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Do we have any sources with surveys that report on explicit reasons of the community's dwindling numbers? Makeandtoss ( talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Yet most Arab Christians living in Israel do not describe their situation in glowing terms. Samer Makhlouf, a Catholic and executive director of One Voice, a grassroots movement in Palestine that brings together young Palestinians and Israelis to promote peace, says that of the four problems facing Christians in the Holy Land, the first three are "occupation, occupation, occupation." Makhlouf described Israeli military and security policy as "the father of all the problems in the region." That perception seems widespread. A 2006 poll by Zogby International found that in the city of Bethlehem, 78 percent of Christians said that Christians were leaving the city because of Israeli occupation, while only 3.2 percent attributed the Christian exodus to the rise of Islamic movements.what you put in the article was, again, a highly distorted portrayal of why the Christians of Bethlehem are leaving. When the overwhelming majority is leaving because of the Israeli occupation and you claim it is because of Muslim oppression you are distorting the record. nableezy - 14:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
References
Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism: Muslims refusing to hire Christian workers or to sell property to Christians Christian women describe increasing harassment from Muslim men.
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Spefically following sentences:
as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.
Regarding biblical and Israelite history of the city in relation to king David, Also the following:
Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city
This is in reference, explaining that the gospels say Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.
Furthermore, the removal of King David originating from Bethlehem in the body:
David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem.
Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in body. Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
This image: :
Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
"By 2016, the Christian population of Bethlehem had declined to only 16%. The Christian population's proportion of Bethlehem fell from 87% in the 1950s to 12% in 2016."
This is what the page states now. Unless I'm missing some obvious technicality the text claims that in 2016 Christians were both 12% and 16% of the population. This conflicting info should be explained or corrected. 2A02:2F07:C212:C200:E850:9BF5:9425:887F ( talk) 05:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I would like to ask for the help of an authorized editor to change the references to the Amarna correspondence as they are demonstrably based on wishful thinking. This is not crack-pottery or original research, but properly sourced below and also evident to anybody who can read some cuneiform.
Here's how the Britannica puts it: "An ancient settlement, it is possibly mentioned in the Amarna Letters (14th-century-bce diplomatic documents found at Tell el-Amarna, Egypt), but the reading there is uncertain." - we could also just copy this statement.
The basis of the often repeated statement that Bethlehem is mentioned in the Amarna correspondence goes back to W. F. Albright. The original tablet, EA 290 (Amarna letter 290), does, however, not say bit-Lahmi, but bit-nin-urta (or nin-ib, in an alternative reading). Albright went through some hair-raising acrobatics to apply a different reading to get the desired result.
Here is how Nicolas Blincoe (Bethlehem, biography of a town) describes the genesis of this interpretation (end of chapter 1, I do not see page numbers):
"Albright was quick to pick up on Schroeder's claim to have found the first mention of Bethlehem. But he offered a different and far simpler translation. He argued that the cuneiform symbol Beit-Ninurta could be read Beit-Lahmu because "Lahmu" was an alternative for Ninurta among the Sumerians. No one has ever suggested this, and as Lahmu is only ever mentioned in conjunction with his twin sister, Lahamu, the connection is highly dubious. In truth, Albright seems to have misunderstood Schroeder's reading, which had only been published in German. Albright recanted in 1968, when he identified Beit-Ninurta with Beit Horon, yet his fanciful interpretation of the Abdi-Heba letter is still cited in guidebooks and archaeological studies to date Bethlehem."
BTB, Wikipedia's own article on the letter has bit-Ninurta, as it should: /info/en/?search=Amarna_letter_EA_290, line 15
How about this as a compromise then: "Bethlehem has been suggested as a reading for the place-name bīt-ninurta in one of the Amarna letters (EA 290), but this reading is very uncertain and has been rejected by other scholars."
Likewise in the section under Canaanite, the name Bit-Lachmi should be replaced by the original Bit-ninurta with a reference that this name has been interpreted by at least two scholars as Bethlehem, but that said reading is uncertain and has met with significant objections.
