This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
After I write this, I am going to remove the AL info, because it is just a bit of trivia that is unnecessary to the CD article. If there was any other connection between the two men it might be worth mentioning. Before he adds it again, I think that User:Vfp15 should explain thinks that it is so necessary to keep adding it back into the article. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 06:38, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have inserted a reference to the Simpsons under trivia as a protest against the ridiculousness of having such a section-- XmarkX 07:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have once again removed this completely irrelevant digression from the article. It can be removed because it simply adds nothing to our knowledge of Charles Darwin to the article. It is an irrelevant piece of trivia that has no place here. Vincent - you have added this to the article now on at least 17 different occasions, and each time it is subsequently removed. It is removed for a very good reason. Please finally give up and respect the consensus here. I will personally remove it every single time I see it creaping up.
Why are you so obsessed with such a small and trivial point, anyway? I cannot believe we are having an edit war over this. Aaarrrggh 11:42, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I wandered in from RfC and read this section, and I recommend... no Abraham Lincoln. If Darwin was unusually interested in fortuitous occurrences (and there are several examples, enough to show it was a definite personality trait of his), and if there's evidence (not just "One can imagine him saying....") that he knew and commented on this one, then it would be OK to add a reference to this quirk of his personality, illustrating it by saying, "For example, he commented in a letter to Lord Drunkensot that he had been born on the same day as Abraham Lincoln." Otherwise, sorry, it's just not an interesting coincidence. JamesMLane 03:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I just went to Google, that great Wiki arbiter, and found that a search on "Charles Darwin" "Abraham Lincoln" and "birthday" yields over 4000 results. (Can't wait for the flames that are going to follow this comment...) Vincent 05:18, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A summary of my argument follows.
1. The AL/CD birthday coincidence is factual.
2. It is a vivid time marker.
3. Coincidences are especially relevant to Darwin's thought, so it's good style to put one here.
4. There are examples in published popular science writing of pointing out this coincidence and one column in Scientific American devoted to coincidental relationships (Connections I think it's called). This is not an appeal to authority, it is justification by precedent.
5. I have been open to consensus, accepting the "Trivia list" solution (which I didn't much like BTW). I reinserted the coincidence AFTER the trivia list was deleted.
6. It is culturally significant. Google backs up the relevance of the shared AL & CD birthday with over
4000 results, while it only yields
14 results for the same search on, as FastFission suggested, Junichiro Koizumi (current Prime Minister of Japan), Stephen Hawking, and birthday.
Actually, I reinserted it before, then noticed the trivia list including the coincidence, so deleted the coincidence from the "Early Life" section myself.
I suppose this is sarcastic, but a summary of the other side's argument goes like this.
1. It's irrelevant.
2. It's IRRELEVANT!
3. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT!
4. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT.!!!
5. AAAAARGH, IT'S IRRELEVANT!!!!!
Finally, one of my edits was reverted (the Darwin losing his faith bit) by Aargh and replaced with a false story. (I admit and appreciate that this was also changed back by someone else, and improved in the process.)
As for the editors reverting me, well what can I say? Listen to you guys! One interesting little line of 10 words and you are pilloring me rather than letting it go. Arguments (I mean real arguments, not fights) are never resolved except in court. You guys are just as guilty (ha! guiltier!) as I am of flippant reversions.
I want an arbitration on this, and in the mean time, I insist the fact be included, either in the "Early Life" section or in a Trivia section. You guys decide where.
Vincent 09:52, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For the record, I put it on RfC last night only because it did not seem that this discussion was really making any progress, and this seemed like an ideal place for outside commentary (one user with some sort of axe to grind in a revert war against everybody else). Vfp15, I think it's a really silly thing to waste everybody's time just because you want to insert your coincidence into the article. The article is perfectly fine without it, its merits are contested to say the least, and you are looking a bit obsessive in your insistence. Even if you think it is perfectly germane (and you seem to be about the only one who does), this is not a fact which warrants obsessive and rude behavior to insist its inclusion. It's trivia. It is trivial. Move on, already. -- Fastfission 14:41, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Vinncent contacted me (not sure where he got my name from to contact) and asked me to comment on this. As a complete outside observer, I must say that the concurrent birth of Abraham Lincoln adds no meaningful information to this article. Anyone who wishes to look for such facts can click on the February 12 link, which is the first thing in both articles. If user Vinncent/Vfp15 wishes to create an article on astrological coincidences, lists of trivia facts, or something of the sort, than that would be a completely different debate. Perhaps Vinncent could focus on working the information into a separate article focusing on such things, and others could concern themselves with the content of that article. But it has nothing meaningful to do with the life, history, or work of Charles Darwin, and does not belong in this article. — Cortonin | Talk 07:33, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm reluctant to go for the reductio ad absurdum argument (because it seldom helps and might just encourage people), but what the hey, its just too good...
