This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Commodity fetishism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives: 1 |
|
Ok article, but why is Mary DOuglas' World of Goods in the bibliography? It makes no mention of fetishism or even of Marx.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.114.127 ( talk) 18:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kmcolgan.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the embellishment of this article has much improved it over the last half decade.
But where to begin? Some particular claims and phrases are obviously doted on by jealous eds, leading me to feeling a general sense of 'am I bovverred?'. But if I had to start back on this, somewhere, I'd urge all parties to consider whether above-the-fold summaries should rely on terms like reification. C'mon, folks, write for the audience, not your intellectual rivals. A 14 year old should be able to make it to the contents table without feeling an overwhelming urge to retreat to Bieber. What should follow from there is a gradual introduction of the subtleties and controversies surrounding the concept, arranged according to some kind of plausible framework or context, to render the information into an intelligible narrative. Adhib ( talk) 21:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
It's amazing how little to no attention my previous post (confusion over commodity fetishism) has received. I've been teaching Capital One for over 15 years and let me just say that as interesting and insightful this topic is, it has been massively misinterpreted and misunderstood by all sorts of scholars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.182 ( talk) 05:18, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
If you people posing as "authorities" want to wreck the article some more, go ahead. It's just that if you do, I am not going to waste time working on it again. Having studied and taught these things for 30 years, I would agree that this topic has been "massively misinterpreted and misunderstood". The first (but not the only) reason is that people simply do not read Marx's own text at all, and that is why, in my contributions, I referred to a few texts deliberately. The second reason is that they cannot actually understand Marx own text. I think though the reader is entitled to know where Marx got his idea of fetishism from originally, and how his specific use of the term evolved in the course of his studies. However, I would also agree that the concept of commodity fetishism can be understood ("read") in different ways, including ways which go far beyond Marx's own understanding. All you can do about that in the article, is to distinguish fairly between Marx's own idea and various subsequent interpretations. But if Marx is not even allowed to speak for himself, because "authorities" claim to know better than Marx himself what his idea was, and want to silence Marx himself, we simply don't get very far with that project at all. The discussion is not helped either, by fascistic scholars arrogantly and haughtily telling us to do our homework, when in fact there is no evidence for their own scholarship, none. What we need is constructive suggestions about how to improve the article, not Marxists masturbating their inflated ego's. As far as "authority" is concerned, a few days ago, the research director of the IISH here in Amsterdam (where many of Marx's original manuscripts are stored) took me out to dinner and, among other things, presented me with a copy of the first volume of Riazanov's Marx-Engels Archiv (the journal of the Marx-Engels Institute). It raised a smile, but anyhow I don't think he would have done that, if he thought I willfully tried to misrepresent the ideas of Marx and Engels! We might well argue that Riazanov committed scholarly errors as well, or that his work is in several respects outdated/superseded, but his dedication to Marx-Engels scholarship is wellknown. I am saddened by the narcissism, arrogance and flatulence displayed on this page. If you have a constructive suggestion to make about how to improve an article about this undoubtedly controversial topic, please do. But if you just want to have a status-wank, do it somewhere else, please! User:Jurriaan 12 September 2011 19:47 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.64.48.162 ( talk)
Here are the four points he makes (in his own words!):
Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself. (1) The equality of all sorts of human labour is expressed objectively by their products all being equally values; (2) the measure of the expenditure of labour power by the duration of that expenditure, takes the form of the quantity of value of the products of labour; and (3) finally the mutual relations of the producers, within which the social character of their labour affirms itself, take the form of a social relation between the products. (4) The sum total of the labour of all these private individuals forms the aggregate labour of society. Since the producers do not come into social contact with each other until they exchange their products, the specific social character of each producer’s labour does not show itself except in the act of exchange. In other words, the labour of the individual asserts itself as a part of the labour of society, only by means of the relations which the act of exchange establishes directly between the products, and indirectly, through them, between the producers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.5.140 ( talk) 05:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
