This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Charles XI of Sweden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Charles XI of Sweden has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on February 13, 2013, February 13, 2019, and February 13, 2021. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
Removed: "His cruelty earned him the name of Charles the Peoplemurderer in Scania." What is the source of this statement, which I never have heard of? Den fjättrade ankan 23:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "Charles XI was however very harsh to the local population of occupied Scania, only 20 years earlier a Danish heartland, and in his diary it can be read that he had plans on deporting the population to Balticum." What is the source of this statement? Den fjättrade ankan 23:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
The statement has been reinserted, only high swedes from Stockholm or other northern parts try to deny the true history of Charles XI, the man hailed wrongfully as a hero up north is most certainly not down south, last evidence of this statement is the Scanian objections to the Swedish 500kr bill which had Charles XI's picture portrayed, calling him ' Charles Peoplemurderer'
Gentlemen, I do not believe "peoplemurderer" is a proper English word. I have failed to find it in any dictionary I own. The English word for "folkmord" is "genocide". Presumably, you can indicate the person making it by calling him "genocider". Concerning Charles XI's treatment of rebels supporting the Danish king in Nothern Skåne, he acted with very harsh, even terroristic counter-guerilla methods (such as holding entire villages responsible for acts of rebels in the vicinity and executing captured rebels in cruel ways). However, as far as I can make out this was entirely within the conventions of warfare at that time. As far as Charles XI was concerned, nominally Swedish people working for the Danish king were rebels and traitors and did not even enjoy the limited right granted to prisoners of war at that time. Most monarchs of this era facing a peasant rebellion would have used methods fairly similar to the ones used by Charles XI during the Danish war. -Sensemaker
Long ago in various UseNet threads a few people came forward with the information that this king had sponsored an effort to domesticate moose for military use, presumably as attack cavalry - with sharpened horns, good for pack burdens, and potentially aggressive in the field; also twice the size of a war horse). Apparently they turned out to be useful for messengers only, and the project fell through because there weren't enough of them, and they're hard to breed in captivity...and according to the trivia section of the Moose article there were worries that they'd allow thieves and other criminals to outrun law enforcement types using only horses. Does anyone here know where a cite or further details for this would be found? Skookum1 02:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I am going to review this article. Kensplanet ( talk) 17:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Checkout the Good article criteria here.
(1). Well written:
1 (a). the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
1 (b). it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.
(2). Factually accurate and verifiable:
2 (a). it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;
2 (b). at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and
2 (c). it contains no original research.
(3). Broad in its coverage:
3 (a). it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
3 (b). it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail
(4). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
(5). Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
(6). Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6 (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
6 (b). images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions
Comments
LEAD
I think the article satisfies good article criteria. The article will have to be more comprehensive for FA status. Good work for GA. I'll gladly promote this article. Thanks, Kensplanet ( talk) 06:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
There should be a least something in the article about the fact that he was deply devoted to his mother his entire life: this was the reason to why his wife was put below his mother at court. It need only be one sentence. And here is one anecdote: During his first appearances in parliament, he talked only to the members of the government through her; he would whisper the questions he had to the parliament to her, and she would ask them loud and clear. reference: * Herman Lindqvist, Historien om Sverige: Storhet och Fall (History of Sweden; Greatness and fall) (in Swedish) This is a charming anecdote, which gives a personal and authentic feeling to it!-- 85.226.44.74 ( talk) 15:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I find it odd that a lengthy article about Karl XI has no mention whatsoever about the ethnic cleansing that was executed by Karl during the Scanian Wars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 ( talk) 18:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I had tightened up a paragraph about this king's numeral (XI) and removed such peacock/exaggerated words as "highly" and an irrelevant king's name and an unprecise term "in the line", and Swenglish such as "took their numbers" etc. This was reversed today with this summary: (Rv. Some of the early Swedish kings that carried names later kings also do are semi-mythological at best, that is). I have no idea what that means. Am reverting back to what I did on the 9th and ask that any further revisions of these details be explained clearly here. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There's no mention of Sweden entering the Triple Alliance during Charles' reign. It happened during the regency of Hedvig Eleonora but Hedvig's article doesn't mention it either.
Top.Squark ( talk) 18:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
On the map it states Finland 1581. The treaty of Nöteborg is from 1323 when the border zone was demarcated from the Karelian Isthmus to the Gulf of Bothnia. In treaty of Teusina 1595, Sweden incorporated the modern day North-Savo, Kainuu, Northern Ostrobotnia, and the rest of Lapland. The map seems to be at least from a Finnish point of view severly out of place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.64.5.173 ( talk) 07:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Charles XI of Sweden. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Charles XI of Sweden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:54, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
The incorruptibility of corpes of Christian saints originated some centuries before the Middle Age. This free article testifies it was a living belief even in the 18th-century Protestant Sweden. Subject of king Charles XI asked themselves why their sovereign had been recognized in a physiological state opposite to the one pertaining Christian saints. 1719 was the year of the crisis of European absolutism.
