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Added 'aims to provide a rational basis' in the opening, to satisfy Wikipedia's neutrality policy. To say that it 'provides a rational basis' is to endorse the project. Saying apologists 'aim' to give a rational basis doesn't take a stand one way or the other, but adds a buffer of neutrality for those not Christian: Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.255.71 ( talk) 00:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry about that, it took me longer to finish going over the other sections. I think we came to very similar conclusions - take a look at the new edit and see if you like those. I'm open to criticism/suggestions. Phyesalis ( talk) 01:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Much of this article is either unsourced, or original WP:Synthesis of Biblical passages. What remains is, almost-exclusively, cited to the primary sources of the apologists themselves. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Evolutionary biology is universally recognised within both science and philosophy of science as a subfield of the science of biology. That certain apologists don't like this does not change the fact. Attempts to give equal validity to creationism by attempting to reduce evolutionary biology to a mere "Darwinian concept" is against Wikipedia policy. See also WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE & WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Before loading up the 'Creationist apologetics' section with every creationist argument in objections to evolution (and particularly ones not contained in current sources), I would remind editors that the more of this material that is added, the greater the imperative will be to give WP:DUE weight to the majority scientific viewpoint, which is that these arguments are wholly without merit. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 10:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would particularly suggest that editors take note of:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would further point out that we have whole article (e.g. Objections to evolution, Flood geology, Creation geophysics & Creationist cosmologies) dealing specifically with creationist claims. Repeating them (and their scientific rebuttals) here would not appear to be productive. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 12:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 13:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would also point out that this section is badly in need of WP:SECONDARY sources, being cited (almost?) exclusively to primary sources. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 13:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Again... and I quote "[Darwinism]] is also used neutrally within the scientific community to distinguish modern evolutionary theories from those first proposed by Darwin, as well as by historians to differentiate it from other evolutionary theories from around the same period. For example, Darwinism may be used to refer to Darwin's proposed mechanism of natural selection, in comparison to more recent mechanisms such as genetic drift and gene flow." If you are stating that there is only one model, then what is this "modern evolutionary theories" (plural)? While the term evolution is used scientifically to mean one thing, colloquially it can mean different things. I simply think it would be well to make it clear. I am not going to continue to debate on the rest, simply put I disagree, but it isn't important if there is a compromise on the point above and am a little tired of belaboring what should be an otherwise simple process. Also, if you want to make the point of what the Catholic Church believes, I suggest you read the Pope Benedict XVI and today section in which those views are "some theory of evolution" which is to say, not necessarily your preferred theory of evolution... the views within the Catholic Church are not entirely one sided as is true of every group. Gingabox ( talk) 18:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 18:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
How about they "reject naturalistic views of the origins of life"? Or something akin to that, because that is really what is at issue, not evolution in and of itself. The point of contention is typically life from non-life via natural mechanistic process which is not relegated to evolutionary biology. Gingabox ( talk) 00:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, please read the Creationism article which clearly states "In contrast to the strict creationists, evolutionary creationists maintain that, although evolution accounts for the nature of the biosphere, evolution itself is cosmologically attributable to a Creator deity." and reference the notion with - "See, e.g., Corey MA (1993). "Making sense of the 'coincidences'". In MA Corey, God and the new cosmology: The anthropic design argument (pp. 157-174). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield." Is that sufficient to end the argument that all creationists do this or that? Gingabox ( talk) 06:04, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 06:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
While debating is all well and good, I would appreciate if we could stop debating and start finding a way to work on the text of the article, which was the initial point. As of yet, you have not made any suggestion other than "...reject the scientific theory of evolution..." Which again is not true for all creationists as I have made abundantly clear. Your arguments have thus far been to show that you are not willing to express the idea in a neutral tone. Should we turn it over to WP:DRR or compromise?