Here is an excerpt from Darwin's autobiography (linked in the article) on how he felt about coicidences. OK, it doesn't mention Lincoln, and it doesn't find any special "deeper" meaning in them (for that matter, neither do I) but their presence impresses him nonetheless. Vincent 09:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 10:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)) This doesn't say anything about coincidences. If Darwin had been accepted because his nose was the same shape as FR, *that* would have been coincidence. This, if anything, is butterfly-causes-hurricane stuff.
The comment on the RfC page was biased against me rather than neutral. I have corrected this.
Old:
New:
People are still adding and removing this. I suggest we vote and the minority have to put up with it. Joe D (t) 22:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(discussion between Vincent and Jerzy moved. Discussions shouldn't appear in the middle of votes)
Captain Fitz-Roy was a "gentleman" and could not dine on board the Beagle with non gentlemen (stupid, but par for the course in those days). He was also nephew of Lord Castlereagh, UK rep to Vienna in 1815. Castlereagh committed suicided due to what Fitz-Roy thought was a family propensity to melancholia. Therefore, to avoid loneliness and an ensuing attack of the blues, Fitz-Roy needed a dining companion of equal social standing to share his meals and provide conversation during the five year voyage. Darwin was asked on the Beagle in that capacity; he was not the Beagle's official naturalist, someone else was. I forgot who, but not a proper gentleman, anyway. SOOOO, if Castlereagh hadn't existed, Fitz-Roy quite possibly wouldn't have advertised for a gentleman companion, Darwin would never have travelled on the Beagle, and the Origin of Species would never have been written.
Oh something would have been written by someone, and we'd still have some sort of evolutionary theory today, but not Darwin's deep and insightful work. Contemporary evolutionary scientists still read Darwin for the insights he brings. Coincidences often matter, and interesting should not be censored. But then any student of the history of science would know this already. Vincent 08:47, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Agree with the last point so i've done it. The Castlereagh connection should go in the FitzRoy article. In UK English there's a distinction between correlation which is what I understand Darwin to have been interested in, and coincidence which he wasn't. but I've added a wee section for you trivia freaks...enjoy... dave souza 01:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have just requested mediation. I'm sorry it has come to this, but I have been willing to compromise, and my Summary above stands. I give good reasons for keeping it in, and those who want it out are just gainsaying me because they have already made up their minds. Vincent 01:13, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've seen the request for mediation, and I'll keep an eye on the article for awhile. If edit warring continues, I'll protect the page. I hope you guys can sort out your differences before it comes to that. Good luck. :) Mgm| (talk) 10:44, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
I've just locked the page; people are still reverting each other's edits. Please discuss it here first and come to a concensus or agreement before editing. Mgm| (talk) 11:56, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
I've just seen this on the Request for Mediation page (much of my time in the last few days has been occupied with Christmas, & what time I have for Wikipedia I've devoted to edits), & I'm not sure just what Mediation can do to help in this matter.
Do you see my point? This dispute is silly!
Frankly, I don't care if this trivia is in the article or not; including it or excluding it will not be the end of Wikipedia. But I am concerned that a number of people who might not otherwise enjoy working together on various topics not only are mistrustful of each other, but some will decide Wikipedia is not worth the trouble & leave. Is fighting over this one point really worth harming the rest of Wikipedia?
So, does anyone have a solution for solving this matter? If not, here is my proposal: at the next scheduled WikiMeetup, I will ask someone to flip a coin in front of a number of Wikipedians, who will attest to the result. Heads, the factoid stays in the article; tails, it's out. And then the matter is over. Failure to agree to this or something better means the lot of you would rather just sit in front of your computers & argue. --- llywrch 06:34, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Votes are fine to decide issues of style (e.g. the infobox dispute last September) but they do not apply when deciding factual assertions, and here the minority (i.e. Sam Spade, Brutannica, JackOfOZ, Willmcw, , at0, chocolateboy, and me) is right and the majority is wrong. I am willing to settle for a consensus on how the fact is presented, but not on if it is included.
Here are the facts.
1) Lincoln and Darwin were in fact born on the same day.
2) There is precedent for mentioning this particular coincidence in the non-Wiki world, as shown by 4000 google hits.
3) There is precedent within Wiki for mentioning coincidences.
