This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Given the potentially contentious nature of these accusations, I'm not going to add this to the article myself, but I think there ought to be a discussion here on the talk page over whether and how the subject of this lawsuit should be covered in the article. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:40, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
I found two sources that seem to pass the test: the the International Business Times (which is generally regarded as mainstream and reliable), and Sputnik (owned by the Russian government, which is hardly biased against Trump; Putin and Trump are rather chummy, in fact). FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 22:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Update: Several hours ago, another woman (Jill Harth) also went public with sexual assault accusations against Trump. Unlike Johnson, Harth was not a minor at the time. See [9] and [10]. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Another update: Robert Morrow (Texas politician), the chairman of the Travis County, TX Republican Party, has publicly expressed belief in the allegations and withdrawn his support of Trump as a result, instead switching to Gary Johnson. This is already mentioned in Morrow's article. Given that Morrow was actually compared to Trump in the media following his election, this is somewhat ironic. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 23:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Notable and big stuff : i'll include it myself. Jombagale ( talk) 23:45, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but i may add that case, in a good manner and with sources. Ok? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jombagale ( talk • contribs) 00:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't see consensus here for adding a reference to this subject. CFredkin ( talk) 00:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The rape lawsuit is now mentioned in Legal affairs of Donald Trump, and the section devoted to it is quite lengthy. If it's covered there, it might not need to be mentioned here, at least not just yet. (In comparison, Epstein doesn't have a separate article devoted only to his legal affairs, so there's no place to put the accusations against Epstein other than his own article, where they currently reside). FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Someone just attempted to add it to this article, citing snopes.com and the Daily Mail. I've removed it on WP:BLP grounds. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
User CFredkin feels that the insertion of Buffett's challenge to Trump to release his tax returns is not significant because "his (Buffett)'s notability is diminished by the fact that he's campaigning for Hilary". Nonsense. First, Buffett's notability isn't the issue here. He is, of course, a notable figure being the third richest man in the world. The significant facts are that 1) He is under an IRS audit (the excuse Trump uses for not releasing his tax returns) and 2) In spite of this audit he is willing to release his tax returns even though there is no public expectation that he do so since he is not running for office. His challenge without a doubt makes Trump's argument for not releasing tax info significantly weaker. Further, CFredkin's argument that "Buffett is campaigning for Hillary" is doubtful. He has endorsed her but is no more campaigning for her than Paul Ryan is campaigning for Trump. Is CFredkin claiming that Buffett is lying because he has endorsed Clinton? My insertion (which CFredkin deleted) read as follows: " Fellow billionaire Warren Buffett who is also under an IRS audit issued a challenge to Trump to have a joint press conference simultaneously releasing their tax returns and answering any press questions [164]" ref: Reilly, Katie. "Warren Buffett Challenges Donald Trump to Release Tax Returns". time.com. Time Magazine. Retrieved August 10, 2016. Gaas99 ( talk) 03:37, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Why are the editors blocking actual discussion of Donald Trump's racism and demagoguery? Today he advocates killing - maybe judges, maybe Hillary Clinton, maybe anyone: "If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is, I don’t know.”
What on Earth is wrong with the editors, incapable of reflecting any of this? Some simple solutions could include references to Trump's racism and authoritarianism by quoting any of the millions of articles discussing it, and then quoting Trump's denial, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-i-am-the-least-racist-person/2016/06/10/eac7874c-2f3a-11e6-9de3-6e6e7a14000c_story.html
But there is something seriously wrong, especially editors like User:Dervorguilla, whose only function seems to be to silence criticism. Wik idea 20:00, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
This article isn't mentioning Trumps narcissism ONCE. Seriously dear American editors, you have a narcissistic autocrat in your front garden who's about to enter your house. The reluctance to write down obvious and often mentioned and analysed psychological facts isn't neutrality. Be bold. Greetings from Germany, we had our fair share of autocratic leader cult here. Didn't went well at all. -- Jensbest ( talk) 00:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
@Jensbest is correct about this. This page has been taken over by editors who are not willing to allow mainstream views of Trump's racism, demagoguery, and his escalation of violent hate speech. It is bias. Wik idea 03:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
The reason this article is so bias is because a huge number of editors currently editing it are pro-Trump POV-pushers. If you are interested in a NPOV, I hope you will stick around and revert some of their edits. It is impossible, given the 1RR per 24 rule, to stop them all unless more NPOV editors become interested in this article. Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 17:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Admin warning: Do not speculate if people are likely sociopaths. Non-admin reminder: Please remember to WP:AGF with your fellow editors. -- NeilN talk to me 18:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Might as well try to fix some of the problems now while there in a NPOV editor in the house. I added the following, this topic header is a good place to discuss it.
