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I've proposed this article for deletion. After 4 years, it sits at just 150 words. Sources linked in the article are more about the history of the communist movements in Italy and Czechoslovakia than about "Bolshevization" as an overall process. I could find no sources discussing "Bolshevization" more generally; in fact, the word seems to have been used more as a vague politicizing term by contemporaries both supporting and opposing the USSR around the time. The content in the article can be easily rolled into History of Communism and/or History of the USSR and nothing will be lost. Combefere ★ Talk 17:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- it's a topic in the political history of the left in lots of countries--Germany, USA, UK, Finland etc. in the 1920s and 1930s. --It was usually defeated but some leaders became dictators after 1945 like in East Germany & Czechoslovakia. I added some scholarly books and articles in English (there is a lot more in foreign languages). For an overview of the literature in English see https://ras.jes.su/nni/s013038640013465-9-1-en Rjensen ( talk) 18:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus to move is unlikely to develop. ( non-admin closure) Aydoh8 ( talk) 03:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Bolshevization → Stalinization – This article should be renamed as Stalinization. The article explains how Stalin and his supporters ended democratic decision making in the national sections of the Communist International. Stalin destroyed the genuine bolshevics in the Soviet Union, for example through the infamous show trials. To name this article Bolshevisation is a gross dishonour to the memory of those genuine bolsheviks who opposed Stalin and were persecuted and murdered for that opposition. Hewer7 ( talk) 15:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 ( talk) 01:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above proposal to rename this page to Stalinization would also be consistent with the introductory paragraph in the article on Stalinism, which defines it as including the "... subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union,...".
Hewer7 (
talk) 20:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: based on web searches, the proposed title does not meet the Wikipedia policy for WP:COMMONNAME. Article titles are based on policy, not what we think should be right. 🌺 Cremastra ( talk) 23:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: they are two entirely different subjects. // Timothy :: talk 23:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as stated in my discussion with you, these are two different subjects. Based on extra review, it fails WP:COMMONNAME as well.
- Antny08 ( talk) 11:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Please ignore the point I made about 'gross dishonor' as I see that can be considered an emotional rather than a factual matter. I still contend that Stalinism begins much earlier than 1928. The elements of Stalinism, are described in the article of that name as including: "...the creation of a one-party totalitarian police state, rapid industrialization, the theory of socialism in one country (until 1939), collectivization of agriculture, intensification of class conflict, a cult of personality, and subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union,..."
- My point is that the beginning of Stalinism, and of the Stalinization of the other communist parties is marked by three initial changes: the theory of socialism in one country, the bureaucratization of the Bolshevik/Communist party - that is the ending of internal party democracy, and the related bureaucratization of the Comintern and the communist parties of other countries. Other features of Stalinism generally developed later.
- The theory of socialism in one country developed in 1924: see /info/en/?search=Socialism_in_one_country
- The ending of the norms of bolshevic party democracy begin with the secret formation of an internal faction within the Politburo, the Troika of Stalin, Zinoviev and Kamenev. Tony Cliff states that this secret faction was formed as early as 1922 or 23. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1990/trotsky2/16-troika.html That article includes a link to Stalin making the Troika public later on. The following article confirms that the Troika was formed earlier: https://www.sparknotes.com/biography/stalin/section6/
- Lenin was evidently aware of the potential threat posed by Stalin and warned of it as early as 1923, shortly before the stroke that would totally incapacitate him in March of that year. ' " Lenin warned the Party that Stalin had "unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution" and formed a faction with Leon Trotsky to remove Stalin as the General Secretary of the Communist Party.' See /info/en/?search=Leninism
- Another key aspect of the bureaucratization of the party was the degeneration of Rabkrin (the worker's and peasant's inspectorate). This was set up to deliberately try and give workers and peasants oversight of the beaurocracy to try ensure that it did not take power. However under Stalin's control that was subverted and instead Stalin used it to develop his domination. See /info/en/?search=Rabkrin
- This degradation of internal party democracy then started to spread to the rest of the Communist International - and should therefore be called Stalinization rather than Bolshevization.
