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hey, sadly the colonialism map doesn't highlight the expansion and decline of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in Eastern Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.111.207 ( talk) 14:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
"Early modern" is a term used in literary criticism instead of "Renaissance", because critics (or critics who use the term) prefer to see the literature they analyze as "looking forward" instead of being "reborn". I am not sure how to expand the article to include such, and I would like comments. If someone happens to have a suggest, please find my talk page, as I might overlook comments here. Ottava Rima ( talk) 05:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I note a problem with the introductory paragraph: It begins 'a term ... roughly from 1500 to 1800 ' then goes on to say 'This categorical era spans the two centuries'. This is apparently contradictory. I will remove the reference to 'two centuries' unless anyone objects. - Crosbiesmith ( talk) 09:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
EOF. J. D. Redding 00:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Lifted the European/Western section again to the top, since early modernity is by all accounts a historical development which originated in Europe and was driven by European political, economic, ideological, religious and military trends. Removed the section on indigenous American states and peoples. While these political entities, from a purely chronological point of view, continued to exist into the early modern period, that is into the 16th and partly 17th century, none of them underwent a modern transformation, but generally remained pre-Colombian in outlook and character until absorbed by the Spanish Empire (for that, see section "Colonial expansion and possessions"). Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 22:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
That is a brave assertion! The start period is debatable- discovery of the new world is one that is often but not universally used and the French Revolution as the end point is also just one definition. Also could be arguaed as beginning and ending at different times in different places. Who are these "historians"? Judging by comments above, there used to be a move vague (and probably more appropriate) definition. Epeeist smudge ( talk) 09:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
It's inappropriate because as stated above this is a controversial and largely meaningless attempt to impose a specific periodisation which is only favoured by some historians rather than anything like a common concensus. At the very least it should be changed to "some" historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.14.29 ( talk) 11:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I think it is more well-accepted to have begun in 1450 CE, with the invention of the printing press and end in 1750 CE with the commonly accepted beginning of the Industrial Revolution (starting in Great Britain). Nevertheless, as it is debated, the introduction should explicitly state the period as beginning from "1450-1500" and ending "1750-1800" or something similar to that. The first range of time must include the printing press (explosion of communication and information), the discovery of the Americas by Columbus (the catalyst of a global network), and the conquest of Constantinople (the end of an approx. 1,500-year long empire). The second range would need to cover the Industrial Revolution (significance self-explanatory) and the French and American revolutions (which started a trend of "human rights/nationalist" movements). InvaderCito ( talk) 03:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Since the "Early Modern Period" is ostensibly defined by cultural changes in Europe, why is there an attempt to write about non-European cultures in this article? They did not follow the same trends as Europeans and should not be said to be in the same period.
I'm not suggesting that Wikipedia should create a new period for those regions - that would be original research. I am, however saying that those cultures, instead of being conflated with the 'Early modern period', should only be written about in the articles for the periods that have been developed by historians specifically about those cultures. As it is this article is an example of original research and thus un-encyclopedic, because no serious historian would claim that Afghan or Indian &c. cultures experienced religious reformation or nationalism at this time, and yet that's exactly what the article implies by describing them in an article about a period characterized by those movements.
I propose that the text of the section on non-European cultures be replaced with links to their analogous periods, and the text of the article as a whole be we-worded so it does not refer to the world as a whole. Or perhaps the entire article could be deleted- isn't there already an article on Early Modern Europe? theBOBbobato ( talk) 14:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Reddi, I know you have difficulties understanding this, but the {{ globalize}} thing only applies within WP:DUE. You cannot write an article about the Early Modern Congo, because there was no Early Modern Congo. You can "globalize" a topic that has in principle a global scope. You cannot "globalize" the history of the Philippines article, because its title says it is about the Philippines. On the same grounds, you cannot "globalize" an article about a historical cultural phenomenon that was not in fact "global". It is really very simple.