I am just as tired as everybody else of this silly edit war but the deletions are clearly made because a small group of people (compared to people who are simply reading the article) is deciding what ought to be removed. I submit that if Boldness is the Wiki motto when adding, then Caution should be the motto when deleting. Vincent 04:28, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Deletionism is anti-wiki
Although I'm Vincent's advocate, I'm also a Harmonious editing club member (actually, if I belong to the HEC or not it doesn't matter). I want you to stop the revert war now and stay on the current (BM's) article until the mediation begins. -- Neigel von Teighen 18:10, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Except for a very small number of articles, the addition of some inconsequential and unessential bit of coincidence should not be into the main body of the article. For a couple of examples of where it might be appropriate, look at the Birthday paradox article, or the mention near the bottom of the Mark Twain article about his association with Halley's Comet. Mark Twain not only knew about the coincidence, but had commented on it (and proved prophetic as well).
For most other articles, the elevation of a minor trifle to a place of importance in the main body of the article (especially near the beginning) is a distraction that only helps to devalue and trivialize the importance of the rest of the information in the article. In that sense, the inclusion of a simple bit of coincidence then does real harm to the article. Keep in mind that the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (and not a miscellanea).
If the coincidence is mentioned at all, there is an appropriate place for it in a Trivia section at the bottom of the article. There is certainly enough precedence for doing it that way in the Wikipedia (just do a Google site-search on trivia and The Simpsons TV show, for example [1]).
I can certainly see how the coincidence between the birthdays of Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln might seem important to mention, because it is an attempt to put Charles Darwin in some sort of context, but there is a much better way to do that. For major individuals, such as Charles Darwin, it is probably a good idea to add a small section explaining things in a broader context than just the details of that person's life. For Darwin, the section would include information about which British monarchs were ruling while he was alive, and what other major scientific discoveries (such as in physics and chemistry) were being made around the same time that he was writing "Origin of the Species". If America is brought into the discussion, it should be to include any scientific breakthroughs that were being done in the New World. gK ¿? 22:41, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
gK is right: Wikipedia is not a miscellanea. Put the factoid is in a trivia section and the reader will decide if it's relevant or not. While putting the Trivia section, we're advicing the reader that is nothing more than a triviality, but a fact also. Encyclopeadiae deal with facts and, sometimes, these facts are somewhat irrelevant. As Vincent said, all of you that are arguing that it must be deleted are giving too much importance on this. If the whole Origin of the Species was the problem, the discussion would be more understable. And, what's less understable is why users insist vandalizing here saying that's fun to revert Vincent (see [2] and [3]) -- Neigel von Teighen 16:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
1. If it will end the revert war and the name calling and allow all of us to get back to creating an article on Charles Darwin that might be worthy of being a Wikipedia Featured Article, then it is acceptable to have the mention of the connection between the birthdays of Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln in a "Trivia" or "Darwin in popular culture" section.
2. The mention of the connection between CD and AL absolutely must go in the "Early life" section.
3. There is no way in hell that I will allow the mention of Abraham Lincoln's birthday in the Charles Darwin article, and will continue the revert war until hell freezes over.
4. The pro-trivia editors should give up and accept the results of the original neutral poll, which they refused to take part in, rather than starting their own with biased wording.
Indeed. Interesting to see how the pro-trivia crew jump to vote in a stupidly biased poll but cried over the original straight forward poll that they were were destined to loose. Joe D (t) 20:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am reinserting the trivia section after a one week truce. I maintain that the factoid is factual and that with 4000 results, it passes the Wikipedia:Google test. I also stand by all the other reasons given above. I hope people will see that it does not destroy the article, and that deleting it is very much against the collaborative spirit of Wiki, which first and foremost is designed to encourage contribution. Vincent 02:41, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There was a reason this "New Vote" was so biased and "over the top" in its descriptions. It was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on how rigid all sides of this argument had gotten. It was also an attempt to show a possible way out of the stalemate. Apparently nobody got the joke, and nobody wants to compromise. Vincent will continue to emulate the labours of Sisyphus, and everyone else will take delight participating in a very one-sided revert war while adding their own insults.
gK
¿? 07:58, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Did you know that on February 11, 1858, exactly one day before Charles Darwin's birthday in the same year when On the Perpetuation of Varieties and Species by Natural Means of Selection was published, The Virgin Mary appeared to St Bernadette of Lourdes? I will add it to the article, but I want to know your opinions first. Please vote:
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
The last option means renaming Charles Darwin to Charles Darwin and Virgin Mary or, alternatively, to The amazing facts about Charles Darwin and Virgin Mary. The voting will end after 7 days, i.e. at 04:00:00 UTC on January 11, 2005, exactly one month before Darwin's 196th birthday.
Because of Noisy's latest removal, I have concluded that mediation failed to resolve the dispute and I have asked for arbitration. Vincent 05:01, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would be happy to have some mediation, which is what the arbitration committee recommended; frankly we could use as much admin scrutiny as possible. The ability of Adraeus to create substantial levels of conflict out of minor differences of opinion should be examined. This is not the first, nor will it be the least instance of this. The faster we solve the real issues (like incivility), the faster we can move on to improving articles, leaving petty conflict behind. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 01:38, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This conflict does not prevent improvements to the article. The idea that somehow this conflict is preventing editors from working on the article is utter nonsense—it's simple-minded propaganda. Adraeus 05:50, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Vincent: As much as I try, I can not understand your attachment to the CD/AL factoid. To use your own words: "Silly thing to argue about? Sure." (22 Dec 2004)
One point of confusion for me is your suggestion that those trying to remove it are doing POV edits. It is not as if we were a bunch of creationists who were trying to remove any reference to his nonconformist background and then add in the bogus story about his deathbed conversion. We are also not a bunch of atheists trying to delete any mention that he had studied for the ministry, but instead want to turn him into some paragon of atheism.
Take a serious look at the people that are involved in this debate—look at their Talk pages and their Contributions. They are not rigid ideologues, nor are they difficult people prone to edit wars. If they do a revert, most likely it's because they are reverting vandalism. Some of them have engaged in serious and informed debate on some topics, but that is part of the Wikipedia process. But look at the current WP:RFC, WP:RFM, and WP:RFAr, and except for the RFAr that you initiated, you will only find one person involved in a dispute.
It has been suggested that that removing the information is rampant deletionism, but even the most fervent inclusionist will agree that the term usually refers to the voting for deletion of entire articles, and not to a single sentence within a large article. All we want to do create the best article on Charles Darwin possible. As an eclectic group of individuals interested in Charles Darwin, the vast majority have come to the conclusion that the single sentence on CD/AL is unimportant and unnecessary to the article.
Please tell me, what principle are you upholding by continually inserting a minor bit of trivia into the Charles Darwin article?
If you had not shown total disregard for the opinions of others ("I'm right and you're wrong" 8 Dec 2004; "Fine, I will keep on reinserting it, but no more than three times a day. If you think it's such a small thing, then why don't you take a deep breath and give up?" 17 Dec 2004 [7]; " there is no way I will accept the results of a vote. None. Not a snow ball's chance in the magma of our planet." 21 Dec 2004), you might have had more luck in persuading some of the participants in this discussion to accept the information in a Trivia section. If you hadn't done your own bit of insulting ("Fighting the ignoramuses three times day 'til me dyin' day!!!" 24 Dec 2004) people would probably give more consideration to your opinions. If you had accepted the inclusion of the information into a Trivia section (instead of deleting it from there) when it was first proposed at the beginning of December, and not shown your distaste for it later ("unsatisfactory compromise" 20 Dec 2004) much of the fuss probably could have been avoided. Instead, you insisted on putting it back into the "Early life" section as late as 23 Dec.
Let's face the facts. Your Request for mediation was basically ignored by the mediators except for a one day page protection (21 Dec?). Your Request for arbitration failed. When there was a vote, over 80% of the votes were for not including the information at all (seems like an overwhelming consensus to me). In total, there have been 39 people to date who have reverted, voted against, or comment against the inclusion of the CD/AL factoid.
The only real reason that you've given is that you find it interesting. Well most of the rest of the Wikipedia editors have shown that they found it an irrelevant bit of trivia. What a silly thing to argue over. gK ¿? 07:33, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus 03:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
About the original question:
So, I am for removal.
About the discussion:
Floflei6 09:36, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To put into context how silly, and potentially harmful, the edit war over birthday trivia is, my first impulse was to revert this addition by an anonymous editor to the Ludwig Wittgenstein article today. But if you check the rest of the paragraph, which has been around much longer, you will see that it is both relevant and potentially significant. Quite a contrast to the Darwin/Lincoln birthday which is just a coincidence. -- Solipsist 07:25, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | → | Archive 5 |
After I write this, I am going to remove the AL info, because it is just a bit of trivia that is unnecessary to the CD article. If there was any other connection between the two men it might be worth mentioning. Before he adds it again, I think that User:Vfp15 should explain thinks that it is so necessary to keep adding it back into the article. [[User:GK|gK ¿?]] 06:38, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have inserted a reference to the Simpsons under trivia as a protest against the ridiculousness of having such a section-- XmarkX 07:24, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have once again removed this completely irrelevant digression from the article. It can be removed because it simply adds nothing to our knowledge of Charles Darwin to the article. It is an irrelevant piece of trivia that has no place here. Vincent - you have added this to the article now on at least 17 different occasions, and each time it is subsequently removed. It is removed for a very good reason. Please finally give up and respect the consensus here. I will personally remove it every single time I see it creaping up.
Why are you so obsessed with such a small and trivial point, anyway? I cannot believe we are having an edit war over this. Aaarrrggh 11:42, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I wandered in from RfC and read this section, and I recommend... no Abraham Lincoln. If Darwin was unusually interested in fortuitous occurrences (and there are several examples, enough to show it was a definite personality trait of his), and if there's evidence (not just "One can imagine him saying....") that he knew and commented on this one, then it would be OK to add a reference to this quirk of his personality, illustrating it by saying, "For example, he commented in a letter to Lord Drunkensot that he had been born on the same day as Abraham Lincoln." Otherwise, sorry, it's just not an interesting coincidence. JamesMLane 03:36, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I just went to Google, that great Wiki arbiter, and found that a search on "Charles Darwin" "Abraham Lincoln" and "birthday" yields over 4000 results. (Can't wait for the flames that are going to follow this comment...) Vincent 05:18, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A summary of my argument follows.
1. The AL/CD birthday coincidence is factual.
2. It is a vivid time marker.
3. Coincidences are especially relevant to Darwin's thought, so it's good style to put one here.
4. There are examples in published popular science writing of pointing out this coincidence and one column in Scientific American devoted to coincidental relationships (Connections I think it's called). This is not an appeal to authority, it is justification by precedent.
5. I have been open to consensus, accepting the "Trivia list" solution (which I didn't much like BTW). I reinserted the coincidence AFTER the trivia list was deleted.
6. It is culturally significant. Google backs up the relevance of the shared AL & CD birthday with over
4000 results, while it only yields
14 results for the same search on, as FastFission suggested, Junichiro Koizumi (current Prime Minister of Japan), Stephen Hawking, and birthday.
Actually, I reinserted it before, then noticed the trivia list including the coincidence, so deleted the coincidence from the "Early Life" section myself.
I suppose this is sarcastic, but a summary of the other side's argument goes like this.
1. It's irrelevant.
2. It's IRRELEVANT!
3. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT!
4. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT. IT'S IRRELEVANT, DAMMIT.!!!
5. AAAAARGH, IT'S IRRELEVANT!!!!!
Finally, one of my edits was reverted (the Darwin losing his faith bit) by Aargh and replaced with a false story. (I admit and appreciate that this was also changed back by someone else, and improved in the process.)
As for the editors reverting me, well what can I say? Listen to you guys! One interesting little line of 10 words and you are pilloring me rather than letting it go. Arguments (I mean real arguments, not fights) are never resolved except in court. You guys are just as guilty (ha! guiltier!) as I am of flippant reversions.
I want an arbitration on this, and in the mean time, I insist the fact be included, either in the "Early Life" section or in a Trivia section. You guys decide where.
Vincent 09:52, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
For the record, I put it on RfC last night only because it did not seem that this discussion was really making any progress, and this seemed like an ideal place for outside commentary (one user with some sort of axe to grind in a revert war against everybody else). Vfp15, I think it's a really silly thing to waste everybody's time just because you want to insert your coincidence into the article. The article is perfectly fine without it, its merits are contested to say the least, and you are looking a bit obsessive in your insistence. Even if you think it is perfectly germane (and you seem to be about the only one who does), this is not a fact which warrants obsessive and rude behavior to insist its inclusion. It's trivia. It is trivial. Move on, already. -- Fastfission 14:41, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Vinncent contacted me (not sure where he got my name from to contact) and asked me to comment on this. As a complete outside observer, I must say that the concurrent birth of Abraham Lincoln adds no meaningful information to this article. Anyone who wishes to look for such facts can click on the February 12 link, which is the first thing in both articles. If user Vinncent/Vfp15 wishes to create an article on astrological coincidences, lists of trivia facts, or something of the sort, than that would be a completely different debate. Perhaps Vinncent could focus on working the information into a separate article focusing on such things, and others could concern themselves with the content of that article. But it has nothing meaningful to do with the life, history, or work of Charles Darwin, and does not belong in this article. — Cortonin | Talk 07:33, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I'm reluctant to go for the reductio ad absurdum argument (because it seldom helps and might just encourage people), but what the hey, its just too good...
Here is an excerpt from Darwin's autobiography (linked in the article) on how he felt about coicidences. OK, it doesn't mention Lincoln, and it doesn't find any special "deeper" meaning in them (for that matter, neither do I) but their presence impresses him nonetheless. Vincent 09:36, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 10:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)) This doesn't say anything about coincidences. If Darwin had been accepted because his nose was the same shape as FR, *that* would have been coincidence. This, if anything, is butterfly-causes-hurricane stuff.
The comment on the RfC page was biased against me rather than neutral. I have corrected this.
Old:
New:
People are still adding and removing this. I suggest we vote and the minority have to put up with it. Joe D (t) 22:06, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
(discussion between Vincent and Jerzy moved. Discussions shouldn't appear in the middle of votes)
Captain Fitz-Roy was a "gentleman" and could not dine on board the Beagle with non gentlemen (stupid, but par for the course in those days). He was also nephew of Lord Castlereagh, UK rep to Vienna in 1815. Castlereagh committed suicided due to what Fitz-Roy thought was a family propensity to melancholia. Therefore, to avoid loneliness and an ensuing attack of the blues, Fitz-Roy needed a dining companion of equal social standing to share his meals and provide conversation during the five year voyage. Darwin was asked on the Beagle in that capacity; he was not the Beagle's official naturalist, someone else was. I forgot who, but not a proper gentleman, anyway. SOOOO, if Castlereagh hadn't existed, Fitz-Roy quite possibly wouldn't have advertised for a gentleman companion, Darwin would never have travelled on the Beagle, and the Origin of Species would never have been written.
Oh something would have been written by someone, and we'd still have some sort of evolutionary theory today, but not Darwin's deep and insightful work. Contemporary evolutionary scientists still read Darwin for the insights he brings. Coincidences often matter, and interesting should not be censored. But then any student of the history of science would know this already. Vincent 08:47, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Agree with the last point so i've done it. The Castlereagh connection should go in the FitzRoy article. In UK English there's a distinction between correlation which is what I understand Darwin to have been interested in, and coincidence which he wasn't. but I've added a wee section for you trivia freaks...enjoy... dave souza 01:06, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I have just requested mediation. I'm sorry it has come to this, but I have been willing to compromise, and my Summary above stands. I give good reasons for keeping it in, and those who want it out are just gainsaying me because they have already made up their minds. Vincent 01:13, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've seen the request for mediation, and I'll keep an eye on the article for awhile. If edit warring continues, I'll protect the page. I hope you guys can sort out your differences before it comes to that. Good luck. :) Mgm| (talk) 10:44, Dec 21, 2004 (UTC)
I've just locked the page; people are still reverting each other's edits. Please discuss it here first and come to a concensus or agreement before editing. Mgm| (talk) 11:56, Dec 22, 2004 (UTC)
I've just seen this on the Request for Mediation page (much of my time in the last few days has been occupied with Christmas, & what time I have for Wikipedia I've devoted to edits), & I'm not sure just what Mediation can do to help in this matter.
Do you see my point? This dispute is silly!
Frankly, I don't care if this trivia is in the article or not; including it or excluding it will not be the end of Wikipedia. But I am concerned that a number of people who might not otherwise enjoy working together on various topics not only are mistrustful of each other, but some will decide Wikipedia is not worth the trouble & leave. Is fighting over this one point really worth harming the rest of Wikipedia?
So, does anyone have a solution for solving this matter? If not, here is my proposal: at the next scheduled WikiMeetup, I will ask someone to flip a coin in front of a number of Wikipedians, who will attest to the result. Heads, the factoid stays in the article; tails, it's out. And then the matter is over. Failure to agree to this or something better means the lot of you would rather just sit in front of your computers & argue. --- llywrch 06:34, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Votes are fine to decide issues of style (e.g. the infobox dispute last September) but they do not apply when deciding factual assertions, and here the minority (i.e. Sam Spade, Brutannica, JackOfOZ, Willmcw, , at0, chocolateboy, and me) is right and the majority is wrong. I am willing to settle for a consensus on how the fact is presented, but not on if it is included.
Here are the facts.
1) Lincoln and Darwin were in fact born on the same day.
2) There is precedent for mentioning this particular coincidence in the non-Wiki world, as shown by 4000 google hits.
3) There is precedent within Wiki for mentioning coincidences.
I am just as tired as everybody else of this silly edit war but the deletions are clearly made because a small group of people (compared to people who are simply reading the article) is deciding what ought to be removed. I submit that if Boldness is the Wiki motto when adding, then Caution should be the motto when deleting. Vincent 04:28, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Deletionism is anti-wiki
Although I'm Vincent's advocate, I'm also a Harmonious editing club member (actually, if I belong to the HEC or not it doesn't matter). I want you to stop the revert war now and stay on the current (BM's) article until the mediation begins. -- Neigel von Teighen 18:10, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Except for a very small number of articles, the addition of some inconsequential and unessential bit of coincidence should not be into the main body of the article. For a couple of examples of where it might be appropriate, look at the Birthday paradox article, or the mention near the bottom of the Mark Twain article about his association with Halley's Comet. Mark Twain not only knew about the coincidence, but had commented on it (and proved prophetic as well).
For most other articles, the elevation of a minor trifle to a place of importance in the main body of the article (especially near the beginning) is a distraction that only helps to devalue and trivialize the importance of the rest of the information in the article. In that sense, the inclusion of a simple bit of coincidence then does real harm to the article. Keep in mind that the Wikipedia is an encyclopedia (and not a miscellanea).
If the coincidence is mentioned at all, there is an appropriate place for it in a Trivia section at the bottom of the article. There is certainly enough precedence for doing it that way in the Wikipedia (just do a Google site-search on trivia and The Simpsons TV show, for example [1]).
I can certainly see how the coincidence between the birthdays of Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln might seem important to mention, because it is an attempt to put Charles Darwin in some sort of context, but there is a much better way to do that. For major individuals, such as Charles Darwin, it is probably a good idea to add a small section explaining things in a broader context than just the details of that person's life. For Darwin, the section would include information about which British monarchs were ruling while he was alive, and what other major scientific discoveries (such as in physics and chemistry) were being made around the same time that he was writing "Origin of the Species". If America is brought into the discussion, it should be to include any scientific breakthroughs that were being done in the New World. gK ¿? 22:41, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)
gK is right: Wikipedia is not a miscellanea. Put the factoid is in a trivia section and the reader will decide if it's relevant or not. While putting the Trivia section, we're advicing the reader that is nothing more than a triviality, but a fact also. Encyclopeadiae deal with facts and, sometimes, these facts are somewhat irrelevant. As Vincent said, all of you that are arguing that it must be deleted are giving too much importance on this. If the whole Origin of the Species was the problem, the discussion would be more understable. And, what's less understable is why users insist vandalizing here saying that's fun to revert Vincent (see [2] and [3]) -- Neigel von Teighen 16:21, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)
1. If it will end the revert war and the name calling and allow all of us to get back to creating an article on Charles Darwin that might be worthy of being a Wikipedia Featured Article, then it is acceptable to have the mention of the connection between the birthdays of Charles Darwin and Abraham Lincoln in a "Trivia" or "Darwin in popular culture" section.
2. The mention of the connection between CD and AL absolutely must go in the "Early life" section.
3. There is no way in hell that I will allow the mention of Abraham Lincoln's birthday in the Charles Darwin article, and will continue the revert war until hell freezes over.
4. The pro-trivia editors should give up and accept the results of the original neutral poll, which they refused to take part in, rather than starting their own with biased wording.
Indeed. Interesting to see how the pro-trivia crew jump to vote in a stupidly biased poll but cried over the original straight forward poll that they were were destined to loose. Joe D (t) 20:14, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I am reinserting the trivia section after a one week truce. I maintain that the factoid is factual and that with 4000 results, it passes the Wikipedia:Google test. I also stand by all the other reasons given above. I hope people will see that it does not destroy the article, and that deleting it is very much against the collaborative spirit of Wiki, which first and foremost is designed to encourage contribution. Vincent 02:41, 8 Jan 2005 (UTC)
There was a reason this "New Vote" was so biased and "over the top" in its descriptions. It was supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek commentary on how rigid all sides of this argument had gotten. It was also an attempt to show a possible way out of the stalemate. Apparently nobody got the joke, and nobody wants to compromise. Vincent will continue to emulate the labours of Sisyphus, and everyone else will take delight participating in a very one-sided revert war while adding their own insults.
gK
¿? 07:58, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Did you know that on February 11, 1858, exactly one day before Charles Darwin's birthday in the same year when On the Perpetuation of Varieties and Species by Natural Means of Selection was published, The Virgin Mary appeared to St Bernadette of Lourdes? I will add it to the article, but I want to know your opinions first. Please vote:
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
Please sign with #~~~~
The last option means renaming Charles Darwin to Charles Darwin and Virgin Mary or, alternatively, to The amazing facts about Charles Darwin and Virgin Mary. The voting will end after 7 days, i.e. at 04:00:00 UTC on January 11, 2005, exactly one month before Darwin's 196th birthday.
Because of Noisy's latest removal, I have concluded that mediation failed to resolve the dispute and I have asked for arbitration. Vincent 05:01, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)
I would be happy to have some mediation, which is what the arbitration committee recommended; frankly we could use as much admin scrutiny as possible. The ability of Adraeus to create substantial levels of conflict out of minor differences of opinion should be examined. This is not the first, nor will it be the least instance of this. The faster we solve the real issues (like incivility), the faster we can move on to improving articles, leaving petty conflict behind. Sam_Spade ( talk · contribs) 01:38, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
This conflict does not prevent improvements to the article. The idea that somehow this conflict is preventing editors from working on the article is utter nonsense—it's simple-minded propaganda. Adraeus 05:50, 12 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Vincent: As much as I try, I can not understand your attachment to the CD/AL factoid. To use your own words: "Silly thing to argue about? Sure." (22 Dec 2004)
One point of confusion for me is your suggestion that those trying to remove it are doing POV edits. It is not as if we were a bunch of creationists who were trying to remove any reference to his nonconformist background and then add in the bogus story about his deathbed conversion. We are also not a bunch of atheists trying to delete any mention that he had studied for the ministry, but instead want to turn him into some paragon of atheism.
Take a serious look at the people that are involved in this debate—look at their Talk pages and their Contributions. They are not rigid ideologues, nor are they difficult people prone to edit wars. If they do a revert, most likely it's because they are reverting vandalism. Some of them have engaged in serious and informed debate on some topics, but that is part of the Wikipedia process. But look at the current WP:RFC, WP:RFM, and WP:RFAr, and except for the RFAr that you initiated, you will only find one person involved in a dispute.
It has been suggested that that removing the information is rampant deletionism, but even the most fervent inclusionist will agree that the term usually refers to the voting for deletion of entire articles, and not to a single sentence within a large article. All we want to do create the best article on Charles Darwin possible. As an eclectic group of individuals interested in Charles Darwin, the vast majority have come to the conclusion that the single sentence on CD/AL is unimportant and unnecessary to the article.
Please tell me, what principle are you upholding by continually inserting a minor bit of trivia into the Charles Darwin article?
If you had not shown total disregard for the opinions of others ("I'm right and you're wrong" 8 Dec 2004; "Fine, I will keep on reinserting it, but no more than three times a day. If you think it's such a small thing, then why don't you take a deep breath and give up?" 17 Dec 2004 [7]; " there is no way I will accept the results of a vote. None. Not a snow ball's chance in the magma of our planet." 21 Dec 2004), you might have had more luck in persuading some of the participants in this discussion to accept the information in a Trivia section. If you hadn't done your own bit of insulting ("Fighting the ignoramuses three times day 'til me dyin' day!!!" 24 Dec 2004) people would probably give more consideration to your opinions. If you had accepted the inclusion of the information into a Trivia section (instead of deleting it from there) when it was first proposed at the beginning of December, and not shown your distaste for it later ("unsatisfactory compromise" 20 Dec 2004) much of the fuss probably could have been avoided. Instead, you insisted on putting it back into the "Early life" section as late as 23 Dec.
Let's face the facts. Your Request for mediation was basically ignored by the mediators except for a one day page protection (21 Dec?). Your Request for arbitration failed. When there was a vote, over 80% of the votes were for not including the information at all (seems like an overwhelming consensus to me). In total, there have been 39 people to date who have reverted, voted against, or comment against the inclusion of the CD/AL factoid.
The only real reason that you've given is that you find it interesting. Well most of the rest of the Wikipedia editors have shown that they found it an irrelevant bit of trivia. What a silly thing to argue over. gK ¿? 07:33, 14 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Adraeus 03:08, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)
About the original question:
So, I am for removal.
About the discussion:
Floflei6 09:36, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)
To put into context how silly, and potentially harmful, the edit war over birthday trivia is, my first impulse was to revert this addition by an anonymous editor to the Ludwig Wittgenstein article today. But if you check the rest of the paragraph, which has been around much longer, you will see that it is both relevant and potentially significant. Quite a contrast to the Darwin/Lincoln birthday which is just a coincidence. -- Solipsist 07:25, 15 Jan 2005 (UTC)