Mainstream commentators and some prominent Republicans have viewed him as appealing explicitly to racism. [1]
References
This is not the first time Trump has been forced to disavow or distance himself from anti-Semitic or white supremacist connections... Leaders of his own party were publicly appalled. Trump eventually tweeted an official disavowal and blamed a faulty earpiece for his initial response. But anti-Semitic and white nationalist rhetoric has continued to dog the candidate. Trump has been accused of knowingly whipping up racist sentiment among his supporters. He denies it but declines to explain how anti-Semitic memes keeping making their way into his own tweets.
What do you think? Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 18:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I have removed the POV tag at the top of the article. Please don't add it back. The entire article is not biased. Everything is referenced. If there are specific sentences you'd like us to look at, please tell us here. But I think it's fine. Zigzig20s ( talk) 20:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, adding a tag is an edit and yes, it needs firm consensus to stay if challenged. -- NeilN talk to me 16:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Three editors continue to push for the inclusion of Curiel’s membership in the Hispanic National Bar Association and the HNBA boycott in the Trump University section (see the Trump University section above). To date, there is no mention of the Curiel’s membership in the HNBA or the HBNA boycott in the Wikipedia
Trump University article, where I would expect to see it if it was significant. As are most Hispanic lawyers in the US, the judge is a member of the HNBA , but he has never expressed support for the boycott and there is no evidence he is even aware of it. The judge’s membership and the boycott was in a press release by the Trump campaign, but appears is very few NPOV press articles on Trump University and appears to be dismissed as FUD by most NPOV news sources.
Should Judge Curiel’s membership in the Hispanic National Bar Association be in the Donald Trump article?
Gouncbeatduke (
talk) 13:23, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Trump repeatedly criticized a judge, Gonzalo P. Curiel, who is overseeing two of the Trump University cases. During campaign speeches and interviews up until June 2016, Trump called Curiel a "hater of Donald Trump", saying his rulings have been unfair, and that Curiel "happens to be, we believe, Mexican, which is great. I think that's fine", [1] while suggesting that the judge's ethnicity posed a conflict of interest in light of Trump's proposal to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Many legal experts were critical of Trump's attacks on Curiel, often viewing them as racially charged, unfounded, and an affront to the concept of an independent judiciary. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] On June 7, 2016 Trump issued a lengthy statement saying that his criticism of the judge had been "misconstrued" and that his concerns about Curiel's impartiality were not based upon ethnicity alone, but also upon rulings in the case. [13] [14]
References
Mr. Trump accused the judge of bias, falsely said he was Mexican and seemed to issue a threat
Donald Trump on Thursday escalated his attacks on the federal judge presiding over civil fraud lawsuits against Trump University, amid criticism from legal observers who say the presumptive GOP presidential nominee's comments are an unusual affront on an independent judiciary
A growing chorus of American legal scholars from the left, right, and beyond says [Trump's] remarks threaten the rule of law. The real-estate businessman also has another problem: There's no evidence whatsoever in the public record to support Trump's claims about Curiel
Donald Trump's highly personal, racially tinged attacks on a federal judge overseeing a pair of lawsuits against him have set off a wave of alarm among legal experts, who worry that the Republican presidential candidate's vendetta signals a remarkable disregard for judicial independence
Experts in legal ethics say that seeking to discredit a judge is not a winning strategy and that the suggestion that Judge Curiel could not treat a case fairly because of his ethnicity raises questions about Mr. Trump's ability to appoint judges
I do not intend to comment on this matter any further
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 20:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
It depends The editor who started this RFC wants to include an explicit statement (in the lead no less), that Trump has made appeals to racists or racism. To the extent that that is based on the Curiel incident, I don't see how you can include racism charges in this article, without including Trumps' statements that he believes a hispanic judge could be impartial, and that he was inferring bias on Curiel's part from actions that Trump thinks were unfair in combination with Curiel's ethnicity and membership in an organization which had specifically announced a boycott of Trump. What I see here is an attempt to exclude all exculpatory sources as to racism, while putting the very inflammatory racism charge in the lead and elsewhere in this article. To me, it seems very POVish, not neutral at all. Moreover, CNN and the LA Times are considered about as reliable and well-read as any sources at Wikipedia. Incidentally, the decision to boycott Trump had nothing to do with the Trump University case, AFAIK.