Seriously, we urgently need to give up on the notion that "Early Moedern period" somehow equals "everything that happened in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries" (or that "Middle Ages" should treat "everything that happened between AD 500 and 1500"). What we need to do instead is work on raising the quality of our "century" articles. 16th century, 17th century, 18th century, these articles could become well-written, coherent articles with a worldwide scope. As long as they are just listcruft, people like Reddi are going to try and subsume "world history of the 17th century" in the "Early Modern period" article just because the lead says that this period includes the 17th century. -- dab (𒁳) 11:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
If I might intervene a bit here, I'm in training as an historian of the 17th/18th centuries and would like to note that there actually is a compelling recent argument in scholarship that "early modern world" is a legitimate unit of analysis which doesn't just apply to Europe. This is largely based on the fact that the extension of European empires and trading companies in the post-Columbus period created global-level changes (in consumption of foods and goods, disease environments, cultural practices, etc.). But historians like Sanjay Subrahmanyam at UCLA have also argued that advanced polities like those of South Asia can be regarded as "early modern" in the sense that they underwent political, economic and technological developments that were comprable to those of Western Europe in the same period. I'd point to Giancarlo Casale's The Ottoman Age of Exploration (Oxford University Press, 2010) for more on this, and several of Subrahmanyam's articles, such as "Connected Histories: Notes towards a Reconfiguration of Early Modern Eurasia." Its true that historians don't talk about "early modern Fiji," but they in fact do talk about "early modern Japan" or "early modern India," as a quick Google search will demonstrate. Just my two cents -- and my apologies for not posting this properly; I have a username but I'm not active on Wikipedia these days. - Ben — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.144.28 ( talk) 16:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree with J. D. Redding and Ben, this article refers to a period in world history, not in European history. A major trend in this period may refer exclusively to Europe, but that doesn't mean if it doesn't apply to other regions, those regions are invalid. Religious reformation and nationalism are just one of many trends and merely happen to apply only to Europe (and some would argue nationalism doesn't develop even in Europe at this time). One major aforementioned trend that really connects this period with the world is the globalization of the world economy and communication. The Americas are discovered, colonized, and set up with the mercantile system. Trade flourishes between West Europe, the Americas, and Africa; Europe, the Middle East, and South/Southeast Asia; and South/Southeast Asia and East Asia. There are some articles which refer solely to Europe/Mediterranean and should stay that way (I'm thinking Middle Ages and Classical antiquity), but this article is not one of them. InvaderCito ( talk) 23:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The section on the Ottoman Empire here is extremely small for such an important state at this time. Someone needs to start adding material to that area. Additionally, there is little mention of Russian developments and characteristics beyond the tsardom. Someone should expand on that as well. Is anyone well-versed in the Ottoman Empire or early Russia or at least have resources to use on these subjects? — InvaderCito ( talk) 19:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
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Not actually looked into the article yet, but judging by its Table of Contents, it seems to give a more globally balanced representation of historical developments of the period. The lede / introductory paragraph seems to only have a figleaf sentence referring to developments other than those based in Europe...
I know, I know, be bold, and make changes you are lobbying for, but I just thought asking first might be a good idea. 37.49.76.172 ( talk) 17:11, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
"...who could be compelled to work..." I assume this is alluding to indigenous American slavery after a pandemic, caused by a lack of immunity to Old World diseases, wiped out a large portion of the population. Compelled is a strange choice of word in that context. Anyway many native Americans ended up dying because they were far too ill to do anything remotely physical so African slaves were brought over in order to complete that 'work'. Concentrating the colonies in highly populated areas wasn't much of a choice either as the warriors that defeated the native empires comprised mostly of other native nations. As mentioned previously in the subsequent years native Americans, including indigenous allies, ended up succumbing to 'Old World' diseases. These chain of events allowed Westernized biracials or 'mestizos', who have outnumbered those of pure European descent from early on in the colonization period, to gain the ascendancy and thrive at the expense of the native population.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.48.183 ( talk) 03:03, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
In Japanese historiography, "early modern" (近世 kinsei) almost always refers to either Edo period or both the Edo and Azuchi–Momoyama periods, but this article seems to extend it a century earlier to cover the entire Sengoku period and coincide with the period of European history defined in the first paragraph of the lead. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 10:04, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
There is a worrying amount of non-cited work in this page. I will slowly build up inserting citation here and there over time. Anyone else is welcomed to do so. Thanks Danial Bass ( talk) 00:02, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 03:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
– Late modern history is sometimes referred to as modern history. I think it is worth the discussion to determine whether it should be at late modern or modern. Early modern should be moved to maintain consistency. Interstellarity ( talk) 01:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to get a proper grasp on how the concept of "early modern" is actually used. Seems like the article scope has kinda evolved organically but with no input based on how professional historians actually deal with the concept.
