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Why would a river that flows in albanian land then forms the border between Albania and Montenegro have the slavic name? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 13:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Bojana (river) → Buna (river) – Buna/Bojana is a river which flows from northern Albania to the Adriatic Sea. Half of its course is entirely within Albania and in the next half, it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Arguments in favor of a move to Buna:
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the nameBuna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. The name Buna is used for all sections of the river, while the name Bojana only for part it.
If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If more than one local name exists, follow the procedure explained below under Multiple local names.The local name for over 98% of communities living along the Buna is Albanian both as an official and as a local name. Bojana is used as the official name in Montenegro, but Ulcinj municipality is an Albanian minority area. As such, both Bojana and Buna are co-official in the section which forms the border with Montenegro.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest. The mouth of the Bojana is on the Adriatic Sea, close to the island of Ada Bojana. As per WP:COMMONNAME, Ada Bojana 1.500 is a lot more common than it's alternative name Ishulli i Bunës 63. Given the discrepancies, a change would not be beneficial as a clear deciding solution can not be deduced. ElderZamzam ( talk) 02:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
If everything else is equalin NCRIVER refers to
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name. If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.I argued why the second point leads to Buna as the article's title.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Buna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro, is self-contradictory: is the Bojana-Buna entirely within Albania or is half of its course shared between Albania and Montenegro? In fact, of its 41 km, 25, or more than half, are located between Albania and Montenegro, which does not make it a river exclusive to Albania.
A river which is mostly located in Montenegro on within its border- Well, the river is also entirely located within Albania or on the Albanian border. It starts from the Albanian side of Lake Skadar, flows through Albania for about 20km, and the final 24km forms part of the Montenegro/Albania border. All 44km of the river is within/bordering Albania, whilst only 24km of it borders Montenegro.
mostly located in Montenegroas their key argument for opposing the RM. During its first 20km the river is located entirely within Albania and during its lower course (24km) it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Support/Oppose votes need to be based on wikipedia's policies and reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a democracy and we don't generate consensus via voting, but via discussion based on our policies. If someone (doesn't) agree(s) with the proposal but can't argue about their position based on any policy, then they shouldn't vote because such votes will likely be dismissed by experienced editors who will close the RM.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
n[o]t a real conflict with Buna (Neretva)? If the Albanian/Montenegrin river didn't exist then Buna (Neretva) would be at Buna (river)? Neither river is so much more popular than the other that partial disambiguation is warranted. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
if the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name. Also important is the fact that Buna is the local and native name for 99% of the population living along the river - the Albanians who live along the river on Montenegro’s side do not say “Bojana”. As for the oppose votes, it’s disappointing to see the lack of policy-based arguments and some blatant mistakes. The river is not located "mostly" in Montenegro. It's located in Albania 45% (20 km) and 55% (24 km) is the Albanian-Montenegrin border. The other !oppose argument about Ada Bojana doesn't change WP:NCRIVER's stipulations. Ada Bojana is a very small “island” of only 4.81 km2 in size within Montenegro and functions as a small tourist resort, but its name - which is a matter of official naming in Montenegro - doesn't impact the name of the river itself outside Montenegro. Botushali ( talk) 21:08, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
The rationale applied on Vjosa in late 2021 should apply here as well. There is no clear common name in English, as Buna and Bojana are more or less equal, i.e. there is not a clear case that one is considerably more used than the other. Hence the second condition applies. The section of the river that uses the Albanian name is roughly twice longer, because Albanian is official and a local language in all of the rivers' course. Montenegrin on the other hand is official and locally spoken only in the second half of the course - even there the vast majority of the population speaks Albanian as per the Ulcinj Municipality article, and only a minority speaks Montenegrin. WP:NCRIVER allows Buna (river) and precedents are mentioned there and by an editor above. However, per WP:NCRIVER Buna (Adratic Sea) is more suitable. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
A river can be identified uniquely as a tributary of another river, e.g., Rio Puerco (Rio Grande tributary).(also Churchill River (Atlantic))
If a river with an ambiguous name empties directly into a lake or definable sea, then the name of that body of water could follow in parentheses, e.g., Churchill River (Hudson Bay).
Neither river name is more popular than the otherIndeed. And as per WP:NCRIVER, in such a case the name used for the longest section should be used as the article's name. A river shared between Greece and Albania is named "Aoos" in the Greek section, and "Vjosa" in the longer, Albanian section. Hence its article was named Vjosa a few years ago. The "conflict" with Bosnia's Buna and the "Ada Bojana problem" are not arguments based on WP:NCRIVER. Idk how your home wiki works, but here on enwiki there are some naming conventions that prevail over personal opinions.
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in MonteneroYou mean Montenegro? The first half of the river is entirely in Albania, and the other half is both in Montenegro and Albania, as it forms part of the border between the two countries. The closer can confirm this in the article or on GoogleMaps. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montene[g]ro, no matter of personal opinion or wisherand the fact also remains that all of the river is either in or on the border of Albania - whilst only most of it is on the border of Montenegro - in other words, it's objectively more Albanian than Montenegrin, no matter of personal opinion or wisher.
Ada Bojana problemactually is, because the name given to this article does not impact the Ada Bojana article (it would retain the Montenegrin name anyway, because that island is 100% Montenegrin - and links to Bojana (river) within that article would still function as expected).
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montenero, no matter of personal opinion or wisher" is not factual. A simple look on any map will show that the river itself from near Shkodër up until the village of Samrisht i Poshtëm, close to the border is entirely within Albania. The river below Samrisht i Poshtem to the Adriatic Sea is split between Montenegro (west bank) and Albania (east bank). Combined, Albania has more of the river within its frontiers than Montenegro by 3 (both banks in the northern half, eastern bank southern half) to 1 (only southern western bank). "
Neither river name is more popular than the other, and thus status quo should remain" the river is surrounded by a compact and dense population of Albanian speaking people with Albanian identity, mostly Catholic a few Muslim, even after Montenegro acquired its present border in the area during its territorial expansions/conquests in 1878 and 1912-1913. On both sides of the border, local Albanians use the form Buna, not Bojana. Resnjari ( talk) 04:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
So, I noticed that this article currently discusses the etymology for the Albanian name of the river (Buna/Bunë), but says absolutely nothing about the Montenegrin name (Bojana/Бојана). Was the river simply named after the given name
Bojana? Or did it have a completely different origin - I did stumble upon
this blatantly non-authoritative source which suggests another origin which could be credible from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s.”
(although the suggested etymology of 'being derived from
Bayan I' probably isn't the case, seeing as he was based elsewhere).
Anywho, reason I'm bringing this up here is because I'm assuming that the authoritative sources on the matter are probably in Montenegrin or Serbian or something like that, and, well, I have no idea how to read any Balkan language. But, whilst there's still some activity here on the talk page, I may as well see if anyone here who does know what they're talking about can lend a hand to fill in this missing information. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 ( talk・ edits) 15:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s.If that Latin term does exist, that's the most convincing etymological attempt for an explanation of the name that I've come across. It's semantically impossible for a river to be named " battle -ana" or so. Names always make sense, this attempted Slavic/Celtic mediation does not, especially when the tribe in question that allegedly has given the name to Bojana and Voiotia has never set foot in (let alone seen) Albanian territories.
It's semantically impossible for a river to be named "battle -ana" or so. Well, there is also the hypothesis that it could have been named after the given name Bojana (Бојана). (Бојана (Bojana) is the feminine version of Bojan (Бојан), which in turn comes from Бој (Battle)). Could it have been named after someone called Bojana (like how there's a lake in Africa and a river in Canada called Victoria)? (Genuinely no idea myself, and ofc no real evidence either way for either etymology, and just putting this train of thought out here for devil's advocate-y reasons so we don't just blindly follow an etymology which isn't supported by actual evidence) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 ( talk・ edits) 02:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Klasen E.I. in his book New materials for the ancient history of the Slavs in general and the Slavic-Russians of the pre-Rurik period in particular with a light outline of the history of the Russians before the Nativity of Christ mentions that the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honor. Albanian E. Çabeju mentions that the name Bojana comes from the Albanian version of Buna, but that it also relies on the given name Bojan. Bulgarian Petkanov believes that both names are derived from the Latin toponym Boviana. Some believe that the name is derived from an appellative Boiana in Romansh and that the given names Bojan and Bojana originated from it. It is also mentioned that the name Bojana is older because the Slavs entered the city of Durrhachium in 546, while the Albanians from today's Romania settled those areas in the 10th century. -- Vux33 ( talk) 06:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honordo not tell me you are talking about that Homer. He certainly was not named "Bojan"... Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I would propose to come back to the proposal on naming using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) where it is very clear, it does not matter how a place was called once, but how it is officially called today. Having that in mind, I think there is clear evidence that Buna in Albania (where most of it flows) is officially called that: Bunë. No doubt, it is important to note that in Montenegro the river is called Bojana, this should be clearly stated in the article itself. But, considering that only a very small part of the this river flows in Montenegro it sounds reasonable not to be the main name for the article. Anna Comnena ( talk) 17:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Resnjari: You proposed during the RM that Buna (Adriatic) is a more suitable name than the longer, current Buna (Adriatic Sea). Others said they were OK with that during the RM discussion. If nobody shows opposition to it in a few days, I think we can make the move as an uncontroversial one. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to the Balkans or Eastern Europe, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
On 23 February 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved from Bojana (river) to Buna (Adriatic Sea). The result of the discussion was moved. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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|
|
This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 1 section is present. |
Why would a river that flows in albanian land then forms the border between Albania and Montenegro have the slavic name? RoyalHeritageAlb ( talk) 13:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
Bojana (river) → Buna (river) – Buna/Bojana is a river which flows from northern Albania to the Adriatic Sea. Half of its course is entirely within Albania and in the next half, it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Arguments in favor of a move to Buna:
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the nameBuna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. The name Buna is used for all sections of the river, while the name Bojana only for part it.
If no name can be shown to be widely accepted in English, use the local name. If more than one local name exists, follow the procedure explained below under Multiple local names.The local name for over 98% of communities living along the Buna is Albanian both as an official and as a local name. Bojana is used as the official name in Montenegro, but Ulcinj municipality is an Albanian minority area. As such, both Bojana and Buna are co-official in the section which forms the border with Montenegro.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
If everything else is equal, then choose the name for the section of the river closest to the river's mouth, since generally that is where the river is widest. The mouth of the Bojana is on the Adriatic Sea, close to the island of Ada Bojana. As per WP:COMMONNAME, Ada Bojana 1.500 is a lot more common than it's alternative name Ishulli i Bunës 63. Given the discrepancies, a change would not be beneficial as a clear deciding solution can not be deduced. ElderZamzam ( talk) 02:05, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
If everything else is equalin NCRIVER refers to
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name. If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.I argued why the second point leads to Buna as the article's title.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 18:25, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
Buna is entirely within Albania and half of its course forms the border between Albania and Montenegro, is self-contradictory: is the Bojana-Buna entirely within Albania or is half of its course shared between Albania and Montenegro? In fact, of its 41 km, 25, or more than half, are located between Albania and Montenegro, which does not make it a river exclusive to Albania.
A river which is mostly located in Montenegro on within its border- Well, the river is also entirely located within Albania or on the Albanian border. It starts from the Albanian side of Lake Skadar, flows through Albania for about 20km, and the final 24km forms part of the Montenegro/Albania border. All 44km of the river is within/bordering Albania, whilst only 24km of it borders Montenegro.
