The contents of the Climate change alarmism page were merged into Media coverage of climate change and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
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I don't think User:BryantLee's (another sock?) changes were improvements William M. Connolley ( talk) 10:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
In my secret vault I kept this article. —Preceding undated comment added 00:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
I think a short, two paragraph section summarizing this article should be included in the Global warming controversy article. Cla68 ( talk) 06:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Can't find a really good source, but there is a counterpoint charge of "economic alarmism" levelled against those who claim that action to mitigate climate change will cause serious economic damage, contrary to the view of most economists who have studied the issue. JQ ( talk) 06:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Herman E. Daly, the former World Bank economist, has been writing for decades about the need for steady-state economics (what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn called a "zero growth economy") to replace what he called "growthmania" ( and Karl Marx labelled "money fetishism"). Given the worldwide predominance of capitalism and liberalism, it seems that few are willing to listen to his "voice in the wilderness" and, no doubt, would consider this to be "economic alarmism". However, is it so odd to point out (as Daly did) that "the Earth may be developing but it is not growing!"? This therefore potentially links to Wikipedia's pages on "Limits to growth" and "Tragedy of the commons" (et al). Mlack65 ( talk) 17:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Just a quick start, as it's late:
1) The definition of "Climate change alarmism -- which is truly baroque:
-- is apparently uncited. Besides being unintelligible. Cf. Climate change denial.
2)The followon amplification,
-- makes even less sense, and is cited to an opinion piece by Kerry Emanuel, who doesn't strike me as a disinterested scholar in this matter.
Anyway, the article starts off just as badly as does Climate change denial. In my view. It doesn't get better. What a mess. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand why 'The term "alarmist" is primarily used by those who reject the scientific consensus on climate change as an epithet for those who treat the issue objectively makes no sense. Nor is it obvious why it is POV [1] William M. Connolley ( talk) 09:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
*Kerry Emanuel citation [2] -- this article is the sole cite (at present) for our definition of CC alarmism in the lede. But the only mention of alarmism that I could find in Emanuel's article is:
Editor Guettarda seems to imply (above) that he wrote the lede by summarizing several sources(?), not all online. Do we have a WP:Synthesis problem? Or am I all wet? It would be best to quote any definitions we find as a footnote, I think. TIA, Pete Tillman ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
We have a new POV fork, Climate change exaggeration. It has a fair number of refs. Could we see what's worth merging is fairly short order and redirect the article? — kwami ( talk) 07:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I've restored SA's redirect to here. This is yet more disruption by MN. Didn't we have all this discussion before? William M. Connolley ( talk) 09:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
There is also a discussion page on the article proposed for merger. Collect ( talk) 11:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
The page is now at User:Marknutley/Climate change exaggeration if anyone wants to merge stuff from there. Whilst not a recreation of the deleted article, the March 2010 AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Climate change exaggeration seems to establish "alarmism" as the preferred term, and this article was created in June 2010. Global warming alarmism, by the by, has existed as a redirect since 2004. Rd232 talk 14:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Any sources supporting this addition? Guettarda ( talk) 04:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement to which sources are attached: Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming, global cooling
Neither of these statements support the statement to which the reference was attached. The only place the word "alarm" even shows up in the article is in the headline (which, as we all know, is rarely written by the author of newspaper articles). Guettarda ( talk) 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC) [Analysis of the second source to come, but I need to run to class. Guettarda ( talk) 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)]
I took it out. Its fairly obviously silly William M. Connolley ( talk) 14:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
The piece is entitled "Don't believe doomsayers that insist the world's end is nigh" and is listed in Lexis as "analysis". In addition to 'global cooling', the article speaks of the "population bomb" that wasn't, the ozone hole that went away, the acid rain problem that was "miraculously...averted". In other words, it's a testament to know-nothingism.
The content and tone of the article make it pretty clear that it does not meet our standards as a source for factual information. That aside, how does it support ''Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming, global cooling?
I cleaned this up a bit, in a few free minutes. We should probably add the use of "warmer"/ "warmist" as another commonly-used pejorative and/or epithet. I don't think finding RS's of such uses will be hard. I have little time now, but will return to this, especially the lede problems I mentioned above. Thanks to all who've commented and pitched in, and sorry for the confrontational tone there -- hazards of late-night posting. Best, Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Page 1326 presents several quotes from climate scientists referencing, in their opinion, the cooling alarmism of the 1970s. "Hysterical fears," "consensus panic", and "fashionable panic." Pages 1330-1331 also reference the perceived alarmism of the cooling 1970s such as Time magazine's "ominously worried." These are all synonyms for alarmism. This article is about the concept, not about the word. The other references used in this article also use synonyms for the alarmism related to cooling and warming. Cla68 ( talk) 23:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
From WP:SYNTH: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources
Global warming sceptics and others sometimes invoke the fact that media in the 1970s reported about the possibility of global cooling to suggest that the current discussions on global warming are of an alarmist nature.
This statement is supposedly supported by Kapitsa & Bashkirtsev from The Hindu, an opinion piece from the Irish Independent, Schmidt from the Jerusalem Post, Wilson from the Sunday Times, a quote from the National Post and Peterson, Connolley & Fleck. Working from the quotations supplied:
floor of the U.S. Senate where Inhofe (2003) followed up that quote by stating, “That was the same timeframe that the global-warming alarmists are concerned about global warming.” The actual report, however, shows that the original context, rather than supporting the global cooling myth, discusses the full state of the science at the time, as described earlier. The words not extracted by Schlesinger and Inhofe are highlighted with italics:...
Taking a look at the sentence in depth:
What would a source need to say in order to support this statement without imply[ing] a conclusion...that is not mentioned by [any] of the sources? It would need to address usage: Global warming sceptics and others sometimes invoke the fact is a statement about usage by certain people. If a source simply supplies an example of this sort of behaviour, it cannot be used to support the meta-commentary that "[various people] sometimes invoke the fact". Stitching together several examples of usage is a violation of WP:SYNTH. So what do the sources say?