Has anyone actually tried reading up on the theoretical underpinnings of the concept of "early modern"? Or any kind of scholarly definition of the term? Peter Isotalo 20:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I've raised the problems in this and the related articles modern era, late modern period and modernity in Wikiproject History. Thread can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History#Modernity articles are a hot mess
I recommend a joint discussion for all these articles since they seem to suffer from very similar issues. Peter Isotalo 13:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
This
level-2 vital article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
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On 7 October 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Early modern history. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 27 July 2020 and 31 August 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ericbernard123, Tobaylon.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 24 August 2020 and 18 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Txtoon.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 20:23, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Knagayam.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 19:59, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
hey, sadly the colonialism map doesn't highlight the expansion and decline of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in Eastern Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.111.207 ( talk) 14:33, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
"Early modern" is a term used in literary criticism instead of "Renaissance", because critics (or critics who use the term) prefer to see the literature they analyze as "looking forward" instead of being "reborn". I am not sure how to expand the article to include such, and I would like comments. If someone happens to have a suggest, please find my talk page, as I might overlook comments here. Ottava Rima ( talk) 05:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I note a problem with the introductory paragraph: It begins 'a term ... roughly from 1500 to 1800 ' then goes on to say 'This categorical era spans the two centuries'. This is apparently contradictory. I will remove the reference to 'two centuries' unless anyone objects. - Crosbiesmith ( talk) 09:04, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
EOF. J. D. Redding 00:54, 9 July 2009 (UTC)
Lifted the European/Western section again to the top, since early modernity is by all accounts a historical development which originated in Europe and was driven by European political, economic, ideological, religious and military trends. Removed the section on indigenous American states and peoples. While these political entities, from a purely chronological point of view, continued to exist into the early modern period, that is into the 16th and partly 17th century, none of them underwent a modern transformation, but generally remained pre-Colombian in outlook and character until absorbed by the Spanish Empire (for that, see section "Colonial expansion and possessions"). Gun Powder Ma ( talk) 22:51, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
That is a brave assertion! The start period is debatable- discovery of the new world is one that is often but not universally used and the French Revolution as the end point is also just one definition. Also could be arguaed as beginning and ending at different times in different places. Who are these "historians"? Judging by comments above, there used to be a move vague (and probably more appropriate) definition. Epeeist smudge ( talk) 09:09, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
It's inappropriate because as stated above this is a controversial and largely meaningless attempt to impose a specific periodisation which is only favoured by some historians rather than anything like a common concensus. At the very least it should be changed to "some" historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.154.14.29 ( talk) 11:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
I think it is more well-accepted to have begun in 1450 CE, with the invention of the printing press and end in 1750 CE with the commonly accepted beginning of the Industrial Revolution (starting in Great Britain). Nevertheless, as it is debated, the introduction should explicitly state the period as beginning from "1450-1500" and ending "1750-1800" or something similar to that. The first range of time must include the printing press (explosion of communication and information), the discovery of the Americas by Columbus (the catalyst of a global network), and the conquest of Constantinople (the end of an approx. 1,500-year long empire). The second range would need to cover the Industrial Revolution (significance self-explanatory) and the French and American revolutions (which started a trend of "human rights/nationalist" movements). InvaderCito ( talk) 03:05, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Since the "Early Modern Period" is ostensibly defined by cultural changes in Europe, why is there an attempt to write about non-European cultures in this article? They did not follow the same trends as Europeans and should not be said to be in the same period.
I'm not suggesting that Wikipedia should create a new period for those regions - that would be original research. I am, however saying that those cultures, instead of being conflated with the 'Early modern period', should only be written about in the articles for the periods that have been developed by historians specifically about those cultures. As it is this article is an example of original research and thus un-encyclopedic, because no serious historian would claim that Afghan or Indian &c. cultures experienced religious reformation or nationalism at this time, and yet that's exactly what the article implies by describing them in an article about a period characterized by those movements.
I propose that the text of the section on non-European cultures be replaced with links to their analogous periods, and the text of the article as a whole be we-worded so it does not refer to the world as a whole. Or perhaps the entire article could be deleted- isn't there already an article on Early Modern Europe? theBOBbobato ( talk) 14:33, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
Reddi, I know you have difficulties understanding this, but the {{ globalize}} thing only applies within WP:DUE. You cannot write an article about the Early Modern Congo, because there was no Early Modern Congo. You can "globalize" a topic that has in principle a global scope. You cannot "globalize" the history of the Philippines article, because its title says it is about the Philippines. On the same grounds, you cannot "globalize" an article about a historical cultural phenomenon that was not in fact "global". It is really very simple.
Seriously, we urgently need to give up on the notion that "Early Moedern period" somehow equals "everything that happened in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries" (or that "Middle Ages" should treat "everything that happened between AD 500 and 1500"). What we need to do instead is work on raising the quality of our "century" articles. 16th century, 17th century, 18th century, these articles could become well-written, coherent articles with a worldwide scope. As long as they are just listcruft, people like Reddi are going to try and subsume "world history of the 17th century" in the "Early Modern period" article just because the lead says that this period includes the 17th century. -- dab (𒁳) 11:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
If I might intervene a bit here, I'm in training as an historian of the 17th/18th centuries and would like to note that there actually is a compelling recent argument in scholarship that "early modern world" is a legitimate unit of analysis which doesn't just apply to Europe. This is largely based on the fact that the extension of European empires and trading companies in the post-Columbus period created global-level changes (in consumption of foods and goods, disease environments, cultural practices, etc.). But historians like Sanjay Subrahmanyam at UCLA have also argued that advanced polities like those of South Asia can be regarded as "early modern" in the sense that they underwent political, economic and technological developments that were comprable to those of Western Europe in the same period. I'd point to Giancarlo Casale's The Ottoman Age of Exploration (Oxford University Press, 2010) for more on this, and several of Subrahmanyam's articles, such as "Connected Histories: Notes towards a Reconfiguration of Early Modern Eurasia." Its true that historians don't talk about "early modern Fiji," but they in fact do talk about "early modern Japan" or "early modern India," as a quick Google search will demonstrate. Just my two cents -- and my apologies for not posting this properly; I have a username but I'm not active on Wikipedia these days. - Ben — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.90.144.28 ( talk) 16:41, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
I agree with J. D. Redding and Ben, this article refers to a period in world history, not in European history. A major trend in this period may refer exclusively to Europe, but that doesn't mean if it doesn't apply to other regions, those regions are invalid. Religious reformation and nationalism are just one of many trends and merely happen to apply only to Europe (and some would argue nationalism doesn't develop even in Europe at this time). One major aforementioned trend that really connects this period with the world is the globalization of the world economy and communication. The Americas are discovered, colonized, and set up with the mercantile system. Trade flourishes between West Europe, the Americas, and Africa; Europe, the Middle East, and South/Southeast Asia; and South/Southeast Asia and East Asia. There are some articles which refer solely to Europe/Mediterranean and should stay that way (I'm thinking Middle Ages and Classical antiquity), but this article is not one of them. InvaderCito ( talk) 23:25, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The section on the Ottoman Empire here is extremely small for such an important state at this time. Someone needs to start adding material to that area. Additionally, there is little mention of Russian developments and characteristics beyond the tsardom. Someone should expand on that as well. Is anyone well-versed in the Ottoman Empire or early Russia or at least have resources to use on these subjects? — InvaderCito ( talk) 19:12, 8 June 2013 (UTC)
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Not actually looked into the article yet, but judging by its Table of Contents, it seems to give a more globally balanced representation of historical developments of the period. The lede / introductory paragraph seems to only have a figleaf sentence referring to developments other than those based in Europe...
I know, I know, be bold, and make changes you are lobbying for, but I just thought asking first might be a good idea. 37.49.76.172 ( talk) 17:11, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
"...who could be compelled to work..." I assume this is alluding to indigenous American slavery after a pandemic, caused by a lack of immunity to Old World diseases, wiped out a large portion of the population. Compelled is a strange choice of word in that context. Anyway many native Americans ended up dying because they were far too ill to do anything remotely physical so African slaves were brought over in order to complete that 'work'. Concentrating the colonies in highly populated areas wasn't much of a choice either as the warriors that defeated the native empires comprised mostly of other native nations. As mentioned previously in the subsequent years native Americans, including indigenous allies, ended up succumbing to 'Old World' diseases. These chain of events allowed Westernized biracials or 'mestizos', who have outnumbered those of pure European descent from early on in the colonization period, to gain the ascendancy and thrive at the expense of the native population.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.48.183 ( talk) 03:03, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
In Japanese historiography, "early modern" (近世 kinsei) almost always refers to either Edo period or both the Edo and Azuchi–Momoyama periods, but this article seems to extend it a century earlier to cover the entire Sengoku period and coincide with the period of European history defined in the first paragraph of the lead. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 10:04, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
There is a worrying amount of non-cited work in this page. I will slowly build up inserting citation here and there over time. Anyone else is welcomed to do so. Thanks Danial Bass ( talk) 00:02, 29 May 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mello hi! ( 投稿) 03:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
– Late modern history is sometimes referred to as modern history. I think it is worth the discussion to determine whether it should be at late modern or modern. Early modern should be moved to maintain consistency. Interstellarity ( talk) 01:56, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
This article needs to get a proper grasp on how the concept of "early modern" is actually used. Seems like the article scope has kinda evolved organically but with no input based on how professional historians actually deal with the concept.
Has anyone actually tried reading up on the theoretical underpinnings of the concept of "early modern"? Or any kind of scholarly definition of the term? Peter Isotalo 20:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
I've raised the problems in this and the related articles modern era, late modern period and modernity in Wikiproject History. Thread can be found here: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject History#Modernity articles are a hot mess
I recommend a joint discussion for all these articles since they seem to suffer from very similar issues. Peter Isotalo 13:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)