mostly located in Montenegroas their key argument for opposing the RM. During its first 20km the river is located entirely within Albania and during its lower course (24km) it forms the border between Albania and Montenegro. Support/Oppose votes need to be based on wikipedia's policies and reliable sources. Wikipedia is not a democracy and we don't generate consensus via voting, but via discussion based on our policies. If someone (doesn't) agree(s) with the proposal but can't argue about their position based on any policy, then they shouldn't vote because such votes will likely be dismissed by experienced editors who will close the RM.-- Maleschreiber ( talk) 00:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
n[o]t a real conflict with Buna (Neretva)? If the Albanian/Montenegrin river didn't exist then Buna (Neretva) would be at Buna (river)? Neither river is so much more popular than the other that partial disambiguation is warranted. * Pppery * it has begun... 17:07, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
if the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name. Also important is the fact that Buna is the local and native name for 99% of the population living along the river - the Albanians who live along the river on Montenegro’s side do not say “Bojana”. As for the oppose votes, it’s disappointing to see the lack of policy-based arguments and some blatant mistakes. The river is not located "mostly" in Montenegro. It's located in Albania 45% (20 km) and 55% (24 km) is the Albanian-Montenegrin border. The other !oppose argument about Ada Bojana doesn't change WP:NCRIVER's stipulations. Ada Bojana is a very small “island” of only 4.81 km2 in size within Montenegro and functions as a small tourist resort, but its name - which is a matter of official naming in Montenegro - doesn't impact the name of the river itself outside Montenegro. Botushali ( talk) 21:08, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
The following rules are suggested for choosing a primary name for such a river:
If the river is particularly famous or most commonly mentioned under one name, then choose that name.
If the section of the river that uses a particular name is much longer than other sections, then use that as the name.
The rationale applied on Vjosa in late 2021 should apply here as well. There is no clear common name in English, as Buna and Bojana are more or less equal, i.e. there is not a clear case that one is considerably more used than the other. Hence the second condition applies. The section of the river that uses the Albanian name is roughly twice longer, because Albanian is official and a local language in all of the rivers' course. Montenegrin on the other hand is official and locally spoken only in the second half of the course - even there the vast majority of the population speaks Albanian as per the Ulcinj Municipality article, and only a minority speaks Montenegrin. WP:NCRIVER allows Buna (river) and precedents are mentioned there and by an editor above. However, per WP:NCRIVER Buna (Adratic Sea) is more suitable. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 13:39, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
A river can be identified uniquely as a tributary of another river, e.g., Rio Puerco (Rio Grande tributary).(also Churchill River (Atlantic))
If a river with an ambiguous name empties directly into a lake or definable sea, then the name of that body of water could follow in parentheses, e.g., Churchill River (Hudson Bay).
Neither river name is more popular than the otherIndeed. And as per WP:NCRIVER, in such a case the name used for the longest section should be used as the article's name. A river shared between Greece and Albania is named "Aoos" in the Greek section, and "Vjosa" in the longer, Albanian section. Hence its article was named Vjosa a few years ago. The "conflict" with Bosnia's Buna and the "Ada Bojana problem" are not arguments based on WP:NCRIVER. Idk how your home wiki works, but here on enwiki there are some naming conventions that prevail over personal opinions.
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in MonteneroYou mean Montenegro? The first half of the river is entirely in Albania, and the other half is both in Montenegro and Albania, as it forms part of the border between the two countries. The closer can confirm this in the article or on GoogleMaps. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 22:15, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montene[g]ro, no matter of personal opinion or wisherand the fact also remains that all of the river is either in or on the border of Albania - whilst only most of it is on the border of Montenegro - in other words, it's objectively more Albanian than Montenegrin, no matter of personal opinion or wisher.
Ada Bojana problemactually is, because the name given to this article does not impact the Ada Bojana article (it would retain the Montenegrin name anyway, because that island is 100% Montenegrin - and links to Bojana (river) within that article would still function as expected).