None of the first five sources (Kapitsa & Bashkirtsev; the Irish Independent; Schmidt; Wilson; the National Post) say anything (in the quotes provided) about anyone "invok[ing] the fact..." While they could be taken as examples of people invoking "global cooling", using them to support statements about usage is classic WP:SYNTH. They are examples which, putatively, illustrate the behaviour that the sentence is addressing. None of them can be used to support a statement about usage. While the Peterson et al. article does say some things about usage, it does not say anything about this sort of usage.
There is, of course another major problem with this sentence - one of relevance. Even if the statement about usage were supported, it stands there, alone in the lead, without any context. It simply illustrates one of the many ways that certain groups have tried to discredit mainstream science. Guettarda ( talk) 02:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Um, thanks. But I really don't know what you mean by this. How are you suggesting that these be incorporated into the article? I think we all understand how to do Google searches. But what is the Edwards source? And unpublished ms? And the Lindzen article - is it published? Is it unpublished? Why is the Leo Gold blog a reliable source for this? What's the Leiserowitz article have to add that isn't already covered in the existing article of his that I did cite? Guettarda ( talk) 18:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I've added a quote from Lindzen from his paper on alarmism. Thanks to editor JN466 for bringing it to our attention.
I also added a footnote to the Schneider quote. This is because many readers will recall this famous quote, "So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have." -- which Schneider always maintained was pulled out of context (as indeed it was -- but still....). In any case, cognitive dissonance (for me) on reading the bit about Schneider opposing alarmism. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Is the AGU's revised (2007) statement to be considered as "alarmist" or not? As it is, this is unclear. However, (IMO) the AGU's intent is clear - they are not trying to alarm anybody - they just want people to take the problem of climate change seriously. Any comments? Mlack65 ( talk) 16:40, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Climate change: biological and human aspects By Jonathan Cowie, Cambridge University Press refers to brief fears of a new ice age threatening civilisation in the 1970s, but also adds that subsequent research and data showed that on balance, the factors investigated had a warming effect on the climate.
This book review by William Rusher chronicles a history of alarmist media reports about climate change, highlighting a paragraph in the reviewed book, "This isn't a question of science. It's a question of whether Americans can trust what the media tell them about science."
Lindzen argues, The public discourse on global warming has little in common with the standards of scientific discourse. Rather, it is part of political discourse where comments are made to secure the political base and frighten the opposition rather than to illuminate issues. In political discourse, information is to be “spun” to reinforce pre-existing beliefs, and to discourage opposition. The chief example of the latter is the perpetual claim of universal scientific agreement. This claim was part of the media treatment of global cooling (in the 1970’s) and has been part of the treatment of global warming since 1988 (well before most climate change institutes were created). The consensus preceded the research. That media discourse on climate change is political rather than scientific should, in fact, come as no surprise. However, even scientific literature and institutions have become politicized. Some scientists issue meaningless remarks in what I believe to be the full expectation that the media and the environmental movement will provide the ‘spin.’ Since the societal response to alarm has, so far, been to increase scientific funding, there has been little reason for scientists to complain.
Peterson, Connolley and Fleck demonstrate that there was no scientific consensus about global cooling in the 1970s, studies warning about global cooling being outnumbered by those that warned about global warming.
Summarising, it seems clear that the media have a long tradition of alarmist reporting about climate change, be it cooling or warming, generally claiming scientific consensus in their reporting, even where no such scientific consensus exists. They do so whether the message is cooling or warming. It is equally clear that the scientific consensus that has developed over the past 30 years (as described in the scientific literature, rather than claimed in the media) does support the notion that the climate is warming, and it is clear that at least some scientists that support the scientific consensus have been accused of buying into and fuelling the alarmist approach of the media.
Would editors more knowledgeable than me agree that that is a fair characterisation of the situation? -- JN 466 11:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged this section as it does not seem to follow from the rest of the article. First we learn about 'Alarmism as a pejorative', although that section seems badly cited. Then the article tells us about 'Alarmism as an extreme position', but that 11% of the US population takes this position - half as many again as the US skeptics. We are told that 'Media coverage' understandably leans towards searching out such extreme and pejorative views in their coverage. Finally we get to what sounds like the sensible conclusion, 'Views of scientists', but then we are presented with nothing but vociferous criticism of 'alarmism', and that from only five individual spokesmen (Stephen Schneider, Mike Hulme, Hans von Storch, Richard Lindzen, and William Gray). Do these five represent the whole of science? Looking again at the title, 'Views of scientists', this is hopeless - this isn't the 'Findings of the scientific community' or the 'Scientific view', but is set out to be a representative survey of every individual 'scientist' in the world! (An impossible task). The title needs changing and then a representative section needs writing, giving the considered view of the worldwide scientific community on the degree of alarm that is to be considered appropriate under the known circumstances. -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I have added an introductory paragraph to this section in an attempt to mitigate the problems described above. I have based it mostly on the paper by Hansen et al (2008) Target Atmospheric CO2: Where Should Humanity Aim?. This covers enough of the ground to give a context for what follows, and is fairly middle-of-the-road in terms of mainstream published science. It may have been better to use the IPCC summaries and projections, but they seem to be upsetting people who claim they are 'too political' in other discussions, so I chose to go straight from a mainstream published paper. Further suggestions welcome. -- Nigelj ( talk) 15:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I've just removed a sentence from this article which listed some people who have purportedly been described as 'alarmists'. This sentence didn't have any sources. This really should be obvious, but per WP:BLP, we can't say negative things about living people without sources - and saying someone has been called 'alarmist' is certainly negative. If a particular person must be mentioned by name in this article, they should be backed up by a collection of reliable sources, either directly describing that person as 'alarmist' or noting they have been described as such. I'm not convinced it's necessary to mention any particular person in the first place. Robofish ( talk) 00:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
In what way does the New York Times citation:
support the sentence:
In the United Kingdom, alarmist messages are often subject to "subtle critique[s]" in the left-leaning press, while the right-leaning media often "embrace" the message, but undermine it using a "climate skeptic" frame
Surely, no one argues the NYT is right-leaning. And while it can be purchase in the United Kingdom, it isn't properly characterized as a member of the media in the UK, left or right. The article itself is not about the UK media, but about a private meeting in California.
