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Childhood nudity article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
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The main article on Nudity is large, which I have been working to remedy by splitting out content worthy of its own article. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 03:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Aréat:: Your replacement of an image of a Mary Cassatt painting with one by a relatively unknown painter warrants some discussion. I chose the Cassatt to illustrate the section on Depictions as representative of mainstream culture at the end of the 19th century, that a naked child in a domestic context had nothing but positive connotations. The Emil Axel Krause painting from 1910 cannot be read so easily. The painting of children is atypical in including nude girls among the boys. The children are also closer to puberty than the toddler in the Cassatt. Perhaps this scene was a normal occurrence in Denmark in 1910, and also represents innocence, an impression reinforced by the calm presence of the woman. Given the detailed style, it may have been painted using photographic references. Unlike the Cassatt, any such meaning would be conjecture, there being no scholarly references regarding the painter or the work. Rather than being one of two images, perhaps there needs to be a gallery of several images to illustrate the section. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 04:11, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
I am aware of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_disclaimers but wanted to mention that something which should be considered is the legal climate facing lgbtq people in many places, including the US where Wikipedia is hosted. Although the images in this article are arguably legal, their presence in someone's browser cache potentially create a huge legal risk for them if they are lgbtq due to all the "groomer" bullshit coming from numerous pundits with influence over politics and regulatory enforcement. Although Wikipedia stays out of politics, and it is probably not legally liable, would it make sense to consider the legal risks that a user could be subject to for researching topics around human cultural norms and childhood development? I am not proposing censorship, but wondering about a disclaimer about the images and the possibility of putting them into a separate article, to avoid the browser cache issue. I was actually trying to do some research on this topic to increase my own understanding of differing cultural norms around childhood development and was shocked with the number of real photographs in this article. (Also, Wikipedia may need to be on the lookout for images like this becoming actually illegal or otherwise restricted due to overreactionary politics?) os ( talk) 14:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
This article already notes in the "Depictions" section the issue of false allegations of abuse resulting from innocent photos being flagged and brought to the attention of authorities. The section on "Moral panic" also notes that the perceived threat of child sexual abuse is a moral panic, the prevalence of CSAM not being supported by evidence, as the Tutanota article states. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by limiting the invasion of privacy and violation of civil rights represented by automated scanning of private information; and ending biased prosecution of LBGTQ individuals if that exists, not by self-censorship either by parents or organizations such as WP. The social science research points to the benefits of normal, non-sexual nudity in healthy human development, and the recognition of public depictions of that nudity being part of a healthy culture. The alternative is the suppression of normal sexuality, which is the cause of actual cases of child abuse.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 13:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
I normally assume good faith, but this feels to me entirely like "concern trolling." - Jmabel | Talk 02:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Apparently, the source cited at the beginning of the History section is incorrect, so I have hidden the text until I do some research to find the correct citation. As the only reference to the post-classical, it is not essential and could be omitted. Since @ TechnoSquirrel69: did not make a talk page entry to match the maintenance tag for the entire article, I can only speculate whether this was the only issue. The NPOV template guideline states:
The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor.
I will do so now. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 20:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
The articles I contribute to do not seem to attract collaboration." I feel you on that one. However, like I said above, I didn't provide those examples to be a comprehensive list, but only to paint my argument for the article's NPOV issues in broad strokes. With that in mind, I don't think it would be that productive to counter each of your responses individually. I leave it up to your editorial discretion to make choices about the details of the phrasing. I will say on the usage of Wikipedia's voice that the examples I mentioned are controversial statements. It would be uncontroversial to simply report some fact — say, the number of countries that have legislation about the distribution of nude photos — but it is not uncontroversial to report a statement made by a single scholar about Western cultural norms as if it were fact. — TechnoSquirrel69 ( sigh) 02:41, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
I do appreciate that your comments have pointed me in the direction of making the article better, but since it has been a week without further comment, I am inclined to declare this discussion dormant, and remove or change the maintenance tag to "Globalize", which has actually been the issue, not neutrality. Unforunately the topic is literally unmentionable in many societies, but I will continue to seek reliable sources.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 02:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Childhood nudity article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