Hewer7 (
talk) 13:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply. You make good points, but even if the points were correct, it still fails to pass
WP:COMMONNAME, which forces me to oppose.
Antny08 (
talk) 14:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think in this case it is necessary to consider that wikipedia policies "describe standards all users should normally follow." ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines). The word 'normally' is hyperlinked to a page that makes the following statement: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules
- My reason for saying this needs to be considered is that the existing term Bolshevization was used as a cover for Stalinization. In other words to accept the term Bolshevisation for how "the pluralistic Communist International (Comintern) and its constituent communist parties were increasingly subject to pressure by the Kremlin in Moscow to follow Marxism–Leninism. " would be to go along with the Stalinist distortion of the term.
- As you can see from the the following work a more thorough analysis shows that incipient stalinism in the comintern can be considered as beginning in 1924. The work "utilizes insights from Sovietologists to argue that Stalinism constituted a politics and practice connected with but distinct from Bolshevism. Reviewing Comintern and party history, it proposes a specific periodization. State Bolshevism, 1919–1923, saw subjugation of the American and British parties to Russian imperatives. Incipient Stalinism, 1924–1928, witnessed restructuring of the politics of subordination. From 1929, Stalinization accomplished a distinctive subordination."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0023656X.2019.1572872
Hewer7 (
talk) 17:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- You have amazing structure of your response and good facts, but none of what you are saying proves that this should be the new name. As stated by another user, just because they existed at the same time and are SIMILAR does not mean they are the SAME. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and well-written responses. Once again, I do not have much knowledge on this, but based on what everyone else is saying, the name change will likely be denied. Antny08 ( talk) 19:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- That they coexisted for a period of time and impacted each other doesn't change that the two subjects are different. // Timothy :: talk 14:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply. You make good points, but even if the points were correct, it still fails to pass
WP:COMMONNAME, which forces me to oppose.
Antny08 (
talk) 14:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
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I've proposed this article for deletion. After 4 years, it sits at just 150 words. Sources linked in the article are more about the history of the communist movements in Italy and Czechoslovakia than about "Bolshevization" as an overall process. I could find no sources discussing "Bolshevization" more generally; in fact, the word seems to have been used more as a vague politicizing term by contemporaries both supporting and opposing the USSR around the time. The content in the article can be easily rolled into History of Communism and/or History of the USSR and nothing will be lost. Combefere ★ Talk 17:31, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- it's a topic in the political history of the left in lots of countries--Germany, USA, UK, Finland etc. in the 1920s and 1930s. --It was usually defeated but some leaders became dictators after 1945 like in East Germany & Czechoslovakia. I added some scholarly books and articles in English (there is a lot more in foreign languages). For an overview of the literature in English see https://ras.jes.su/nni/s013038640013465-9-1-en Rjensen ( talk) 18:36, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: Not moved. Consensus to move is unlikely to develop. ( non-admin closure) Aydoh8 ( talk) 03:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
Bolshevization → Stalinization – This article should be renamed as Stalinization. The article explains how Stalin and his supporters ended democratic decision making in the national sections of the Communist International. Stalin destroyed the genuine bolshevics in the Soviet Union, for example through the infamous show trials. To name this article Bolshevisation is a gross dishonour to the memory of those genuine bolsheviks who opposed Stalin and were persecuted and murdered for that opposition. Hewer7 ( talk) 15:08, 1 March 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 ( talk) 01:29, 21 March 2024 (UTC)
- The above proposal to rename this page to Stalinization would also be consistent with the introductory paragraph in the article on Stalinism, which defines it as including the "... subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union,...".
Hewer7 (
talk) 20:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: based on web searches, the proposed title does not meet the Wikipedia policy for WP:COMMONNAME. Article titles are based on policy, not what we think should be right. 🌺 Cremastra ( talk) 23:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Strong oppose: they are two entirely different subjects. // Timothy :: talk 23:56, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose as stated in my discussion with you, these are two different subjects. Based on extra review, it fails WP:COMMONNAME as well.
