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I believe this page is a mess, and it needs a top level view to suceed. For now, it would be useful to separate the "See Also" links into some categories. Matt Whyndham 13:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is worse than a mess! It just gets worse. It is not a reliable entry. Yes, I know the response is 'well, be our guest', but it really needs most of what's there to be deleted and someone to start it all over again - and I expect there would be lots of complaints and reverts if someone does so. Nigel Cross 18:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This section was both unfounded and incorrect. I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.158.1.32 ( talk) 21:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed some things from the article.
First, I'm trying to expand the philosophical part of the article, and this definition, unfortunately, does not expand to cover all senses of design now discussed in the article:
Second, I'm removing this, because I don't understand why architecture needs special treatment, above and beyond that given to, say, industrial design. Hopefully someone will restore the relevant parts.
Here are some thoughts that I would like to refine and somehow incorperate into the article: In the realm of the arts, design is more relevent to the applied' arts, such as graphic arts, architechture, product design, ... Design implies a concious effort to create something that is both functional and aesthetically pleasing. For example a graphic artist may design an advertisement poster. This person's job is to communicate the advertisement message (functional aspect) and to make it look good (astetically pleasing). The distinction between pure and applied arts is not completely clear, but we could take Jackson Pollock's splatter paintings as an example of pure art. Sure his art may convey some message, but there are obvious differences between the kind of concrete information in a poster and the message of a Jackson Pollock. Second, I think that a reasonable person would agree that Pollock worked more intuitively than the graphic artist's concious effort to design the poster. This is not to say that Pollock did not have some sort of a priori idea of what he was going to paint before he started (I have no idea whether he did or not). I guess my point is that on the spectrum between pure and applied art, degree of design is the the most important factor. User:Ike9898
One more comment, on a slightly different vein...one might say that anything that a person makes is designed. To an extent I guess this is true. Things can be well designed or poorly designed. But i would say that something produced with out significant conscious effort is not truely designed. At the moment I am having trouble thinking of uncontroversial examples, so he's a controversial one.... Assuming you agree with mainstream evolutionary therory (as I do) living creatures are not designed, their bodies are the way they are as the result of a natural, unconcious process (evolution). (Please, I realize that not everyone agrees with evolution, let's not discuss that here). User:Ike9898
sounds like design to me. change and adaptation is true, never was in question, but many species require that all their organs and nerves be in a certain place and in certain order and "design." In that it is incorrect to say it is undesigned, especially sense no matter what changes have evolved, the blueprint and function remains the same. You will not see penguins over time evolve into flying birds. Just won't happen. So you could say in the natural world there is an implied design, but an even more uncomfortable topic many wish not to acknowledge due to the controversy, a designer. The second part of the statement is what keeps this observable fact surpressed until a cause can be found for a universe magically being created through natural causes, doesn't fly in the realm of true science and not psuedo or theroretical "science." To avoid an edit war on this article, avoid making any reference to Design Theory because both sides are wrong, equally biased and ignorant, and just stick with what we know, not what we speculate. Science and Religion have never been at odds. It is the starting theological points of that are at odds, not the validity of claims and observations.
Why has this article got a disambiguation notice? Above (in this talk) there are some fantastic ideas for an article. If I take off the {{disambig}} notice, is it ok to leave the really long "See also" section, which is useful for readers? Any thoughts are welcome.-- Commander Keane 17:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder, too. Surely Design can stand alone as a topic? The 'article' is a mess as it stands. I'm not so sure about the fantastic-ness of the comments, though. The article should avoid straying into art versus design, and into 'intentional design' (creationism). I think there could be a perfectly straightforward article on Design, and the beginnings are there. Nigel Cross 18:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I have revised and rearranged the original bits and pieces of content in order to try to begin a coherent article. It could use more work. I really don't understand what the intention(s) of the author(s) were behind the 'Basic Categories' contents - I don't understand them. Unless anyone can explain, I suggest that they get deleted. Nigel Cross 15:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
==Basic categories==
Defining water and its forms=Design
This discussion about trying to define Design is very good to read. from all the the words from Designers, i would like to discuss in layers. Oceans, Sea's,Rivers,Lakes,ponds,Dam waters, tap waters, tank waters and what not? so many names. And names depending upon the states of water, liquid, rain, moisture, dew, ice etc., we try to capture(existing things) and relate it to something (humans). The properties of water are, it takes the shape and form of the container, it takes the color of the container too. That is what i think we are trying to do here, trying to define Design. The Oceans, sea's ... are based on the context. The state rain,moisture... are things with some purpose(function) for the context. From the discussion there is a vague understanding that Desing is transient (thats how it is used individually). The scale and Bandwidth or spectrum is huge and wide respectively. Depending upon intra personal, interpersonal and societal perception, words do not stand the same. So is Design. so can we say defining Design = defining Water ? will it stand similar?
Some suggested references for the definition of design:
The definition given is overly wordy, muddled in terminology and vague in its conclusion. The need to appeal to a veriety of attributes of related processes which surround the design phase of any porject during the course of bringing it to fruition reveals the weakness of the statement as a definition. My experience comes from over 40 years in aircraft, defence and commercial engineering in design, planning, manufacturing and quality. However I want to respect the ideals and values of the Wiki encylcopedia. I also need to appologize for not being able to strongly reference what I am about to say but I would claim that the following is very widely known accross the engineering profession.
There are three distinct phases to the execution or creation of a design.
1. The Design phase is where the specification is written, it is no more or less than the creation of piece of signal information, (even if it only ever resides in the mind of its creator). This also includes any material specification.