The fact remains that most of river Bojana is in Montenero, no matter of personal opinion or wisher" is not factual. A simple look on any map will show that the river itself from near Shkodër up until the village of Samrisht i Poshtëm, close to the border is entirely within Albania. The river below Samrisht i Poshtem to the Adriatic Sea is split between Montenegro (west bank) and Albania (east bank). Combined, Albania has more of the river within its frontiers than Montenegro by 3 (both banks in the northern half, eastern bank southern half) to 1 (only southern western bank). "
Neither river name is more popular than the other, and thus status quo should remain" the river is surrounded by a compact and dense population of Albanian speaking people with Albanian identity, mostly Catholic a few Muslim, even after Montenegro acquired its present border in the area during its territorial expansions/conquests in 1878 and 1912-1913. On both sides of the border, local Albanians use the form Buna, not Bojana. Resnjari ( talk) 04:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
So, I noticed that this article currently discusses the etymology for the Albanian name of the river (Buna/Bunë), but says absolutely nothing about the Montenegrin name (Bojana/Бојана). Was the river simply named after the given name
Bojana? Or did it have a completely different origin - I did stumble upon
this blatantly non-authoritative source which suggests another origin which could be credible from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s.”
(although the suggested etymology of 'being derived from
Bayan I' probably isn't the case, seeing as he was based elsewhere).
Anywho, reason I'm bringing this up here is because I'm assuming that the authoritative sources on the matter are probably in Montenegrin or Serbian or something like that, and, well, I have no idea how to read any Balkan language. But, whilst there's still some activity here on the talk page, I may as well see if anyone here who does know what they're talking about can lend a hand to fill in this missing information. 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 ( talk・ edits) 15:12, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
from the Vulgar Latin or the Balkan Latin “*boiana” (herdsman’s [river]), from the Latin “boviana,” meaning “herdsman’s.If that Latin term does exist, that's the most convincing etymological attempt for an explanation of the name that I've come across. It's semantically impossible for a river to be named " battle -ana" or so. Names always make sense, this attempted Slavic/Celtic mediation does not, especially when the tribe in question that allegedly has given the name to Bojana and Voiotia has never set foot in (let alone seen) Albanian territories.
It's semantically impossible for a river to be named "battle -ana" or so. Well, there is also the hypothesis that it could have been named after the given name Bojana (Бојана). (Бојана (Bojana) is the feminine version of Bojan (Бојан), which in turn comes from Бој (Battle)). Could it have been named after someone called Bojana (like how there's a lake in Africa and a river in Canada called Victoria)? (Genuinely no idea myself, and ofc no real evidence either way for either etymology, and just putting this train of thought out here for devil's advocate-y reasons so we don't just blindly follow an etymology which isn't supported by actual evidence) 🔥HOTm̵̟͆e̷̜̓s̵̼̊s̸̜̃🔥 ( talk・ edits) 02:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Klasen E.I. in his book New materials for the ancient history of the Slavs in general and the Slavic-Russians of the pre-Rurik period in particular with a light outline of the history of the Russians before the Nativity of Christ mentions that the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honor. Albanian E. Çabeju mentions that the name Bojana comes from the Albanian version of Buna, but that it also relies on the given name Bojan. Bulgarian Petkanov believes that both names are derived from the Latin toponym Boviana. Some believe that the name is derived from an appellative Boiana in Romansh and that the given names Bojan and Bojana originated from it. It is also mentioned that the name Bojana is older because the Slavs entered the city of Durrhachium in 546, while the Albanians from today's Romania settled those areas in the 10th century. -- Vux33 ( talk) 06:51, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
the Bojana river was probably named after given name Bojan, explaining that this was the name of Homer and that the river was named in his honordo not tell me you are talking about that Homer. He certainly was not named "Bojan"... Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:27, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I would propose to come back to the proposal on naming using Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) where it is very clear, it does not matter how a place was called once, but how it is officially called today. Having that in mind, I think there is clear evidence that Buna in Albania (where most of it flows) is officially called that: Bunë. No doubt, it is important to note that in Montenegro the river is called Bojana, this should be clearly stated in the article itself. But, considering that only a very small part of the this river flows in Montenegro it sounds reasonable not to be the main name for the article. Anna Comnena ( talk) 17:54, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
@ Resnjari: You proposed during the RM that Buna (Adriatic) is a more suitable name than the longer, current Buna (Adriatic Sea). Others said they were OK with that during the RM discussion. If nobody shows opposition to it in a few days, I think we can make the move as an uncontroversial one. Ktrimi991 ( talk) 14:17, 16 April 2024 (UTC)