Here is yet another suggestion for your consideration: Within Creationism, there are at least two camps. Examples of these are Strict Creationism and Evolutionary Creationism. While SC rejects the scientific theory of evolution, ECs view evolution as a tool which God used to create and shape life. EC differs from Theistic Evolution in that they view God as being more intimately involved than do most TEs. Then cite the source: [2 on the Theistic evolution page] Evolution Vs. Creationism, Eugenie Scott, Niles Eldredge, p62-63 and add a scientific counter-view if you feel it necessary. Is that fair? Gingabox ( talk) 08:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
You have not provided a single shred of evidence why my favoured "disagree with the scientific theory of evolution" is an inaccurate or misleading representation of creationist views. Nor have you provided any evidence contesting my rebuttal of your proposals. If you want the debates to stop, then either put up evidence (not mere argument by assertion) or stop debating. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I have time and again provided evidence, your refusal of said evidence does not negate that it has been provided. Here is yet another: Both Ronald Fisher (1890–1962) and Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900–1975), were Christians and architects of the modern evolutionary synthesis. Dobzhansky, writes in Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution: "I am a creationist and an evolutionist." So, if you are saying that two of the architects of the MES who consider that one can be a creationist and evolutionist as invalid evidence, then I simply have nothing left to say here as you are blatantly disregarding any such proof. Gingabox ( talk) 10:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Submitted to Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal for informal mediation. Please work with me on a way to word the statement that is not offensive to those who consider themselves creationists that do not disagree with "the scientific theory of evolution." I have no problem with stating that Christian apologists view the science in one way, while scientists view it the other, but I would appreciate if you do not want it completely one sided (i.e. "...disagree with the scientific theory of evolution. Science has found ways to explain...") Gingabox ( talk) 12:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
First of all I have to mention that I am agnostic and aren't a big friend of Catholicism and Evangelists. Still the phrase "Christian apologetics" sounds very judgmental to me. Shouldn't a Wikipedia-article use the name they give themselves as name of the article? Jschoder ( talk) 17:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The comment above reinforces the objection raised by the choice of language used: 'they' and 'themselves'. I note that it doesn't say "It is the name we've chosen for ourselves". The premise of the article suggests that Christianity is something to be apologized for. Perhaps the meaning of the word apologetics has changed over the centuries, but in modern parlance it certainly casts a negative light on the topic right from the title on down, and indeed reflects the anti-Christian bias of the author. G.K. Chesterton talks about what Christianity is, and what it isn't; there wasn't a scrap of apology in him. Others may call him an apologist, but they would be wrong. He simply called himself "Christian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.191.109.6 ( talk) 05:36, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I think that the confusion here is over the fact that the word 'apologetics' sounds similar to and is based on the same roots as the word 'apology'. 'Apology' connotes regret or remorse. The etymology of the words suggests that the original meaning of the roots did not have this connotation. [1] [2] -- 20:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjwgarner ( talk • contribs)
References
As others have said, you are ignorant of Greek/Latin and are defining terms that are thousands of years old by their current usage. 'apology' is originally from Greek and doesn't mean to express sorrow but is rather a defense against critics. http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#ἀπολογία Science, religion, politicians, etc. all engage in "apologetics" although they don't usually use the term. The use in Christianity is traditional, ignoring the semantic shift with the word "apology" in 21st century widespread-ignorance-of-Greek-and-Latin roots English. If you had studied Latin and Greek, you wouldn't have been ignorant of this. I blame the modern education system, not you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.94.122 ( talk) 20:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
