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Before reading this article, I had taken issue with the article on Carl Schmitt for stating that he was a "conservative" theorist, when it's pretty obvious that he was a fascist as per both his membership in the Nazi party and explicit advocation of the suspension of the rule of law and establishment of a state of exception, effectively a rule by decree, in the form of a dictatorship in Dictatorship, as I was considering the term, "conservative", within the context of contemporary political debate and not as per both its historical use and use within the field of history, in which case, I think it's adequately descriptive of Schmitt to characterize him as such. Effectively, I'd thought that the term was either euphemistic or pejorative because of that I was thinking about as per its contemporary use.
Anyways, because of that, I was thinking that this article could use some sort of disclaimer on historical usages of the term and its use within the field of history as distinct from what is generally connotative of conservatism within a contemporary political context. For instance, when you hear someone described as a "conservative" in the news, you would be likely to assume that they have some opposition to proposed social reforms and advocate a right-wing economic policy, but, also, that they are still in favor of some form of representative democracy, whereas its use in, say, a historical textbook, though it would still generally connote an opposition to social reforms, may not necessarily favor contemporary conservative economic policy, and may even advocate for, say, absolute monarchy, at least, in a case where the status quo in question is an absolute monarch.
Basically, I think that there being multiple usages of the term in different contexts could be either confusing or even misleading, and think that some clarification could be given in this regard. When I see the term, "conservative", in a news article, I assume that the person whom it is ascribed to is right-wing, but not of the far-right, for instance, whereas they very well may be, as per my example of Carl Schmitt, within a historical text.
In short, I think a brief disclaimer distinguishing the contemporary political usage of "conservatism", i.e. right-wing both socially and fiscally within a political spectrum limited to representative democracies, and both the historical usage of the term and its use within the field of history as, to put it rather crudely, the maintenance of status quo, regardless as to what that status quo may be, with the simplest counter-point to the contemporary political usage of the term being absolute monarchy. No one, when they hear a newscaster say that someone is a conservative, assumes that they could be in favor of something like the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire, when it is entirely possible that they could be in a work of history. To me, there seems to be a clear difference between how the term is used in those contexts, which could use some clarification. Daydreamdays2 ( talk) 20:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
"Great Britain had no instinct and no productive power that emancipated it from the customs of its forefathers. Every appeal against oppression was to the hereditary rights; the only protection which the Englishman knew was in the traditional laws of his country. By means of this perpetual recurrence to old principles, and of the gradual contrivance of new forms in which to secure their action, the English people conquered their freedom."
Dimadick, you have some microstates in your list, though not Monaco. You have left out Jersey, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. Gibraltar is technically a British colony, thanks to the reversion clause in the Treaty of Utrecht, but for practical purposes it is an independent constitutional monarchy. Moonraker ( talk) 04:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, instead of basing the definition of the topic on writings by individuals who self-identify as conservatives or of non-conservatives presenting their personal interpretations, we should per Wikipedia:TERTIARY first determine which definitions are most common and present them according to acceptance in the literature.
One good source is Mark Garnett's article "Conservatism" in the political science textbook Ideology (OUP 2017). [1] Dr. Garnett explains how many self-described conservatives are writing about forms of right-wing liberalism or populism. I don't think the focus of the article should be on views that have little academic acceptance.
If you have other tertiary sources, I would appreciate them. TFD ( talk) 13:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The socialist page has one, the liberal page has one, even the nationalist one has one.
I grant you that i have no sources, but i would be dammed and death if i were told in all my years of being politically concious, that conservatism has no critisms 181.1.137.59 ( talk) 20:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
First, I would like to thank you, Trakking, for actually reading my edits, and only reverting the first three of them. Your grammar edits were to the point, and appreciated.
I hope someone will restore my edits. I don't want to get involved in an edit war, and will move on, citing different sources.
Next, you say that the article does not advocate White Power or Christianity anywhere. Your statement is correct. My sources say that many conservatives do advocate White Power and Christianity. If they do, that is an important aspect of conservatism that the article does not mention but should.
You suggest that the idea that a large number of conservatives advocate White Power and Christianity is "nonsensical". I think I can provide a large number of examples to the contrary. Tell me how many you want.