If it seems not to be an useful end of the WP article, then the section can be eventually moved to the previous paragraph related to the king's death.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Discussion was extensive and at times below the standards one should expect of a collegiate discussion, and there was far too much repetition and IDHT - Born2Cycle was not the only one engaging in this but they are the worst offender.
There was no disagreement that the proposed titles were more concise, but there was disagreement on how much weight it was appropriate to give that relative to other policy considerations such as recognisability and consistency. Ultimately both sides were equally well supported by policy (despite some assertions to the contrary by very involved editors) and reference to other reliable sources and neither convinced the other nor had an overwhelming majority of supporters so there is no option to me other than to call this no consensus.
I'm sure this will please neither side, and I will not be in the least bit surprised if this is taken to move review (in exactly the same way a close of "moved" or "not moved" would be) so if anyone feels like that would be beneficial just take it straight there without waiting for me to respond on my talk page.
Thryduulf (
talk) 17:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Thryduulf (
talk) 17:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
– There are no Charles XIs and Charles XIIs as kings of countries other than Sweden. 176.33.241.125 ( talk) 08:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP ( talk) 14:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
"someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area"; this is reiterated in the WP:CONCISE criterion, which requires that the title be identifiable to someone
"familiar with the general subject area."(Emphasis mine.) As such, the proposed titles fail to meet the criteria. I myself am familiar with, but no expert in, the general subject area and would not have known prior to these discussions that (say) Charles X and Charles XI are monarchs of two entirely different nations. It's worth noting too that Charles X just got moved to Charles X of France. ╠╣uw [ talk 18:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This case seems no different. Charles XI is certainly more concise than Charles XI of Sweden, but removing the clarifier leaves a title that’s insufficiently precise and recognizable. Speaking for myself as someone who’s familiar with (but certainly no expert in) European royalty, I would know the title refers to a monarch but would not know which one. Nor if I see Charles X and Charles XI would I recognize that these are monarchs of entirely different countries — and I don't see that introducing that confusion and uncertainty helps our readers in any way. Further, a quick search suggests the country is indeed often included when referencing the monarch.
Per Wikipedia policy, "the choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists."
I see nothing to suggest that the proposed title does this.
╠╣uw [
talk 16:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
As
you recently said, “often the only way to gain consensus for a guideline change is to establish precedent showing consensus for contradicting the existing guideline at least in some particular cases.”
╠╣uw [
talk 18:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
As the Edward closer notes, "proponents of both viewpoints correctly marshal points of policy in favor of their preference". Some wrongly suggest that there's only one correct understanding of how to weight and apply our WP:CRITERIA or interpret policy, but that's clearly not so, as these discussions make clear. ╠╣uw [ talk 20:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
"more fruitful", they were quite clear why the RM failed, and it was not because of that. Here is the rationale they gave, with my own emphasis added:
"There is a clear absence of consensus for a move at this time. Like the discussion two years ago, there is almost an exactly even split among participants, with proponents of both viewpoints correctly marshalling points of policy in favor of their preference. Throughout this encyclopedia there are instances of English monarchs whose titles include "of England" and monarchs whose titles do not, so it is apparent that both formulations are permissible in appropriate conditions. This, therefore, boils down to a question of preference as to which conditions suffice for this purpose, a question to which this discussion has yielded no clear answer."
That sounds familiar: both in the earlier discussions for Edwards and Richards and Christians, and in this discussion here, neither side is a slam-dunk policy-wise, NCROY notwithstanding. As such, we just have to see if there's a clear consensus for one particular approach over another, and I really don't see that there is. In fact, this discussion seems to be about as split as it's possible to be. That there's so much contentiousness and lack of consensus in the various RMs spawned by the recent change to NCROY strongly suggests to me that the change is not working and needs to be reconsidered (and I see another editor is already working to get that started). ╠╣uw [ talk 12:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
The article title in Britannica is clearly and unambiguously "Charles XI, King of Sweden".For the third time. If that were true then their title for their Clint Eastwood article would be Clint Eastwood AMERICAN ACTOR AND DIRECTOR. But it’s not. The title for that article is Clint Eastwood. And the title for their Charles XI article is Charles XI. Report titles correctly, please. — В²C ☎ 00:59, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Whether here or there, the practice clearly serves a useful purpose, and no one has yet explained how doing away with it would serve the interests of our readers (which per policy is our priority). ╠╣uw [ talk 10:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
You're right that WP's short description serves a very similar purpose, and if we could rely on our readers consistently seeing it then I'd be less opposed... but we can't. If we change the titles of these articles as proposed, the result would be to show no clarifier of any kind for many readers, and I don't see that that serves their interests. ╠╣uw [ talk 14:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
"short descriptions do not appear by default when viewing an article in desktop view, but logged-in users who wish to see and edit them can do so easily by enabling the Shortdesc helper in their Preferences "gadgets".