It should be remembered that unlike (Christian) creationism (which is pervasively Christian apologetics), not all (Christian) Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creation writing is defending Christianity against other worldviews -- a lot of it is defending science against creationism. Most probably most TE writers do both, but care needs to be taken to place emphasis on the former in the context of this article (unlike Theistic Evolution, which should cover both aspects). Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I frequently have recourse to modern scholarship that deals with the Church Fathers as sources for the religious practices of antiquity. These theological efforts to debunk traditional belief systems are more often referred to specifically as "Christian polemic" rather than the broader "Christian apologetics." The term "Christian polemic" is also used for apologetics driven by criticism of Judaism and Islam. Therefore, I've added a sentence explaining the term "Christian polemic" as it relates to the more general term "Christian apologetics," polemic being the mode of apologetics that uses the rhetoric of attack, as indicated by the Latin titles of various patristic treatises using the words contra and adversus. I see a tag requesting a citation, for some reason, for the statement that Tertullian, Jerome, et al. (Augustine is bizarrely omitted) were Christian apologists; some of the Fathers have works specifically titled Apologia, and I'm not sure why this bare statement is subject to challenge. According to WP:V, citations are required for content likely to be challenged. I wonder whether some editors are focused on modern controversies such as evolution to the diminishment of documenting the history of the genre of Christian literature known as "apologetics." I don't think this article is the place for hashing out evolution vs. creationism, or any of the arguments themselves, but rather for describing the genre or mode of discourse. Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Removed the disputed text as polemics isn't a branch of apologetics and contrary to the definition of apologetics in the article (out of scope). — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSci ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
[Moved from User talk:Hrafn ] I noticed you had removed the update that I made concerning the debate between old earth and young earth creationists. The reason why I added this paragraph was to explain that though there is a debate with the creationist community over how they believe God made creation, they do not debate on whether or not God created everything. I provided links and footnotes as verification, while showing a similarity in the Christian apologetic community with that of the naturalist community that differing opinions do not necessarily mean differing stances. My fear is that currently, while reading the Creationist Apologetics subcategory, the implication stands that there are two camps that completely disagree on this issue and thus the entirety of the Christian Creationist Apologetic, even if there is truth in one of those camps, is not to be taken seriously because it is seems to imply that both camps are in a strong disagreement with little common ground. My paragraph was intended to show that in most, if not all of the other issues the two camps are united but that this is just one point of disagreement, and that as with any science this can be healthy to discuss.
Is it then wrong to demonstrate the unity of the camps on most issues and the common thread between the two so as not to make it sound like they are from two completely different views? I am not trying to further an agenda, but rather explain this issue accurately so that the issue can be seriously discussed. If it is okay to add this information, how can I word it in such a way that it does not sound like I am not doing original research? Also, what other sources or information would I need to add to make this more credible? I have quotes from apologists such as Hank Hanegraaff concerning the debate between the two camps and that Christians should not divide over the issue but rather discuss it to come closer to truth. If that would help, I would gladly add it.
I am new to editing Wikipedia and feel I have a lot to contribute to this website. That said, I also have a lot to learn. Seeing as that you have edited several works in the past on this site, I want your input and want to work with you and with others on this site to help make it all that it can and should be. Thanks again for your time and patience, and I look forward to working with you and the rest of the Wikipedia community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FRHolmes86 ( talk • contribs) 16:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Just glanced over the Scientific Apologetics section and it seems misnamed. It's not talking about science but evolution. I'm not aware of any scientists YEC, OEC, whatever, claiming there to be a conflict, it's about how, or whether, to reconcile the Bible and evolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.25.1.208 ( talk) 03:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Could somebody please explain to me how the Sproul quote relates to the rest of the 'Biblical motivation section -- he appears to neither be discussing a biblical basis for the motivation to engage in apologetics (rather he is talking about a motivation to defend the scripture) and is not discussing any of the quoted biblical viewpoint given in the rest of the section. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:30, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to be doing a source clean up here in a few days to get rid of the style template that someone just tagged this with. Do we really need a long list if we have a link to a wikipedia article that contains the same list? Does anyone have a problem with me weeding that list down a bit, maybe to just general / intro apologetics resources?