I don't see how it is remotely related to the sentence.-- SPhilbrick T 12:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Those efforts, the letter makes clear, include countering “climate change alarmism and the move to socialized health care,” as well as “the regulatory assault on energy,” and making donations to higher education and philanthropic organizations to advance the Koch agenda
Koch Industries is an oil and gas concern, the largest privately held company in the United States. It and they, the Kochs, lobby extensively with politics, funding, and support for decades. David H. Koch, the wealthiest person in New York City, for example has been quoted denying the existence of global warming (the current climate change due to human activity). They resist any regulation, especially when it is international and effects the fossil fuel industry ( Energy lobby). This is not a trivial connection, this is Superclass Billionaires think tank lobbying over decades. This is a key difference in the Politics of global warming (United States) and Politics of global warming in most of the rest of the world. The economics of the few in the short term, versus the medium term and everyone. 99.52.150.69 ( talk) 05:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
" Koch Industries (an oil conglomerate)" as a clarification? 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 21:56, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
This section on "examples of climate change exaggeration" has quite a few problems. To begin with, it's cherry picked. The source doesn't discuss the a "rhetorical style", it merely uses the word "exaggeration". It's an opinion piece about an issue that's covered far better elsewhere. Likewise for the second part, about the Netherlands ( here). Calling this "exaggeration" fails NPOV, since it takes one narrative where there are many and presents it as if it were an unambiguous truth. Guettarda ( talk) 06:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
This edit doesn't belong here at all. The connection to this article is tenuous at best. It's not actually from Current TV, it's from Treehugger. And it's a tagged "Culture & celebrity (kids)". Treehugger is a blog and the author, Jasmin Malik Chua, is a journalist, not a subject-matter expert. Guettarda ( talk) 07:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Soapboxing, unrelated to improving this article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It seems to me that this page and Wwikipedia:Climate change denial describe two extreme ends of a spectrum of political opinions, and that some aspects the two articles should mirror each other. If we apply widely different standards to the two articles - especially if we label one as denigrating/insulting and not the other - it seems to me that we are allowing a non-neutral POV to creep in. Guy Macon 00:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
1: Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism deals with a term that is widely considered to be an insult, especially by those who are labeled with the term. 2: Wikipedia:Climate change denial deals with a term that is widely considered to be an insult, especially by those who are labeled with the term. 3: The two pages are written according to completely different standards. 4: This difference show me that we (meaning Wikipedia as a whole) are allowing a non-neutral POV to creep in. Nobody has presented anything close to a good argument for treating the two subjects so differently. Mostly the issue is ignored and the subject changed, occasionally an attempt is made to claim that alarmists are good/excusable and denialists evil/inexcusable. 5: It may be that Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism is perfect and Wwikipedia:Climate change denial is completely out of line. It is the different standards that are applied to the two pages that show that one or the other (or possibly both) have a POV problem. 6: It may be that Wikipedia:Climate change denial is perfect and Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism is completely out of line. It is the different standards that are applied to the two pages that show that one or the other (or possibly both) have a POV problem. 7: In my personal opinion (and I may be wrong) it is Wikipedia:Climate change denial that is out of line. I don't think I am wrong about the double standard, but I may be wrong about which page should be changed. Thus I have no specific changes to propose here. 8: On the Wikipedia:Climate change denial there are several editors who think it is just fine the way it is, and have been vigorously defending that position, sometimes with battlefield tactics and a notable lack of assuming good faith. If they are right, then it is Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism needs to be changed so that the same standards are applied to both. 9: It would be very rude and a clear violation of Wikipedia policies to come to the conclusion in point 8 above - on another talk page - and then just make major edits to Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism without any discussion on this talk page. Thus this discussion exists. Guy Macon 00:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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User:Rossnixon has repeatedly added Category:Propaganda and Category:Fringe science to this article, without providing supporting citations. His last edit summary says: "Propaganda (as per Media coverage paragraph). Fringe science (media again, e.g. reporting extreme and unsubstantiated scientific 'findings')." However, nothing in that section "easily classifie[s it] as propaganda" (a requirement for cat:propaganda. As for calling it "fringe science", the article clearly identifies this as a "rhetorical style", a communication style. Guettarda ( talk) 03:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Differentiation from sounding the Alarm for Planetary boundaries Environmental management Planetary management ... as in a Distributed control system? In other words should the article differentiate from alarm sounding for breach of Planetary boundaries, in lack of Environmental management / Planetary management. By analogy as in a Distributed control system Alarm management? Seems this current wp article is thinking in an unnecessary and non-existent "box". 99.181.140.224 ( talk) 23:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Was your Intent to object (or is this a Disputes in English grammar?) Why proposal (business), fixation on Business action on climate change only ... why not all Individual and political action on climate change? 99.181.149.190 ( talk) 01:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Did you plan Easter egg (media)? 99.119.128.233 ( talk) 19:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
"Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of predicted, drastic changes in the earth's climate, which usually means global warming." - that's simply not a correct definition. Alarmism means more than just rhetoric stressing catastrophic effects. It extends far beyond that. A scientific paper which stresses the catastrophic effects is alarmist, however dry the wording. 94.170.107.247 ( talk) 01:56, 12 February 2011 (UTC) Dave
Pete: I reverted your recent removal of Merchants of Doubt and Requiem for a Species from the See Also section because I feel Merchants (at least) is very relevant as to why there even is this notion of "Climate Change Alarmism". As to your re-removal of Requiem: I have no opinion, can neither agree or disagree, as I am not familiar with it; I leave the decision on that to others who are familiar with it. - J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Contrast with "global warming alertness" or Climate change alertism? 99.181.149.175 ( talk) 04:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
My impression of this article is that it is hopelessly POV. Isn't the information already in other articles that discuss various points of view on the climate change issues? Why have an article on one side's opinion of the other side? BigJim707 ( talk) 12:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
If I understand the article right, the view conveyed by the "alarmists" (treated as a unified group in this case, which of course it is not, just a collection of disparate individuals employing a certain pattern or style of depiction of the AGW problem) is that climate change is happening, that its outcomes are negative – or more accurately, catastrophic –, and decisively, that there is nothing that can be done about it. I have actually seen denialists eagerly latching onto the alarmist view, seeing their own position validated by it. Foolishly, a person challenging the denialists seemed to imply the alarmist view, in an exchange on a right-wing website, which had the denialists rejoice and argue that if there is no way to stop global warming, their own position that politics directed at combatting climate change are really counterproductive and harmful is completely justified. This way, denialists actually feed off alarmists, and doomsayers unwittingly (or even consciously?) become useful idiots for (or allies of?) the anti-environmentalists. Which means that both extreme views, while theoretically in polar opposition, are not necessarily so incompatible in practice. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 17:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Is Al Gore now a help or hindrance to the global warming cause? Al Gore's Climate Reality Project is broadcasting its message to 24 time zones across 24 hours by Leo Hickman 15 September 2011 11.12 BST in The Guardian; excerpt ...