2. The Planning phase is where such questions as where, when, how many, what tooling is required, what is the quality standard, source of material, batch size, etc are answered.
3. The Make phase where such issues as training, qualifications, cost collection, OH&S, workshop procedures, machine availability and alternatives etc are considered.
Vh mby ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC).
This relates to the definition as well as the history of Design: The word is related to the Italian Disegno, meaning "drawing", which is the painter's preparation for a painting. Also useful: A "design", especially in literature, is used for a plot or scheme that a character is planning. I think these sources of the word help define it, even if the article itself is more strictly geared to the engineering-type contexts of the word. --
Realedr (
talk) 13:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with a broad spectrum of examples however the fundamental meaning should not be clouded in such a way as to confuse that meaning.. the discipline is irrelevant for instance considering the following.. in the article..
"Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed."
So to not to exclude the biosphere I would also propose DNA meets the criteria for a design specification of a living organism. Vh mby ( talk) 13:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
What about the history of design? In some ways, design is not a very old profession; the separation of designer and maker only happened in the past 200 years. Industry gave room for a person who could outline a prototype or even just design an object on paper and have a factory produce and assemble it. Unknown user 04:04, 27 November 2006
Reagarding the history of design: Wasn't the entire field called "industrial design" until about 1960? Every time I go to this article I find it as confusing and all-inclusive as a beer-fueled all-night college bull session. Please get to the point!~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.225.197.81 ( talk) 05:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The latest edit of the opening section was a major change. I've read it several times, and it's not obvious to me why certain words were deleted and included. Here was the version before the edit:
Design, usually considered in the context of the applied arts, engineering, architecture, and other such creative endeavours, is a homonym, used as both a noun and a verb. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of originating and developing a plan for a new object (machine, building, product, etc.). As a noun, "design" is used both for the final plan or proposal (a drawing, model, or other description), or the result of implementing that plan or proposal (the object produced).
Designing normally requires considering aesthetic, functional, and many other aspects of an object, which usually requires considerable research, thought, modeling, interactive adjustment, and re-design.
Design as a process can take many forms depending on the object being designed and the individual or individuals participating.
In philosophy, the abstract noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose/purposefulness (or teleology). Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity.
and after 23:33, 28 November 2006 Markwiki:
Design is the manipulation of elements to create a functional and/or pleasing product. It is a homonym, used as both a verb and a noun. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of planning. As a noun, "design" is used for the final plan or final product. The process of designing often includes research and modeling.
The word is most often used in relation to concrete products, such as in the applied arts, engineering, and architecture. In designing concrete items, seven elements are commonly recognized. These are form, mass, shape, line, color, texture and pattern.
In abstract applications, such as philosophy and theology, the noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose. Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity. The philosophical study of abstract design is teleology.
Is it just me, or is there a lot of odd changes here?
1) The word "manipulation" often implies a controversial adjustment. A design can be an arrangement as well as an adjustment.
2) I don't see why the examples in the parenthesis were removed. The sentence may have been a little long, but it could have been divided into multiples sentences rather than stripped of the examples.
3) The word "aesthetics" was removed, a simpler word that could include the seven elements.
4) The seven elements seem to be too specific to graphic design, which excludes the other forms and disciplines of design.
5) Functional design is relevant, but was deleted. It isn't clear if or where function is included in the seven elements.
6) Design seems irrelevant to theology unless you are talking about intelligent design, which is a theory, not a known discipline of design.
Oicumayberight 09:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the last two edits including the reference to the teleological argument. There seems to be an association with Intelligent Design, which has no place in this article. This is an article about what is known regarding the various disciplines of design. Oicumayberight 00:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC) open to evary downlod — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.157.108 ( talk) 15:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Why all the definitions etc from Dino Dini 'in a talk at Liverpool University'? It isn't anything new or especially helpful - many people have said similar things before, with more authority. Or am I missing something? Somebody could rewrite it more objectively? Nigel Cross 17:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole field of design research! I am very disappointed by this design entry (in agreement with Nigel Cross). The answer to his request("be my guest...") is too easy, it is also the responsibility of an author of an entry to look for high quality sources and thorough historical background, or isn't it ?
I moved design process and design philosophy to this page. Oicumayberight 23:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I find it odd to restict Design philosophy to Software engineering only. This should be a very general article IMHO. Patrick L. Goes 12:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Oicumayberight: I see you just made a change saying that "engineering is a form of design". I also see that the discussion under the heading "Design versus engineering" includes what appears to be (IMO) a misinterpretation of the two definitions supplied immediately above it. That discussion says that The most significant distinction (is) the application of "scientific and mathematical principles". However, the full definition of Engineering just supplied is The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.
So another important distinction is being ignored altogether, namely that Engineering is a much broader term, which includes Design as just one component of the definition. The two terms are not equivalent, because Design does not include Engineering. And while one might (speaking very loosely) say that design was a form of engineering, I believe it would be much more accurate to say that design is an aspect of engineering. And one certainly cannot say that engineering is a form of design, because design does not cover the manufacturing and operations aspects of engineering that are included in the definition supplied.
