal action of a high-level system on its components" suggests that there is always " downward causation" (probably influenced by Jaegwon Kim's argument about the " overdetermination" of the mental over the physical domain, if you consider the mental as strongly emergent). However, that is not true: you can say that the properties of a strongly emergent phenomenon supervene on the properties of its building blocks (just as the properties of a water molecule supervene on the properties of its building blocks: hydrogen and oxygen atoms). But that is not the same as the other way round: "downward causation", where the water molecule is supposed to change the properties of its building blocks. Moreover, "downward causation" is never a direct reversal of cause and effect, but always via a detour - that is normally called "feedback".
Moreover, the question is whether you can even consider the mental domain as a complex system as a case of strong emergence. I propose to change this.
Ypan1944 ( talk) 15:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 6 sections are present. |
There is a discussion about "un-notified litigation" available at Talk:Emergence/Litigation which was moved because it does not directly relate to the content of the article.
About the mathematical proof of the emergence. can not any closed figure be used as a simpler proof??
I mean, you can make a circle of bend lines, and only when all the lines are put into place the emergence shows.
I got a copy of Corning's paper, which appears to be the main source actually discussing emergence (and not just providing examples which wikipedia editors then draw WP:SYNTH conclusions from as examples of emergence). Corning largely rejects the definition of emergence as self-organization, considers table salt and water to be emergent phenomena by his own definition, and largely argues in the paper that the whole concept is meaningless. And yet, somehow his arguments were carefully cited to draw essentially the opposite conclusions!
As such, I'm removing most of the article. This is a topic that easily begets nonsense, so at a bare minimum we should have a WP:RS claim made for every example of emergence, and ideally an academic one from a specialist, rather than trying to draw our own conclusions or blindly citing any misconceptions in popular media on the topic. - car chasm ( talk) 16:43, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
From just a reader
"Constructal law – Romanian-American professor"
Seems wrong. Sorry I have no time/expertise to fix it. 46.253.188.161 ( talk) 14:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)
The sentence: "Strong emergence describes the direct causal action of a high-level system on its components" suggests that there is always " downward causation" (probably influenced by Jaegwon Kim's argument about the " overdetermination" of the mental over the physical domain, if you consider the mental as strongly emergent). However, that is not true: you can say that the properties of a strongly emergent phenomenon supervene on the properties of its building blocks (just as the properties of a water molecule supervene on the properties of its building blocks: hydrogen and oxygen atoms). But that is not the same as the other way round: "downward causation", where the water molecule is supposed to change the properties of its building blocks. Moreover, "downward causation" is never a direct reversal of cause and effect, but always via a detour - that is normally called "feedback".
Moreover, the question is whether you can even consider the mental domain as a complex system as a case of strong emergence. I propose to change this.
Ypan1944 ( talk) 15:36, 30 January 2024 (UTC)