A no-doubt sincere presenter from the Solomon Islands was showing slide after slide of extreme weather events around the world that have occurred over the past year and linking everyone, it seemed, to the rise in anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. As anyone who follows the climate debate closely knows, that is a very contentious peg on which to hang your hat. That kind of talk traditionally requires lots of caveats and careful explaining. Done with abandon and raw emotion – as this presenter seemed to be doing – and you are quickly labelled in some quarters as a climate "alarmist".
And, for me, this is one of the key challenges the Climate Reality Project faces. Who exactly is it trying to convince with its urgent, sometimes breathless campaign? Is it preaching to the converted? If so, it is doing a good job.
Or is it trying to win over climate sceptics? I suspect not. I get the sense from Climate Reality's tone and focus that it believes sceptics are a lost cause who are beyond redemption or reason.
That leaves the middle ground – the unconverted.
97.87.29.188 ( talk) 00:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that climate change alarmism rhetoric "stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming to the point where the scale of the problem appears to exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer." This is inaccurate. Climate change alarmism is not limited to this. In fact, while such rhetoric can be called alarmist, that's not the way the term is typically used at all. A much more common example involves people exaggerating the scientific data to argue that, for example, the seas are going to rise up to 20 feet in the near future. Al Gore is arguably the poster child for alarmism, with both skeptics and environmental activists finding him to be a problem, and it's not some fatalist "we're doomed" talk that makes him one:
-- Glynth ( talk) 22:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the merge tag User:King of Hearts over boldy added, the discussion having been closed inappropriately, and was running towards "keep". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) 22:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
The opening sentence is problematic.
It currently reads:
Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style that stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming to the point where the scale of the problem appears to exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer
(Emphasis added)
The first problem is technical: the closing phrase " exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer" is a copy and paste from the source. It is properly attributed, and some might argue it is too short to be a copyright infringement, but I think it is long enough to be problematic. However, there is a larger problem, that if others agree, make the first problem moot. It is not remotely true. Like most people who are reading this page, I have read literally hundreds of article about climate issues. While there may be the occasional odd article claiming nothing can be done, they comprise such a small proportion of the total, that I don't think that notion deserves inclusion, much less the imputation that it is the common theme. In fact, it is so counter to my reading of the literature that I wonder if the authors were making a subtle point – that actions by individuals are ineffectual, and governmental solutions are required. If that is the point, it needs to be made more clearly, but even that point is arguable. My sense of the alarmist literature is almost the exact opposite; it makes the point that dramatic action is needed, and needed soon.
If there's agreement with my second point, then the lede needs rewriting so it is accurate. If I'm missing something, and it is accurate, it needs rewriting to steer clear of copyvio issues.-- SPhilbrick T 15:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Merge discussion taking place at Talk:Global warming controversy#Afd-merger. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 11:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Right. Now that the need to merge has been upheld, II'm going to merge to Media coverage of climate change, as the obvious subpage. 86.** IP ( talk) 17:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is the relevant close for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Climate_change_alarmism_.28closed.29 IRWolfie- ( talk) 19:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Could someone give a reasoned argument for what they are doing instead of just moving things for the heck of it? Thanks. If this was going to media coverage what evidence is there that alarmism is a media phenomenon other than that they have reported on it? One might as well say murder is a media phenomenon.
Dmcq (
talk) 23:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Climate_change_alarmism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.** IP ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Having won the battle here, 86 is now deleting Global warming conspiracy theory. Q Science ( talk) 07:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
The contents of the Climate change alarmism page were merged into Media coverage of climate change and it now redirects there. For the contribution history and old versions of the merged article please see its history. |
This article was nominated for deletion on 16 November 2011 (UTC). The result of the discussion was merge to Global warming controversy. |
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I don't think User:BryantLee's (another sock?) changes were improvements William M. Connolley ( talk) 10:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)
In my secret vault I kept this article. —Preceding undated comment added 00:12, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
I think a short, two paragraph section summarizing this article should be included in the Global warming controversy article. Cla68 ( talk) 06:33, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Can't find a really good source, but there is a counterpoint charge of "economic alarmism" levelled against those who claim that action to mitigate climate change will cause serious economic damage, contrary to the view of most economists who have studied the issue. JQ ( talk) 06:10, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
Herman E. Daly, the former World Bank economist, has been writing for decades about the need for steady-state economics (what Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn called a "zero growth economy") to replace what he called "growthmania" ( and Karl Marx labelled "money fetishism"). Given the worldwide predominance of capitalism and liberalism, it seems that few are willing to listen to his "voice in the wilderness" and, no doubt, would consider this to be "economic alarmism". However, is it so odd to point out (as Daly did) that "the Earth may be developing but it is not growing!"? This therefore potentially links to Wikipedia's pages on "Limits to growth" and "Tragedy of the commons" (et al). Mlack65 ( talk) 17:09, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Just a quick start, as it's late:
1) The definition of "Climate change alarmism -- which is truly baroque:
-- is apparently uncited. Besides being unintelligible. Cf. Climate change denial.