What is there to interpret? Let Marx speak for himself. You have taken ONE single point from his section on commodity fetishism and paraded it as his sole definition and meaning of commodity fetishism. Why then does Marx spend so much time discussing use-values and exchange-values (i.e. socially necessary labour time imbued in the commodity)? No one on wikipedia seems to care or they think they're "interpreting" a primary source...how absurd this all sounds! Marx is very clear in his writing and the points he makes. You have totally left out or failed to mention 1) different use-values being exchanged, 2) different amounts of socially necessary labor time or abstract labour being equated....ugh what's the point, no serious Marxist scholar here so I think I am wasting my time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.5.140 ( talk) 04:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Jurrian: your constant soapboxing and original research amounts to a continuous campaign of disruption of the article process. Consider this a formal warning that future article disruption on articles related to Marx and his work will be treated as attacks on the encyclopaedia. I have warned your current IP and your user account. You are more than welcome to contribute content, and make cogent arguments regarding content for the purpose of improving the encyclopaedia, within the policies and processes of the encyclopaedia. This would mean relying on secondary sources. Fifelfoo ( talk) 08:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
There is no question that this is an important article, far more important than Justin Bieber! My point was that Wikipedia works best when many people work to improve an article, and it is unfortunate that this article has not attracted a critical mass of well-informed editors. In the meantime, we all have to strive to avoide WP:NOR and to comply with WP:NPOV by organizing the article around the different major veiws of this concept, from reliable secondary sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Jurriaan, I just do not see "the rub." Can you point to one major source that we cannot agree on as reliable following our policies? Stop mentioning the vague thousands of publications. Please tell me which ones fail to meet our guidelines?
I honestly do not understand by your question "but what specific criteria should be applied?" I have mentioned the specific criteria, I have provided links to some of the key policies and have named other policies and guidelines. Please tell me why you are still confused about which criteria? Or do you simply refuse to read our policies? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I took the time today to look over Jurrian's changes (per the issue raised at a noticeboard, and while I'd say that the work is both good faith and productive, there are some issues with the result. There's a tendency to slip off into wordy discussion and explanations that feel like synthesis (e.g., interpreting the concept, rather than discussing it). I'm going to work through it today and see if a good, vigorous copy editing can work out the kinks. -- Ludwigs2 14:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think the new Theory section adds anything useful - it is vague, barely comprehensible and abstract. Obviously the work of somebody who thinks himself an expert theoretician but who isn't. But I will tell you what, you guys go ahead and destroy a good, clear and informative text, go an replace it with a terrible waffly International Socialists type text. I will take my talents elsewhere. I cannot spend all my time fighting against wiki-bullshit User:Jurriaan 15 Nov 2011 11:17 (UTC)
I for one am looking forward to seeing what materializes out of this discussion. I did not mean to offend anyone, especially you Slrubenstein by emphasizing the need to let Marx speak for himself instead of always relying on his interpreters, as Andrew Kliman argues and yes I understand WK policy regarding this issue. Yes McLellan and Harvey are 'authoritative' sources, however, that does not make their own personal interpretation a good one. Harvey makes several mistakes, for example, in his 'Companion to Marx's Capital' but this is immaterial.Best of luck and happy new year.
I never carefully selected or cherry picked any quotes from Marx and put them together in some sort of crafty way in order to support my own interpretation. The passage I quoted from Marx, is indeed what Marx himself makes clear in his own (ordered) words: "Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself..." Unfortunately, the text is all there and I've already made my point but for someone who is not familiar with Marx's writings or has not read enough of his work, it is all too difficult of a task for me to try and convince you of the multi-layered argument that commodity fetishism holds (i.e. 'this form itself' -- use-values and exchange-values imbued in the commodity). Thank you for the suggestion however I have already published a few articles and in my PhD dissertation argued this before. You have your articles on wikipedia to edit and I have my classes on Classical Marxism to teach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 06:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
hi there, can i aske for clarification of what Jurriaan wants to add? it seems like a matter of emphasis - whether the source of commodity fetishism is given. is that right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.174.43 ( talk) 14:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
There are many associated dangers in making one too many assumptions. Classical Marxism is simply the title of the course I teach on volume one of Capital. As much as I'm amused by your outlandish responses, I do not suffer fools gladly. It's a shame that someone with so much knowledge, rather than publishing any significant work or anything at all has to prove himself on the talk page of a wikipedia article. Don't waste your time with a reply, it's better spent on something worth it like finishing that PhD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 11:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Why has a chunk of the preceding discussion been deleted from this talk page? user:Jurriaan 31 May 2012 3:52 (UTC)