Wikipedia is not censored. Images or details contained within this article may be graphic or otherwise objectionable to some readers, to ensure a quality article and complete coverage of its subject matter. For more information, please refer to Wikipedia's content disclaimer regarding potentially objectionable content and options to not see an image. |
The main article on Nudity is large, which I have been working to remedy by splitting out content worthy of its own article. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 03:44, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
@ Aréat:: Your replacement of an image of a Mary Cassatt painting with one by a relatively unknown painter warrants some discussion. I chose the Cassatt to illustrate the section on Depictions as representative of mainstream culture at the end of the 19th century, that a naked child in a domestic context had nothing but positive connotations. The Emil Axel Krause painting from 1910 cannot be read so easily. The painting of children is atypical in including nude girls among the boys. The children are also closer to puberty than the toddler in the Cassatt. Perhaps this scene was a normal occurrence in Denmark in 1910, and also represents innocence, an impression reinforced by the calm presence of the woman. Given the detailed style, it may have been painted using photographic references. Unlike the Cassatt, any such meaning would be conjecture, there being no scholarly references regarding the painter or the work. Rather than being one of two images, perhaps there needs to be a gallery of several images to illustrate the section. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 04:11, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
I am aware of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_disclaimers but wanted to mention that something which should be considered is the legal climate facing lgbtq people in many places, including the US where Wikipedia is hosted. Although the images in this article are arguably legal, their presence in someone's browser cache potentially create a huge legal risk for them if they are lgbtq due to all the "groomer" bullshit coming from numerous pundits with influence over politics and regulatory enforcement. Although Wikipedia stays out of politics, and it is probably not legally liable, would it make sense to consider the legal risks that a user could be subject to for researching topics around human cultural norms and childhood development? I am not proposing censorship, but wondering about a disclaimer about the images and the possibility of putting them into a separate article, to avoid the browser cache issue. I was actually trying to do some research on this topic to increase my own understanding of differing cultural norms around childhood development and was shocked with the number of real photographs in this article. (Also, Wikipedia may need to be on the lookout for images like this becoming actually illegal or otherwise restricted due to overreactionary politics?) os ( talk) 14:49, 3 July 2023 (UTC)
This article already notes in the "Depictions" section the issue of false allegations of abuse resulting from innocent photos being flagged and brought to the attention of authorities. The section on "Moral panic" also notes that the perceived threat of child sexual abuse is a moral panic, the prevalence of CSAM not being supported by evidence, as the Tutanota article states. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by limiting the invasion of privacy and violation of civil rights represented by automated scanning of private information; and ending biased prosecution of LBGTQ individuals if that exists, not by self-censorship either by parents or organizations such as WP. The social science research points to the benefits of normal, non-sexual nudity in healthy human development, and the recognition of public depictions of that nudity being part of a healthy culture. The alternative is the suppression of normal sexuality, which is the cause of actual cases of child abuse.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 13:27, 4 July 2023 (UTC)
I normally assume good faith, but this feels to me entirely like "concern trolling." - Jmabel | Talk 02:38, 5 July 2023 (UTC)
Apparently, the source cited at the beginning of the History section is incorrect, so I have hidden the text until I do some research to find the correct citation. As the only reference to the post-classical, it is not essential and could be omitted. Since @ TechnoSquirrel69: did not make a talk page entry to match the maintenance tag for the entire article, I can only speculate whether this was the only issue. The NPOV template guideline states:
The editor who adds the tag should discuss concerns on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies. In the absence of such a discussion, or where it remains unclear what the NPOV violation is, the tag may be removed by any editor.
I will do so now. WriterArtistDC ( talk) 20:38, 14 October 2023 (UTC)
The articles I contribute to do not seem to attract collaboration." I feel you on that one. However, like I said above, I didn't provide those examples to be a comprehensive list, but only to paint my argument for the article's NPOV issues in broad strokes. With that in mind, I don't think it would be that productive to counter each of your responses individually. I leave it up to your editorial discretion to make choices about the details of the phrasing. I will say on the usage of Wikipedia's voice that the examples I mentioned are controversial statements. It would be uncontroversial to simply report some fact — say, the number of countries that have legislation about the distribution of nude photos — but it is not uncontroversial to report a statement made by a single scholar about Western cultural norms as if it were fact. — TechnoSquirrel69 ( sigh) 02:41, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
I do appreciate that your comments have pointed me in the direction of making the article better, but since it has been a week without further comment, I am inclined to declare this discussion dormant, and remove or change the maintenance tag to "Globalize", which has actually been the issue, not neutrality. Unforunately the topic is literally unmentionable in many societies, but I will continue to seek reliable sources.-- WriterArtistDC ( talk) 02:20, 25 October 2023 (UTC)