2)The followon amplification,
-- makes even less sense, and is cited to an opinion piece by Kerry Emanuel, who doesn't strike me as a disinterested scholar in this matter.
Anyway, the article starts off just as badly as does Climate change denial. In my view. It doesn't get better. What a mess. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
I don't understand why 'The term "alarmist" is primarily used by those who reject the scientific consensus on climate change as an epithet for those who treat the issue objectively makes no sense. Nor is it obvious why it is POV [1] William M. Connolley ( talk) 09:10, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
*Kerry Emanuel citation [2] -- this article is the sole cite (at present) for our definition of CC alarmism in the lede. But the only mention of alarmism that I could find in Emanuel's article is:
Editor Guettarda seems to imply (above) that he wrote the lede by summarizing several sources(?), not all online. Do we have a WP:Synthesis problem? Or am I all wet? It would be best to quote any definitions we find as a footnote, I think. TIA, Pete Tillman ( talk) 16:43, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
We have a new POV fork, Climate change exaggeration. It has a fair number of refs. Could we see what's worth merging is fairly short order and redirect the article? — kwami ( talk) 07:47, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I've restored SA's redirect to here. This is yet more disruption by MN. Didn't we have all this discussion before? William M. Connolley ( talk) 09:11, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
There is also a discussion page on the article proposed for merger. Collect ( talk) 11:05, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
The page is now at User:Marknutley/Climate change exaggeration if anyone wants to merge stuff from there. Whilst not a recreation of the deleted article, the March 2010 AFD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Climate change exaggeration seems to establish "alarmism" as the preferred term, and this article was created in June 2010. Global warming alarmism, by the by, has existed as a redirect since 2004. Rd232 talk 14:08, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Any sources supporting this addition? Guettarda ( talk) 04:00, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
Statement to which sources are attached: Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming, global cooling
Neither of these statements support the statement to which the reference was attached. The only place the word "alarm" even shows up in the article is in the headline (which, as we all know, is rarely written by the author of newspaper articles). Guettarda ( talk) 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC) [Analysis of the second source to come, but I need to run to class. Guettarda ( talk) 14:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)]
I took it out. Its fairly obviously silly William M. Connolley ( talk) 14:17, 8 September 2010 (UTC)
The piece is entitled "Don't believe doomsayers that insist the world's end is nigh" and is listed in Lexis as "analysis". In addition to 'global cooling', the article speaks of the "population bomb" that wasn't, the ozone hole that went away, the acid rain problem that was "miraculously...averted". In other words, it's a testament to know-nothingism.
The content and tone of the article make it pretty clear that it does not meet our standards as a source for factual information. That aside, how does it support ''Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming, global cooling?
I cleaned this up a bit, in a few free minutes. We should probably add the use of "warmer"/ "warmist" as another commonly-used pejorative and/or epithet. I don't think finding RS's of such uses will be hard. I have little time now, but will return to this, especially the lede problems I mentioned above. Thanks to all who've commented and pitched in, and sorry for the confrontational tone there -- hazards of late-night posting. Best, Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:14, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
Page 1326 presents several quotes from climate scientists referencing, in their opinion, the cooling alarmism of the 1970s. "Hysterical fears," "consensus panic", and "fashionable panic." Pages 1330-1331 also reference the perceived alarmism of the cooling 1970s such as Time magazine's "ominously worried." These are all synonyms for alarmism. This article is about the concept, not about the word. The other references used in this article also use synonyms for the alarmism related to cooling and warming. Cla68 ( talk) 23:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
From WP:SYNTH: Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. If one reliable source says A, and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C that is not mentioned by either of the sources
Global warming sceptics and others sometimes invoke the fact that media in the 1970s reported about the possibility of global cooling to suggest that the current discussions on global warming are of an alarmist nature.
This statement is supposedly supported by Kapitsa & Bashkirtsev from The Hindu, an opinion piece from the Irish Independent, Schmidt from the Jerusalem Post, Wilson from the Sunday Times, a quote from the National Post and Peterson, Connolley & Fleck. Working from the quotations supplied:
floor of the U.S. Senate where Inhofe (2003) followed up that quote by stating, “That was the same timeframe that the global-warming alarmists are concerned about global warming.” The actual report, however, shows that the original context, rather than supporting the global cooling myth, discusses the full state of the science at the time, as described earlier. The words not extracted by Schlesinger and Inhofe are highlighted with italics:...
Taking a look at the sentence in depth:
What would a source need to say in order to support this statement without imply[ing] a conclusion...that is not mentioned by [any] of the sources? It would need to address usage: Global warming sceptics and others sometimes invoke the fact is a statement about usage by certain people. If a source simply supplies an example of this sort of behaviour, it cannot be used to support the meta-commentary that "[various people] sometimes invoke the fact". Stitching together several examples of usage is a violation of WP:SYNTH. So what do the sources say?
None of the first five sources (Kapitsa & Bashkirtsev; the Irish Independent; Schmidt; Wilson; the National Post) say anything (in the quotes provided) about anyone "invok[ing] the fact..." While they could be taken as examples of people invoking "global cooling", using them to support statements about usage is classic WP:SYNTH. They are examples which, putatively, illustrate the behaviour that the sentence is addressing. None of them can be used to support a statement about usage. While the Peterson et al. article does say some things about usage, it does not say anything about this sort of usage.
There is, of course another major problem with this sentence - one of relevance. Even if the statement about usage were supported, it stands there, alone in the lead, without any context. It simply illustrates one of the many ways that certain groups have tried to discredit mainstream science. Guettarda ( talk) 02:49, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
Um, thanks. But I really don't know what you mean by this. How are you suggesting that these be incorporated into the article? I think we all understand how to do Google searches. But what is the Edwards source? And unpublished ms? And the Lindzen article - is it published? Is it unpublished? Why is the Leo Gold blog a reliable source for this? What's the Leiserowitz article have to add that isn't already covered in the existing article of his that I did cite? Guettarda ( talk) 18:23, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
I've added a quote from Lindzen from his paper on alarmism. Thanks to editor JN466 for bringing it to our attention.
I also added a footnote to the Schneider quote. This is because many readers will recall this famous quote, "So we have to offer up scary scenarios, make simplified, dramatic statements, and make little mention of any doubts we might have." -- which Schneider always maintained was pulled out of context (as indeed it was -- but still....). In any case, cognitive dissonance (for me) on reading the bit about Schneider opposing alarmism. -- Pete Tillman ( talk) 05:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)
Is the AGU's revised (2007) statement to be considered as "alarmist" or not? As it is, this is unclear. However, (IMO) the AGU's intent is clear - they are not trying to alarm anybody - they just want people to take the problem of climate change seriously. Any comments? Mlack65 ( talk) 16:40, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
Climate change: biological and human aspects By Jonathan Cowie, Cambridge University Press refers to brief fears of a new ice age threatening civilisation in the 1970s, but also adds that subsequent research and data showed that on balance, the factors investigated had a warming effect on the climate.
This book review by William Rusher chronicles a history of alarmist media reports about climate change, highlighting a paragraph in the reviewed book, "This isn't a question of science. It's a question of whether Americans can trust what the media tell them about science."
Lindzen argues, The public discourse on global warming has little in common with the standards of scientific discourse. Rather, it is part of political discourse where comments are made to secure the political base and frighten the opposition rather than to illuminate issues. In political discourse, information is to be “spun” to reinforce pre-existing beliefs, and to discourage opposition. The chief example of the latter is the perpetual claim of universal scientific agreement. This claim was part of the media treatment of global cooling (in the 1970’s) and has been part of the treatment of global warming since 1988 (well before most climate change institutes were created). The consensus preceded the research. That media discourse on climate change is political rather than scientific should, in fact, come as no surprise. However, even scientific literature and institutions have become politicized. Some scientists issue meaningless remarks in what I believe to be the full expectation that the media and the environmental movement will provide the ‘spin.’ Since the societal response to alarm has, so far, been to increase scientific funding, there has been little reason for scientists to complain.
Peterson, Connolley and Fleck demonstrate that there was no scientific consensus about global cooling in the 1970s, studies warning about global cooling being outnumbered by those that warned about global warming.
Summarising, it seems clear that the media have a long tradition of alarmist reporting about climate change, be it cooling or warming, generally claiming scientific consensus in their reporting, even where no such scientific consensus exists. They do so whether the message is cooling or warming. It is equally clear that the scientific consensus that has developed over the past 30 years (as described in the scientific literature, rather than claimed in the media) does support the notion that the climate is warming, and it is clear that at least some scientists that support the scientific consensus have been accused of buying into and fuelling the alarmist approach of the media.
Would editors more knowledgeable than me agree that that is a fair characterisation of the situation? -- JN 466 11:05, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I have tagged this section as it does not seem to follow from the rest of the article. First we learn about 'Alarmism as a pejorative', although that section seems badly cited. Then the article tells us about 'Alarmism as an extreme position', but that 11% of the US population takes this position - half as many again as the US skeptics. We are told that 'Media coverage' understandably leans towards searching out such extreme and pejorative views in their coverage. Finally we get to what sounds like the sensible conclusion, 'Views of scientists', but then we are presented with nothing but vociferous criticism of 'alarmism', and that from only five individual spokesmen (Stephen Schneider, Mike Hulme, Hans von Storch, Richard Lindzen, and William Gray). Do these five represent the whole of science? Looking again at the title, 'Views of scientists', this is hopeless - this isn't the 'Findings of the scientific community' or the 'Scientific view', but is set out to be a representative survey of every individual 'scientist' in the world! (An impossible task). The title needs changing and then a representative section needs writing, giving the considered view of the worldwide scientific community on the degree of alarm that is to be considered appropriate under the known circumstances. -- Nigelj ( talk) 17:31, 12 September 2010 (UTC)
I have added an introductory paragraph to this section in an attempt to mitigate the problems described above. I have based it mostly on the paper by Hansen et al (2008) Target Atmospheric CO2: Where Should Humanity Aim?. This covers enough of the ground to give a context for what follows, and is fairly middle-of-the-road in terms of mainstream published science. It may have been better to use the IPCC summaries and projections, but they seem to be upsetting people who claim they are 'too political' in other discussions, so I chose to go straight from a mainstream published paper. Further suggestions welcome. -- Nigelj ( talk) 15:59, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
I've just removed a sentence from this article which listed some people who have purportedly been described as 'alarmists'. This sentence didn't have any sources. This really should be obvious, but per WP:BLP, we can't say negative things about living people without sources - and saying someone has been called 'alarmist' is certainly negative. If a particular person must be mentioned by name in this article, they should be backed up by a collection of reliable sources, either directly describing that person as 'alarmist' or noting they have been described as such. I'm not convinced it's necessary to mention any particular person in the first place. Robofish ( talk) 00:25, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
In what way does the New York Times citation:
support the sentence:
In the United Kingdom, alarmist messages are often subject to "subtle critique[s]" in the left-leaning press, while the right-leaning media often "embrace" the message, but undermine it using a "climate skeptic" frame
Surely, no one argues the NYT is right-leaning. And while it can be purchase in the United Kingdom, it isn't properly characterized as a member of the media in the UK, left or right. The article itself is not about the UK media, but about a private meeting in California.