With the edits of Mhazard9, which are presumably intended to impose a standard (his standard), the article's readibility has declined and a lot of statements have become barely comprehensible crap. User:Jurriaan 8 June 2012 1:38 (UTC)
Mhazard9 ( talk) 10:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Just one other point, Judith: Jimbo Wales, the founder of wikipedia, professes to be a follower of Aynd Rand, and that's extreme individualism. Wales merely says, that he doesn't consider that extreme individualism is incompatible with sharing, in particular sharing information (as the scum-editors like Mhazard9 have now taken over, and wrecked the article, I am not going to waste anymore time on this). User:Jurriaan 7 July 2012 22:21 (UTC)
It would be useful to agree a structure for the article. How about this. First main section: CF as outlined in Capital, including its place in Marx's political economy. Second: evolution of Marx's idea of fetishism, including the ideas Marx drew on and the ways he used the term in his writings pre Capital. Third: CF as it has been used in Marxism. Fourth: use by non-Marxist writers. What do people think? Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Dear Judith:
The editorial purpose is the lucidly consistent presentation of the Commodity Fetishism subject matter, so that the article says what it means and means what it says, by means of a cohesive narrative of Iteration, Explanation, and Reiteration, because this is a didactic enterprise.
I agree with your suggestions about the structure of the article; hence, I respectfully ask that you be consistent when you change the layout; either delete all of the bullets, in the Cultural Theory and in the Intellectual Property sub-sections, or not. I think they should remain, because they are brief, discrete paragraphs meant to communicate thematically related facts pertinent to the subject. Otherwise, you are playing “ 'cause I say so” games . . . because . . . you forgot to delete the Baudrillard bullet, and you mis-corrected the theoretic “du spectacle”, in English it also is a two-word usage. If you disbelieve me, please READ aloud the title of the theory and the title of the book, and you shall HEAR that it is what I wrote, and not because I say so.
I am all for co-operation, but, please practice what you preach to me; and do not deceive yourself, theoretic is an English word. If you dislike it, I can respect that, but bullshit (that which is neither true nor untrue) is impolite editorial politics. Respect and be respected.
Yours,
Mhazard9 ( talk) 14:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
In the criticism section, a change was recently made by MHazard, altering the sentence, "thus, if the market did not exist, it would have been impossible for the masses to have access to cultural objects" to a version that read "Therefore, if the market for commodities did not exist, it would have been impossible for the mass of society to have access to the gppds and services of the culture industry." I restored this to the previous version -- while I don't have the Cowan text in front of me, I think it pretty unlikely that a (not very theoretical) neoliberal economist would be drawing on Frankfurt School terminology; to use this terminology in representing his view would give a skewed picture, given the value judgments and other baggage associated with the term "culture industry." I don't see that there's any need to use this inflated term in this context -- unless I'm wrong, that is: does Cowan use the term? Sindinero ( talk) 06:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC) Does it matter? Cowan is worthless either way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.89.153 ( talk) 02:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Is there a version of this article for idiots? I haven't read Marx, or economics, and if I wanted to, I'd get the original books.
Aren't encyclopaedias meant to give laymen a working idea of a topic? This article reads like an essay for some politics class. Many other articles do a good job of explaining complex topics to people who are idly curious, I think this needs a re-write. Cite your sources, don't paste them in wholesale! 92.40.254.66 ( talk) 15:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Marx doesn't use the language of "reification" ("Verdinglichung") to describe commodity fetishism. If this is the case, then I suggest we remove references to reification from the lead and the explanation of commodity fetishism. Reification is known primarily through the work of Lukacs (History and Class Consciousness), who was himself building on Marx's theory of commodity fetishism. Thus it's not only anachronistic but unnecessarily circuitous to rely on "reification" to explain Marxian commodity fetishism, as much as the two concepts have in common. It's also unnecessarily jargony and not the most helpful thing for readers who may have no background in Marxist theory. For unpacking and explaining the concept, let's stick to Marx's terms; we can elaborate on reification in the section that actually discusses Lukacs's contribution to Marx's theory. Sound about right? Sindinero ( talk) 15:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Each new clause of the opening sentence has a new, ambiguous subject; first, "commodity fetishism is a transformation" which gets "derived;" then, "trading of commodities" is the way in which social relationships get objectified; and then those "relationships" are what is among money and commodities and buyers and sellers. Or perhaps it says something completely different; it's hard to tell. The subject is constantly moving, and reading the sentence is like trying to keep your eye on a fast-moving subterranian gopher.