Anythingyouwant (
talk) 13:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
For Reference, here is the specific text referred to in the RfC above. The bolded bit is what has been proposed for insertion...
During campaign speeches, Trump has repeatedly called the judge currently hearing one Trump University case a "hater" and described him as "Spanish" or "Mexican." [1] Trump initially stated that he believed the judge, who was born in Indiana, was biased against him because of his controversial immigration proposals. Trump's references to the judge's ethnicity, as well as his comments that "someone ought to look into" the judge, have led some legal experts to express concern about the effects of the comments on judicial independence. [2] [3] In response to the criticism, Trump and his campaign have pointed out that the judge belongs to the Hispanic National Bar Association which has called for a boycott of all Trump's businesses. [4] [5]
References
In an interview, Mr. Trump said U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel had 'an absolute conflict' in presiding over the litigation given that he was 'of Mexican heritage' and a member of a Latino lawyers' association.
References
trialdate
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Donald Trump on Thursday escalated his attacks on the federal judge presiding over civil fraud lawsuits against Trump University, amid criticism from legal observers who say the presumptive GOP presidential nominee's comments are an unusual affront on an independent judiciary
A growing chorus of American legal scholars from the left, right, and beyond says [Trump's] remarks threaten the rule of law. The real-estate businessman also has another problem: There's no evidence whatsoever in the public record to support Trump's claims about Curiel
Donald Trump's highly personal, racially tinged attacks on a federal judge overseeing a pair of lawsuits against him have set off a wave of alarm among legal experts, who worry that the Republican presidential candidate's vendetta signals a remarkable disregard for judicial independence
Experts in legal ethics say that seeking to discredit a judge is not a winning strategy and that the suggestion that Judge Curiel could not treat a case fairly because of his ethnicity raises questions about Mr. Trump's ability to appoint judges
I don't know who rewrote this paragraph, but IMO the original paragraph was better. It does a better job of describing what Trump actually said, and it includes the public response to Trump's comments as well as his later explanation that he was talking about the judge's decisions. I think the original wording, as described above, should be restored while we debate whether to add the membership issue (which I oppose). That is the wording being discussed here at this RfC; if it is no longer what the article says, then this discussion is moot. I am going to put the above-quoted wording ("what this BLP says right now") back into the article. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:30, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
This edit with the misleading edit summary of "same, rephrasing for conciseness" removed "If elected, Trump would become the first U.S. President without prior government or military experience." Please kindly correct what surely was just an honest mistake. Thanks.
--TMCk (
talk) 20:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe needs
a ping before more gets accidentally removed.
