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This article contains a translation of Arqueología bíblica from es.wikipedia. |
Göbekli Tepe has nothing to do with biblical archaeology. I've gone back to the orginal lead as I think 'biblical world' is open to too many interpretations. Dougweller ( talk) 15:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Apparently ( see above) the Christian archaeology article was already merged into this one once. But it (again?) exists as a separate article, and is fairly substantial. If Christian archaeology is a genuine, New Testament-focused sub-discipline of Biblical archaeology (and my oh-so-scientific survey of one archaeologist suggests that it's not), that article needs to be heavily rewritten to make it clearly subordinate to this one. If not, it needs to be redirected here and any useful content merged into this article. -- Perey ( talk) 13:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Let me just clear up the overwhelming tilt the overcitation of Dever seems to be creating in this article. First, neither Dever nor any other archaeologist in Israel suggests that most of the Bible (Old Testament/Hebrew Bible) is ahistorical in its entirety. This is perfectly shown by a broadcast on April 24, 2000 between Dever, Gerald Steinberg (politican studies professor) and Ze'ev Herzog, an expert archaeologist and professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Herzog says the following:
"We should distinguish within the biblical literature and documentation between two periods. First, the period of the monarchies of Judah and Israel from the ninth century to the sixth century is well-documented, both in archaeological and in documents from neighbouring countries, mainly Assyrian and this chapter in history as well is grounded in both sources and there is no debate about its historicity. The discussion is about the earlier phases which we would call a protohistory of the Israelites, the episodes in Egypt, the wandering in Sinai, the very story of the patriarchs, the military conquest. And all these events, which are described in detail in the biblical stories, appear to be contradicting. Not the absence of evidence, but very detailed investigations of archaeology over the last 70 years, which presents factual evidence different from the biblical one, basically showing that the population which later was developed into the states of Judah and Israel, originally orientated from within the country, did not come from Egypt, or from any other place." [2]
But if he's really willing to stretch the rubber band to the last 70 years (twice as much as what Dever gives who considers the end of biblical archaeology's conservative tyranny to have ended in the last generation - Biblical Archaeological Review, Vol. 32 Mar/Apr), has he not read David Noel Freedman and Edward F. Campbell's, The Biblical Archaeologist Reader? In Volume 2 (1964), I paraphrase the following remarkably accurate, historical confirmations of the earliest traditions about the Patriarchs in Genesis:
1. The names Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph are typical names of the period and places. (The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol.2, p.16)
2. Sarah gives Hagar, a concubine, to Abraham due to her own infertility. This was exactly what the custom was there at the time. Although Eliezer was a slave of Abraham's, he was his heir, just like in those times. (Ibid., p.22). The custom was that if the wife would have a child, the servant-woman who had children should not be exiled, which is why Abraham was so upset with Sarah. (p.23)
3. The Hurrians (biblical sons of Hamor/Horites) were the nobles of Western Asian cities (i.e. Shechem), thus how Shechem was able to convince the entire town to circumcise themselves so he would have a bride.
4. The blessing of Isaac upon Jacob was legally binding even in a literate society like Mari! Also, a similar case exists in the documents of Mari to Esau's selling of his birthright for a bowl of soup - a brother had sold his inheritance for three sheep, no doubt induced by similarly dire circumstances that were exploited by the other brother. (Ibid. pp.23-24, 27).
5. The situation with Laban and Jacob's toil under him as well as every detail of the story completely matches the situation of the time. (pp.25ff.)
Many more examples exist that completely contradict the general impression Dever et al try to create with their assessment. If the traditions got so many cultural details that wouldn't have existed in their own time right, how is it that they practiced "creative writing" with much of the proto-history of Israel? On the one hand Herzog admits the historical picture (for which he says we have plenty of archaeology and history) is not under question for 900-500 BC, on the other hand there was a mythology-spree for the history of 900 BC and earlier even though much of the customs are confirmed!
But what of other events such as the Exodus and the Conquest? In the case of the Exodus, the ancients were not in a habit of recording their losses and often turned them into victories (so the chroniclers of Shalmaneser III regarding the Battle of Qarqar which he most certainly lost - Ibid. p.158). Secondly, one cannot expect archaeological evidence in the case of a nomadic, non-sedentary people as the Hebrews were for a mere 40 years during the Exodus. This is perfectly exemplified with the origin of the Ammonites. Hence, George M. Landes writes in, 'The Material Civilization of the Ammonites' (p.70): "The biblical tradition that the Ammonites, along with their brothers the Moabites, originated in southern Transjordan (near Zoar, cf. Gen. 19:30) can probably never be demonstrated historically, since in all probability they began as nomadic clans who would leave behind little or no evidence of their existence." It is of course no different with the Exodus.
What about the Conquest? First, the reason why the situation is said to contradict the Bible is because the Conquest is dated to the late 13th century BC, instead of the early 14th! The evidence fits the Bible much better if we assume a 15th/14th century BC. As for the general impression given by the lack of specifically Israelite pottery and objects in Canaan is because the Israelites had no such original culture - they would have been thoroughly saturated of the Semitic and Canaanite influence of the Goshen already. The same is the case with early Christian artwork which is indistinguishable from Greco-Roman artwork because that's the culture the Christians inherited culturally!
In the same BAR article, Dever writes, "Monotheism may have been the ideal of Biblical writers, but many, if not most, Israelites throughout the Monarchy were polytheists."
This is no secret even in the Bible that the Israelites frequently abandoned the Israelite religion for Canaanite religions. Even Solomon succumbed to this in the beginning of his reign (1 Kings 3:2-3). One can still hear the Old Testament lament of how only Israel abandoned their religion. But it's quite a different story to suggest the original religion was polytheistic. Had this been the case there would have never been a monotheistic cultic center in Jerusalem or Bible! The few obscure references one can strain in the Old Testament as signs of polytheism cannot account for a polytheistic origin that was replaced, especially as late as the "waning monarchy" of Ze'ev Herzog. When Akhenaten attempted to merely bring to prominence one deity exclusively (but not even attempt to eliminate the rest of the gods), after his death his changes were forcefully reversed to the point that he was given a Damnatio Memoriae by the follow Pharaoh. A pharaoh, who was considered a divine incarnation of a god was completely shunned from Egyptian history and the public mindset for merely attempting something like this - who could have gotten away with this in Israel and the endless polytheistic Israelites? The constant external pressures that Judah faced from c.900 BC - 500 BC completely rule out a strong centralized system that could have changed the entire already established and centralized cultic system at Judah that certainly wouldn't have allowed something like this and keep it so for generations. Proof of this is the consistent stubbornness of the Israelite population itself! Thus Dever's statement that the Biblical writers had a monotheistic ideal completely falls apart on itself - these writers were ISRAelites themselves who would have preferred the same thing as the Israelites if the Judaic cult's origin was polytheistic (they would have certainly known this as in the case of Akhenaten it was known that the Egyptians had many powerful deities, not just one strong one). If the Judaic cult had major problems bringing and keeping the majority of people under monotheism, how can some monotheistic movement or force be powerful enough to come, being extremely unpopular, replace the cult with monotheism, and keep it that way in the face of the Israelites? Royal support? But none of the kings are recorded as being anti-pagan and removing the high places, except three: David, Hezekiah, and Josiah! It is completely impossible!
Perhaps some of this information should be at least obliquely reflected in the article and not make it seem like archaeology is basically the Bible's worst nightmare! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renassault ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
If a Google search is any guide, the term "Biblical Archaeology" is rarely used except by self styled "Biblical Archaeologists" and "Bible Historians" and suchlike. I did find "biblical archaeology, which seeks evidence and explanation for events described in the Bible" Society for American Archaeology.
As evidenced by the Expert commentaries section, the definition and "scientific" nature of biblical archaeology is controversial. This is not reflected in the intro and "Archaeology" sections, which are based entirely on the opinions of Biblical Archaeologists and their proponents. Keith McClary ( talk) 20:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel like Cline's Table 2 in Biblical Archaeology: A Very Short Introduction (2009; 33-34) would be a better and more up-to-date source than Mercer's Dictionary of the Bible (1990) for the relative dating time periods used in Syro-Palestinian Archaeology. That said, I was a student of Cline's and have worked with him a lot, so I don't want to sound like I'm biased. That said, I do think this would be a good edit to make as the current one is out-of-date (it's almost as old as I am!) and it doesn't really make sense in the MB section. It was based on Mazar's Table 2 in Archaeology of the Land of the Bible - 10,000–586 B.C.E. (1992; 30), but has been updated to reflect the views of 2009 (at least his view as confusion over this dating system is an ever-present mess). Does anyone have any objections? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 11 Shevat 5775 06:06, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
From what I can see, the list of digs hasn't been updated in almost seven years. If BAR's Find a Dig is any indication, this list needs quite a bit of work. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Shevat 5775 15:13, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
A lot of stuff needs to be added. More, and more evidence keeps getting dug up. The anti-semitic attitudes, and bible naysayers have held everything back far too long. You cannot ignore what is right in front of your eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.192.14.161 ( talk) 18:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I think we should break it up into six linked pages. First we separate the secular Israel Finkelstein type interpretations from the purely biblical interpretations. Then we separate the history into three phases as (pre-Iron Age), (Age I, IIA, IIB, IIC), (Exile to Roman/Christian).
The list of "unknown or disproved" items contradicts what is written in the article about these items (see Jehoash inscription and James ossuary for example). It seems that the situation is not as clear as this article wants us to believe. Do you also think that the article should be changed to reflect the uncertain status of these objects? Alæxis ¿question? 20:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I think in her open lecture series Christine Hayes addressed this, stating that "Biblical archaeology" was a term used by people who tended toward credulity in the early part of the twentieth century, but recently there has been a shift to "archaeology of the ancient Near East" or "archaeology of the Levant". I'll check later (it's probably about ten hours in to the lectures...). But even a quick Googling supports the same conclusion: in .ac.uk domains we find that Oxford University names its course on the subject "Archaeology of the Bible Lands", and its recommended reading includes a book called The rise and fall of Biblical Archaeology, King's College London considers "the history of the study of so-called ‘Biblical archaeology’", and other results appear to favour "Near Eastern Archaeology" and so on; in .edu domains the only result on the first page that has "Biblical Archaeology" in a course name is from Wheaton College. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 01:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
The lecture was Lecture 6, roughly from 04:00 to 08:00, especially the first thirty seconds of that block, but especially the last thirty seconds. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 06:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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The Shroud of Turin does NOT belong under "disproved" artifacts, as there is NO CONSENSUS amongst scholars regarding the authenticity of the Shroud, and therefore a Wikipedia page claiming the Shroud of Turin is fake, and dismissing the ongoing battle in academia on its validity, is the equivalent of Wikipedia saying the academia of philosophy has concluded that God exists and completely hand-waving the numerous publications in philosophy arguing against God and only mentioning the ones for it. There have been many publications that have significantly razed off the validity of the Radio carbon dating performed on the Shroud, including this one -- http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch3.html, this one -- http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF, and not to mention the fact that there are have literally been conducted EIGHT different major dating tests on the Shroud, not one being the C14 dating, and all the other datings conform to a 1st century AD dating compiled here -- http://www.magiscenter.com/pdf/Science_and_the_Shroud_of_Turin.pdf -- it always amazes me that discussion on the Shroud always focuses on the one dating that is against it, even though there have been many flaws shown in the C14 dating test (as cited earlier) such as contamination. There is no agreement whatsoever amongst scholars on the validity of the Shroud, and simply going through the research publications on the Shroud at shroud.com will show exactly that, overwhelming debate and probably more support for it then against it. Either way, we should remove the Shroud from "disproved" Biblical artifacts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Korvex ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It seems clearly crazy to me that this page only mentions the Carbon dating tests that confirm Kenyon's dating of the destruction of Jericho but doesn't mention any of the carbon dating tests contradicting it. The carbon dating tests are all over the place when it comes to Jericho. There's one that puts it in the 17th century BC, on that puts it in the 13th century BC, and one that puts it even in the time of the conquest in accordance with the Bible! There are two that conform to Kenyon's dating. Why are the pro-Kenyon ones only noted? I propose an edit where all carbon datings are mentioned. Korvex ( talk) 01:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Well now I'm even more confused. You wrote that "quite literally about half of the leading scholars in archaeology are literally Biblical scholars". I don't understand that. It is obviously untrue that even anywhere near half of the leading scholars in archaeology are even interested in biblical archaeology. I obviously don't know what point you were making, but it is certainly the case that the names you mention weren't all archaeologists. Minor thing, I'm pretty sure Trinite was only found in the Trinity crater in Arizona & not in Japan - because Trinity was a ground level explosion, the others were bombs dropped from planes. This glass is supposedly similar, like the Libyan desert glass. Collins suggests a comet strike in his book. I presume you've read this and this. And his numerous credentials don't prove he's a great archaeologist. His PhD (not in archaeology) seems to have come from an unaccredited school specialising in distance learning. You'll like this link. Wood may well be nice, why not? But I haven't read any personal info about him. Doug Weller talk 18:00, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Some scholars from the list Siefert added at Biblical archaeology actually lived before the minimalism-maximalism debate. So, it is anachronistic to call them either minimalists or maximalists. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
About the author of that dubious list: his only credential seems to be being actual or former Christadelphian. That's not much to go by. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
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This isn't a good way to write an article. Who decides what goes here? Editors. It's a form of original research and ends up a bit of a quote farm. Doug Weller talk 19:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
anti-"literal Bible" POVis mainstream scholarship POV. But I agree that the article needs a lot of work. — Paleo Neonate – 15:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The end of the section quotes "Evangelical Old Testament scholar Walter C. Kaiser Jr." who seems to be more of a theologian than archaeologist. I understand it was probably included to get the maximalist opinion, but that has really become a fringe view at this point. If the maximalist position is to be included, it should come from more of a subject mater expert, like Kenneth Kitchen. Yaakovaryeh ( talk) 17:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Based on Wikipedia's editorial perspective and standards, is it best that this article not inform WP readers about Associates for Biblical Research,
https://biblearchaeology.org, the most well known biblical-literalist archaeology organization? Their founder:
- PhD in archaeology from Andrews U.
Various staff have:
- masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard
- masters from Baltimore Hebrew U., thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine
- M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto
- etc. etc.
So is it better our readers don't learn here about this popular group, or should we put an External Link, something like:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Great question. Thanks for asking Doug. From WP:EL "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
The Bible, however, plainly teaches that man was created fully formed and with a sophisticated intellect right at the beginning of creation (Mk 10:6, Gn 1:27). When God decided to judge the world because of its great wickedness (Gn 6:7, 2 Pt 2:4–5), Noah and seven others from his family were spared in the Ark. All human beings alive today are descendants of Noah’s family. If this fact of history is rejected, once again false conclusions will be drawn.
— Henry B. Smith, Jr., Bible and Spade, Fall 2006, Vol. 19, No. 4, p. 97
Most of the dinosaurs were simply unable to survive the adverse environmental conditions that existed after they left the Ark.
— loc. cit.
Hey Tgeorgescuc. Thanks for telling me that. I don't know who's using that term but if by it you're reiterating that ABR is an unreliable source, that doesn't at all undermine my argument for this link based on WP:EL as excerpted above. And I still would like to know if you or Zero or another editor will consider restoring that link. Thanks! Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 14:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for those thoughts Zero. Aside from your worthwhile suggestion, what you've added to the External Link discussion is that it would look more like an advertisement. From some perspectives, undoubtedly, but is that the decisive policy standard? I believe the applicable policy standard from WP:EL is that External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." By WP's standard, I'm asking again if one of you will restore the link. Thanks. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 15:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Hey Zero. You've added another contribution to the discussion, "We link to religious groups sometimes when those groups are the subject of an article". Yes, but that's not the policy under discussion here. The policy discussed here specifically regards sources WP views as unreliable for topics that the unreliable source may nonetheless contain information about the subject of the article. Again from WP:EL the External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." If the contribution you just offered was the policy under discussion, it would read "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet [are the subject of the article]." The policy here doesn't read that way though and you may not agree with the existing WP policy but this isn't the place to change it. And because the policy is exactly on target and appears supportive of adding this external link, I'll ask if one of you guys might reconsider and restore the link? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The Bible is the voice of God, not the voice of scientists. If we want the voice of scientists, we ask the scientists. Most of them do advocate the Big Bang, abiogenesis, and evolution as the most visible means of how the world came to be. Whether or not this was God's doing is up to the reader to decide. If the scientists are mistaken, this has to be shown to them on their own grounds, which anti-evolution folks are not really doing, because they are not reading up on the same literature, they are not using the same standards and experiments, and they are not speaking in the same circles nor getting published in the same journals. If it does not walk like a duck, does not talk like a duck, and avoids ducks like the plague, there is little reason to assume its a duck. Or scientist, in this case. I'm not saying the anti-evolution folks are wrong, I'm just saying that they are not mainstream scientists. This is why they're not consulted for the voice of scientists. Now, they can be consulted for what they think if their views are notable.
— User:Ian.thomson
Hi Tgeorgescu. Your "book" i.e., WP's
Fringe theories content guideline, has no reference to what we're discussing here, that is, can a particular unreliable source qualify as an external link in an article. It also has no definition of, and no mention of "knowledgeable" people, nor of archaeology for that matter. Your link has only one reference on the page to our topic, "External links", and that is to the
WP:EL that we've been discussing and I have been quoting from. Perhaps some editors would like to apply policies not related to the External Links section to external links sections. But that's a matter to be taken up elsewhere. Here, we are discussing whether ABR, an admittedly WP-judged fringe-theory and unreliable source, fits the WP policy to be an External Link in this "Biblical archaeology" article. So for that, the first relevant question to ask is, can ABR by the
WP:EL policy qualify as an External Link "to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." The External Link that has been removed is to a website populated by "knowledgeable sources" on biblical archaeology, that is, it's run by a PhD in archaeology from Andrews U with staffers who have a masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard, a masters from Baltimore Hebrew U. with a thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine, M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto, etc. I'm thankful that you and Zero are helping to work through this, but I'm wondering if it might be more constructive if we keep extraneous topics and policies out of the discussion and try to come to a consensus based on Wikipedia's External Links Policies. I don't quite know the etiquette in this situation, as to whether it's rude to ask a question in more than three iterations, so in case it is, I'll change it up. Realizing that at any given time there are very few people reading this Talk page and this section of the talk page, nonetheless I'll ask. Is there a Wikipedian here who will undo the deletion of this External Link? Or, for that matter, re-enter something along the lines of:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 22:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
A Christian Apologetics Ministry Dedicated to Demonstrating the Historical Reliability of the Bible through Archaeological and Biblical Researchdoes "contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" that should be brought to our readers' attention. If their tag had been "Dedicated to Examining"...or researching or exploring, etc...there would be a possibility that their site was about the science, but "demonstrating" clearly indicates a pre-selected outcome which their information will be selected to support. The link that you're proposing falls into Links to be considered. It looks like multiple editors have considered it and think it is inappropriate to add, as do I. Schazjmd (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Schazjmd. You list two objections. The primary objection, as I think we can see here, is your objection that ABR is an unreliable source. But this is a given throughout my attempt to apply policy to restore this removed link. You say if they were a group that had the mission you describe, of "examining" rather than "demonstrating", that might make them acceptable here, but by imagining that change, we would be pushing them (in our imagination) toward being a "reliable" source. That's why I'm saying that your main objection regards what has been admitted throughout, whereas the policy permits using unreliable sources as external links. Further, the fact that their mission makes them a de facto unreliable source for WP does not mean that they don't present throughout their (disapproved of) work extensive information "about the science of archaeology related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'." Their staffers have authored many research works in mainstream publications and conferences, and of course they use that work also on their own site. So it seems manifestly false that ABR does not qualify as a WP unreliable source that contains extensive information about the science of archaeology "related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'". That leaves us with your second objection. For then as you indicate, the few editors here who have weighed in don't support restoring the link. However, I don't take those few editors as sufficiently representive to give up on the recommendation that we add this single external link to a related unreliable source in this (if printed out) 15-page article. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 00:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Wanting to bring into this discussion the use of Wikipedia as an outlet to publicly debunk fringe is understandable, but I urge us to keep passions out of what should be an as-objective-as-possible discussion to evaluate whether WP policy WP:EL merits here an unreliable source external link. Others may consider an ABR article. But I do think you get closer to our policy disagreement Doug when you suggest a possibly "good idea" of a section here on Creationist archaeology. I realize it's harder to use an external link as a debunking outlet, but that doesn't trump the WP EL policy. There is the option of working to modify WP policy, but as it stands, restoring the link is the action that overtly complies with WP:EL. Might one of you do that while Doug considers that new section? 2601:280:5B7F:8708:B14F:300F:A11C:8626 ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link.Your justification has not convinced any other editor to agree with you (yet). You may want to invite editors from related Wikipedia projects to weigh in, in order to get wider input. Schazjmd (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello Schazjmd, you're correct of course that there's no consensus but on the viewpoint separating us it seems we are making progress and in an important way getting closer together. Taking your latest comment as an indicator of where we're at, we' have moved from an ABR External Link being in violation of WP guidelines to such a link being within guidelines but not within consensus. These examples and summary of the objections shows how much progress that is:
- Just in your previous post from 15 hours earlier you said "your objection is that this is an article about science". The WP:EL doesn't exclude science articles, and if you think it should, you could propose that change there, but enforcing that personal bias regarding the guideline here doesn't seem appropriate.
- Doug had just said such a link "is not appropriate" but by the WP guideline as Schazjmd has admitted it clearly is; the question now is can there be consensus. Doug, you could help build that consensus by reconsidering.
- Tgeorgescu, even though the link was being argued for as an unreliable source, pulled Bible quotes from ABR apparently to prove it was an unreliable source, illustrating as throughout the above that the objections are mostly based on emotion about ABR rather than on the WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu writes of ABR's material, "ain't gonna pass through peer-review in any academic journal worth its salt" and "This is even better", better that is, for showing ABR to be an unreliable source, but not better, or even relevant, to applying the guideline.
- Tgeorgescu writes, "for the true believer, the above quotes are sublime truths; for the rest of us they are ridiculous rants" overtly showing that some objection to this particular external link is based on emotion, such that an appeal to the guidelines might have a very hard time getting a fair hearing.
- Zero then offered a clearly false assessment, for regardless of the ABR site representing WP "fringe" and being unreliable, he claimed the ABR staffers are not "knowledgeable" about the field. (That's like claiming the 18% of US MDs who believe that "God created humans exactly as they appear now", or the hundreds of thousands of other MDs who believe God guided our origin, are not knowledgeable about their fields.)
- Tgeorgescu volunteered something that then Zero disagreed with, "Let me tell you something: 'biblical archaeologist' is a label meant to express mockery". I hope this summary list can help you guys see that there's way more emotion and bias coming out from the "anti-link" side than the pro-link (my) side, and that I've been the one arguing for applying WP guidelines against unreasonably biased objections.
- Zero then objected to the link because it "would look more like an advertisement" but that assessment doesn't seem WP guideline-based in the least but is understandable as bias-based.
- Zero's next comment feared a link to a "Christian Apologetics Ministry" with "young-Earth rubbish" would look like WP was "preach[ing]". But a single on-topic external link to an unreliable source (described as "biblical literalist") can't possibly amount to preaching, but that objection does illustrate that through our entire disagreement it's the anti-link side that's demonstrating motivation beyond a desire to apply WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu then refers to "our book" (i.e., WP's fringe parlance) and by that he gives the impression (to me anyway) that he'd like to intimidate into not participating in WP those with a different "book", presumably like Muslims, Jews, Christians, by his inserting an extended quote about the voice of God, not science, and talking like a duck and plagues and all, and he then speaks for all of WP pronouncing ABR as an unreliable source, which doesn't disqualify it under the guidline discussed here but qualifies it as an external link here by WP:EL which Doug first linked to.
- Doug suggested a section in the article on "Creationist archaeology" because he's always in favor of "publicly debunking fringe", but surely if that is plausible, than the anti-link folks should be able to set aside emotion and reconsider a single on-topic external link from a relevant WP-judged unreliable source.
- Finally Schazjmd you've come a long way when you state that there is no consensus over the EL but that WP:EL states that a link "of this type" is to be considered, and you add, of course, that WP:EL doesn't say that it MUST be included. Yes, agreed. But what our discussion has demonstrated is that the anti-link side brings a lot of emotion and bias against even a fair consideration of the link as WP-appropriate and article-relevant. So I think it would be good if an anti-link editor could overcome the evident bias throughout the above and reconsider restoring the link, something like this:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 15:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Schazjmd, first, thanks for answering my Help Desk question for my QM indeterminism edit. As for this unreliable source link, you guys, Doug Weller, Zero, Tgeorgescu, and you Schazjmd, are so conditioned to protect WP from fringe that it appears you've reflexively made yourselves unable to objectively consider an external link WP:EL unreliable source and merely have a knee-jerk reaction against what would be a perfectly appropriate application of Wikipedia guidelines. Many readers undoubtedly and for a wide-range of reasons would not want this article to unreasonably hide from them the existence of such an organization as you all are doing. I have much to learn about WP etiquette, so I'm not sure if it's bad behavior for me to go and reverse that edit and restore the link. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 13:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Okay then I'm done. The list of emotional arguments above and the move from such a link being outside of WP policy to it just lacking consensus I think demonstrate the subjectivity. And I do think WP readers of this article are the losers to this result. Thanks though everyone for your time. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 23:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Wondering if we should create or is there a page on other religions archeology besides Christian based. Hinduism, Islamic, etc. There probably not alot of info on the subject, but we should have a page on Religious Archeology. Doremon764 ( talk) 22:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)
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Göbekli Tepe has nothing to do with biblical archaeology. I've gone back to the orginal lead as I think 'biblical world' is open to too many interpretations. Dougweller ( talk) 15:55, 19 July 2012 (UTC)
Apparently ( see above) the Christian archaeology article was already merged into this one once. But it (again?) exists as a separate article, and is fairly substantial. If Christian archaeology is a genuine, New Testament-focused sub-discipline of Biblical archaeology (and my oh-so-scientific survey of one archaeologist suggests that it's not), that article needs to be heavily rewritten to make it clearly subordinate to this one. If not, it needs to be redirected here and any useful content merged into this article. -- Perey ( talk) 13:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)
Let me just clear up the overwhelming tilt the overcitation of Dever seems to be creating in this article. First, neither Dever nor any other archaeologist in Israel suggests that most of the Bible (Old Testament/Hebrew Bible) is ahistorical in its entirety. This is perfectly shown by a broadcast on April 24, 2000 between Dever, Gerald Steinberg (politican studies professor) and Ze'ev Herzog, an expert archaeologist and professor of archaeology at The Department of Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Cultures at Tel Aviv University. Herzog says the following:
"We should distinguish within the biblical literature and documentation between two periods. First, the period of the monarchies of Judah and Israel from the ninth century to the sixth century is well-documented, both in archaeological and in documents from neighbouring countries, mainly Assyrian and this chapter in history as well is grounded in both sources and there is no debate about its historicity. The discussion is about the earlier phases which we would call a protohistory of the Israelites, the episodes in Egypt, the wandering in Sinai, the very story of the patriarchs, the military conquest. And all these events, which are described in detail in the biblical stories, appear to be contradicting. Not the absence of evidence, but very detailed investigations of archaeology over the last 70 years, which presents factual evidence different from the biblical one, basically showing that the population which later was developed into the states of Judah and Israel, originally orientated from within the country, did not come from Egypt, or from any other place." [2]
But if he's really willing to stretch the rubber band to the last 70 years (twice as much as what Dever gives who considers the end of biblical archaeology's conservative tyranny to have ended in the last generation - Biblical Archaeological Review, Vol. 32 Mar/Apr), has he not read David Noel Freedman and Edward F. Campbell's, The Biblical Archaeologist Reader? In Volume 2 (1964), I paraphrase the following remarkably accurate, historical confirmations of the earliest traditions about the Patriarchs in Genesis:
1. The names Abraham, Jacob, and Joseph are typical names of the period and places. (The Biblical Archaeologist, Vol.2, p.16)
2. Sarah gives Hagar, a concubine, to Abraham due to her own infertility. This was exactly what the custom was there at the time. Although Eliezer was a slave of Abraham's, he was his heir, just like in those times. (Ibid., p.22). The custom was that if the wife would have a child, the servant-woman who had children should not be exiled, which is why Abraham was so upset with Sarah. (p.23)
3. The Hurrians (biblical sons of Hamor/Horites) were the nobles of Western Asian cities (i.e. Shechem), thus how Shechem was able to convince the entire town to circumcise themselves so he would have a bride.
4. The blessing of Isaac upon Jacob was legally binding even in a literate society like Mari! Also, a similar case exists in the documents of Mari to Esau's selling of his birthright for a bowl of soup - a brother had sold his inheritance for three sheep, no doubt induced by similarly dire circumstances that were exploited by the other brother. (Ibid. pp.23-24, 27).
5. The situation with Laban and Jacob's toil under him as well as every detail of the story completely matches the situation of the time. (pp.25ff.)
Many more examples exist that completely contradict the general impression Dever et al try to create with their assessment. If the traditions got so many cultural details that wouldn't have existed in their own time right, how is it that they practiced "creative writing" with much of the proto-history of Israel? On the one hand Herzog admits the historical picture (for which he says we have plenty of archaeology and history) is not under question for 900-500 BC, on the other hand there was a mythology-spree for the history of 900 BC and earlier even though much of the customs are confirmed!
But what of other events such as the Exodus and the Conquest? In the case of the Exodus, the ancients were not in a habit of recording their losses and often turned them into victories (so the chroniclers of Shalmaneser III regarding the Battle of Qarqar which he most certainly lost - Ibid. p.158). Secondly, one cannot expect archaeological evidence in the case of a nomadic, non-sedentary people as the Hebrews were for a mere 40 years during the Exodus. This is perfectly exemplified with the origin of the Ammonites. Hence, George M. Landes writes in, 'The Material Civilization of the Ammonites' (p.70): "The biblical tradition that the Ammonites, along with their brothers the Moabites, originated in southern Transjordan (near Zoar, cf. Gen. 19:30) can probably never be demonstrated historically, since in all probability they began as nomadic clans who would leave behind little or no evidence of their existence." It is of course no different with the Exodus.
What about the Conquest? First, the reason why the situation is said to contradict the Bible is because the Conquest is dated to the late 13th century BC, instead of the early 14th! The evidence fits the Bible much better if we assume a 15th/14th century BC. As for the general impression given by the lack of specifically Israelite pottery and objects in Canaan is because the Israelites had no such original culture - they would have been thoroughly saturated of the Semitic and Canaanite influence of the Goshen already. The same is the case with early Christian artwork which is indistinguishable from Greco-Roman artwork because that's the culture the Christians inherited culturally!
In the same BAR article, Dever writes, "Monotheism may have been the ideal of Biblical writers, but many, if not most, Israelites throughout the Monarchy were polytheists."
This is no secret even in the Bible that the Israelites frequently abandoned the Israelite religion for Canaanite religions. Even Solomon succumbed to this in the beginning of his reign (1 Kings 3:2-3). One can still hear the Old Testament lament of how only Israel abandoned their religion. But it's quite a different story to suggest the original religion was polytheistic. Had this been the case there would have never been a monotheistic cultic center in Jerusalem or Bible! The few obscure references one can strain in the Old Testament as signs of polytheism cannot account for a polytheistic origin that was replaced, especially as late as the "waning monarchy" of Ze'ev Herzog. When Akhenaten attempted to merely bring to prominence one deity exclusively (but not even attempt to eliminate the rest of the gods), after his death his changes were forcefully reversed to the point that he was given a Damnatio Memoriae by the follow Pharaoh. A pharaoh, who was considered a divine incarnation of a god was completely shunned from Egyptian history and the public mindset for merely attempting something like this - who could have gotten away with this in Israel and the endless polytheistic Israelites? The constant external pressures that Judah faced from c.900 BC - 500 BC completely rule out a strong centralized system that could have changed the entire already established and centralized cultic system at Judah that certainly wouldn't have allowed something like this and keep it so for generations. Proof of this is the consistent stubbornness of the Israelite population itself! Thus Dever's statement that the Biblical writers had a monotheistic ideal completely falls apart on itself - these writers were ISRAelites themselves who would have preferred the same thing as the Israelites if the Judaic cult's origin was polytheistic (they would have certainly known this as in the case of Akhenaten it was known that the Egyptians had many powerful deities, not just one strong one). If the Judaic cult had major problems bringing and keeping the majority of people under monotheism, how can some monotheistic movement or force be powerful enough to come, being extremely unpopular, replace the cult with monotheism, and keep it that way in the face of the Israelites? Royal support? But none of the kings are recorded as being anti-pagan and removing the high places, except three: David, Hezekiah, and Josiah! It is completely impossible!
Perhaps some of this information should be at least obliquely reflected in the article and not make it seem like archaeology is basically the Bible's worst nightmare! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Renassault ( talk • contribs) 12:38, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
If a Google search is any guide, the term "Biblical Archaeology" is rarely used except by self styled "Biblical Archaeologists" and "Bible Historians" and suchlike. I did find "biblical archaeology, which seeks evidence and explanation for events described in the Bible" Society for American Archaeology.
As evidenced by the Expert commentaries section, the definition and "scientific" nature of biblical archaeology is controversial. This is not reflected in the intro and "Archaeology" sections, which are based entirely on the opinions of Biblical Archaeologists and their proponents. Keith McClary ( talk) 20:17, 18 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel like Cline's Table 2 in Biblical Archaeology: A Very Short Introduction (2009; 33-34) would be a better and more up-to-date source than Mercer's Dictionary of the Bible (1990) for the relative dating time periods used in Syro-Palestinian Archaeology. That said, I was a student of Cline's and have worked with him a lot, so I don't want to sound like I'm biased. That said, I do think this would be a good edit to make as the current one is out-of-date (it's almost as old as I am!) and it doesn't really make sense in the MB section. It was based on Mazar's Table 2 in Archaeology of the Land of the Bible - 10,000–586 B.C.E. (1992; 30), but has been updated to reflect the views of 2009 (at least his view as confusion over this dating system is an ever-present mess). Does anyone have any objections? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 11 Shevat 5775 06:06, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
From what I can see, the list of digs hasn't been updated in almost seven years. If BAR's Find a Dig is any indication, this list needs quite a bit of work. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 27 Shevat 5775 15:13, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
A lot of stuff needs to be added. More, and more evidence keeps getting dug up. The anti-semitic attitudes, and bible naysayers have held everything back far too long. You cannot ignore what is right in front of your eyes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.192.14.161 ( talk) 18:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
I think we should break it up into six linked pages. First we separate the secular Israel Finkelstein type interpretations from the purely biblical interpretations. Then we separate the history into three phases as (pre-Iron Age), (Age I, IIA, IIB, IIC), (Exile to Roman/Christian).
The list of "unknown or disproved" items contradicts what is written in the article about these items (see Jehoash inscription and James ossuary for example). It seems that the situation is not as clear as this article wants us to believe. Do you also think that the article should be changed to reflect the uncertain status of these objects? Alæxis ¿question? 20:55, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
I think in her open lecture series Christine Hayes addressed this, stating that "Biblical archaeology" was a term used by people who tended toward credulity in the early part of the twentieth century, but recently there has been a shift to "archaeology of the ancient Near East" or "archaeology of the Levant". I'll check later (it's probably about ten hours in to the lectures...). But even a quick Googling supports the same conclusion: in .ac.uk domains we find that Oxford University names its course on the subject "Archaeology of the Bible Lands", and its recommended reading includes a book called The rise and fall of Biblical Archaeology, King's College London considers "the history of the study of so-called ‘Biblical archaeology’", and other results appear to favour "Near Eastern Archaeology" and so on; in .edu domains the only result on the first page that has "Biblical Archaeology" in a course name is from Wheaton College. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 01:54, 8 April 2016 (UTC)
The lecture was Lecture 6, roughly from 04:00 to 08:00, especially the first thirty seconds of that block, but especially the last thirty seconds. Hijiri 88 ( 聖 やや) 06:49, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
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The Shroud of Turin does NOT belong under "disproved" artifacts, as there is NO CONSENSUS amongst scholars regarding the authenticity of the Shroud, and therefore a Wikipedia page claiming the Shroud of Turin is fake, and dismissing the ongoing battle in academia on its validity, is the equivalent of Wikipedia saying the academia of philosophy has concluded that God exists and completely hand-waving the numerous publications in philosophy arguing against God and only mentioning the ones for it. There have been many publications that have significantly razed off the validity of the Radio carbon dating performed on the Shroud, including this one -- http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/otarch3.html, this one -- http://www.shroud.it/ROGERS-3.PDF, and not to mention the fact that there are have literally been conducted EIGHT different major dating tests on the Shroud, not one being the C14 dating, and all the other datings conform to a 1st century AD dating compiled here -- http://www.magiscenter.com/pdf/Science_and_the_Shroud_of_Turin.pdf -- it always amazes me that discussion on the Shroud always focuses on the one dating that is against it, even though there have been many flaws shown in the C14 dating test (as cited earlier) such as contamination. There is no agreement whatsoever amongst scholars on the validity of the Shroud, and simply going through the research publications on the Shroud at shroud.com will show exactly that, overwhelming debate and probably more support for it then against it. Either way, we should remove the Shroud from "disproved" Biblical artifacts.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Korvex ( talk • contribs) 00:44, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
It seems clearly crazy to me that this page only mentions the Carbon dating tests that confirm Kenyon's dating of the destruction of Jericho but doesn't mention any of the carbon dating tests contradicting it. The carbon dating tests are all over the place when it comes to Jericho. There's one that puts it in the 17th century BC, on that puts it in the 13th century BC, and one that puts it even in the time of the conquest in accordance with the Bible! There are two that conform to Kenyon's dating. Why are the pro-Kenyon ones only noted? I propose an edit where all carbon datings are mentioned. Korvex ( talk) 01:51, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
Well now I'm even more confused. You wrote that "quite literally about half of the leading scholars in archaeology are literally Biblical scholars". I don't understand that. It is obviously untrue that even anywhere near half of the leading scholars in archaeology are even interested in biblical archaeology. I obviously don't know what point you were making, but it is certainly the case that the names you mention weren't all archaeologists. Minor thing, I'm pretty sure Trinite was only found in the Trinity crater in Arizona & not in Japan - because Trinity was a ground level explosion, the others were bombs dropped from planes. This glass is supposedly similar, like the Libyan desert glass. Collins suggests a comet strike in his book. I presume you've read this and this. And his numerous credentials don't prove he's a great archaeologist. His PhD (not in archaeology) seems to have come from an unaccredited school specialising in distance learning. You'll like this link. Wood may well be nice, why not? But I haven't read any personal info about him. Doug Weller talk 18:00, 11 February 2017 (UTC)
Some scholars from the list Siefert added at Biblical archaeology actually lived before the minimalism-maximalism debate. So, it is anachronistic to call them either minimalists or maximalists. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:15, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
About the author of that dubious list: his only credential seems to be being actual or former Christadelphian. That's not much to go by. Tgeorgescu ( talk) 05:38, 7 March 2017 (UTC)
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This isn't a good way to write an article. Who decides what goes here? Editors. It's a form of original research and ends up a bit of a quote farm. Doug Weller talk 19:49, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
anti-"literal Bible" POVis mainstream scholarship POV. But I agree that the article needs a lot of work. — Paleo Neonate – 15:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
The end of the section quotes "Evangelical Old Testament scholar Walter C. Kaiser Jr." who seems to be more of a theologian than archaeologist. I understand it was probably included to get the maximalist opinion, but that has really become a fringe view at this point. If the maximalist position is to be included, it should come from more of a subject mater expert, like Kenneth Kitchen. Yaakovaryeh ( talk) 17:11, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Based on Wikipedia's editorial perspective and standards, is it best that this article not inform WP readers about Associates for Biblical Research,
https://biblearchaeology.org, the most well known biblical-literalist archaeology organization? Their founder:
- PhD in archaeology from Andrews U.
Various staff have:
- masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard
- masters from Baltimore Hebrew U., thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine
- M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto
- etc. etc.
So is it better our readers don't learn here about this popular group, or should we put an External Link, something like:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:28, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
Great question. Thanks for asking Doug. From WP:EL "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
The Bible, however, plainly teaches that man was created fully formed and with a sophisticated intellect right at the beginning of creation (Mk 10:6, Gn 1:27). When God decided to judge the world because of its great wickedness (Gn 6:7, 2 Pt 2:4–5), Noah and seven others from his family were spared in the Ark. All human beings alive today are descendants of Noah’s family. If this fact of history is rejected, once again false conclusions will be drawn.
— Henry B. Smith, Jr., Bible and Spade, Fall 2006, Vol. 19, No. 4, p. 97
Most of the dinosaurs were simply unable to survive the adverse environmental conditions that existed after they left the Ark.
— loc. cit.
Hey Tgeorgescuc. Thanks for telling me that. I don't know who's using that term but if by it you're reiterating that ABR is an unreliable source, that doesn't at all undermine my argument for this link based on WP:EL as excerpted above. And I still would like to know if you or Zero or another editor will consider restoring that link. Thanks! Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 14:36, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks for those thoughts Zero. Aside from your worthwhile suggestion, what you've added to the External Link discussion is that it would look more like an advertisement. From some perspectives, undoubtedly, but is that the decisive policy standard? I believe the applicable policy standard from WP:EL is that External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." By WP's standard, I'm asking again if one of you will restore the link. Thanks. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 15:07, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Hey Zero. You've added another contribution to the discussion, "We link to religious groups sometimes when those groups are the subject of an article". Yes, but that's not the policy under discussion here. The policy discussed here specifically regards sources WP views as unreliable for topics that the unreliable source may nonetheless contain information about the subject of the article. Again from WP:EL the External "Links to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." If the contribution you just offered was the policy under discussion, it would read "Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet [are the subject of the article]." The policy here doesn't read that way though and you may not agree with the existing WP policy but this isn't the place to change it. And because the policy is exactly on target and appears supportive of adding this external link, I'll ask if one of you guys might reconsider and restore the link? Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 17:32, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
The Bible is the voice of God, not the voice of scientists. If we want the voice of scientists, we ask the scientists. Most of them do advocate the Big Bang, abiogenesis, and evolution as the most visible means of how the world came to be. Whether or not this was God's doing is up to the reader to decide. If the scientists are mistaken, this has to be shown to them on their own grounds, which anti-evolution folks are not really doing, because they are not reading up on the same literature, they are not using the same standards and experiments, and they are not speaking in the same circles nor getting published in the same journals. If it does not walk like a duck, does not talk like a duck, and avoids ducks like the plague, there is little reason to assume its a duck. Or scientist, in this case. I'm not saying the anti-evolution folks are wrong, I'm just saying that they are not mainstream scientists. This is why they're not consulted for the voice of scientists. Now, they can be consulted for what they think if their views are notable.
— User:Ian.thomson
Hi Tgeorgescu. Your "book" i.e., WP's
Fringe theories content guideline, has no reference to what we're discussing here, that is, can a particular unreliable source qualify as an external link in an article. It also has no definition of, and no mention of "knowledgeable" people, nor of archaeology for that matter. Your link has only one reference on the page to our topic, "External links", and that is to the
WP:EL that we've been discussing and I have been quoting from. Perhaps some editors would like to apply policies not related to the External Links section to external links sections. But that's a matter to be taken up elsewhere. Here, we are discussing whether ABR, an admittedly WP-judged fringe-theory and unreliable source, fits the WP policy to be an External Link in this "Biblical archaeology" article. So for that, the first relevant question to ask is, can ABR by the
WP:EL policy qualify as an External Link "to be considered... Sites that fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources." The External Link that has been removed is to a website populated by "knowledgeable sources" on biblical archaeology, that is, it's run by a PhD in archaeology from Andrews U with staffers who have a masters in anthropology and archaeology from Harvard, a masters from Baltimore Hebrew U. with a thesis - Domestic Architecture in Iron Age I Palestine, M.A. biblical history U of Mich, PhD in Syro-Palestinian archaeology from U of Toronto, etc. I'm thankful that you and Zero are helping to work through this, but I'm wondering if it might be more constructive if we keep extraneous topics and policies out of the discussion and try to come to a consensus based on Wikipedia's External Links Policies. I don't quite know the etiquette in this situation, as to whether it's rude to ask a question in more than three iterations, so in case it is, I'll change it up. Realizing that at any given time there are very few people reading this Talk page and this section of the talk page, nonetheless I'll ask. Is there a Wikipedian here who will undo the deletion of this External Link? Or, for that matter, re-enter something along the lines of:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 22:00, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
A Christian Apologetics Ministry Dedicated to Demonstrating the Historical Reliability of the Bible through Archaeological and Biblical Researchdoes "contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" that should be brought to our readers' attention. If their tag had been "Dedicated to Examining"...or researching or exploring, etc...there would be a possibility that their site was about the science, but "demonstrating" clearly indicates a pre-selected outcome which their information will be selected to support. The link that you're proposing falls into Links to be considered. It looks like multiple editors have considered it and think it is inappropriate to add, as do I. Schazjmd (talk) 22:33, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Schazjmd. You list two objections. The primary objection, as I think we can see here, is your objection that ABR is an unreliable source. But this is a given throughout my attempt to apply policy to restore this removed link. You say if they were a group that had the mission you describe, of "examining" rather than "demonstrating", that might make them acceptable here, but by imagining that change, we would be pushing them (in our imagination) toward being a "reliable" source. That's why I'm saying that your main objection regards what has been admitted throughout, whereas the policy permits using unreliable sources as external links. Further, the fact that their mission makes them a de facto unreliable source for WP does not mean that they don't present throughout their (disapproved of) work extensive information "about the science of archaeology related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'." Their staffers have authored many research works in mainstream publications and conferences, and of course they use that work also on their own site. So it seems manifestly false that ABR does not qualify as a WP unreliable source that contains extensive information about the science of archaeology "related to 'the periods and descriptions in the Bible'". That leaves us with your second objection. For then as you indicate, the few editors here who have weighed in don't support restoring the link. However, I don't take those few editors as sufficiently representive to give up on the recommendation that we add this single external link to a related unreliable source in this (if printed out) 15-page article. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 00:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Wanting to bring into this discussion the use of Wikipedia as an outlet to publicly debunk fringe is understandable, but I urge us to keep passions out of what should be an as-objective-as-possible discussion to evaluate whether WP policy WP:EL merits here an unreliable source external link. Others may consider an ABR article. But I do think you get closer to our policy disagreement Doug when you suggest a possibly "good idea" of a section here on Creationist archaeology. I realize it's harder to use an external link as a debunking outlet, but that doesn't trump the WP EL policy. There is the option of working to modify WP policy, but as it stands, restoring the link is the action that overtly complies with WP:EL. Might one of you do that while Doug considers that new section? 2601:280:5B7F:8708:B14F:300F:A11C:8626 ( talk) 15:18, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
No page should be linked from a Wikipedia article unless its inclusion is justifiable according to this guideline and common sense. The burden of providing this justification is on the person who wants to include an external link.Your justification has not convinced any other editor to agree with you (yet). You may want to invite editors from related Wikipedia projects to weigh in, in order to get wider input. Schazjmd (talk) 15:55, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Hello Schazjmd, you're correct of course that there's no consensus but on the viewpoint separating us it seems we are making progress and in an important way getting closer together. Taking your latest comment as an indicator of where we're at, we' have moved from an ABR External Link being in violation of WP guidelines to such a link being within guidelines but not within consensus. These examples and summary of the objections shows how much progress that is:
- Just in your previous post from 15 hours earlier you said "your objection is that this is an article about science". The WP:EL doesn't exclude science articles, and if you think it should, you could propose that change there, but enforcing that personal bias regarding the guideline here doesn't seem appropriate.
- Doug had just said such a link "is not appropriate" but by the WP guideline as Schazjmd has admitted it clearly is; the question now is can there be consensus. Doug, you could help build that consensus by reconsidering.
- Tgeorgescu, even though the link was being argued for as an unreliable source, pulled Bible quotes from ABR apparently to prove it was an unreliable source, illustrating as throughout the above that the objections are mostly based on emotion about ABR rather than on the WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu writes of ABR's material, "ain't gonna pass through peer-review in any academic journal worth its salt" and "This is even better", better that is, for showing ABR to be an unreliable source, but not better, or even relevant, to applying the guideline.
- Tgeorgescu writes, "for the true believer, the above quotes are sublime truths; for the rest of us they are ridiculous rants" overtly showing that some objection to this particular external link is based on emotion, such that an appeal to the guidelines might have a very hard time getting a fair hearing.
- Zero then offered a clearly false assessment, for regardless of the ABR site representing WP "fringe" and being unreliable, he claimed the ABR staffers are not "knowledgeable" about the field. (That's like claiming the 18% of US MDs who believe that "God created humans exactly as they appear now", or the hundreds of thousands of other MDs who believe God guided our origin, are not knowledgeable about their fields.)
- Tgeorgescu volunteered something that then Zero disagreed with, "Let me tell you something: 'biblical archaeologist' is a label meant to express mockery". I hope this summary list can help you guys see that there's way more emotion and bias coming out from the "anti-link" side than the pro-link (my) side, and that I've been the one arguing for applying WP guidelines against unreasonably biased objections.
- Zero then objected to the link because it "would look more like an advertisement" but that assessment doesn't seem WP guideline-based in the least but is understandable as bias-based.
- Zero's next comment feared a link to a "Christian Apologetics Ministry" with "young-Earth rubbish" would look like WP was "preach[ing]". But a single on-topic external link to an unreliable source (described as "biblical literalist") can't possibly amount to preaching, but that objection does illustrate that through our entire disagreement it's the anti-link side that's demonstrating motivation beyond a desire to apply WP guidelines.
- Tgeorgescu then refers to "our book" (i.e., WP's fringe parlance) and by that he gives the impression (to me anyway) that he'd like to intimidate into not participating in WP those with a different "book", presumably like Muslims, Jews, Christians, by his inserting an extended quote about the voice of God, not science, and talking like a duck and plagues and all, and he then speaks for all of WP pronouncing ABR as an unreliable source, which doesn't disqualify it under the guidline discussed here but qualifies it as an external link here by WP:EL which Doug first linked to.
- Doug suggested a section in the article on "Creationist archaeology" because he's always in favor of "publicly debunking fringe", but surely if that is plausible, than the anti-link folks should be able to set aside emotion and reconsider a single on-topic external link from a relevant WP-judged unreliable source.
- Finally Schazjmd you've come a long way when you state that there is no consensus over the EL but that WP:EL states that a link "of this type" is to be considered, and you add, of course, that WP:EL doesn't say that it MUST be included. Yes, agreed. But what our discussion has demonstrated is that the anti-link side brings a lot of emotion and bias against even a fair consideration of the link as WP-appropriate and article-relevant. So I think it would be good if an anti-link editor could overcome the evident bias throughout the above and reconsider restoring the link, something like this:
Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 15:31, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Schazjmd, first, thanks for answering my Help Desk question for my QM indeterminism edit. As for this unreliable source link, you guys, Doug Weller, Zero, Tgeorgescu, and you Schazjmd, are so conditioned to protect WP from fringe that it appears you've reflexively made yourselves unable to objectively consider an external link WP:EL unreliable source and merely have a knee-jerk reaction against what would be a perfectly appropriate application of Wikipedia guidelines. Many readers undoubtedly and for a wide-range of reasons would not want this article to unreasonably hide from them the existence of such an organization as you all are doing. I have much to learn about WP etiquette, so I'm not sure if it's bad behavior for me to go and reverse that edit and restore the link. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 13:26, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Okay then I'm done. The list of emotional arguments above and the move from such a link being outside of WP policy to it just lacking consensus I think demonstrate the subjectivity. And I do think WP readers of this article are the losers to this result. Thanks though everyone for your time. Bob Enyart, Denver KGOV radio host ( talk) 23:07, 1 July 2020 (UTC)
Wondering if we should create or is there a page on other religions archeology besides Christian based. Hinduism, Islamic, etc. There probably not alot of info on the subject, but we should have a page on Religious Archeology. Doremon764 ( talk) 22:04, 9 October 2020 (UTC)