As such, if we remove the country from the title of this article as proposed, then many users will not get any clarifier at all, be it in the title or via the short description. Since I and others consider that having the clarifier is beneficial for our readers (as apparently Britannica does for theirs), I don't see that removing it is desirable. ╠╣uw [ talk 16:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Exceptions exist for biographical articles. For example, given names and family names are usually not omitted or abbreviated for the purposes of concision. Thus Oprah Winfrey (not Oprah) and Jean-Paul Sartre (not J. P. Sartre). See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people).
strong consensus(to quote the closer). Strong consensus is not the same as unanimity, sure, but it's the best we have on Wikipedia. A !vote against this move is a !vote against that consensus, which boils down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT in the absence of strong policy-based rationale or a good reason to invoke WP:IAR. Rosbif73 ( talk) 12:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
USPLACE is problematic, I think the current NCROY is problematic.
Royalty has no such exception, but that's only because we (wrongly, IMO) changed NCROY back in November. In other words, the situation is as if WP:SINGLENAME were changed to prefer titles like Vasari, Malenkov, Saddam and Gandhi. So the question we should be asking is, why do we have SINGLENAME? What is the basis for preferring first and last names even in cases where one or the other is unambiguous or has a primary topic? Does this reasoning apply in other cases? Srnec ( talk) 21:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Charles XI of Sweden article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Charles XI of Sweden has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on February 13, 2013, February 13, 2019, and February 13, 2021. |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
This article has previously been nominated to be moved.
Discussions:
|
Removed: "His cruelty earned him the name of Charles the Peoplemurderer in Scania." What is the source of this statement, which I never have heard of? Den fjättrade ankan 23:10, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
Removed: "Charles XI was however very harsh to the local population of occupied Scania, only 20 years earlier a Danish heartland, and in his diary it can be read that he had plans on deporting the population to Balticum." What is the source of this statement? Den fjättrade ankan 23:20, 26 May 2004 (UTC)
The statement has been reinserted, only high swedes from Stockholm or other northern parts try to deny the true history of Charles XI, the man hailed wrongfully as a hero up north is most certainly not down south, last evidence of this statement is the Scanian objections to the Swedish 500kr bill which had Charles XI's picture portrayed, calling him ' Charles Peoplemurderer'
Gentlemen, I do not believe "peoplemurderer" is a proper English word. I have failed to find it in any dictionary I own. The English word for "folkmord" is "genocide". Presumably, you can indicate the person making it by calling him "genocider". Concerning Charles XI's treatment of rebels supporting the Danish king in Nothern Skåne, he acted with very harsh, even terroristic counter-guerilla methods (such as holding entire villages responsible for acts of rebels in the vicinity and executing captured rebels in cruel ways). However, as far as I can make out this was entirely within the conventions of warfare at that time. As far as Charles XI was concerned, nominally Swedish people working for the Danish king were rebels and traitors and did not even enjoy the limited right granted to prisoners of war at that time. Most monarchs of this era facing a peasant rebellion would have used methods fairly similar to the ones used by Charles XI during the Danish war. -Sensemaker
Long ago in various UseNet threads a few people came forward with the information that this king had sponsored an effort to domesticate moose for military use, presumably as attack cavalry - with sharpened horns, good for pack burdens, and potentially aggressive in the field; also twice the size of a war horse). Apparently they turned out to be useful for messengers only, and the project fell through because there weren't enough of them, and they're hard to breed in captivity...and according to the trivia section of the Moose article there were worries that they'd allow thieves and other criminals to outrun law enforcement types using only horses. Does anyone here know where a cite or further details for this would be found? Skookum1 02:01, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I am going to review this article. Kensplanet ( talk) 17:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Checkout the Good article criteria here.
(1). Well written:
1 (a). the prose is clear and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
1 (b). it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, jargon, words to avoid, fiction, and list incorporation.
(2). Factually accurate and verifiable:
2 (a). it provides references to all sources of information, and at minimum contains a section dedicated to the attribution of those sources in accordance with the guide to layout;
2 (b). at minimum, it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons; and
2 (c). it contains no original research.