If someone knows what this sentence is trying to say, I'd suggest breaking it up into two or three smaller sentences, and using nouns instead of tacked-on clauses (e.g. replace "whereby" with a noun). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjaywork ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
What I originally wrote was: "In Marx's critique of political economy, commodity fetishism denotes the mystification of human relations said to arise out of the growth of market trade, when social relationships between people are expressed as, mediated by and transformed into, objectified relationships between things (commodities and money)." It was slightly clumsy to put it that way, but okay. Next, the wiki-shit dumb-down morons did a bit of "creative" editing and now it just becomes blabber-jabber gibberish. User:Jurriaan 21 March 2013 20:50 (UTC)
"Hence, in a capitalist society, social relations between people—who makes what, who works for whom, the production-time for a commodity, et cetera—are perceived as economic relations among objects, that is, how valuable a given commodity is when compared to another commodity."
Perhaps someone could polish up the definition of social relations here. Is it similar to or different from the concept of the relations of production? Along with economic relations, it seems to be a pretty important concept and worth elaborating on and so an item significant enough to call for 'et cetera' is probably important enough to be named.
Economic relations among objects still doesn't make sense even if we think of it in terms of commodity X's value vis a vis commodity Y's value. Value refers to what exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to include a section discussing why commodity fetishism does not exist in other modes of production (e.g., feudalism). I can't find any sources at hand but I think a historical comparative analysis would be a good way to shed light more light on this concept and furthermore explain why or how exactly it is peculiar to capitalist society. Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
As I see it, there are two issues.
1) The separation of the product from the producer. 2) The assignment of mystical magical properties to a product.
1. Separation of the product from the producer is evident even in the wild kingdom. As soon as one predator preforms the difficult task of killing a large animal, the large dead animal is now 'a kill'. A smart, fleet, dangerous animal, has been converted into a heap of ready to eat meat. All sorts of other predators now compete to eat the kill. The antelope has been converted into meat.
Separation of the product from the producer reaches it's absurd maximum in the case of the Beatles no longer owning their own songs. The right to sell a copy of "Hard Day's Night' is a long way from John, Paul, George and Ringo singing in a club.
2. A King's Crown. It is just a ring of metal. But it has been assigned an agreed upon value that it it's wearer is the King. "Many" would believe that the crown has magical powers to bestow who ever wears it with KingShip. Same with an Idol. And idol is just a carved block of wood or stone. But once it is carved, "many" would believe it is now contains the spirit of a god or is a god.
The iPhone is both a product that is separated from the capital, labor, marketing and design that produced it.
And it is a status symbol that imbues it's purchaser with 'cool'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.167.14.36 ( talk) 21:32, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I removed the comment and chart in the "Naturalisation of market behaviour" section. It seemed distracting and not relevant to or illustrative of the concept of Adam Smith et al, of the natural forces of the market, i.e., supply and demand etc., and was unreferenced. IamNotU ( talk) 21:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
"In the book In Praise of Commercial Culture (2000), the libertarian economist Tyler Cowen said that, despite the cultural tendency to fetishes and fetishism, the human fetishization of commodities (goods and services) is an instance of anthropomorphism (ascribing personal characteristics to animals and objects), and not a philosophic feature particular to the economics of capitalism or to the collective psychology of a capitalist society."
I read this book and I don't see any relevant passages about commodity fetishization. He lists potential reasons why some Marxists are cultural pessimists and makes the case that free markets make an "art-producing-friendly" environment but that appears to be it. The google search of the book name and "commodity fetishism" only links to this wikipedia page, and another page that links to this wikipedia page. Sentientfroot ( talk) 03:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Commodity fetishism article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
Archives: 1 |
|
Ok article, but why is Mary DOuglas' World of Goods in the bibliography? It makes no mention of fetishism or even of Marx.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.157.114.127 ( talk) 18:25, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 16 August 2021 and 17 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Kmcolgan.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 18:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure if the embellishment of this article has much improved it over the last half decade.
But where to begin? Some particular claims and phrases are obviously doted on by jealous eds, leading me to feeling a general sense of 'am I bovverred?'. But if I had to start back on this, somewhere, I'd urge all parties to consider whether above-the-fold summaries should rely on terms like reification. C'mon, folks, write for the audience, not your intellectual rivals. A 14 year old should be able to make it to the contents table without feeling an overwhelming urge to retreat to Bieber. What should follow from there is a gradual introduction of the subtleties and controversies surrounding the concept, arranged according to some kind of plausible framework or context, to render the information into an intelligible narrative. Adhib ( talk) 21:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
It's amazing how little to no attention my previous post (confusion over commodity fetishism) has received. I've been teaching Capital One for over 15 years and let me just say that as interesting and insightful this topic is, it has been massively misinterpreted and misunderstood by all sorts of scholars. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.182 ( talk) 05:18, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
If you people posing as "authorities" want to wreck the article some more, go ahead. It's just that if you do, I am not going to waste time working on it again. Having studied and taught these things for 30 years, I would agree that this topic has been "massively misinterpreted and misunderstood". The first (but not the only) reason is that people simply do not read Marx's own text at all, and that is why, in my contributions, I referred to a few texts deliberately. The second reason is that they cannot actually understand Marx own text. I think though the reader is entitled to know where Marx got his idea of fetishism from originally, and how his specific use of the term evolved in the course of his studies. However, I would also agree that the concept of commodity fetishism can be understood ("read") in different ways, including ways which go far beyond Marx's own understanding. All you can do about that in the article, is to distinguish fairly between Marx's own idea and various subsequent interpretations. But if Marx is not even allowed to speak for himself, because "authorities" claim to know better than Marx himself what his idea was, and want to silence Marx himself, we simply don't get very far with that project at all. The discussion is not helped either, by fascistic scholars arrogantly and haughtily telling us to do our homework, when in fact there is no evidence for their own scholarship, none. What we need is constructive suggestions about how to improve the article, not Marxists masturbating their inflated ego's. As far as "authority" is concerned, a few days ago, the research director of the IISH here in Amsterdam (where many of Marx's original manuscripts are stored) took me out to dinner and, among other things, presented me with a copy of the first volume of Riazanov's Marx-Engels Archiv (the journal of the Marx-Engels Institute). It raised a smile, but anyhow I don't think he would have done that, if he thought I willfully tried to misrepresent the ideas of Marx and Engels! We might well argue that Riazanov committed scholarly errors as well, or that his work is in several respects outdated/superseded, but his dedication to Marx-Engels scholarship is wellknown. I am saddened by the narcissism, arrogance and flatulence displayed on this page. If you have a constructive suggestion to make about how to improve an article about this undoubtedly controversial topic, please do. But if you just want to have a status-wank, do it somewhere else, please! User:Jurriaan 12 September 2011 19:47 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.64.48.162 ( talk)
Here are the four points he makes (in his own words!):
Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself. (1) The equality of all sorts of human labour is expressed objectively by their products all being equally values; (2) the measure of the expenditure of labour power by the duration of that expenditure, takes the form of the quantity of value of the products of labour; and (3) finally the mutual relations of the producers, within which the social character of their labour affirms itself, take the form of a social relation between the products. (4) The sum total of the labour of all these private individuals forms the aggregate labour of society. Since the producers do not come into social contact with each other until they exchange their products, the specific social character of each producer’s labour does not show itself except in the act of exchange. In other words, the labour of the individual asserts itself as a part of the labour of society, only by means of the relations which the act of exchange establishes directly between the products, and indirectly, through them, between the producers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.5.140 ( talk) 05:31, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
What is there to interpret? Let Marx speak for himself. You have taken ONE single point from his section on commodity fetishism and paraded it as his sole definition and meaning of commodity fetishism. Why then does Marx spend so much time discussing use-values and exchange-values (i.e. socially necessary labour time imbued in the commodity)? No one on wikipedia seems to care or they think they're "interpreting" a primary source...how absurd this all sounds! Marx is very clear in his writing and the points he makes. You have totally left out or failed to mention 1) different use-values being exchanged, 2) different amounts of socially necessary labor time or abstract labour being equated....ugh what's the point, no serious Marxist scholar here so I think I am wasting my time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.81.5.140 ( talk) 04:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
Jurrian: your constant soapboxing and original research amounts to a continuous campaign of disruption of the article process. Consider this a formal warning that future article disruption on articles related to Marx and his work will be treated as attacks on the encyclopaedia. I have warned your current IP and your user account. You are more than welcome to contribute content, and make cogent arguments regarding content for the purpose of improving the encyclopaedia, within the policies and processes of the encyclopaedia. This would mean relying on secondary sources. Fifelfoo ( talk) 08:45, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
There is no question that this is an important article, far more important than Justin Bieber! My point was that Wikipedia works best when many people work to improve an article, and it is unfortunate that this article has not attracted a critical mass of well-informed editors. In the meantime, we all have to strive to avoide WP:NOR and to comply with WP:NPOV by organizing the article around the different major veiws of this concept, from reliable secondary sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
Jurriaan, I just do not see "the rub." Can you point to one major source that we cannot agree on as reliable following our policies? Stop mentioning the vague thousands of publications. Please tell me which ones fail to meet our guidelines?