You say "Do you know that Afro-Americans were the most Christian group in the nation in the 60s?" I wouldn't be surprised. But Afro-Americans in the 60's were not conservative, so I don't know what that has to do with this discussion. And, as The Four Deuces points out, your comments about Africa being both strongly religious and conservatives basically agrees with what my sources said one of the three posts of mine that you deleted.
In reverting three of my posts, you say "two of the three scholars referenced are extremely obscure and not authoritative, one of the sources (The Guardian) is heavily ideologized and unreliable plus cited incorrectly" The scholars you call "extremely obscure and not authoritative" are referenced in Wikipedia and published in major journals. In your opinion, is there any scholar who thinks conservatism is racist, sexist, and anti-science who is not "extremely obscure and not authoritative"? If so, tell me who, and I will cite them instead of the ones I cited. If, on the other hand, you take it as an axiom that everyone who is not conservative is "extremely obscure and not authoritative", we have nothing further to discuss.
As I said, I hope someone restores the three paragraphs you deleted on the grounds that the authors of the quotes are "extremely obscure and not authoritative", because they find them essentially correct and well-referenced. If that doesn't happen, I'll move on.
Let me mention that I, Trakking, and The Four Deuces are major Wikipedia editors, with hundreds if not thousands of edits that have stood the test of time. We three hold very different views of conservatism. The article current reflects only one of those views, Trakking's view, which is (correct me if I'm wrong) that conservatives are religious but the article should not say so, and that Blacks were conservative in the 60's because they were religious even though conservatives in the 60's would not allow Black people to vote. Rick Norwood ( talk) 02:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Trakking ( talk) 10:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)”Naturally the ochlocratic and egalitarian principle also demands female suffrage, but certain leftist groups had their doubts and scruples about the application of their dogmas. This is mainly true of the Latin countries where women, with the exception of a small, but extremely rabid minority, profess strong conservative and religious views, and therefore the principle of universal suffrage was quietly dropped in countries like republican France, Spain, and Portugal.” [The Menace of the Herd (1943), p. 58]
I just noticed that Trakking also deleted my Confucius quote. Is Confucius "extremely obscure and not authoritative"? Rick Norwood ( talk) 02:23, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
181.1.137.59 posted that the article "has no criticism of conservatism".
I suggested that "As it stands, especially if one only reads the beginning and end of the article, it states essentially that conservatism is right and liberalism is wrong."
I posted a few referenced quotations.
Trakking deleted most of them.
It seems best to take them one at a time.
Here is my first post, under "Themes", now deleted.
"A less positive view of conservatism is expressed by scholars Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway, who wrote in Dædalus in 2022: "Empirical data do not support the conclusion of a crisis of public trust in science. They do support the conclusion of a crisis of conservative trust in science: polls show that American attitudes toward science are highly polarized along political lines." [1]"
Comments? Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Naomi Oreskes is full professor at Harvard, with more than 900 papers published in refereed journals, but she is an American, so you conclude she only knows about American contemporary politics. And, she is not a conservative, so she doesn't understand that distrust in science is related to a believe in limited government. In short, you agree that conservatives distrust science but you don't trust Americans. Erik M. Conway has a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota, works for Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and is the author of several books, including one titled High-Speed Dreams (2005), in which he argues that "U.S. government sponsorship of supersonic commercial transportation systems resulted from Cold War concerns about a loss of technological prowess in the modern world." But he is also an American, and therefore cannot be trusted to have learned about anything except what the American government wants him to know. Further, he does not mention that the reason conservatives distrust science is that conservatives distrust government.
The statement that I am trying to balance, just above the post you deleted, is by Quintin Hogg. His claim, which remains in the article is: "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." His views of free society and a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself you find reliable, because he is a conservative politician, and President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He is British, and therefore not under the thrall of the American government.
In short, you say that there is in conservative thought "a growing distrust in science and the belief in limited government." but don't think Americans scientists know as much about science as British politicians with no training in science.
So, in order for this article to state what you agree is true, I need to find someone who says that who is not an American. Ok. I can do that. Rick Norwood ( talk) 18:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Of course, it is no surprise that you quickly reverted my post, even though you agree with what the post says. You claim that an expert on the history of science is not reliable and does not carry any weight. But that was my previous post, not the post you just now reverted. The post you reverted was credited to an Australian scientist, not an American. But you said of that the Australian scientist "it is only representative of parts of the Anglosphere [the US and Australia] and not the whole planet" But isn't your own source, a conservative British politician, also "only representative of parts of the Anglosphere ... not the whole planet"?