--TMCk (
talk) 20:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
It was not a mistake. BEFORE: "Trump is the second major-party presidential nominee in American history whose experience comes principally from running a business ( Wendell Willkie was the first). If elected, Trump would become the first U.S. President without prior government or military experience." AFTER: "Trump is the second major-party presidential nominee in American history whose experience comes principally from running a business rather than from government or military service ( Wendell Willkie was the first)." All the info is still there. This shortening was proposed by another editor above. It's conciser, and avoid the crystal ball language. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:00, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I was editing mainly for conciseness when I edited the sentence about not having government or military experience, as stated in my edit summary. I put in a more concise version that had been supported above at this talk page for other reasons. It's perfectly accurate and understandable the way it is. If people don't realize that Willkie never became president, then they ought to click the wikilink and learn about him. The whole thing about "Trump will be the oldest person who ever becomes president...." is an analogous issue involving the future event of becoming president, and was discussed at length above. Talk:Donald_Trump#Age, so I don't favor re-hashing the whole crystal ball issue. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:30, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, what is your reason for this undoing of the work of multiple other editors? There was no consensus against these edits. Simply saying there was no consensus for these edits isn't enough. The folks who deleted the content gave their reasons for doing so in their edit summaries; please respond. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 21:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I like the picture of the skating rink that had been there for many months with an informative caption. He renovated it, so it's not like the removed church pic at all. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
In a recent article in Politico, the author provides information about the short-lived Trump magazine. Right now this venture is in the bio article only in the listing of miscellaneous Trump ventures. Unlike others in that list, the reference is unlinked. Should we create a daughter article about the magazine or, if there's not enough information to warrant a separate article, include some basic information in this article? JamesMLane t c 18:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Per WP:SCROLL, we're not supposed to include a family tree that toggles between hide and show. We also don't need two separate sections in this BLP titled "Ancestry". I have started a new article Ancestry of Donald Trump that includes the family tree without toggling. The ancestry stuff in this BLP needs to be accordingly shortened to summarize the new article. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 02:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
Given the potentially contentious nature of these accusations, I'm not going to add this to the article myself, but I think there ought to be a discussion here on the talk page over whether and how the subject of this lawsuit should be covered in the article. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:40, 24 June 2016 (UTC)
I found two sources that seem to pass the test: the the International Business Times (which is generally regarded as mainstream and reliable), and Sputnik (owned by the Russian government, which is hardly biased against Trump; Putin and Trump are rather chummy, in fact). FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 22:21, 10 July 2016 (UTC)
Update: Several hours ago, another woman (Jill Harth) also went public with sexual assault accusations against Trump. Unlike Johnson, Harth was not a minor at the time. See [9] and [10]. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Another update: Robert Morrow (Texas politician), the chairman of the Travis County, TX Republican Party, has publicly expressed belief in the allegations and withdrawn his support of Trump as a result, instead switching to Gary Johnson. This is already mentioned in Morrow's article. Given that Morrow was actually compared to Trump in the media following his election, this is somewhat ironic. FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 23:07, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Notable and big stuff : i'll include it myself. Jombagale ( talk) 23:45, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
Sorry but i may add that case, in a good manner and with sources. Ok? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jombagale ( talk • contribs) 00:02, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't see consensus here for adding a reference to this subject. CFredkin ( talk) 00:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
The rape lawsuit is now mentioned in Legal affairs of Donald Trump, and the section devoted to it is quite lengthy. If it's covered there, it might not need to be mentioned here, at least not just yet. (In comparison, Epstein doesn't have a separate article devoted only to his legal affairs, so there's no place to put the accusations against Epstein other than his own article, where they currently reside). FiredanceThroughTheNight ( talk) 06:41, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Someone just attempted to add it to this article, citing snopes.com and the Daily Mail. I've removed it on WP:BLP grounds. -- Hammersoft ( talk) 22:23, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
User CFredkin feels that the insertion of Buffett's challenge to Trump to release his tax returns is not significant because "his (Buffett)'s notability is diminished by the fact that he's campaigning for Hilary". Nonsense. First, Buffett's notability isn't the issue here. He is, of course, a notable figure being the third richest man in the world. The significant facts are that 1) He is under an IRS audit (the excuse Trump uses for not releasing his tax returns) and 2) In spite of this audit he is willing to release his tax returns even though there is no public expectation that he do so since he is not running for office. His challenge without a doubt makes Trump's argument for not releasing tax info significantly weaker. Further, CFredkin's argument that "Buffett is campaigning for Hillary" is doubtful. He has endorsed her but is no more campaigning for her than Paul Ryan is campaigning for Trump. Is CFredkin claiming that Buffett is lying because he has endorsed Clinton? My insertion (which CFredkin deleted) read as follows: " Fellow billionaire Warren Buffett who is also under an IRS audit issued a challenge to Trump to have a joint press conference simultaneously releasing their tax returns and answering any press questions [164]" ref: Reilly, Katie. "Warren Buffett Challenges Donald Trump to Release Tax Returns". time.com. Time Magazine. Retrieved August 10, 2016. Gaas99 ( talk) 03:37, 13 August 2016 (UTC)
Why are the editors blocking actual discussion of Donald Trump's racism and demagoguery? Today he advocates killing - maybe judges, maybe Hillary Clinton, maybe anyone: "If she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the second amendment people, maybe there is, I don’t know.”