I honestly do not understand by your question "but what specific criteria should be applied?" I have mentioned the specific criteria, I have provided links to some of the key policies and have named other policies and guidelines. Please tell me why you are still confused about which criteria? Or do you simply refuse to read our policies? Slrubenstein | Talk 02:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
I took the time today to look over Jurrian's changes (per the issue raised at a noticeboard, and while I'd say that the work is both good faith and productive, there are some issues with the result. There's a tendency to slip off into wordy discussion and explanations that feel like synthesis (e.g., interpreting the concept, rather than discussing it). I'm going to work through it today and see if a good, vigorous copy editing can work out the kinks. -- Ludwigs2 14:14, 13 November 2011 (UTC)
I don't think the new Theory section adds anything useful - it is vague, barely comprehensible and abstract. Obviously the work of somebody who thinks himself an expert theoretician but who isn't. But I will tell you what, you guys go ahead and destroy a good, clear and informative text, go an replace it with a terrible waffly International Socialists type text. I will take my talents elsewhere. I cannot spend all my time fighting against wiki-bullshit User:Jurriaan 15 Nov 2011 11:17 (UTC)
I for one am looking forward to seeing what materializes out of this discussion. I did not mean to offend anyone, especially you Slrubenstein by emphasizing the need to let Marx speak for himself instead of always relying on his interpreters, as Andrew Kliman argues and yes I understand WK policy regarding this issue. Yes McLellan and Harvey are 'authoritative' sources, however, that does not make their own personal interpretation a good one. Harvey makes several mistakes, for example, in his 'Companion to Marx's Capital' but this is immaterial.Best of luck and happy new year.
I never carefully selected or cherry picked any quotes from Marx and put them together in some sort of crafty way in order to support my own interpretation. The passage I quoted from Marx, is indeed what Marx himself makes clear in his own (ordered) words: "Whence, then, arises the enigmatical character of the product of labour, so soon as it assumes the form of commodities? Clearly from this form itself..." Unfortunately, the text is all there and I've already made my point but for someone who is not familiar with Marx's writings or has not read enough of his work, it is all too difficult of a task for me to try and convince you of the multi-layered argument that commodity fetishism holds (i.e. 'this form itself' -- use-values and exchange-values imbued in the commodity). Thank you for the suggestion however I have already published a few articles and in my PhD dissertation argued this before. You have your articles on wikipedia to edit and I have my classes on Classical Marxism to teach. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 06:25, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
hi there, can i aske for clarification of what Jurriaan wants to add? it seems like a matter of emphasis - whether the source of commodity fetishism is given. is that right? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.174.43 ( talk) 14:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
There are many associated dangers in making one too many assumptions. Classical Marxism is simply the title of the course I teach on volume one of Capital. As much as I'm amused by your outlandish responses, I do not suffer fools gladly. It's a shame that someone with so much knowledge, rather than publishing any significant work or anything at all has to prove himself on the talk page of a wikipedia article. Don't waste your time with a reply, it's better spent on something worth it like finishing that PhD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 11:45, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Why has a chunk of the preceding discussion been deleted from this talk page? user:Jurriaan 31 May 2012 3:52 (UTC)
With the edits of Mhazard9, which are presumably intended to impose a standard (his standard), the article's readibility has declined and a lot of statements have become barely comprehensible crap. User:Jurriaan 8 June 2012 1:38 (UTC)
Mhazard9 ( talk) 10:56, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Just one other point, Judith: Jimbo Wales, the founder of wikipedia, professes to be a follower of Aynd Rand, and that's extreme individualism. Wales merely says, that he doesn't consider that extreme individualism is incompatible with sharing, in particular sharing information (as the scum-editors like Mhazard9 have now taken over, and wrecked the article, I am not going to waste anymore time on this). User:Jurriaan 7 July 2012 22:21 (UTC)
It would be useful to agree a structure for the article. How about this. First main section: CF as outlined in Capital, including its place in Marx's political economy. Second: evolution of Marx's idea of fetishism, including the ideas Marx drew on and the ways he used the term in his writings pre Capital. Third: CF as it has been used in Marxism. Fourth: use by non-Marxist writers. What do people think? Itsmejudith ( talk) 10:49, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Dear Judith:
The editorial purpose is the lucidly consistent presentation of the Commodity Fetishism subject matter, so that the article says what it means and means what it says, by means of a cohesive narrative of Iteration, Explanation, and Reiteration, because this is a didactic enterprise.
I agree with your suggestions about the structure of the article; hence, I respectfully ask that you be consistent when you change the layout; either delete all of the bullets, in the Cultural Theory and in the Intellectual Property sub-sections, or not. I think they should remain, because they are brief, discrete paragraphs meant to communicate thematically related facts pertinent to the subject. Otherwise, you are playing “ 'cause I say so” games . . . because . . . you forgot to delete the Baudrillard bullet, and you mis-corrected the theoretic “du spectacle”, in English it also is a two-word usage. If you disbelieve me, please READ aloud the title of the theory and the title of the book, and you shall HEAR that it is what I wrote, and not because I say so.
I am all for co-operation, but, please practice what you preach to me; and do not deceive yourself, theoretic is an English word. If you dislike it, I can respect that, but bullshit (that which is neither true nor untrue) is impolite editorial politics. Respect and be respected.
Yours,
Mhazard9 ( talk) 14:44, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
In the criticism section, a change was recently made by MHazard, altering the sentence, "thus, if the market did not exist, it would have been impossible for the masses to have access to cultural objects" to a version that read "Therefore, if the market for commodities did not exist, it would have been impossible for the mass of society to have access to the gppds and services of the culture industry." I restored this to the previous version -- while I don't have the Cowan text in front of me, I think it pretty unlikely that a (not very theoretical) neoliberal economist would be drawing on Frankfurt School terminology; to use this terminology in representing his view would give a skewed picture, given the value judgments and other baggage associated with the term "culture industry." I don't see that there's any need to use this inflated term in this context -- unless I'm wrong, that is: does Cowan use the term? Sindinero ( talk) 06:40, 16 June 2012 (UTC) Does it matter? Cowan is worthless either way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.89.153 ( talk) 02:57, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Is there a version of this article for idiots? I haven't read Marx, or economics, and if I wanted to, I'd get the original books.
Aren't encyclopaedias meant to give laymen a working idea of a topic? This article reads like an essay for some politics class. Many other articles do a good job of explaining complex topics to people who are idly curious, I think this needs a re-write. Cite your sources, don't paste them in wholesale! 92.40.254.66 ( talk) 15:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Marx doesn't use the language of "reification" ("Verdinglichung") to describe commodity fetishism. If this is the case, then I suggest we remove references to reification from the lead and the explanation of commodity fetishism. Reification is known primarily through the work of Lukacs (History and Class Consciousness), who was himself building on Marx's theory of commodity fetishism. Thus it's not only anachronistic but unnecessarily circuitous to rely on "reification" to explain Marxian commodity fetishism, as much as the two concepts have in common. It's also unnecessarily jargony and not the most helpful thing for readers who may have no background in Marxist theory. For unpacking and explaining the concept, let's stick to Marx's terms; we can elaborate on reification in the section that actually discusses Lukacs's contribution to Marx's theory. Sound about right? Sindinero ( talk) 15:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
Each new clause of the opening sentence has a new, ambiguous subject; first, "commodity fetishism is a transformation" which gets "derived;" then, "trading of commodities" is the way in which social relationships get objectified; and then those "relationships" are what is among money and commodities and buyers and sellers. Or perhaps it says something completely different; it's hard to tell. The subject is constantly moving, and reading the sentence is like trying to keep your eye on a fast-moving subterranian gopher.