I don't see how it is remotely related to the sentence.-- SPhilbrick T 12:08, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
Those efforts, the letter makes clear, include countering “climate change alarmism and the move to socialized health care,” as well as “the regulatory assault on energy,” and making donations to higher education and philanthropic organizations to advance the Koch agenda
Koch Industries is an oil and gas concern, the largest privately held company in the United States. It and they, the Kochs, lobby extensively with politics, funding, and support for decades. David H. Koch, the wealthiest person in New York City, for example has been quoted denying the existence of global warming (the current climate change due to human activity). They resist any regulation, especially when it is international and effects the fossil fuel industry ( Energy lobby). This is not a trivial connection, this is Superclass Billionaires think tank lobbying over decades. This is a key difference in the Politics of global warming (United States) and Politics of global warming in most of the rest of the world. The economics of the few in the short term, versus the medium term and everyone. 99.52.150.69 ( talk) 05:46, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
" Koch Industries (an oil conglomerate)" as a clarification? 209.255.78.138 ( talk) 21:56, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
This section on "examples of climate change exaggeration" has quite a few problems. To begin with, it's cherry picked. The source doesn't discuss the a "rhetorical style", it merely uses the word "exaggeration". It's an opinion piece about an issue that's covered far better elsewhere. Likewise for the second part, about the Netherlands ( here). Calling this "exaggeration" fails NPOV, since it takes one narrative where there are many and presents it as if it were an unambiguous truth. Guettarda ( talk) 06:54, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
This edit doesn't belong here at all. The connection to this article is tenuous at best. It's not actually from Current TV, it's from Treehugger. And it's a tagged "Culture & celebrity (kids)". Treehugger is a blog and the author, Jasmin Malik Chua, is a journalist, not a subject-matter expert. Guettarda ( talk) 07:02, 12 December 2010 (UTC)
Soapboxing, unrelated to improving this article |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It seems to me that this page and Wwikipedia:Climate change denial describe two extreme ends of a spectrum of political opinions, and that some aspects the two articles should mirror each other. If we apply widely different standards to the two articles - especially if we label one as denigrating/insulting and not the other - it seems to me that we are allowing a non-neutral POV to creep in. Guy Macon 00:10, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
1: Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism deals with a term that is widely considered to be an insult, especially by those who are labeled with the term. 2: Wikipedia:Climate change denial deals with a term that is widely considered to be an insult, especially by those who are labeled with the term. 3: The two pages are written according to completely different standards. 4: This difference show me that we (meaning Wikipedia as a whole) are allowing a non-neutral POV to creep in. Nobody has presented anything close to a good argument for treating the two subjects so differently. Mostly the issue is ignored and the subject changed, occasionally an attempt is made to claim that alarmists are good/excusable and denialists evil/inexcusable. 5: It may be that Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism is perfect and Wwikipedia:Climate change denial is completely out of line. It is the different standards that are applied to the two pages that show that one or the other (or possibly both) have a POV problem. 6: It may be that Wikipedia:Climate change denial is perfect and Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism is completely out of line. It is the different standards that are applied to the two pages that show that one or the other (or possibly both) have a POV problem. 7: In my personal opinion (and I may be wrong) it is Wikipedia:Climate change denial that is out of line. I don't think I am wrong about the double standard, but I may be wrong about which page should be changed. Thus I have no specific changes to propose here. 8: On the Wikipedia:Climate change denial there are several editors who think it is just fine the way it is, and have been vigorously defending that position, sometimes with battlefield tactics and a notable lack of assuming good faith. If they are right, then it is Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism needs to be changed so that the same standards are applied to both. 9: It would be very rude and a clear violation of Wikipedia policies to come to the conclusion in point 8 above - on another talk page - and then just make major edits to Wikipedia:Climate change alarmism without any discussion on this talk page. Thus this discussion exists. Guy Macon 00:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)
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User:Rossnixon has repeatedly added Category:Propaganda and Category:Fringe science to this article, without providing supporting citations. His last edit summary says: "Propaganda (as per Media coverage paragraph). Fringe science (media again, e.g. reporting extreme and unsubstantiated scientific 'findings')." However, nothing in that section "easily classifie[s it] as propaganda" (a requirement for cat:propaganda. As for calling it "fringe science", the article clearly identifies this as a "rhetorical style", a communication style. Guettarda ( talk) 03:12, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Differentiation from sounding the Alarm for Planetary boundaries Environmental management Planetary management ... as in a Distributed control system? In other words should the article differentiate from alarm sounding for breach of Planetary boundaries, in lack of Environmental management / Planetary management. By analogy as in a Distributed control system Alarm management? Seems this current wp article is thinking in an unnecessary and non-existent "box". 99.181.140.224 ( talk) 23:59, 2 February 2011 (UTC)
Was your Intent to object (or is this a Disputes in English grammar?) Why proposal (business), fixation on Business action on climate change only ... why not all Individual and political action on climate change? 99.181.149.190 ( talk) 01:41, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Did you plan Easter egg (media)? 99.119.128.233 ( talk) 19:13, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
"Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style which stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of predicted, drastic changes in the earth's climate, which usually means global warming." - that's simply not a correct definition. Alarmism means more than just rhetoric stressing catastrophic effects. It extends far beyond that. A scientific paper which stresses the catastrophic effects is alarmist, however dry the wording. 94.170.107.247 ( talk) 01:56, 12 February 2011 (UTC) Dave
Pete: I reverted your recent removal of Merchants of Doubt and Requiem for a Species from the See Also section because I feel Merchants (at least) is very relevant as to why there even is this notion of "Climate Change Alarmism". As to your re-removal of Requiem: I have no opinion, can neither agree or disagree, as I am not familiar with it; I leave the decision on that to others who are familiar with it. - J. Johnson (JJ) ( talk) 23:23, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
Contrast with "global warming alertness" or Climate change alertism? 99.181.149.175 ( talk) 04:39, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
My impression of this article is that it is hopelessly POV. Isn't the information already in other articles that discuss various points of view on the climate change issues? Why have an article on one side's opinion of the other side? BigJim707 ( talk) 12:30, 7 July 2011 (UTC)
If I understand the article right, the view conveyed by the "alarmists" (treated as a unified group in this case, which of course it is not, just a collection of disparate individuals employing a certain pattern or style of depiction of the AGW problem) is that climate change is happening, that its outcomes are negative – or more accurately, catastrophic –, and decisively, that there is nothing that can be done about it. I have actually seen denialists eagerly latching onto the alarmist view, seeing their own position validated by it. Foolishly, a person challenging the denialists seemed to imply the alarmist view, in an exchange on a right-wing website, which had the denialists rejoice and argue that if there is no way to stop global warming, their own position that politics directed at combatting climate change are really counterproductive and harmful is completely justified. This way, denialists actually feed off alarmists, and doomsayers unwittingly (or even consciously?) become useful idiots for (or allies of?) the anti-environmentalists. Which means that both extreme views, while theoretically in polar opposition, are not necessarily so incompatible in practice. -- Florian Blaschke ( talk) 17:44, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
Is Al Gore now a help or hindrance to the global warming cause? Al Gore's Climate Reality Project is broadcasting its message to 24 time zones across 24 hours by Leo Hickman 15 September 2011 11.12 BST in The Guardian; excerpt ...
A no-doubt sincere presenter from the Solomon Islands was showing slide after slide of extreme weather events around the world that have occurred over the past year and linking everyone, it seemed, to the rise in anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. As anyone who follows the climate debate closely knows, that is a very contentious peg on which to hang your hat. That kind of talk traditionally requires lots of caveats and careful explaining. Done with abandon and raw emotion – as this presenter seemed to be doing – and you are quickly labelled in some quarters as a climate "alarmist".
And, for me, this is one of the key challenges the Climate Reality Project faces. Who exactly is it trying to convince with its urgent, sometimes breathless campaign? Is it preaching to the converted? If so, it is doing a good job.
Or is it trying to win over climate sceptics? I suspect not. I get the sense from Climate Reality's tone and focus that it believes sceptics are a lost cause who are beyond redemption or reason.
That leaves the middle ground – the unconverted.
97.87.29.188 ( talk) 00:10, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
The opening paragraph states that climate change alarmism rhetoric "stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming to the point where the scale of the problem appears to exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer." This is inaccurate. Climate change alarmism is not limited to this. In fact, while such rhetoric can be called alarmist, that's not the way the term is typically used at all. A much more common example involves people exaggerating the scientific data to argue that, for example, the seas are going to rise up to 20 feet in the near future. Al Gore is arguably the poster child for alarmism, with both skeptics and environmental activists finding him to be a problem, and it's not some fatalist "we're doomed" talk that makes him one:
-- Glynth ( talk) 22:56, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I have removed the merge tag User:King of Hearts over boldy added, the discussion having been closed inappropriately, and was running towards "keep". ~ J. Johnson (JJ) 22:24, 30 November 2011 (UTC)
The opening sentence is problematic.
It currently reads:
Climate change alarmism or global warming alarmism is a critical description of a rhetorical style that stresses the potentially catastrophic effects of global warming to the point where the scale of the problem appears to exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer
(Emphasis added)
The first problem is technical: the closing phrase " exclude the possibility of real action or agency by the reader or viewer" is a copy and paste from the source. It is properly attributed, and some might argue it is too short to be a copyright infringement, but I think it is long enough to be problematic. However, there is a larger problem, that if others agree, make the first problem moot. It is not remotely true. Like most people who are reading this page, I have read literally hundreds of article about climate issues. While there may be the occasional odd article claiming nothing can be done, they comprise such a small proportion of the total, that I don't think that notion deserves inclusion, much less the imputation that it is the common theme. In fact, it is so counter to my reading of the literature that I wonder if the authors were making a subtle point – that actions by individuals are ineffectual, and governmental solutions are required. If that is the point, it needs to be made more clearly, but even that point is arguable. My sense of the alarmist literature is almost the exact opposite; it makes the point that dramatic action is needed, and needed soon.
If there's agreement with my second point, then the lede needs rewriting so it is accurate. If I'm missing something, and it is accurate, it needs rewriting to steer clear of copyvio issues.-- SPhilbrick T 15:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
Merge discussion taking place at Talk:Global warming controversy#Afd-merger. -- Kim D. Petersen ( talk) 11:42, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Right. Now that the need to merge has been upheld, II'm going to merge to Media coverage of climate change, as the obvious subpage. 86.** IP ( talk) 17:24, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Here is the relevant close for those interested: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deletion_review#Climate_change_alarmism_.28closed.29 IRWolfie- ( talk) 19:55, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Could someone give a reasoned argument for what they are doing instead of just moving things for the heck of it? Thanks. If this was going to media coverage what evidence is there that alarmism is a media phenomenon other than that they have reported on it? One might as well say murder is a media phenomenon.
Dmcq (
talk) 23:44, 10 December 2011 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Climate_change_alarmism — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.** IP ( talk • contribs) 01:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
Having won the battle here, 86 is now deleting Global warming conspiracy theory. Q Science ( talk) 07:44, 11 December 2011 (UTC)