I view this as the general case of the discussion we're having elsewhere about Software Development and Software Design, in which the latter is a subset of the former. And I don't agree with the caption you just (re)wrote, because it is inconsistent with my understanding of the terms, and with their definitions as supplied in the article itself. Regards, Chris Loosley 02:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The Commercial Character Design link under the design disciplines is probably not unique enough to be listed as its own discipline. I'm afraid if we allow that, some will want to list "Greeting Card Design" and every other rare application of communication design. Anyone else with an opinion on this? Oicumayberight 03:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section on "Design Pollution" from the terminology section. It has little to do with terminology. Pollution is not a common term to describe bad design. The section also lacked WP:NPOV by implying that bad design is rarely if ever the fault of the designer. Oicumayberight 19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we start a discussion here about the icons rather than edit-warring? Please follow WP:TALK and WP:CIVIL while doing so. -- Ronz ( talk) 15:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I find the icons somewhat confusing, and maybe unnecessary. I honestly couldn't tell what some of the icons represented, either literally or symbolically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.38.223.243 ( talk) 01:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
(de-indent) If this method of "visual learning" is so effective, then why is this the only article on Wikipedia that uses some of these icons? There is a huge difference between using an icon image in something like {{
algebra-stub}}
(found at the bottom of tagged stub pages) and as an inline image to decorate the section headers. How is a generic square root symbol illustrative of "Design and Engineering"? It's just gratuituous, and it doesn't have support from any editors here. —
Andrwsc (
talk ·
contribs) 23:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
This article has more than one problem. It's not sourced well enough to be making the claims it does, in my opinion. It's not very well structured to give any sort of basic understanding to design. Considering its role as a sort of crossroads leading out into all the various branches of design that may be, it does a bad job at being the tying knot. If people don't mind, I'll go ahead and be bold when possible. Necz0r ( talk) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I am willing and (having just finished my PhD dissertation on Design Science) hopefully qualified to put a lot of work into improving this page. I started by reworking the introduction. I tried to integrate some of the existing text where it fit, but ended up replacing a lot of it. Please leave comments here. I'll give it a week or two, and if no one objects, I will rework another section or two. I think that the major topics that this page should address are: 1) design philosophy, 2) design science, 3) the design process, 4) design methods and method engineering, 5) differences between design in different disciplines, 6) the relationship between design and ethics. Some of these are already here, the others I propose to add. Thoughts anyone? Paulralph ( talk) 19:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
As nobody has objected, I'm going to update the second section to reflect diverse views on the steps designers engage in. If anyone has any suggestions or objections, please discuss here. It may take a few days for me to put together the content. Paul Ralph (Lancaster University) ( talk) 23:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I have reworked the second section (design as a process) to better reflect diverse views on the activities designers engage in. Existing text is partially preserved in the subsection about typical stages associated with the Rational Model. I've referenced the content as much as possible, focusing on well-respected books and peer-reviewed journal and conference papers. I have also begun migrating to a citation/bibliography split format, which makes more sense when you refer to the same papers multiple times. If this is acceptable, I will continue the migration soon. Please check my work for typos, bias and other mistakes. If you feel that this is not a good update, please discuss improvements here rather than reverting. Paul Ralph (Lancaster University) ( talk) 17:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Half of this article is written by one person--presumably Dino himself--on what Dino Dini thinks design is. Unless somebody can show the notability of this person in the field of design and how this doesn't constitute original research I'm pretty much going to remove that entire section. Wentomowameadow ( talk) 13:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to open a space to specifically discuss philosophy and design. At the moment the article includes a welcome attempt to describe issues in this area but it leaves a lot to be desired.
In attempting to improve this area I would suggest making a clear distinction between design philosophies (working theories, ideas, attitudes etc that guide the work of practicing designers), and the Philosophy of Design (contesting theories about the nature of design produced by recognised theorists, philosophers, academics etc.). Of course in reality there might be some blurring or fluidity between these distinctions, but nevertheless I think it is helpful recognise that the philosophical study of design is not the same thing as the working conceptual schema of everyday design practice. A useful comparison might also be that of the theories and philosophies embodied in art movements vs theories and philosophies of aesthetics.
Applying these distinctions to what is currently represented in the article, it is not unfair to say that the current content is muddled, speculative, and fails to represent much of what has been published on these topics. The attempts to actually try to give design a philosophical definition in this article are appalling and uncalled for. What is needed is an overview of what key authors/groups have said regarding design, and an account of dominant areas of philosophical debate within the (very young) field. Ideally an additional article on the philosophy of design would be useful to link to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirrmy ( talk • contribs) 02:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be any discussion of operational design—the relatively new process used by the US military (and others) as a competing process for solving a problem (in simplistic terms). I don't see it as a design discipline at the bottom of the article either. There's been a few dozen books and articles written on this though. Have any other editors here heard of this? -- Airborne84 ( talk) 00:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The beginning of this section seems a bit too formal and too cautious. It is not necessary to "posit" anything about the model. The model doesn't exist independently - you won't discover later that you were wrong. Since the model is itself a concept created by a person, it has whatever characteristics designers most often associate with that model. So, you can just move directly to describing it (as the rest of the section does very well). Blcklbl ( talk) 22:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Seems like there could be a (sub-)section on design and the scientific method - specifically the conceptual processes in research design and design of experiments. Perhaps under terminology?-- A12n ( talk) 20:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Experience optimization (contextually - IT domain) can be defined as a symbiotic process between design (Interaction which is outcome research and analysis, editorial, Visual) and technology (implementation process) that work towards achieving the short term and long term business intent. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumaramanikandan ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
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I removed the latest addition to the definition in the lede of the article. There ae some good points here that need to be addressed [1]. The lede should have a concise definition, while the article body should expand upon the definition and address related issues. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Karl Ulrich of the University of Pennsylvandia defines design as: "Conceiving and giving form to artifacts that solve problems." [2]
Ulrich draws upon the definitions proposed by Edgar Kaufmann Jr. and Klaus Krippendorf. Kaufman, while curator of the industrial design department at the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) 1946–1948, defined design as: “Conceiving and giving form to objects used in everyday life” [3]
Klaus Krippendorf and Reinhart Butter defined design as: "The conscious creation of forms to serve human needs.” [4]
Another definition for design is a roadmap or a strategic approach for someone to achieve a unique expectation. It defines the specifications, plans, parameters, costs, activities, processes and how and what to do within legal, political, social, environmental, safety and economic constraints in achieving that objective. [5]
Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed.
stub for process Lycurgus ( talk) 23:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Conceptual design — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.110.194 ( talk) 11:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, my edit has been reverted by Freshacconci. He not only left no comments but also marked his edit as "Minor edit". He anyway violated the rule: "A check to the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist... Examples include typographical corrections, formatting and presentational changes, and rearrangements of text without modification of its content. A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute". It is clear that both my edit and Freshacconci's edit were not minor at all. So I want to get answer why my edit was reverted and why Freshacconci is violating rules. Евгений Мирошниченко ( talk) 18:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
As this talk page is a bit of a dog's breakfast, I think it's important to start this discussion once again. The last attempt was a few years ago. An edit war yesterday necessitates opening this discussion. Design as a topic is, if not a core article, at least important enough to warrant work towards a stable version. Right now it occasionally attracts editors who feel their personal definition is the proper one and set out to change the lead paragraph, usually without consideration of manual of style issues or general guidelines regarding the lede, as happened yesterday. So with this, I will start the discussion. Please read the guidelines on article lead paragraphs and remember that this is an article about design as a whole, not a subset of design. freshacconci (✉) 15:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
The recent (November 2019) addition of a set of images of neoclassical furnishings gives a dramatic new impression to the whole Design article. I don't find them appropriate or useful additions to the article. They are collectively captioned as 'Various examples of design sketches' but they lack variety and are misleading as to what a design sketch is. They lack variety because they are limited solely to furniture or furnishings, and representing work of one particular historical period or style. They are misleading because they depict finished drawings of design proposals rather than the tentative conceptualisations normally associated with a design sketch. They (perhaps) belong elsewhere as illustrations of neoclassical style in interior design. Here, they convey a very restricted interpretation of 'Design' (the article topic) and do not relate to any of the other content of the article and therefore do not 'illustrate' anything in the article. The editor who inserted the images, 'Neoclassicism Enthusiast', may be well intentioned, and is obviously enthusiastic about neoclassicism, but the images are a misplaced intrusion into this particular article. I suggest that they are inappropriate and should be removed. Designergene ( talk) 16:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Deſign. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 23:01, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I think the article is well reviewed, have strong elements and good sources. I think it would be a good idea to maybe add some photos just to make it more interesting. It helped me improved my article because it gave me ideas on how to edit mine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KVB2020UPRC ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
graphic design — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.177.172.132 ( talk) 09:40, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I was reading this article http://purposeandperspective.co/hand-crafted/ while editing the Wikipedia article on the subject, and it reminded me of a concept I'd seen alluded to in other articles but never understood: intentional design. I was thinking of creating a separate Wikipedia article on intentional design and started gathering references and concepts /info/en/?search=User:Greg_Dahlen/intentional_design?venotify=created#Intentional_design. But I would like to know if the current article on Design, the subject of this talk page, already covers it? It would have to be under a different term than "intentional design," since that term isn't in the article. I'm not facile enough yet with these concepts of design approach to say if intentional design is already covered in the Design article and hence I don't need to create a new, separate article.
When it comes to intentional design, I'm thinking generally in terms of product design. Greg Dahlen ( talk) 17:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The ‘Types’ section now seems out of date and confused. ‘Art’, ‘Engineering’ and ‘Production’ are not ‘types’ of design. ‘Process design’ is already linked in the list of ‘Design disciplines’ as are Engineering design and Production design and Applied arts, etc. So the ‘Types’ section seems to be un-necessary. It seems to be a kind of limited set of statements of ‘compare and contrast’ design with art, engineering, etc. Why? The opening sentence refers to ‘various fields’ rather than ‘types’, and the section below lists ‘Design disciplines’, which are particular types of design fields or application areas. The whole section is confused and composed of loose generalisations or opinions. It doesn’t add to understanding of Design, which is now sufficiently well-established on its own to not need to try to explain how it is different from art, engineering, etc. I would like to propose that it is no longer fit for purpose and should be deleted. Designergene ( talk) 10:15, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
say about it 175.100.10.3 ( talk) 16:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
I reverted the addition of a Charles Eames quote to the lead. My edit summary was: removed quote that is too ambiguous for the lead section: it doesn't make a clear statement about the subject, doesn't adequately summarize the cited source, and, e.g., some problem solving may occur not by design but by trial and error, so it may not be true that the boundaries of design are equivalent to the boundaries of problems as the quote could be interpreted. Please discuss if you disagree. Biogeographist ( talk) 22:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
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I believe this page is a mess, and it needs a top level view to suceed. For now, it would be useful to separate the "See Also" links into some categories. Matt Whyndham 13:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is worse than a mess! It just gets worse. It is not a reliable entry. Yes, I know the response is 'well, be our guest', but it really needs most of what's there to be deleted and someone to start it all over again - and I expect there would be lots of complaints and reverts if someone does so. Nigel Cross 18:29, 4 February 2007 (UTC)
This section was both unfounded and incorrect. I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.158.1.32 ( talk) 21:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I've removed some things from the article.
First, I'm trying to expand the philosophical part of the article, and this definition, unfortunately, does not expand to cover all senses of design now discussed in the article:
Second, I'm removing this, because I don't understand why architecture needs special treatment, above and beyond that given to, say, industrial design. Hopefully someone will restore the relevant parts.
Here are some thoughts that I would like to refine and somehow incorperate into the article: In the realm of the arts, design is more relevent to the applied' arts, such as graphic arts, architechture, product design, ... Design implies a concious effort to create something that is both functional and aesthetically pleasing. For example a graphic artist may design an advertisement poster. This person's job is to communicate the advertisement message (functional aspect) and to make it look good (astetically pleasing). The distinction between pure and applied arts is not completely clear, but we could take Jackson Pollock's splatter paintings as an example of pure art. Sure his art may convey some message, but there are obvious differences between the kind of concrete information in a poster and the message of a Jackson Pollock. Second, I think that a reasonable person would agree that Pollock worked more intuitively than the graphic artist's concious effort to design the poster. This is not to say that Pollock did not have some sort of a priori idea of what he was going to paint before he started (I have no idea whether he did or not). I guess my point is that on the spectrum between pure and applied art, degree of design is the the most important factor. User:Ike9898
One more comment, on a slightly different vein...one might say that anything that a person makes is designed. To an extent I guess this is true. Things can be well designed or poorly designed. But i would say that something produced with out significant conscious effort is not truely designed. At the moment I am having trouble thinking of uncontroversial examples, so he's a controversial one.... Assuming you agree with mainstream evolutionary therory (as I do) living creatures are not designed, their bodies are the way they are as the result of a natural, unconcious process (evolution). (Please, I realize that not everyone agrees with evolution, let's not discuss that here). User:Ike9898
sounds like design to me. change and adaptation is true, never was in question, but many species require that all their organs and nerves be in a certain place and in certain order and "design." In that it is incorrect to say it is undesigned, especially sense no matter what changes have evolved, the blueprint and function remains the same. You will not see penguins over time evolve into flying birds. Just won't happen. So you could say in the natural world there is an implied design, but an even more uncomfortable topic many wish not to acknowledge due to the controversy, a designer. The second part of the statement is what keeps this observable fact surpressed until a cause can be found for a universe magically being created through natural causes, doesn't fly in the realm of true science and not psuedo or theroretical "science." To avoid an edit war on this article, avoid making any reference to Design Theory because both sides are wrong, equally biased and ignorant, and just stick with what we know, not what we speculate. Science and Religion have never been at odds. It is the starting theological points of that are at odds, not the validity of claims and observations.
Why has this article got a disambiguation notice? Above (in this talk) there are some fantastic ideas for an article. If I take off the {{disambig}} notice, is it ok to leave the really long "See also" section, which is useful for readers? Any thoughts are welcome.-- Commander Keane 17:00, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I wonder, too. Surely Design can stand alone as a topic? The 'article' is a mess as it stands. I'm not so sure about the fantastic-ness of the comments, though. The article should avoid straying into art versus design, and into 'intentional design' (creationism). I think there could be a perfectly straightforward article on Design, and the beginnings are there. Nigel Cross 18:26, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
I have revised and rearranged the original bits and pieces of content in order to try to begin a coherent article. It could use more work. I really don't understand what the intention(s) of the author(s) were behind the 'Basic Categories' contents - I don't understand them. Unless anyone can explain, I suggest that they get deleted. Nigel Cross 15:44, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
==Basic categories==
Defining water and its forms=Design
This discussion about trying to define Design is very good to read. from all the the words from Designers, i would like to discuss in layers. Oceans, Sea's,Rivers,Lakes,ponds,Dam waters, tap waters, tank waters and what not? so many names. And names depending upon the states of water, liquid, rain, moisture, dew, ice etc., we try to capture(existing things) and relate it to something (humans). The properties of water are, it takes the shape and form of the container, it takes the color of the container too. That is what i think we are trying to do here, trying to define Design. The Oceans, sea's ... are based on the context. The state rain,moisture... are things with some purpose(function) for the context. From the discussion there is a vague understanding that Desing is transient (thats how it is used individually). The scale and Bandwidth or spectrum is huge and wide respectively. Depending upon intra personal, interpersonal and societal perception, words do not stand the same. So is Design. so can we say defining Design = defining Water ? will it stand similar?
Some suggested references for the definition of design:
The definition given is overly wordy, muddled in terminology and vague in its conclusion. The need to appeal to a veriety of attributes of related processes which surround the design phase of any porject during the course of bringing it to fruition reveals the weakness of the statement as a definition. My experience comes from over 40 years in aircraft, defence and commercial engineering in design, planning, manufacturing and quality. However I want to respect the ideals and values of the Wiki encylcopedia. I also need to appologize for not being able to strongly reference what I am about to say but I would claim that the following is very widely known accross the engineering profession.
There are three distinct phases to the execution or creation of a design.
1. The Design phase is where the specification is written, it is no more or less than the creation of piece of signal information, (even if it only ever resides in the mind of its creator). This also includes any material specification.
2. The Planning phase is where such questions as where, when, how many, what tooling is required, what is the quality standard, source of material, batch size, etc are answered.
3. The Make phase where such issues as training, qualifications, cost collection, OH&S, workshop procedures, machine availability and alternatives etc are considered.
Vh mby ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 12:42, 27 July 2009 (UTC).
This relates to the definition as well as the history of Design: The word is related to the Italian Disegno, meaning "drawing", which is the painter's preparation for a painting. Also useful: A "design", especially in literature, is used for a plot or scheme that a character is planning. I think these sources of the word help define it, even if the article itself is more strictly geared to the engineering-type contexts of the word. --
Realedr (
talk) 13:08, 1 June 2011 (UTC)
I have no problem with a broad spectrum of examples however the fundamental meaning should not be clouded in such a way as to confuse that meaning.. the discipline is irrelevant for instance considering the following.. in the article..
"Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed."
So to not to exclude the biosphere I would also propose DNA meets the criteria for a design specification of a living organism. Vh mby ( talk) 13:17, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
What about the history of design? In some ways, design is not a very old profession; the separation of designer and maker only happened in the past 200 years. Industry gave room for a person who could outline a prototype or even just design an object on paper and have a factory produce and assemble it. Unknown user 04:04, 27 November 2006
Reagarding the history of design: Wasn't the entire field called "industrial design" until about 1960? Every time I go to this article I find it as confusing and all-inclusive as a beer-fueled all-night college bull session. Please get to the point!~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.225.197.81 ( talk) 05:52, 28 January 2013 (UTC)
The latest edit of the opening section was a major change. I've read it several times, and it's not obvious to me why certain words were deleted and included. Here was the version before the edit:
Design, usually considered in the context of the applied arts, engineering, architecture, and other such creative endeavours, is a homonym, used as both a noun and a verb. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of originating and developing a plan for a new object (machine, building, product, etc.). As a noun, "design" is used both for the final plan or proposal (a drawing, model, or other description), or the result of implementing that plan or proposal (the object produced).
Designing normally requires considering aesthetic, functional, and many other aspects of an object, which usually requires considerable research, thought, modeling, interactive adjustment, and re-design.
Design as a process can take many forms depending on the object being designed and the individual or individuals participating.
In philosophy, the abstract noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose/purposefulness (or teleology). Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity.
and after 23:33, 28 November 2006 Markwiki:
Design is the manipulation of elements to create a functional and/or pleasing product. It is a homonym, used as both a verb and a noun. "Design" as a verb refers to the process of planning. As a noun, "design" is used for the final plan or final product. The process of designing often includes research and modeling.
The word is most often used in relation to concrete products, such as in the applied arts, engineering, and architecture. In designing concrete items, seven elements are commonly recognized. These are form, mass, shape, line, color, texture and pattern.
In abstract applications, such as philosophy and theology, the noun "design" refers to pattern, or to purpose. Design is thus contrasted with purposelessness, randomness, or lack of complexity. The philosophical study of abstract design is teleology.
Is it just me, or is there a lot of odd changes here?
1) The word "manipulation" often implies a controversial adjustment. A design can be an arrangement as well as an adjustment.
2) I don't see why the examples in the parenthesis were removed. The sentence may have been a little long, but it could have been divided into multiples sentences rather than stripped of the examples.
3) The word "aesthetics" was removed, a simpler word that could include the seven elements.
4) The seven elements seem to be too specific to graphic design, which excludes the other forms and disciplines of design.
5) Functional design is relevant, but was deleted. It isn't clear if or where function is included in the seven elements.
6) Design seems irrelevant to theology unless you are talking about intelligent design, which is a theory, not a known discipline of design.
Oicumayberight 09:49, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've reverted the last two edits including the reference to the teleological argument. There seems to be an association with Intelligent Design, which has no place in this article. This is an article about what is known regarding the various disciplines of design. Oicumayberight 00:19, 30 November 2006 (UTC) open to evary downlod — Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.203.157.108 ( talk) 15:45, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
Why all the definitions etc from Dino Dini 'in a talk at Liverpool University'? It isn't anything new or especially helpful - many people have said similar things before, with more authority. Or am I missing something? Somebody could rewrite it more objectively? Nigel Cross 17:17, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
There is a whole field of design research! I am very disappointed by this design entry (in agreement with Nigel Cross). The answer to his request("be my guest...") is too easy, it is also the responsibility of an author of an entry to look for high quality sources and thorough historical background, or isn't it ?
I moved design process and design philosophy to this page. Oicumayberight 23:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
I find it odd to restict Design philosophy to Software engineering only. This should be a very general article IMHO. Patrick L. Goes 12:00, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Oicumayberight: I see you just made a change saying that "engineering is a form of design". I also see that the discussion under the heading "Design versus engineering" includes what appears to be (IMO) a misinterpretation of the two definitions supplied immediately above it. That discussion says that The most significant distinction (is) the application of "scientific and mathematical principles". However, the full definition of Engineering just supplied is The application of scientific and mathematical principles to practical ends such as the design, manufacture, and operation of efficient and economical structures, machines, processes, and systems.
So another important distinction is being ignored altogether, namely that Engineering is a much broader term, which includes Design as just one component of the definition. The two terms are not equivalent, because Design does not include Engineering. And while one might (speaking very loosely) say that design was a form of engineering, I believe it would be much more accurate to say that design is an aspect of engineering. And one certainly cannot say that engineering is a form of design, because design does not cover the manufacturing and operations aspects of engineering that are included in the definition supplied.
I view this as the general case of the discussion we're having elsewhere about Software Development and Software Design, in which the latter is a subset of the former. And I don't agree with the caption you just (re)wrote, because it is inconsistent with my understanding of the terms, and with their definitions as supplied in the article itself. Regards, Chris Loosley 02:00, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
The Commercial Character Design link under the design disciplines is probably not unique enough to be listed as its own discipline. I'm afraid if we allow that, some will want to list "Greeting Card Design" and every other rare application of communication design. Anyone else with an opinion on this? Oicumayberight 03:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section on "Design Pollution" from the terminology section. It has little to do with terminology. Pollution is not a common term to describe bad design. The section also lacked WP:NPOV by implying that bad design is rarely if ever the fault of the designer. Oicumayberight 19:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Can we start a discussion here about the icons rather than edit-warring? Please follow WP:TALK and WP:CIVIL while doing so. -- Ronz ( talk) 15:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I find the icons somewhat confusing, and maybe unnecessary. I honestly couldn't tell what some of the icons represented, either literally or symbolically. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.38.223.243 ( talk) 01:25, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
(de-indent) If this method of "visual learning" is so effective, then why is this the only article on Wikipedia that uses some of these icons? There is a huge difference between using an icon image in something like {{
algebra-stub}}
(found at the bottom of tagged stub pages) and as an inline image to decorate the section headers. How is a generic square root symbol illustrative of "Design and Engineering"? It's just gratuituous, and it doesn't have support from any editors here. —
Andrwsc (
talk ·
contribs) 23:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
This article has more than one problem. It's not sourced well enough to be making the claims it does, in my opinion. It's not very well structured to give any sort of basic understanding to design. Considering its role as a sort of crossroads leading out into all the various branches of design that may be, it does a bad job at being the tying knot. If people don't mind, I'll go ahead and be bold when possible. Necz0r ( talk) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
I am willing and (having just finished my PhD dissertation on Design Science) hopefully qualified to put a lot of work into improving this page. I started by reworking the introduction. I tried to integrate some of the existing text where it fit, but ended up replacing a lot of it. Please leave comments here. I'll give it a week or two, and if no one objects, I will rework another section or two. I think that the major topics that this page should address are: 1) design philosophy, 2) design science, 3) the design process, 4) design methods and method engineering, 5) differences between design in different disciplines, 6) the relationship between design and ethics. Some of these are already here, the others I propose to add. Thoughts anyone? Paulralph ( talk) 19:19, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
As nobody has objected, I'm going to update the second section to reflect diverse views on the steps designers engage in. If anyone has any suggestions or objections, please discuss here. It may take a few days for me to put together the content. Paul Ralph (Lancaster University) ( talk) 23:30, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
I have reworked the second section (design as a process) to better reflect diverse views on the activities designers engage in. Existing text is partially preserved in the subsection about typical stages associated with the Rational Model. I've referenced the content as much as possible, focusing on well-respected books and peer-reviewed journal and conference papers. I have also begun migrating to a citation/bibliography split format, which makes more sense when you refer to the same papers multiple times. If this is acceptable, I will continue the migration soon. Please check my work for typos, bias and other mistakes. If you feel that this is not a good update, please discuss improvements here rather than reverting. Paul Ralph (Lancaster University) ( talk) 17:19, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Half of this article is written by one person--presumably Dino himself--on what Dino Dini thinks design is. Unless somebody can show the notability of this person in the field of design and how this doesn't constitute original research I'm pretty much going to remove that entire section. Wentomowameadow ( talk) 13:56, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to open a space to specifically discuss philosophy and design. At the moment the article includes a welcome attempt to describe issues in this area but it leaves a lot to be desired.
In attempting to improve this area I would suggest making a clear distinction between design philosophies (working theories, ideas, attitudes etc that guide the work of practicing designers), and the Philosophy of Design (contesting theories about the nature of design produced by recognised theorists, philosophers, academics etc.). Of course in reality there might be some blurring or fluidity between these distinctions, but nevertheless I think it is helpful recognise that the philosophical study of design is not the same thing as the working conceptual schema of everyday design practice. A useful comparison might also be that of the theories and philosophies embodied in art movements vs theories and philosophies of aesthetics.
Applying these distinctions to what is currently represented in the article, it is not unfair to say that the current content is muddled, speculative, and fails to represent much of what has been published on these topics. The attempts to actually try to give design a philosophical definition in this article are appalling and uncalled for. What is needed is an overview of what key authors/groups have said regarding design, and an account of dominant areas of philosophical debate within the (very young) field. Ideally an additional article on the philosophy of design would be useful to link to. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kirrmy ( talk • contribs) 02:12, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be any discussion of operational design—the relatively new process used by the US military (and others) as a competing process for solving a problem (in simplistic terms). I don't see it as a design discipline at the bottom of the article either. There's been a few dozen books and articles written on this though. Have any other editors here heard of this? -- Airborne84 ( talk) 00:41, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
The beginning of this section seems a bit too formal and too cautious. It is not necessary to "posit" anything about the model. The model doesn't exist independently - you won't discover later that you were wrong. Since the model is itself a concept created by a person, it has whatever characteristics designers most often associate with that model. So, you can just move directly to describing it (as the rest of the section does very well). Blcklbl ( talk) 22:48, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
Seems like there could be a (sub-)section on design and the scientific method - specifically the conceptual processes in research design and design of experiments. Perhaps under terminology?-- A12n ( talk) 20:47, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Experience optimization (contextually - IT domain) can be defined as a symbiotic process between design (Interaction which is outcome research and analysis, editorial, Visual) and technology (implementation process) that work towards achieving the short term and long term business intent. [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumaramanikandan ( talk • contribs) 05:32, 6 February 2013 (UTC)
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I removed the latest addition to the definition in the lede of the article. There ae some good points here that need to be addressed [1]. The lede should have a concise definition, while the article body should expand upon the definition and address related issues. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:52, 20 April 2015 (UTC)
Karl Ulrich of the University of Pennsylvandia defines design as: "Conceiving and giving form to artifacts that solve problems." [2]
Ulrich draws upon the definitions proposed by Edgar Kaufmann Jr. and Klaus Krippendorf. Kaufman, while curator of the industrial design department at the Museum of Modern Art (MOMA) 1946–1948, defined design as: “Conceiving and giving form to objects used in everyday life” [3]
Klaus Krippendorf and Reinhart Butter defined design as: "The conscious creation of forms to serve human needs.” [4]
Another definition for design is a roadmap or a strategic approach for someone to achieve a unique expectation. It defines the specifications, plans, parameters, costs, activities, processes and how and what to do within legal, political, social, environmental, safety and economic constraints in achieving that objective. [5]
Here, a "specification" can be manifested as either a plan or a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed.