If someone knows what this sentence is trying to say, I'd suggest breaking it up into two or three smaller sentences, and using nouns instead of tacked-on clauses (e.g. replace "whereby" with a noun). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cjaywork ( talk • contribs) 17:40, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
What I originally wrote was: "In Marx's critique of political economy, commodity fetishism denotes the mystification of human relations said to arise out of the growth of market trade, when social relationships between people are expressed as, mediated by and transformed into, objectified relationships between things (commodities and money)." It was slightly clumsy to put it that way, but okay. Next, the wiki-shit dumb-down morons did a bit of "creative" editing and now it just becomes blabber-jabber gibberish. User:Jurriaan 21 March 2013 20:50 (UTC)
"Hence, in a capitalist society, social relations between people—who makes what, who works for whom, the production-time for a commodity, et cetera—are perceived as economic relations among objects, that is, how valuable a given commodity is when compared to another commodity."
Perhaps someone could polish up the definition of social relations here. Is it similar to or different from the concept of the relations of production? Along with economic relations, it seems to be a pretty important concept and worth elaborating on and so an item significant enough to call for 'et cetera' is probably important enough to be named.
Economic relations among objects still doesn't make sense even if we think of it in terms of commodity X's value vis a vis commodity Y's value. Value refers to what exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:22, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to include a section discussing why commodity fetishism does not exist in other modes of production (e.g., feudalism). I can't find any sources at hand but I think a historical comparative analysis would be a good way to shed light more light on this concept and furthermore explain why or how exactly it is peculiar to capitalist society. Just a thought. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.68.252 ( talk) 21:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
As I see it, there are two issues.
1) The separation of the product from the producer. 2) The assignment of mystical magical properties to a product.
1. Separation of the product from the producer is evident even in the wild kingdom. As soon as one predator preforms the difficult task of killing a large animal, the large dead animal is now 'a kill'. A smart, fleet, dangerous animal, has been converted into a heap of ready to eat meat. All sorts of other predators now compete to eat the kill. The antelope has been converted into meat.
Separation of the product from the producer reaches it's absurd maximum in the case of the Beatles no longer owning their own songs. The right to sell a copy of "Hard Day's Night' is a long way from John, Paul, George and Ringo singing in a club.
2. A King's Crown. It is just a ring of metal. But it has been assigned an agreed upon value that it it's wearer is the King. "Many" would believe that the crown has magical powers to bestow who ever wears it with KingShip. Same with an Idol. And idol is just a carved block of wood or stone. But once it is carved, "many" would believe it is now contains the spirit of a god or is a god.
The iPhone is both a product that is separated from the capital, labor, marketing and design that produced it.
And it is a status symbol that imbues it's purchaser with 'cool'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.167.14.36 ( talk) 21:32, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
I removed the comment and chart in the "Naturalisation of market behaviour" section. It seemed distracting and not relevant to or illustrative of the concept of Adam Smith et al, of the natural forces of the market, i.e., supply and demand etc., and was unreferenced. IamNotU ( talk) 21:27, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
"In the book In Praise of Commercial Culture (2000), the libertarian economist Tyler Cowen said that, despite the cultural tendency to fetishes and fetishism, the human fetishization of commodities (goods and services) is an instance of anthropomorphism (ascribing personal characteristics to animals and objects), and not a philosophic feature particular to the economics of capitalism or to the collective psychology of a capitalist society."
I read this book and I don't see any relevant passages about commodity fetishization. He lists potential reasons why some Marxists are cultural pessimists and makes the case that free markets make an "art-producing-friendly" environment but that appears to be it. The google search of the book name and "commodity fetishism" only links to this wikipedia page, and another page that links to this wikipedia page. Sentientfroot ( talk) 03:39, 16 May 2017 (UTC)