What say you? ReformedArsenal ( talk) 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I tweaked the following to be much more mathematically accurate: Young Earth Creationists believe that Earth is ~6,000 years-old... Science: this Universe is 13.75 billion-years-old & Earth is 4.55 billion-years-old. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 15:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Because of the nature of this article immediately pertaining to theological debate, it would seem that links to other articles such as Criticisms of Christianity, Origin theories of Christianity, Atheistic apologetics, and similar would be in order. Were I more familiar with wikimarkup I would do so myself, because of the trivial difficulty of the addition; as is, I am left to call on a more experienced editor to add this section. 66.233.132.60 ( talk) 18:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
¬¬¬¬whoever is deleting my reference to rational wiki please stop or I will report you to the wiki admin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:561E:FA00:952:A639:3F33:C0F7 ( talk) 21:08, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Polemics is not a part of Christian theology, though some have used it as a pejorative reference to apologetics. This also appears to have been added despite opposition and a lack of consensus. Propose to remove the following:
Christian polemics is a branch of apologetics advocating for the correctness of the Christian belief system, while discrediting every other contradictory belief system.[5][6]
01:58, 20 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSci ( talk • contribs)
Article relies on very bad sources mostly. Neutral third party sources should be sought and to rely as little as possible on Christian Apologists themselves. The third party sources then dictate which apologetic arguments and writers are notable and relevant, rather than just finding random apologetists themselves as sources. And more reliance on high quality academic books. Also dictionary sources are to be avoided if possible.
Article generally needs to have much of it re-written. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 22:44, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
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I think the current lede sentence sourced to Catholic encyclopedia is quite misleading: a branch of Christian theology that defends Christianity against objections
, if the article is to cover polemics. I think this describes the modern Christian apologetic faith literature, which contains discussion like But what of the Church herself, she who has preserved the truths revealed and enacted by Christ
[1] However, based on scholarly sources, the apologetic writers engaged in a considerable amount of polemic (especially against Jews and Muslims).
[2]
[3]
[4]
And would we deal with anti-Christian polemic like this briefly in this article for balance? (The details would have to go in a separate article.) [5]
References
Why do priests father William Dalton jr ( talk) 14:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Here's the first paragraph of the "Varieties" section as it stands:
"There are a variety of Christian apologetic styles and schools of thought. The major types of Christian apologetics include historical and legal evidentialist apologetics, presuppositional apologetics, philosophical apologetics, prophetic apologetics, doctrinal apologetics, biblical apologetics, moral apologetics, and scientific apologetics."
As far as I can tell, this classification was pulled out of thin air. There is no reputable, authoritative source cited that uses this classification. It just sounds like someone listed as many different types of Christian apologetics as they could think of off the top of their head.
Moreover, it is what logicians call a cross-classification: Some of the categories listed belong underneath one another rather than as separate categories. For example, moral apologetics is obviously a sub-category of philosophical apologetics rather than a coordinate genus, as illustrated by the fact that the moral argument is repeated in the section on philosophical apologetics. In addition, many practitioners of philosophical apologetics include historical and scientific arguments as an integral part of their case, and historical and scientific arguments for Christianity are virtually always made in conjunction with philosophical reasoning.
This entire section should be reorganized. The first step would be to find a source like the book "Five Views of Apologetics" and use that as an authoritative basis for classification, with (probably) a miscellaneous section at the end for arguments that don't fit neatly into any of the indicated categories. Torin11 ( talk) 15:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
First off, is it "Christian apologetic" or "Christian apologist"?