(3). Broad in its coverage:
3 (a). it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
3 (b). it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail
(4). Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias.
(5). Stable: it does not change significantly from day-to-day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
(6). Illustrated, if possible, by images:
6 (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
6 (b). images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions
Comments
LEAD
I think the article satisfies good article criteria. The article will have to be more comprehensive for FA status. Good work for GA. I'll gladly promote this article. Thanks, Kensplanet ( talk) 06:53, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
There should be a least something in the article about the fact that he was deply devoted to his mother his entire life: this was the reason to why his wife was put below his mother at court. It need only be one sentence. And here is one anecdote: During his first appearances in parliament, he talked only to the members of the government through her; he would whisper the questions he had to the parliament to her, and she would ask them loud and clear. reference: * Herman Lindqvist, Historien om Sverige: Storhet och Fall (History of Sweden; Greatness and fall) (in Swedish) This is a charming anecdote, which gives a personal and authentic feeling to it!-- 85.226.44.74 ( talk) 15:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
I find it odd that a lengthy article about Karl XI has no mention whatsoever about the ethnic cleansing that was executed by Karl during the Scanian Wars? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.38.109.246 ( talk) 18:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
I had tightened up a paragraph about this king's numeral (XI) and removed such peacock/exaggerated words as "highly" and an irrelevant king's name and an unprecise term "in the line", and Swenglish such as "took their numbers" etc. This was reversed today with this summary: (Rv. Some of the early Swedish kings that carried names later kings also do are semi-mythological at best, that is). I have no idea what that means. Am reverting back to what I did on the 9th and ask that any further revisions of these details be explained clearly here. SergeWoodzing ( talk) 14:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
There's no mention of Sweden entering the Triple Alliance during Charles' reign. It happened during the regency of Hedvig Eleonora but Hedvig's article doesn't mention it either.
Top.Squark ( talk) 18:12, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
On the map it states Finland 1581. The treaty of Nöteborg is from 1323 when the border zone was demarcated from the Karelian Isthmus to the Gulf of Bothnia. In treaty of Teusina 1595, Sweden incorporated the modern day North-Savo, Kainuu, Northern Ostrobotnia, and the rest of Lapland. The map seems to be at least from a Finnish point of view severly out of place. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.64.5.173 ( talk) 07:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to 2 external links on
Charles XI of Sweden. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:06, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Charles XI of Sweden. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:54, 20 November 2016 (UTC)
The incorruptibility of corpes of Christian saints originated some centuries before the Middle Age. This free article testifies it was a living belief even in the 18th-century Protestant Sweden. Subject of king Charles XI asked themselves why their sovereign had been recognized in a physiological state opposite to the one pertaining Christian saints. 1719 was the year of the crisis of European absolutism.
If it seems not to be an useful end of the WP article, then the section can be eventually moved to the previous paragraph related to the king's death.
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 01:47, 3 September 2023 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. Discussion was extensive and at times below the standards one should expect of a collegiate discussion, and there was far too much repetition and IDHT - Born2Cycle was not the only one engaging in this but they are the worst offender.
There was no disagreement that the proposed titles were more concise, but there was disagreement on how much weight it was appropriate to give that relative to other policy considerations such as recognisability and consistency. Ultimately both sides were equally well supported by policy (despite some assertions to the contrary by very involved editors) and reference to other reliable sources and neither convinced the other nor had an overwhelming majority of supporters so there is no option to me other than to call this no consensus.
I'm sure this will please neither side, and I will not be in the least bit surprised if this is taken to move review (in exactly the same way a close of "moved" or "not moved" would be) so if anyone feels like that would be beneficial just take it straight there without waiting for me to respond on my talk page.
Thryduulf (
talk) 17:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Thryduulf (
talk) 17:00, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
– There are no Charles XIs and Charles XIIs as kings of countries other than Sweden. 176.33.241.125 ( talk) 08:19, 13 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP ( talk) 14:32, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
"someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area"; this is reiterated in the WP:CONCISE criterion, which requires that the title be identifiable to someone
"familiar with the general subject area."(Emphasis mine.) As such, the proposed titles fail to meet the criteria. I myself am familiar with, but no expert in, the general subject area and would not have known prior to these discussions that (say) Charles X and Charles XI are monarchs of two entirely different nations. It's worth noting too that Charles X just got moved to Charles X of France. ╠╣uw [ talk 18:04, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
This case seems no different. Charles XI is certainly more concise than Charles XI of Sweden, but removing the clarifier leaves a title that’s insufficiently precise and recognizable. Speaking for myself as someone who’s familiar with (but certainly no expert in) European royalty, I would know the title refers to a monarch but would not know which one. Nor if I see Charles X and Charles XI would I recognize that these are monarchs of entirely different countries — and I don't see that introducing that confusion and uncertainty helps our readers in any way. Further, a quick search suggests the country is indeed often included when referencing the monarch.