What on Earth is wrong with the editors, incapable of reflecting any of this? Some simple solutions could include references to Trump's racism and authoritarianism by quoting any of the millions of articles discussing it, and then quoting Trump's denial, e.g. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-i-am-the-least-racist-person/2016/06/10/eac7874c-2f3a-11e6-9de3-6e6e7a14000c_story.html
But there is something seriously wrong, especially editors like User:Dervorguilla, whose only function seems to be to silence criticism. Wik idea 20:00, 9 August 2016 (UTC)
This article isn't mentioning Trumps narcissism ONCE. Seriously dear American editors, you have a narcissistic autocrat in your front garden who's about to enter your house. The reluctance to write down obvious and often mentioned and analysed psychological facts isn't neutrality. Be bold. Greetings from Germany, we had our fair share of autocratic leader cult here. Didn't went well at all. -- Jensbest ( talk) 00:02, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
@Jensbest is correct about this. This page has been taken over by editors who are not willing to allow mainstream views of Trump's racism, demagoguery, and his escalation of violent hate speech. It is bias. Wik idea 03:15, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
The reason this article is so bias is because a huge number of editors currently editing it are pro-Trump POV-pushers. If you are interested in a NPOV, I hope you will stick around and revert some of their edits. It is impossible, given the 1RR per 24 rule, to stop them all unless more NPOV editors become interested in this article. Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 17:55, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Admin warning: Do not speculate if people are likely sociopaths. Non-admin reminder: Please remember to WP:AGF with your fellow editors. -- NeilN talk to me 18:07, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Might as well try to fix some of the problems now while there in a NPOV editor in the house. I added the following, this topic header is a good place to discuss it.
Mainstream commentators and some prominent Republicans have viewed him as appealing explicitly to racism. [1]
References
This is not the first time Trump has been forced to disavow or distance himself from anti-Semitic or white supremacist connections... Leaders of his own party were publicly appalled. Trump eventually tweeted an official disavowal and blamed a faulty earpiece for his initial response. But anti-Semitic and white nationalist rhetoric has continued to dog the candidate. Trump has been accused of knowingly whipping up racist sentiment among his supporters. He denies it but declines to explain how anti-Semitic memes keeping making their way into his own tweets.
What do you think? Gouncbeatduke ( talk) 18:17, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
I have removed the POV tag at the top of the article. Please don't add it back. The entire article is not biased. Everything is referenced. If there are specific sentences you'd like us to look at, please tell us here. But I think it's fine. Zigzig20s ( talk) 20:03, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Yes, adding a tag is an edit and yes, it needs firm consensus to stay if challenged. -- NeilN talk to me 16:58, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
Three editors continue to push for the inclusion of Curiel’s membership in the Hispanic National Bar Association and the HNBA boycott in the Trump University section (see the Trump University section above). To date, there is no mention of the Curiel’s membership in the HNBA or the HBNA boycott in the Wikipedia
Trump University article, where I would expect to see it if it was significant. As are most Hispanic lawyers in the US, the judge is a member of the HNBA , but he has never expressed support for the boycott and there is no evidence he is even aware of it. The judge’s membership and the boycott was in a press release by the Trump campaign, but appears is very few NPOV press articles on Trump University and appears to be dismissed as FUD by most NPOV news sources.