Generally it refers to "someone who defends the Christianity". So would that mean only people who engage in debate? Asherkobin ( talk) 00:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC)
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Added 'aims to provide a rational basis' in the opening, to satisfy Wikipedia's neutrality policy. To say that it 'provides a rational basis' is to endorse the project. Saying apologists 'aim' to give a rational basis doesn't take a stand one way or the other, but adds a buffer of neutrality for those not Christian: Jews, Buddhists, Muslims, etc.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.253.255.71 ( talk) 00:38, 26 October 2010 (UTC)
Sorry about that, it took me longer to finish going over the other sections. I think we came to very similar conclusions - take a look at the new edit and see if you like those. I'm open to criticism/suggestions. Phyesalis ( talk) 01:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Much of this article is either unsourced, or original WP:Synthesis of Biblical passages. What remains is, almost-exclusively, cited to the primary sources of the apologists themselves. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:29, 13 November 2010 (UTC)
Evolutionary biology is universally recognised within both science and philosophy of science as a subfield of the science of biology. That certain apologists don't like this does not change the fact. Attempts to give equal validity to creationism by attempting to reduce evolutionary biology to a mere "Darwinian concept" is against Wikipedia policy. See also WP:WEIGHT, WP:FRINGE & WP:PSEUDOSCIENCE. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:00, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
Before loading up the 'Creationist apologetics' section with every creationist argument in objections to evolution (and particularly ones not contained in current sources), I would remind editors that the more of this material that is added, the greater the imperative will be to give WP:DUE weight to the majority scientific viewpoint, which is that these arguments are wholly without merit. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 10:35, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would particularly suggest that editors take note of:
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 11:04, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would further point out that we have whole article (e.g. Objections to evolution, Flood geology, Creation geophysics & Creationist cosmologies) dealing specifically with creationist claims. Repeating them (and their scientific rebuttals) here would not appear to be productive. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 12:27, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 13:30, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I would also point out that this section is badly in need of WP:SECONDARY sources, being cited (almost?) exclusively to primary sources. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 13:56, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:39, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Again... and I quote "[Darwinism]] is also used neutrally within the scientific community to distinguish modern evolutionary theories from those first proposed by Darwin, as well as by historians to differentiate it from other evolutionary theories from around the same period. For example, Darwinism may be used to refer to Darwin's proposed mechanism of natural selection, in comparison to more recent mechanisms such as genetic drift and gene flow." If you are stating that there is only one model, then what is this "modern evolutionary theories" (plural)? While the term evolution is used scientifically to mean one thing, colloquially it can mean different things. I simply think it would be well to make it clear. I am not going to continue to debate on the rest, simply put I disagree, but it isn't important if there is a compromise on the point above and am a little tired of belaboring what should be an otherwise simple process. Also, if you want to make the point of what the Catholic Church believes, I suggest you read the Pope Benedict XVI and today section in which those views are "some theory of evolution" which is to say, not necessarily your preferred theory of evolution... the views within the Catholic Church are not entirely one sided as is true of every group. Gingabox ( talk) 18:28, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 18:42, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
How about they "reject naturalistic views of the origins of life"? Or something akin to that, because that is really what is at issue, not evolution in and of itself. The point of contention is typically life from non-life via natural mechanistic process which is not relegated to evolutionary biology. Gingabox ( talk) 00:09, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC) Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 04:36, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Also, please read the Creationism article which clearly states "In contrast to the strict creationists, evolutionary creationists maintain that, although evolution accounts for the nature of the biosphere, evolution itself is cosmologically attributable to a Creator deity." and reference the notion with - "See, e.g., Corey MA (1993). "Making sense of the 'coincidences'". In MA Corey, God and the new cosmology: The anthropic design argument (pp. 157-174). Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield." Is that sufficient to end the argument that all creationists do this or that? Gingabox ( talk) 06:04, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 06:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
While debating is all well and good, I would appreciate if we could stop debating and start finding a way to work on the text of the article, which was the initial point. As of yet, you have not made any suggestion other than "...reject the scientific theory of evolution..." Which again is not true for all creationists as I have made abundantly clear. Your arguments have thus far been to show that you are not willing to express the idea in a neutral tone. Should we turn it over to WP:DRR or compromise?