Per Wikipedia policy, "the choice of article titles should put the interests of readers before those of editors, and those of a general audience before those of specialists."
I see nothing to suggest that the proposed title does this.
╠╣uw [
talk 16:16, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
As
you recently said, “often the only way to gain consensus for a guideline change is to establish precedent showing consensus for contradicting the existing guideline at least in some particular cases.”
╠╣uw [
talk 18:56, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
As the Edward closer notes, "proponents of both viewpoints correctly marshal points of policy in favor of their preference". Some wrongly suggest that there's only one correct understanding of how to weight and apply our WP:CRITERIA or interpret policy, but that's clearly not so, as these discussions make clear. ╠╣uw [ talk 20:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
"more fruitful", they were quite clear why the RM failed, and it was not because of that. Here is the rationale they gave, with my own emphasis added:
"There is a clear absence of consensus for a move at this time. Like the discussion two years ago, there is almost an exactly even split among participants, with proponents of both viewpoints correctly marshalling points of policy in favor of their preference. Throughout this encyclopedia there are instances of English monarchs whose titles include "of England" and monarchs whose titles do not, so it is apparent that both formulations are permissible in appropriate conditions. This, therefore, boils down to a question of preference as to which conditions suffice for this purpose, a question to which this discussion has yielded no clear answer."
That sounds familiar: both in the earlier discussions for Edwards and Richards and Christians, and in this discussion here, neither side is a slam-dunk policy-wise, NCROY notwithstanding. As such, we just have to see if there's a clear consensus for one particular approach over another, and I really don't see that there is. In fact, this discussion seems to be about as split as it's possible to be. That there's so much contentiousness and lack of consensus in the various RMs spawned by the recent change to NCROY strongly suggests to me that the change is not working and needs to be reconsidered (and I see another editor is already working to get that started). ╠╣uw [ talk 12:21, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
The article title in Britannica is clearly and unambiguously "Charles XI, King of Sweden".For the third time. If that were true then their title for their Clint Eastwood article would be Clint Eastwood AMERICAN ACTOR AND DIRECTOR. But it’s not. The title for that article is Clint Eastwood. And the title for their Charles XI article is Charles XI. Report titles correctly, please. — В²C ☎ 00:59, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
Whether here or there, the practice clearly serves a useful purpose, and no one has yet explained how doing away with it would serve the interests of our readers (which per policy is our priority). ╠╣uw [ talk 10:34, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
You're right that WP's short description serves a very similar purpose, and if we could rely on our readers consistently seeing it then I'd be less opposed... but we can't. If we change the titles of these articles as proposed, the result would be to show no clarifier of any kind for many readers, and I don't see that that serves their interests. ╠╣uw [ talk 14:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
"short descriptions do not appear by default when viewing an article in desktop view, but logged-in users who wish to see and edit them can do so easily by enabling the Shortdesc helper in their Preferences "gadgets".
As such, if we remove the country from the title of this article as proposed, then many users will not get any clarifier at all, be it in the title or via the short description. Since I and others consider that having the clarifier is beneficial for our readers (as apparently Britannica does for theirs), I don't see that removing it is desirable. ╠╣uw [ talk 16:17, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
Exceptions exist for biographical articles. For example, given names and family names are usually not omitted or abbreviated for the purposes of concision. Thus Oprah Winfrey (not Oprah) and Jean-Paul Sartre (not J. P. Sartre). See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people).
strong consensus(to quote the closer). Strong consensus is not the same as unanimity, sure, but it's the best we have on Wikipedia. A !vote against this move is a !vote against that consensus, which boils down to WP:IDONTLIKEIT in the absence of strong policy-based rationale or a good reason to invoke WP:IAR. Rosbif73 ( talk) 12:42, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
USPLACE is problematic, I think the current NCROY is problematic.
Royalty has no such exception, but that's only because we (wrongly, IMO) changed NCROY back in November. In other words, the situation is as if WP:SINGLENAME were changed to prefer titles like Vasari, Malenkov, Saddam and Gandhi. So the question we should be asking is, why do we have SINGLENAME? What is the basis for preferring first and last names even in cases where one or the other is unambiguous or has a primary topic? Does this reasoning apply in other cases? Srnec ( talk) 21:17, 13 February 2024 (UTC)