stub for process Lycurgus ( talk) 23:28, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Conceptual design — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.211.110.194 ( talk) 11:47, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
Well, my edit has been reverted by Freshacconci. He not only left no comments but also marked his edit as "Minor edit". He anyway violated the rule: "A check to the minor edit box signifies that only superficial differences exist... Examples include typographical corrections, formatting and presentational changes, and rearrangements of text without modification of its content. A minor edit is one that the editor believes requires no review and could never be the subject of a dispute". It is clear that both my edit and Freshacconci's edit were not minor at all. So I want to get answer why my edit was reverted and why Freshacconci is violating rules. Евгений Мирошниченко ( talk) 18:19, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
As this talk page is a bit of a dog's breakfast, I think it's important to start this discussion once again. The last attempt was a few years ago. An edit war yesterday necessitates opening this discussion. Design as a topic is, if not a core article, at least important enough to warrant work towards a stable version. Right now it occasionally attracts editors who feel their personal definition is the proper one and set out to change the lead paragraph, usually without consideration of manual of style issues or general guidelines regarding the lede, as happened yesterday. So with this, I will start the discussion. Please read the guidelines on article lead paragraphs and remember that this is an article about design as a whole, not a subset of design. freshacconci (✉) 15:45, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
The recent (November 2019) addition of a set of images of neoclassical furnishings gives a dramatic new impression to the whole Design article. I don't find them appropriate or useful additions to the article. They are collectively captioned as 'Various examples of design sketches' but they lack variety and are misleading as to what a design sketch is. They lack variety because they are limited solely to furniture or furnishings, and representing work of one particular historical period or style. They are misleading because they depict finished drawings of design proposals rather than the tentative conceptualisations normally associated with a design sketch. They (perhaps) belong elsewhere as illustrations of neoclassical style in interior design. Here, they convey a very restricted interpretation of 'Design' (the article topic) and do not relate to any of the other content of the article and therefore do not 'illustrate' anything in the article. The editor who inserted the images, 'Neoclassicism Enthusiast', may be well intentioned, and is obviously enthusiastic about neoclassicism, but the images are a misplaced intrusion into this particular article. I suggest that they are inappropriate and should be removed. Designergene ( talk) 16:52, 4 January 2020 (UTC)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Deſign. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. 1234qwer1234qwer4 ( talk) 23:01, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
I think the article is well reviewed, have strong elements and good sources. I think it would be a good idea to maybe add some photos just to make it more interesting. It helped me improved my article because it gave me ideas on how to edit mine. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KVB2020UPRC ( talk • contribs) 12:40, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
graphic design — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.177.172.132 ( talk) 09:40, 30 January 2021 (UTC)
I was reading this article http://purposeandperspective.co/hand-crafted/ while editing the Wikipedia article on the subject, and it reminded me of a concept I'd seen alluded to in other articles but never understood: intentional design. I was thinking of creating a separate Wikipedia article on intentional design and started gathering references and concepts /info/en/?search=User:Greg_Dahlen/intentional_design?venotify=created#Intentional_design. But I would like to know if the current article on Design, the subject of this talk page, already covers it? It would have to be under a different term than "intentional design," since that term isn't in the article. I'm not facile enough yet with these concepts of design approach to say if intentional design is already covered in the Design article and hence I don't need to create a new, separate article.
When it comes to intentional design, I'm thinking generally in terms of product design. Greg Dahlen ( talk) 17:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The ‘Types’ section now seems out of date and confused. ‘Art’, ‘Engineering’ and ‘Production’ are not ‘types’ of design. ‘Process design’ is already linked in the list of ‘Design disciplines’ as are Engineering design and Production design and Applied arts, etc. So the ‘Types’ section seems to be un-necessary. It seems to be a kind of limited set of statements of ‘compare and contrast’ design with art, engineering, etc. Why? The opening sentence refers to ‘various fields’ rather than ‘types’, and the section below lists ‘Design disciplines’, which are particular types of design fields or application areas. The whole section is confused and composed of loose generalisations or opinions. It doesn’t add to understanding of Design, which is now sufficiently well-established on its own to not need to try to explain how it is different from art, engineering, etc. I would like to propose that it is no longer fit for purpose and should be deleted. Designergene ( talk) 10:15, 22 August 2022 (UTC)
say about it 175.100.10.3 ( talk) 16:19, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
I reverted the addition of a Charles Eames quote to the lead. My edit summary was: removed quote that is too ambiguous for the lead section: it doesn't make a clear statement about the subject, doesn't adequately summarize the cited source, and, e.g., some problem solving may occur not by design but by trial and error, so it may not be true that the boundaries of design are equivalent to the boundaries of problems as the quote could be interpreted. Please discuss if you disagree. Biogeographist ( talk) 22:24, 2 March 2024 (UTC)