Here is yet another suggestion for your consideration: Within Creationism, there are at least two camps. Examples of these are Strict Creationism and Evolutionary Creationism. While SC rejects the scientific theory of evolution, ECs view evolution as a tool which God used to create and shape life. EC differs from Theistic Evolution in that they view God as being more intimately involved than do most TEs. Then cite the source: [2 on the Theistic evolution page] Evolution Vs. Creationism, Eugenie Scott, Niles Eldredge, p62-63 and add a scientific counter-view if you feel it necessary. Is that fair? Gingabox ( talk) 08:20, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
You have not provided a single shred of evidence why my favoured "disagree with the scientific theory of evolution" is an inaccurate or misleading representation of creationist views. Nor have you provided any evidence contesting my rebuttal of your proposals. If you want the debates to stop, then either put up evidence (not mere argument by assertion) or stop debating. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 09:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I have time and again provided evidence, your refusal of said evidence does not negate that it has been provided. Here is yet another: Both Ronald Fisher (1890–1962) and Theodosius Dobzhansky (1900–1975), were Christians and architects of the modern evolutionary synthesis. Dobzhansky, writes in Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution: "I am a creationist and an evolutionist." So, if you are saying that two of the architects of the MES who consider that one can be a creationist and evolutionist as invalid evidence, then I simply have nothing left to say here as you are blatantly disregarding any such proof. Gingabox ( talk) 10:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Submitted to Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal for informal mediation. Please work with me on a way to word the statement that is not offensive to those who consider themselves creationists that do not disagree with "the scientific theory of evolution." I have no problem with stating that Christian apologists view the science in one way, while scientists view it the other, but I would appreciate if you do not want it completely one sided (i.e. "...disagree with the scientific theory of evolution. Science has found ways to explain...") Gingabox ( talk) 12:30, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
First of all I have to mention that I am agnostic and aren't a big friend of Catholicism and Evangelists. Still the phrase "Christian apologetics" sounds very judgmental to me. Shouldn't a Wikipedia-article use the name they give themselves as name of the article? Jschoder ( talk) 17:50, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
The comment above reinforces the objection raised by the choice of language used: 'they' and 'themselves'. I note that it doesn't say "It is the name we've chosen for ourselves". The premise of the article suggests that Christianity is something to be apologized for. Perhaps the meaning of the word apologetics has changed over the centuries, but in modern parlance it certainly casts a negative light on the topic right from the title on down, and indeed reflects the anti-Christian bias of the author. G.K. Chesterton talks about what Christianity is, and what it isn't; there wasn't a scrap of apology in him. Others may call him an apologist, but they would be wrong. He simply called himself "Christian". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.191.109.6 ( talk) 05:36, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
I think that the confusion here is over the fact that the word 'apologetics' sounds similar to and is based on the same roots as the word 'apology'. 'Apology' connotes regret or remorse. The etymology of the words suggests that the original meaning of the roots did not have this connotation. [1] [2] -- 20:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjwgarner ( talk • contribs)
References
As others have said, you are ignorant of Greek/Latin and are defining terms that are thousands of years old by their current usage. 'apology' is originally from Greek and doesn't mean to express sorrow but is rather a defense against critics. http://logeion.uchicago.edu/index.html#ἀπολογία Science, religion, politicians, etc. all engage in "apologetics" although they don't usually use the term. The use in Christianity is traditional, ignoring the semantic shift with the word "apology" in 21st century widespread-ignorance-of-Greek-and-Latin roots English. If you had studied Latin and Greek, you wouldn't have been ignorant of this. I blame the modern education system, not you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.88.94.122 ( talk) 20:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