- Antny08 ( talk) 11:55, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I understand. Please ignore the point I made about 'gross dishonor' as I see that can be considered an emotional rather than a factual matter. I still contend that Stalinism begins much earlier than 1928. The elements of Stalinism, are described in the article of that name as including: "...the creation of a one-party totalitarian police state, rapid industrialization, the theory of socialism in one country (until 1939), collectivization of agriculture, intensification of class conflict, a cult of personality, and subordination of the interests of foreign communist parties to those of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union,..."
- My point is that the beginning of Stalinism, and of the Stalinization of the other communist parties is marked by three initial changes: the theory of socialism in one country, the bureaucratization of the Bolshevik/Communist party - that is the ending of internal party democracy, and the related bureaucratization of the Comintern and the communist parties of other countries. Other features of Stalinism generally developed later.
- The theory of socialism in one country developed in 1924: see /info/en/?search=Socialism_in_one_country
- The ending of the norms of bolshevic party democracy begin with the secret formation of an internal faction within the Politburo, the Troika of Stalin, Zinoviev and Kamenev. Tony Cliff states that this secret faction was formed as early as 1922 or 23. See https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1990/trotsky2/16-troika.html That article includes a link to Stalin making the Troika public later on. The following article confirms that the Troika was formed earlier: https://www.sparknotes.com/biography/stalin/section6/
- Lenin was evidently aware of the potential threat posed by Stalin and warned of it as early as 1923, shortly before the stroke that would totally incapacitate him in March of that year. ' " Lenin warned the Party that Stalin had "unlimited authority concentrated in his hands, and I am not sure whether he will always be capable of using that authority with sufficient caution" and formed a faction with Leon Trotsky to remove Stalin as the General Secretary of the Communist Party.' See /info/en/?search=Leninism
- Another key aspect of the bureaucratization of the party was the degeneration of Rabkrin (the worker's and peasant's inspectorate). This was set up to deliberately try and give workers and peasants oversight of the beaurocracy to try ensure that it did not take power. However under Stalin's control that was subverted and instead Stalin used it to develop his domination. See /info/en/?search=Rabkrin
- This degradation of internal party democracy then started to spread to the rest of the Communist International - and should therefore be called Stalinization rather than Bolshevization.
Hewer7 (
talk) 13:31, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply. You make good points, but even if the points were correct, it still fails to pass
WP:COMMONNAME, which forces me to oppose.
Antny08 (
talk) 14:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- I think in this case it is necessary to consider that wikipedia policies "describe standards all users should normally follow." ( /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines). The word 'normally' is hyperlinked to a page that makes the following statement: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." /info/en/?search=Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules
- My reason for saying this needs to be considered is that the existing term Bolshevization was used as a cover for Stalinization. In other words to accept the term Bolshevisation for how "the pluralistic Communist International (Comintern) and its constituent communist parties were increasingly subject to pressure by the Kremlin in Moscow to follow Marxism–Leninism. " would be to go along with the Stalinist distortion of the term.
- As you can see from the the following work a more thorough analysis shows that incipient stalinism in the comintern can be considered as beginning in 1924. The work "utilizes insights from Sovietologists to argue that Stalinism constituted a politics and practice connected with but distinct from Bolshevism. Reviewing Comintern and party history, it proposes a specific periodization. State Bolshevism, 1919–1923, saw subjugation of the American and British parties to Russian imperatives. Incipient Stalinism, 1924–1928, witnessed restructuring of the politics of subordination. From 1929, Stalinization accomplished a distinctive subordination."
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0023656X.2019.1572872
Hewer7 (
talk) 17:29, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- You have amazing structure of your response and good facts, but none of what you are saying proves that this should be the new name. As stated by another user, just because they existed at the same time and are SIMILAR does not mean they are the SAME. I do appreciate your enthusiasm and well-written responses. Once again, I do not have much knowledge on this, but based on what everyone else is saying, the name change will likely be denied. Antny08 ( talk) 19:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- That they coexisted for a period of time and impacted each other doesn't change that the two subjects are different. // Timothy :: talk 14:32, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
- Thank you for the detailed reply. You make good points, but even if the points were correct, it still fails to pass
WP:COMMONNAME, which forces me to oppose.
Antny08 (
talk) 14:30, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.