Hope an editor sees this, makes it through my wall of text and is willing to work on it. Please contact me on my contact page if I can help. Thanks! MikuChan39 ( talk) 23:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Bethlehem article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.
|
Bethlehem has been listed as one of the Geography and places good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on December 21, 2016, December 21, 2019, and December 21, 2020. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Do we have any sources with surveys that report on explicit reasons of the community's dwindling numbers? Makeandtoss ( talk) 15:59, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:06, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Yet most Arab Christians living in Israel do not describe their situation in glowing terms. Samer Makhlouf, a Catholic and executive director of One Voice, a grassroots movement in Palestine that brings together young Palestinians and Israelis to promote peace, says that of the four problems facing Christians in the Holy Land, the first three are "occupation, occupation, occupation." Makhlouf described Israeli military and security policy as "the father of all the problems in the region." That perception seems widespread. A 2006 poll by Zogby International found that in the city of Bethlehem, 78 percent of Christians said that Christians were leaving the city because of Israeli occupation, while only 3.2 percent attributed the Christian exodus to the rise of Islamic movements.what you put in the article was, again, a highly distorted portrayal of why the Christians of Bethlehem are leaving. When the overwhelming majority is leaving because of the Israeli occupation and you claim it is because of Muslim oppression you are distorting the record. nableezy - 14:50, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
References
Selected accounts of Christians expressing feelings of intimidation/persecution due to rise in Muslim extremism: Muslims refusing to hire Christian workers or to sell property to Christians Christian women describe increasing harassment from Muslim men.
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in lead. Spefically following sentences:
as well as the city where he was anointed as the third monarch of the United Kingdom of Israel, and also states that it was built up as a fortified city by Rehoboam, the first monarch of the Kingdom of Judah.
Regarding biblical and Israelite history of the city in relation to king David, Also the following:
Gospel of Matthew and the Gospel of Luke identify the city
This is in reference, explaining that the gospels say Jesus Christ was born in Bethlehem.
Furthermore, the removal of King David originating from Bethlehem in the body:
David is considered to have originated from Bethlehem.
Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:09, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Opening discussion regarding whether and where this should be included in body. Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:12, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
This image: :
Homerethegreat ( talk) 14:14, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
"By 2016, the Christian population of Bethlehem had declined to only 16%. The Christian population's proportion of Bethlehem fell from 87% in the 1950s to 12% in 2016."
This is what the page states now. Unless I'm missing some obvious technicality the text claims that in 2016 Christians were both 12% and 16% of the population. This conflicting info should be explained or corrected. 2A02:2F07:C212:C200:E850:9BF5:9425:887F ( talk) 05:53, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
I would like to ask for the help of an authorized editor to change the references to the Amarna correspondence as they are demonstrably based on wishful thinking. This is not crack-pottery or original research, but properly sourced below and also evident to anybody who can read some cuneiform.
Here's how the Britannica puts it: "An ancient settlement, it is possibly mentioned in the Amarna Letters (14th-century-bce diplomatic documents found at Tell el-Amarna, Egypt), but the reading there is uncertain." - we could also just copy this statement.
The basis of the often repeated statement that Bethlehem is mentioned in the Amarna correspondence goes back to W. F. Albright. The original tablet, EA 290 (Amarna letter 290), does, however, not say bit-Lahmi, but bit-nin-urta (or nin-ib, in an alternative reading). Albright went through some hair-raising acrobatics to apply a different reading to get the desired result.
Here is how Nicolas Blincoe (Bethlehem, biography of a town) describes the genesis of this interpretation (end of chapter 1, I do not see page numbers):
"Albright was quick to pick up on Schroeder's claim to have found the first mention of Bethlehem. But he offered a different and far simpler translation. He argued that the cuneiform symbol Beit-Ninurta could be read Beit-Lahmu because "Lahmu" was an alternative for Ninurta among the Sumerians. No one has ever suggested this, and as Lahmu is only ever mentioned in conjunction with his twin sister, Lahamu, the connection is highly dubious. In truth, Albright seems to have misunderstood Schroeder's reading, which had only been published in German. Albright recanted in 1968, when he identified Beit-Ninurta with Beit Horon, yet his fanciful interpretation of the Abdi-Heba letter is still cited in guidebooks and archaeological studies to date Bethlehem."
BTB, Wikipedia's own article on the letter has bit-Ninurta, as it should: /info/en/?search=Amarna_letter_EA_290, line 15
How about this as a compromise then: "Bethlehem has been suggested as a reading for the place-name bīt-ninurta in one of the Amarna letters (EA 290), but this reading is very uncertain and has been rejected by other scholars."
Likewise in the section under Canaanite, the name Bit-Lachmi should be replaced by the original Bit-ninurta with a reference that this name has been interpreted by at least two scholars as Bethlehem, but that said reading is uncertain and has met with significant objections.
Hope an editor sees this, makes it through my wall of text and is willing to work on it. Please contact me on my contact page if I can help. Thanks! MikuChan39 ( talk) 23:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
It is
requested that an edit be made to the
extended-confirmed-protected article at
Bethlehem. (
·
history ·
last ·
links ·
protection log)
This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".
The edit may be made by any
extended confirmed user. Remember to change the |