It should be remembered that unlike (Christian) creationism (which is pervasively Christian apologetics), not all (Christian) Theistic Evolution/Evolutionary Creation writing is defending Christianity against other worldviews -- a lot of it is defending science against creationism. Most probably most TE writers do both, but care needs to be taken to place emphasis on the former in the context of this article (unlike Theistic Evolution, which should cover both aspects). Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 03:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I frequently have recourse to modern scholarship that deals with the Church Fathers as sources for the religious practices of antiquity. These theological efforts to debunk traditional belief systems are more often referred to specifically as "Christian polemic" rather than the broader "Christian apologetics." The term "Christian polemic" is also used for apologetics driven by criticism of Judaism and Islam. Therefore, I've added a sentence explaining the term "Christian polemic" as it relates to the more general term "Christian apologetics," polemic being the mode of apologetics that uses the rhetoric of attack, as indicated by the Latin titles of various patristic treatises using the words contra and adversus. I see a tag requesting a citation, for some reason, for the statement that Tertullian, Jerome, et al. (Augustine is bizarrely omitted) were Christian apologists; some of the Fathers have works specifically titled Apologia, and I'm not sure why this bare statement is subject to challenge. According to WP:V, citations are required for content likely to be challenged. I wonder whether some editors are focused on modern controversies such as evolution to the diminishment of documenting the history of the genre of Christian literature known as "apologetics." I don't think this article is the place for hashing out evolution vs. creationism, or any of the arguments themselves, but rather for describing the genre or mode of discourse. Cynwolfe ( talk) 15:50, 8 April 2011 (UTC)
Removed the disputed text as polemics isn't a branch of apologetics and contrary to the definition of apologetics in the article (out of scope). — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSci ( talk • contribs) 04:52, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
[Moved from User talk:Hrafn ] I noticed you had removed the update that I made concerning the debate between old earth and young earth creationists. The reason why I added this paragraph was to explain that though there is a debate with the creationist community over how they believe God made creation, they do not debate on whether or not God created everything. I provided links and footnotes as verification, while showing a similarity in the Christian apologetic community with that of the naturalist community that differing opinions do not necessarily mean differing stances. My fear is that currently, while reading the Creationist Apologetics subcategory, the implication stands that there are two camps that completely disagree on this issue and thus the entirety of the Christian Creationist Apologetic, even if there is truth in one of those camps, is not to be taken seriously because it is seems to imply that both camps are in a strong disagreement with little common ground. My paragraph was intended to show that in most, if not all of the other issues the two camps are united but that this is just one point of disagreement, and that as with any science this can be healthy to discuss.
Is it then wrong to demonstrate the unity of the camps on most issues and the common thread between the two so as not to make it sound like they are from two completely different views? I am not trying to further an agenda, but rather explain this issue accurately so that the issue can be seriously discussed. If it is okay to add this information, how can I word it in such a way that it does not sound like I am not doing original research? Also, what other sources or information would I need to add to make this more credible? I have quotes from apologists such as Hank Hanegraaff concerning the debate between the two camps and that Christians should not divide over the issue but rather discuss it to come closer to truth. If that would help, I would gladly add it.
I am new to editing Wikipedia and feel I have a lot to contribute to this website. That said, I also have a lot to learn. Seeing as that you have edited several works in the past on this site, I want your input and want to work with you and with others on this site to help make it all that it can and should be. Thanks again for your time and patience, and I look forward to working with you and the rest of the Wikipedia community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FRHolmes86 ( talk • contribs) 16:52, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
Just glanced over the Scientific Apologetics section and it seems misnamed. It's not talking about science but evolution. I'm not aware of any scientists YEC, OEC, whatever, claiming there to be a conflict, it's about how, or whether, to reconcile the Bible and evolution. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.25.1.208 ( talk) 03:17, 29 June 2011 (UTC)
Could somebody please explain to me how the Sproul quote relates to the rest of the 'Biblical motivation section -- he appears to neither be discussing a biblical basis for the motivation to engage in apologetics (rather he is talking about a motivation to defend the scripture) and is not discussing any of the quoted biblical viewpoint given in the rest of the section. Hrafn Talk Stalk( P) 17:30, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to be doing a source clean up here in a few days to get rid of the style template that someone just tagged this with. Do we really need a long list if we have a link to a wikipedia article that contains the same list? Does anyone have a problem with me weeding that list down a bit, maybe to just general / intro apologetics resources?