Should Judge Curiel’s membership in the Hispanic National Bar Association be in the Donald Trump article?
Gouncbeatduke (
talk) 13:23, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
Trump repeatedly criticized a judge, Gonzalo P. Curiel, who is overseeing two of the Trump University cases. During campaign speeches and interviews up until June 2016, Trump called Curiel a "hater of Donald Trump", saying his rulings have been unfair, and that Curiel "happens to be, we believe, Mexican, which is great. I think that's fine", [1] while suggesting that the judge's ethnicity posed a conflict of interest in light of Trump's proposal to build a wall on the U.S.-Mexican border. [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Many legal experts were critical of Trump's attacks on Curiel, often viewing them as racially charged, unfounded, and an affront to the concept of an independent judiciary. [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] On June 7, 2016 Trump issued a lengthy statement saying that his criticism of the judge had been "misconstrued" and that his concerns about Curiel's impartiality were not based upon ethnicity alone, but also upon rulings in the case. [13] [14]
References
Mr. Trump accused the judge of bias, falsely said he was Mexican and seemed to issue a threat
Donald Trump on Thursday escalated his attacks on the federal judge presiding over civil fraud lawsuits against Trump University, amid criticism from legal observers who say the presumptive GOP presidential nominee's comments are an unusual affront on an independent judiciary
A growing chorus of American legal scholars from the left, right, and beyond says [Trump's] remarks threaten the rule of law. The real-estate businessman also has another problem: There's no evidence whatsoever in the public record to support Trump's claims about Curiel
Donald Trump's highly personal, racially tinged attacks on a federal judge overseeing a pair of lawsuits against him have set off a wave of alarm among legal experts, who worry that the Republican presidential candidate's vendetta signals a remarkable disregard for judicial independence
Experts in legal ethics say that seeking to discredit a judge is not a winning strategy and that the suggestion that Judge Curiel could not treat a case fairly because of his ethnicity raises questions about Mr. Trump's ability to appoint judges
I do not intend to comment on this matter any further
Anythingyouwant ( talk) 20:43, 12 August 2016 (UTC)
It depends The editor who started this RFC wants to include an explicit statement (in the lead no less), that Trump has made appeals to racists or racism. To the extent that that is based on the Curiel incident, I don't see how you can include racism charges in this article, without including Trumps' statements that he believes a hispanic judge could be impartial, and that he was inferring bias on Curiel's part from actions that Trump thinks were unfair in combination with Curiel's ethnicity and membership in an organization which had specifically announced a boycott of Trump. What I see here is an attempt to exclude all exculpatory sources as to racism, while putting the very inflammatory racism charge in the lead and elsewhere in this article. To me, it seems very POVish, not neutral at all. Moreover, CNN and the LA Times are considered about as reliable and well-read as any sources at Wikipedia. Incidentally, the decision to boycott Trump had nothing to do with the Trump University case, AFAIK.
Anythingyouwant (
talk) 13:33, 11 August 2016 (UTC)
For Reference, here is the specific text referred to in the RfC above. The bolded bit is what has been proposed for insertion...
During campaign speeches, Trump has repeatedly called the judge currently hearing one Trump University case a "hater" and described him as "Spanish" or "Mexican." [1] Trump initially stated that he believed the judge, who was born in Indiana, was biased against him because of his controversial immigration proposals. Trump's references to the judge's ethnicity, as well as his comments that "someone ought to look into" the judge, have led some legal experts to express concern about the effects of the comments on judicial independence. [2] [3] In response to the criticism, Trump and his campaign have pointed out that the judge belongs to the Hispanic National Bar Association which has called for a boycott of all Trump's businesses. [4] [5]
References
In an interview, Mr. Trump said U.S. District Judge Gonzalo Curiel had 'an absolute conflict' in presiding over the litigation given that he was 'of Mexican heritage' and a member of a Latino lawyers' association.
References
trialdate
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).Donald Trump on Thursday escalated his attacks on the federal judge presiding over civil fraud lawsuits against Trump University, amid criticism from legal observers who say the presumptive GOP presidential nominee's comments are an unusual affront on an independent judiciary
A growing chorus of American legal scholars from the left, right, and beyond says [Trump's] remarks threaten the rule of law. The real-estate businessman also has another problem: There's no evidence whatsoever in the public record to support Trump's claims about Curiel
Donald Trump's highly personal, racially tinged attacks on a federal judge overseeing a pair of lawsuits against him have set off a wave of alarm among legal experts, who worry that the Republican presidential candidate's vendetta signals a remarkable disregard for judicial independence
Experts in legal ethics say that seeking to discredit a judge is not a winning strategy and that the suggestion that Judge Curiel could not treat a case fairly because of his ethnicity raises questions about Mr. Trump's ability to appoint judges
I don't know who rewrote this paragraph, but IMO the original paragraph was better. It does a better job of describing what Trump actually said, and it includes the public response to Trump's comments as well as his later explanation that he was talking about the judge's decisions. I think the original wording, as described above, should be restored while we debate whether to add the membership issue (which I oppose). That is the wording being discussed here at this RfC; if it is no longer what the article says, then this discussion is moot. I am going to put the above-quoted wording ("what this BLP says right now") back into the article. -- MelanieN ( talk) 16:30, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
This edit with the misleading edit summary of "same, rephrasing for conciseness" removed "If elected, Trump would become the first U.S. President without prior government or military experience." Please kindly correct what surely was just an honest mistake. Thanks.
--TMCk (
talk) 20:21, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Maybe needs
a ping before more gets accidentally removed.
--TMCk (
talk) 20:55, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
It was not a mistake. BEFORE: "Trump is the second major-party presidential nominee in American history whose experience comes principally from running a business ( Wendell Willkie was the first). If elected, Trump would become the first U.S. President without prior government or military experience." AFTER: "Trump is the second major-party presidential nominee in American history whose experience comes principally from running a business rather than from government or military service ( Wendell Willkie was the first)." All the info is still there. This shortening was proposed by another editor above. It's conciser, and avoid the crystal ball language. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 21:00, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I was editing mainly for conciseness when I edited the sentence about not having government or military experience, as stated in my edit summary. I put in a more concise version that had been supported above at this talk page for other reasons. It's perfectly accurate and understandable the way it is. If people don't realize that Willkie never became president, then they ought to click the wikilink and learn about him. The whole thing about "Trump will be the oldest person who ever becomes president...." is an analogous issue involving the future event of becoming president, and was discussed at length above. Talk:Donald_Trump#Age, so I don't favor re-hashing the whole crystal ball issue. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:30, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Volunteer Marek, what is your reason for this undoing of the work of multiple other editors? There was no consensus against these edits. Simply saying there was no consensus for these edits isn't enough. The folks who deleted the content gave their reasons for doing so in their edit summaries; please respond. -- Dr. Fleischman ( talk) 21:52, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
I like the picture of the skating rink that had been there for many months with an informative caption. He renovated it, so it's not like the removed church pic at all. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 22:15, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
In a recent article in Politico, the author provides information about the short-lived Trump magazine. Right now this venture is in the bio article only in the listing of miscellaneous Trump ventures. Unlike others in that list, the reference is unlinked. Should we create a daughter article about the magazine or, if there's not enough information to warrant a separate article, include some basic information in this article? JamesMLane t c 18:09, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
Per WP:SCROLL, we're not supposed to include a family tree that toggles between hide and show. We also don't need two separate sections in this BLP titled "Ancestry". I have started a new article Ancestry of Donald Trump that includes the family tree without toggling. The ancestry stuff in this BLP needs to be accordingly shortened to summarize the new article. Anythingyouwant ( talk) 02:19, 17 August 2016 (UTC)