So, I will quote a British scientist, and see if you revert that quote while keeping the quote by a British politician. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok, how about what The Guardian says. I've cited a source that contradicts your claim that The Guardian is not trusted, and provided two examples, one new, of how the Tories are not helping. IF you delete it, I will provide more examples.
As for your points:
1. You object that my posts are only the Anglosphere, and are fine that the post my sources disagree with is only the Anglosphere. 2. You point out that your quote is famous. It is also wrong. Being famous (among conservatives) doesn't make wrong right. 3. Skepticism toward vaccines and some aspects of climate change have already killed millions of people and are killing more ever day. Killing millions of people is not "minor". 4. I do not say, and The Guardian does not say, that all conservatives are anti-vaccine. Clearly, many are anti-vaccine, and it is a major cause in conservatism world-wide. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok, it is clear that no matter what I post you will revert it. Now, I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. That will be your third and last revert. Then we'll let the Wikipedia referees sort it out.
I wish we could have actually exchanged ideas, but since you again assert that The Guardian, the most trusted newspaper in Great Britain, is not a reliable source, there's no point in trying to have a discussion. Rick Norwood ( talk) 00:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Response to The Four Deuces: Thank you for actually responding to the points I am trying to raise instead of falling back on insults, false statements (repeated claims that The Guardian is unreliable), and deletion.
I have to go to work soon, but I would like to respond To what seems to be your main point, and to Trakking's repeated claims. You say "It's not that the authors are Americans, it's that they are writing about American conservatism which most experts do not consider to be a form of conservatism." But essentially all of the sources cited in the statements I've disagreed, essentially all of the articles cited sources, are American or British sources. How can you object to me citing American and British (and Australian) sources when you almost exclusively cite American or British sources in the sections of the article I've tried to edit. If you rule out American and British sources for my claims, you should also rule out American and British sources for your claims.
Trakking says: "We must consider the issue from a global and historical perspective, not a narrow American contemporary one." Please name one author who you think considers conservatism from a global and historical perspective. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
References
TFD: It is really good to have someone rational to talk to.
You quote Ian Adams. "Ideologically, all US parties are liberal and always have been." When did Adams write this, before or after the conservative denial of Covid and global warming? Before or after Donald Trump?
But, let that be for the time being. I agree that this article should distinguish between American conservatism and "real" conservatism, even though American conservatism, Turmp conservatism, is by far the most influential in the world today, and while Trakking calls denial of global warming and Covid "trivial", my guess is that you do not agree, and would say denial of global warming and Covid are not conservative, and that Trump is not conservative.
This is the main point I want to discuss now: You say, "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I agree. The article, as it stands, says right up front that "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." I disagree that conservatism supports a "free society" and have tried to post a few sources who say that conservatism does not support a free society but supports a society which the upper class rules. These attempts have been deleted, on the grounds that The Guardian is unreliable and that American sources are unreliable.
I have voted for both liberals and for conservatives. But I agree with you that "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I think this section needs a second quote, from some neutral source, that does not agree that conservatism supports a "free society", but rather states that conservatism supports a society ruled by the upper class. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I agree, but given that almost every change I've tried to make has been deleted, I want to move cautiously. Today I plan to add one carefully referenced paragraph including a quote, and we'll see what happens. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
First, I need to make it clear that my "I agree" above should have been "I agree with TFD". The intermediate comment, by Dimadick, refers to a common rationalization: attribute all negative comments to human nature, and all positive comments to reason. I'm afraid that doesn't work in this case, since most conservatives are or say they are followers of Burke. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Conservatism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This page is not a forum for general discussion about Conservatism. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Conservatism at the Reference desk. |
This
level-3 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is written in American English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, defense, traveled) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |
Before reading this article, I had taken issue with the article on Carl Schmitt for stating that he was a "conservative" theorist, when it's pretty obvious that he was a fascist as per both his membership in the Nazi party and explicit advocation of the suspension of the rule of law and establishment of a state of exception, effectively a rule by decree, in the form of a dictatorship in Dictatorship, as I was considering the term, "conservative", within the context of contemporary political debate and not as per both its historical use and use within the field of history, in which case, I think it's adequately descriptive of Schmitt to characterize him as such. Effectively, I'd thought that the term was either euphemistic or pejorative because of that I was thinking about as per its contemporary use.
Anyways, because of that, I was thinking that this article could use some sort of disclaimer on historical usages of the term and its use within the field of history as distinct from what is generally connotative of conservatism within a contemporary political context. For instance, when you hear someone described as a "conservative" in the news, you would be likely to assume that they have some opposition to proposed social reforms and advocate a right-wing economic policy, but, also, that they are still in favor of some form of representative democracy, whereas its use in, say, a historical textbook, though it would still generally connote an opposition to social reforms, may not necessarily favor contemporary conservative economic policy, and may even advocate for, say, absolute monarchy, at least, in a case where the status quo in question is an absolute monarch.
Basically, I think that there being multiple usages of the term in different contexts could be either confusing or even misleading, and think that some clarification could be given in this regard. When I see the term, "conservative", in a news article, I assume that the person whom it is ascribed to is right-wing, but not of the far-right, for instance, whereas they very well may be, as per my example of Carl Schmitt, within a historical text.
In short, I think a brief disclaimer distinguishing the contemporary political usage of "conservatism", i.e. right-wing both socially and fiscally within a political spectrum limited to representative democracies, and both the historical usage of the term and its use within the field of history as, to put it rather crudely, the maintenance of status quo, regardless as to what that status quo may be, with the simplest counter-point to the contemporary political usage of the term being absolute monarchy. No one, when they hear a newscaster say that someone is a conservative, assumes that they could be in favor of something like the restoration of the Holy Roman Empire, when it is entirely possible that they could be in a work of history. To me, there seems to be a clear difference between how the term is used in those contexts, which could use some clarification. Daydreamdays2 ( talk) 20:31, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
"Great Britain had no instinct and no productive power that emancipated it from the customs of its forefathers. Every appeal against oppression was to the hereditary rights; the only protection which the Englishman knew was in the traditional laws of his country. By means of this perpetual recurrence to old principles, and of the gradual contrivance of new forms in which to secure their action, the English people conquered their freedom."
Dimadick, you have some microstates in your list, though not Monaco. You have left out Jersey, the Bailiwick of Guernsey, and the Isle of Man. Gibraltar is technically a British colony, thanks to the reversion clause in the Treaty of Utrecht, but for practical purposes it is an independent constitutional monarchy. Moonraker ( talk) 04:07, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
As I mentioned above, instead of basing the definition of the topic on writings by individuals who self-identify as conservatives or of non-conservatives presenting their personal interpretations, we should per Wikipedia:TERTIARY first determine which definitions are most common and present them according to acceptance in the literature.
One good source is Mark Garnett's article "Conservatism" in the political science textbook Ideology (OUP 2017). [1] Dr. Garnett explains how many self-described conservatives are writing about forms of right-wing liberalism or populism. I don't think the focus of the article should be on views that have little academic acceptance.
If you have other tertiary sources, I would appreciate them. TFD ( talk) 13:05, 6 January 2024 (UTC)
The socialist page has one, the liberal page has one, even the nationalist one has one.
I grant you that i have no sources, but i would be dammed and death if i were told in all my years of being politically concious, that conservatism has no critisms 181.1.137.59 ( talk) 20:40, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
First, I would like to thank you, Trakking, for actually reading my edits, and only reverting the first three of them. Your grammar edits were to the point, and appreciated.
I hope someone will restore my edits. I don't want to get involved in an edit war, and will move on, citing different sources.
Next, you say that the article does not advocate White Power or Christianity anywhere. Your statement is correct. My sources say that many conservatives do advocate White Power and Christianity. If they do, that is an important aspect of conservatism that the article does not mention but should.
You suggest that the idea that a large number of conservatives advocate White Power and Christianity is "nonsensical". I think I can provide a large number of examples to the contrary. Tell me how many you want.
You say "Do you know that Afro-Americans were the most Christian group in the nation in the 60s?" I wouldn't be surprised. But Afro-Americans in the 60's were not conservative, so I don't know what that has to do with this discussion. And, as The Four Deuces points out, your comments about Africa being both strongly religious and conservatives basically agrees with what my sources said one of the three posts of mine that you deleted.
In reverting three of my posts, you say "two of the three scholars referenced are extremely obscure and not authoritative, one of the sources (The Guardian) is heavily ideologized and unreliable plus cited incorrectly" The scholars you call "extremely obscure and not authoritative" are referenced in Wikipedia and published in major journals. In your opinion, is there any scholar who thinks conservatism is racist, sexist, and anti-science who is not "extremely obscure and not authoritative"? If so, tell me who, and I will cite them instead of the ones I cited. If, on the other hand, you take it as an axiom that everyone who is not conservative is "extremely obscure and not authoritative", we have nothing further to discuss.
As I said, I hope someone restores the three paragraphs you deleted on the grounds that the authors of the quotes are "extremely obscure and not authoritative", because they find them essentially correct and well-referenced. If that doesn't happen, I'll move on.
Let me mention that I, Trakking, and The Four Deuces are major Wikipedia editors, with hundreds if not thousands of edits that have stood the test of time. We three hold very different views of conservatism. The article current reflects only one of those views, Trakking's view, which is (correct me if I'm wrong) that conservatives are religious but the article should not say so, and that Blacks were conservative in the 60's because they were religious even though conservatives in the 60's would not allow Black people to vote. Rick Norwood ( talk) 02:10, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Trakking ( talk) 10:25, 8 February 2024 (UTC)”Naturally the ochlocratic and egalitarian principle also demands female suffrage, but certain leftist groups had their doubts and scruples about the application of their dogmas. This is mainly true of the Latin countries where women, with the exception of a small, but extremely rabid minority, profess strong conservative and religious views, and therefore the principle of universal suffrage was quietly dropped in countries like republican France, Spain, and Portugal.” [The Menace of the Herd (1943), p. 58]
I just noticed that Trakking also deleted my Confucius quote. Is Confucius "extremely obscure and not authoritative"? Rick Norwood ( talk) 02:23, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
181.1.137.59 posted that the article "has no criticism of conservatism".
I suggested that "As it stands, especially if one only reads the beginning and end of the article, it states essentially that conservatism is right and liberalism is wrong."
I posted a few referenced quotations.
Trakking deleted most of them.
It seems best to take them one at a time.
Here is my first post, under "Themes", now deleted.
"A less positive view of conservatism is expressed by scholars Naomi Oreskes and Erik M. Conway, who wrote in Dædalus in 2022: "Empirical data do not support the conclusion of a crisis of public trust in science. They do support the conclusion of a crisis of conservative trust in science: polls show that American attitudes toward science are highly polarized along political lines." [1]"
Comments? Rick Norwood ( talk) 12:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Naomi Oreskes is full professor at Harvard, with more than 900 papers published in refereed journals, but she is an American, so you conclude she only knows about American contemporary politics. And, she is not a conservative, so she doesn't understand that distrust in science is related to a believe in limited government. In short, you agree that conservatives distrust science but you don't trust Americans. Erik M. Conway has a Ph.D. from the University of Minnesota, works for Jet Propulsion Laboratory, and is the author of several books, including one titled High-Speed Dreams (2005), in which he argues that "U.S. government sponsorship of supersonic commercial transportation systems resulted from Cold War concerns about a loss of technological prowess in the modern world." But he is also an American, and therefore cannot be trusted to have learned about anything except what the American government wants him to know. Further, he does not mention that the reason conservatives distrust science is that conservatives distrust government.
The statement that I am trying to balance, just above the post you deleted, is by Quintin Hogg. His claim, which remains in the article is: "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." His views of free society and a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself you find reliable, because he is a conservative politician, and President of the Oxford University Conservative Association. He is British, and therefore not under the thrall of the American government.
In short, you say that there is in conservative thought "a growing distrust in science and the belief in limited government." but don't think Americans scientists know as much about science as British politicians with no training in science.
So, in order for this article to state what you agree is true, I need to find someone who says that who is not an American. Ok. I can do that. Rick Norwood ( talk) 18:58, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Of course, it is no surprise that you quickly reverted my post, even though you agree with what the post says. You claim that an expert on the history of science is not reliable and does not carry any weight. But that was my previous post, not the post you just now reverted. The post you reverted was credited to an Australian scientist, not an American. But you said of that the Australian scientist "it is only representative of parts of the Anglosphere [the US and Australia] and not the whole planet" But isn't your own source, a conservative British politician, also "only representative of parts of the Anglosphere ... not the whole planet"?
So, I will quote a British scientist, and see if you revert that quote while keeping the quote by a British politician. Rick Norwood ( talk) 20:43, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok, how about what The Guardian says. I've cited a source that contradicts your claim that The Guardian is not trusted, and provided two examples, one new, of how the Tories are not helping. IF you delete it, I will provide more examples.
As for your points:
1. You object that my posts are only the Anglosphere, and are fine that the post my sources disagree with is only the Anglosphere. 2. You point out that your quote is famous. It is also wrong. Being famous (among conservatives) doesn't make wrong right. 3. Skepticism toward vaccines and some aspects of climate change have already killed millions of people and are killing more ever day. Killing millions of people is not "minor". 4. I do not say, and The Guardian does not say, that all conservatives are anti-vaccine. Clearly, many are anti-vaccine, and it is a major cause in conservatism world-wide. Rick Norwood ( talk) 21:36, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Ok, it is clear that no matter what I post you will revert it. Now, I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. I'll put it back up. You'll revert it again. That will be your third and last revert. Then we'll let the Wikipedia referees sort it out.
I wish we could have actually exchanged ideas, but since you again assert that The Guardian, the most trusted newspaper in Great Britain, is not a reliable source, there's no point in trying to have a discussion. Rick Norwood ( talk) 00:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Response to The Four Deuces: Thank you for actually responding to the points I am trying to raise instead of falling back on insults, false statements (repeated claims that The Guardian is unreliable), and deletion.
I have to go to work soon, but I would like to respond To what seems to be your main point, and to Trakking's repeated claims. You say "It's not that the authors are Americans, it's that they are writing about American conservatism which most experts do not consider to be a form of conservatism." But essentially all of the sources cited in the statements I've disagreed, essentially all of the articles cited sources, are American or British sources. How can you object to me citing American and British (and Australian) sources when you almost exclusively cite American or British sources in the sections of the article I've tried to edit. If you rule out American and British sources for my claims, you should also rule out American and British sources for your claims.
Trakking says: "We must consider the issue from a global and historical perspective, not a narrow American contemporary one." Please name one author who you think considers conservatism from a global and historical perspective. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:44, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
References
TFD: It is really good to have someone rational to talk to.
You quote Ian Adams. "Ideologically, all US parties are liberal and always have been." When did Adams write this, before or after the conservative denial of Covid and global warming? Before or after Donald Trump?
But, let that be for the time being. I agree that this article should distinguish between American conservatism and "real" conservatism, even though American conservatism, Turmp conservatism, is by far the most influential in the world today, and while Trakking calls denial of global warming and Covid "trivial", my guess is that you do not agree, and would say denial of global warming and Covid are not conservative, and that Trump is not conservative.
This is the main point I want to discuss now: You say, "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I agree. The article, as it stands, says right up front that "Conservatism is not so much a philosophy as an attitude, a constant force, performing a timeless function in the development of a free society, and corresponding to a deep and permanent requirement of human nature itself." I disagree that conservatism supports a "free society" and have tried to post a few sources who say that conservatism does not support a free society but supports a society which the upper class rules. These attempts have been deleted, on the grounds that The Guardian is unreliable and that American sources are unreliable.
I have voted for both liberals and for conservatives. But I agree with you that "to explain opinions is not to endorse them". I think this section needs a second quote, from some neutral source, that does not agree that conservatism supports a "free society", but rather states that conservatism supports a society ruled by the upper class. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:55, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I agree, but given that almost every change I've tried to make has been deleted, I want to move cautiously. Today I plan to add one carefully referenced paragraph including a quote, and we'll see what happens. Rick Norwood ( talk) 11:24, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
First, I need to make it clear that my "I agree" above should have been "I agree with TFD". The intermediate comment, by Dimadick, refers to a common rationalization: attribute all negative comments to human nature, and all positive comments to reason. I'm afraid that doesn't work in this case, since most conservatives are or say they are followers of Burke. Rick Norwood ( talk) 22:32, 11 February 2024 (UTC)