What say you? ReformedArsenal ( talk) 04:52, 5 May 2012 (UTC)
I tweaked the following to be much more mathematically accurate: Young Earth Creationists believe that Earth is ~6,000 years-old... Science: this Universe is 13.75 billion-years-old & Earth is 4.55 billion-years-old. - Brad Watson, Miami 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 15:10, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
Because of the nature of this article immediately pertaining to theological debate, it would seem that links to other articles such as Criticisms of Christianity, Origin theories of Christianity, Atheistic apologetics, and similar would be in order. Were I more familiar with wikimarkup I would do so myself, because of the trivial difficulty of the addition; as is, I am left to call on a more experienced editor to add this section. 66.233.132.60 ( talk) 18:17, 12 August 2012 (UTC)
¬¬¬¬whoever is deleting my reference to rational wiki please stop or I will report you to the wiki admin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7D:561E:FA00:952:A639:3F33:C0F7 ( talk) 21:08, 24 February 2016 (UTC)
Polemics is not a part of Christian theology, though some have used it as a pejorative reference to apologetics. This also appears to have been added despite opposition and a lack of consensus. Propose to remove the following:
Christian polemics is a branch of apologetics advocating for the correctness of the Christian belief system, while discrediting every other contradictory belief system.[5][6]
01:58, 20 September 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by KSci ( talk • contribs)
Article relies on very bad sources mostly. Neutral third party sources should be sought and to rely as little as possible on Christian Apologists themselves. The third party sources then dictate which apologetic arguments and writers are notable and relevant, rather than just finding random apologetists themselves as sources. And more reliance on high quality academic books. Also dictionary sources are to be avoided if possible.
Article generally needs to have much of it re-written. -- Harizotoh9 ( talk) 22:44, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
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I think the current lede sentence sourced to Catholic encyclopedia is quite misleading: a branch of Christian theology that defends Christianity against objections
, if the article is to cover polemics. I think this describes the modern Christian apologetic faith literature, which contains discussion like But what of the Church herself, she who has preserved the truths revealed and enacted by Christ
[1] However, based on scholarly sources, the apologetic writers engaged in a considerable amount of polemic (especially against Jews and Muslims).
[2]
[3]
[4]
And would we deal with anti-Christian polemic like this briefly in this article for balance? (The details would have to go in a separate article.) [5]
References
Why do priests father William Dalton jr ( talk) 14:04, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
Here's the first paragraph of the "Varieties" section as it stands:
"There are a variety of Christian apologetic styles and schools of thought. The major types of Christian apologetics include historical and legal evidentialist apologetics, presuppositional apologetics, philosophical apologetics, prophetic apologetics, doctrinal apologetics, biblical apologetics, moral apologetics, and scientific apologetics."
As far as I can tell, this classification was pulled out of thin air. There is no reputable, authoritative source cited that uses this classification. It just sounds like someone listed as many different types of Christian apologetics as they could think of off the top of their head.
Moreover, it is what logicians call a cross-classification: Some of the categories listed belong underneath one another rather than as separate categories. For example, moral apologetics is obviously a sub-category of philosophical apologetics rather than a coordinate genus, as illustrated by the fact that the moral argument is repeated in the section on philosophical apologetics. In addition, many practitioners of philosophical apologetics include historical and scientific arguments as an integral part of their case, and historical and scientific arguments for Christianity are virtually always made in conjunction with philosophical reasoning.
This entire section should be reorganized. The first step would be to find a source like the book "Five Views of Apologetics" and use that as an authoritative basis for classification, with (probably) a miscellaneous section at the end for arguments that don't fit neatly into any of the indicated categories. Torin11 ( talk) 15:35, 23 December 2019 (UTC)
First off, is it "Christian apologetic" or "Christian apologist"?
Generally it refers to "someone who defends the Christianity". So would that mean only people who engage in debate? Asherkobin ( talk) 00:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC)