Beth Mead (
final version) received a
peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 20 April 2024 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
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This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
project page or contribute to the
discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
@
Egghead06: I don't think notability is an issue. You're right - FA WSL is not fully professional (it's semi-professional with a limited number of full-time players) so she doesn't meet the
WP:ATH criteria, but I have a hard time believing she doesn't meet
WP:GNG. Besides match reports and England team news, she's been the subject of non-trivial coverage by multiple sources:
Tend to agree with you on reflection. Have never been convinced that
WP:NFOOTBALL is fit for purpose and excludes all but international female players in the UK. As far as I am concerned, feel free to remove the Notability tag.--
Egghead06 (
talk) 16:30, 20 July 2015 (UTC)reply
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on
Beth Mead. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
Please do not remove the section referring to Mead's relationship and Pink News/Gar Star News sources. These are reputable news sources and they have been used in many Wikipedia articles. The information provided by them cannot be regarded as "false" unless proven otherwise by another reputable source. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmSam13 (
talk •
contribs) 12:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
@
AmSam13: Per Pink News' entry on
WP:PERENNIAL, it is designated as "generally unreliable":
There is consensus that PinkNews is generally unreliable, except for quotes of a living person's self-identification of their sexual orientation. If PinkNews republishes claims from a reliable source, cite the original source instead of PinkNews.
There is a wider issue/problem here, arising out of the 'lockdown' and it becoming evident that many female soccer players are sharing households. My understanding of the rules is that we'd still need a very decent source (
this sort of thing) before we can label them lesbians. There's been links to some individuals' social media used as sources, which obviously isn't good enough. And neither are links to sub-tabloid dross like PinkNews. I see from my watchlist there are loads of other players involved, so perhaps a discussion at a higher or more central level would be helpful?
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 16:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree with
Bring back Daz Sampson. When I check the
PinkNews reference, Mead's only mention is Footballer for Arsenal and the English national team, helping to dispel the stigma surrounding LGBT+ football players. That does not imply that she herself is LGBT. A
tweet that took a screencap has the quote I think if players like me and Danielle can make people feel more comfortable and proud of who they are, then that's a good thing, but it is missing on
the article from The Sun, which is considered a deprecated reliable source here. —
Tenryuu 🐲 (
💬 •
📝 ) 17:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
That is not true! If you read the Pink News source, it states at the start of the article that it is a list of lesbians, stating "So whether you’re a lesbian or not, take note of these incredible women who love women". Beth Mead is on that list. So it clearly presents Mead as lesbian, let alone LGBT. I suggest you read the article more closely. The Sun is not a reliable source, it is a tabloid, and it certainly should not override the Gay Star News as a more reliable source. Also, just because it doesn't mention the relationship doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
AmSam13 (
talk) 17:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I dare say the players are together (like many others) but we have to consider
verifiability, not truth. I've been around here long enough in various guises to remember back when some fairly obvious/blatant soccer lesbians (Hope Powell, Abby Wambach) hadn't 'officially' come out so we had to keep dutifully deleting this kind of gossip added by well-meaning editors. To be honest it sometimes felt a bit like a waste of effort because it was pretty clear the stuff being added was true, and at
WP:WOSO we were obviously very supportive and pro-lesbian in general. I remember at the time I went around seeking advice from the women's sports and LGBT wikiprojects and the feedback seemed to be that to include this stuff the bar has to be set high ie. we need exceptionally strong sources. In my opinion that would look more mainstream like the Littlejohn/McCabe one above, rather than the examples you've laid out here. It's potentially a thorny issue because of privacy concerns etc. which affect us as Wikipedians due to our rules, more than they would for a writer at one of these advocacy blogs. They all tend to copy off each other and are (quite naturally) working to a different agenda. I can see you've been making the same kind of edits and got some pushback at
Lucy Bronze and
Leah Williamson. My advice is to try and listen to what other more experienced editors are telling you,
drop it for now, but 'keep an eye out' for some better quality sources to come along later.
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 11:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the information, that is indeed helpful. The thing is, I think that I have found at least three sources that are exceptionally strong sources for this matter. The case for the three in question is as follows:
1) Outsports article:
https://www.outsports.com/2019/6/11/18660301/out-gay-lesbian-bi-2019-women-world-cup-soccer. There is not anything on
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources about Outsports specifically, however
Outsports has been owned by Vox Media since 2013. As stated on
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, "Vox is considered generally reliable". The Outsports site in general is also run as part of
SB Nation, which is also owned by the generally reliable Vox Media. This makes me think that Outsports is probably considered a generally reliable source by Wikipedia, as a subsidiary of Vox Media? The Outsports article also not only documents Mead's sexual orientation identity but also that of her alleged partner, Daniëlle van de Donk, and it cites this source to support its claim:
https://spelersvrouw.nl/beth-mead-vriendin-van-danielle-van-de-donk/. Unfortunately, I don't speak Dutch, so I was not able to fully look into whether this article/news site is a reputable source (perhaps some of the Dutch speakers among us could help me here!), but as a reputable news site with referenced claims I think the Outsports article would have a very good claim to being a exceptionally reliable source.
So I do think that there at least three exceptionally strong sources on this matter to be able to verify the claim.
AmSam13 (
talk) 22:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the detailed response, but no, I can't agree with this at all. 1) and 2) are salacious blog-style
listicles. The Gay Star one is by admission based on "reader tips" and the first one ultimately derives from the players' Instagram accounts! Far from being exceptionally strong, they are nowhere near the standard of source required. For the third one, show me the Guardian article - there isn't one - I suspect one of the players listed in there had it 'spiked'. DIVA construct their lists from public votes, irrespective of whether the subjects wants to be in there. There is an article
here which is a handy accessible explainer, for those of us who are not lesbians, about this issue and the 'levels' involved in 'coming out'. Seriously, if the players concerned don't want their status widely published, we have to back off. Quite apart from
WP:BLP concerns around accuracy, legality, ethics, etc. we have to think of the players. You obviously follow the game closely and have great knowledge of the players involved, I am sure the last thing you want to do is cause them any unnecessary upset.
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 22:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)reply
To be fair though I don’t see what’s wrong with the gay star news. It’s not generated by readers tips like you say I don’t know where you’ve got that from. Also what’s wrong with Spielersvrouw as a source. And it is true that the gay star news is used on other living person articles
Speaker of Truth and Wisdom (
talk) 12:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)reply
We don't need to consider whether the source is reliable or whether
SPAs should be adding juicy details to BLP articles. That's because articles do not list the current girl/boy-friends of subjects, not unless a reliable source documents the long-term significance of the friendship. There is a certain amount of tolerance for gossip at celebrity articles where sources often talk about little else other than the star's possible relationships, but who is dating-whom is not central to the biography of a footballer—not unless a reliable source explains otherwise.
Johnuniq (
talk) 06:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Balderdash. If you are going to add a person's article to the category 'LGBT association football players', you need to provide a reference. Its only right. You should know that. Therefore, the existence of a same-sex relationship in this case is entirely relevant. As it is for other pages where the 'LGBT association football players' category is added. Its not about providing celebrity 'gossip', just a reference for why that player's article is in a certain category. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmSam13 (
talk •
contribs) 10:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Johnuniq,
Bring back Daz Sampson,
Tenryuu, just a note to say that AmSam13 is a sock, and Speaker of Truth blah blah is the same person. If you all edit similar articles, be on the lookout: one of their fascinations is with the gayness of female athletes and celebrities. Thanks,
Drmies (
talk) 15:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the action and update.
Johnuniq (
talk) 23:26, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on
Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
RMCD bot 12:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)reply
Beth Mead (
final version) received a
peer review by Wikipedia editors, which on 20 April 2024 was archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or
poorly sourcedmust be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially
libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to
this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to
join the project and
contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the
documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Football, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Association football on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FootballWikipedia:WikiProject FootballTemplate:WikiProject Footballfootball articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Women's sport (and women in sports), a WikiProject which aims to improve coverage of women in sports on Wikipedia. For more information, visit the
project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the
discussion.Women's sportWikipedia:WikiProject Women's sportTemplate:WikiProject Women's sportWomen's sport articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.EnglandWikipedia:WikiProject EnglandTemplate:WikiProject EnglandEngland-related articles
Beth Mead is within the scope of WikiProject Yorkshire, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to
Yorkshire on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project, see a list of open tasks, and join in discussions on the project's talk page.YorkshireWikipedia:WikiProject YorkshireTemplate:WikiProject YorkshireYorkshire articles
This article is of interest to WikiProject LGBT studies, which tries to ensure comprehensive and factual coverage of all
LGBT-related issues on Wikipedia. For more information, or to get involved, please visit the
project page or contribute to the
discussion.LGBT studiesWikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studiesTemplate:WikiProject LGBT studiesLGBT articles
The following references may be useful when improving this article in the future:
@
Egghead06: I don't think notability is an issue. You're right - FA WSL is not fully professional (it's semi-professional with a limited number of full-time players) so she doesn't meet the
WP:ATH criteria, but I have a hard time believing she doesn't meet
WP:GNG. Besides match reports and England team news, she's been the subject of non-trivial coverage by multiple sources:
Tend to agree with you on reflection. Have never been convinced that
WP:NFOOTBALL is fit for purpose and excludes all but international female players in the UK. As far as I am concerned, feel free to remove the Notability tag.--
Egghead06 (
talk) 16:30, 20 July 2015 (UTC)reply
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on
Beth Mead. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
Please do not remove the section referring to Mead's relationship and Pink News/Gar Star News sources. These are reputable news sources and they have been used in many Wikipedia articles. The information provided by them cannot be regarded as "false" unless proven otherwise by another reputable source. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmSam13 (
talk •
contribs) 12:52, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
@
AmSam13: Per Pink News' entry on
WP:PERENNIAL, it is designated as "generally unreliable":
There is consensus that PinkNews is generally unreliable, except for quotes of a living person's self-identification of their sexual orientation. If PinkNews republishes claims from a reliable source, cite the original source instead of PinkNews.
There is a wider issue/problem here, arising out of the 'lockdown' and it becoming evident that many female soccer players are sharing households. My understanding of the rules is that we'd still need a very decent source (
this sort of thing) before we can label them lesbians. There's been links to some individuals' social media used as sources, which obviously isn't good enough. And neither are links to sub-tabloid dross like PinkNews. I see from my watchlist there are loads of other players involved, so perhaps a discussion at a higher or more central level would be helpful?
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 16:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I agree with
Bring back Daz Sampson. When I check the
PinkNews reference, Mead's only mention is Footballer for Arsenal and the English national team, helping to dispel the stigma surrounding LGBT+ football players. That does not imply that she herself is LGBT. A
tweet that took a screencap has the quote I think if players like me and Danielle can make people feel more comfortable and proud of who they are, then that's a good thing, but it is missing on
the article from The Sun, which is considered a deprecated reliable source here. —
Tenryuu 🐲 (
💬 •
📝 ) 17:04, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
That is not true! If you read the Pink News source, it states at the start of the article that it is a list of lesbians, stating "So whether you’re a lesbian or not, take note of these incredible women who love women". Beth Mead is on that list. So it clearly presents Mead as lesbian, let alone LGBT. I suggest you read the article more closely. The Sun is not a reliable source, it is a tabloid, and it certainly should not override the Gay Star News as a more reliable source. Also, just because it doesn't mention the relationship doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
AmSam13 (
talk) 17:22, 30 May 2020 (UTC)reply
I dare say the players are together (like many others) but we have to consider
verifiability, not truth. I've been around here long enough in various guises to remember back when some fairly obvious/blatant soccer lesbians (Hope Powell, Abby Wambach) hadn't 'officially' come out so we had to keep dutifully deleting this kind of gossip added by well-meaning editors. To be honest it sometimes felt a bit like a waste of effort because it was pretty clear the stuff being added was true, and at
WP:WOSO we were obviously very supportive and pro-lesbian in general. I remember at the time I went around seeking advice from the women's sports and LGBT wikiprojects and the feedback seemed to be that to include this stuff the bar has to be set high ie. we need exceptionally strong sources. In my opinion that would look more mainstream like the Littlejohn/McCabe one above, rather than the examples you've laid out here. It's potentially a thorny issue because of privacy concerns etc. which affect us as Wikipedians due to our rules, more than they would for a writer at one of these advocacy blogs. They all tend to copy off each other and are (quite naturally) working to a different agenda. I can see you've been making the same kind of edits and got some pushback at
Lucy Bronze and
Leah Williamson. My advice is to try and listen to what other more experienced editors are telling you,
drop it for now, but 'keep an eye out' for some better quality sources to come along later.
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 11:33, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the information, that is indeed helpful. The thing is, I think that I have found at least three sources that are exceptionally strong sources for this matter. The case for the three in question is as follows:
1) Outsports article:
https://www.outsports.com/2019/6/11/18660301/out-gay-lesbian-bi-2019-women-world-cup-soccer. There is not anything on
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources about Outsports specifically, however
Outsports has been owned by Vox Media since 2013. As stated on
Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources, "Vox is considered generally reliable". The Outsports site in general is also run as part of
SB Nation, which is also owned by the generally reliable Vox Media. This makes me think that Outsports is probably considered a generally reliable source by Wikipedia, as a subsidiary of Vox Media? The Outsports article also not only documents Mead's sexual orientation identity but also that of her alleged partner, Daniëlle van de Donk, and it cites this source to support its claim:
https://spelersvrouw.nl/beth-mead-vriendin-van-danielle-van-de-donk/. Unfortunately, I don't speak Dutch, so I was not able to fully look into whether this article/news site is a reputable source (perhaps some of the Dutch speakers among us could help me here!), but as a reputable news site with referenced claims I think the Outsports article would have a very good claim to being a exceptionally reliable source.
So I do think that there at least three exceptionally strong sources on this matter to be able to verify the claim.
AmSam13 (
talk) 22:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)reply
Thank you for the detailed response, but no, I can't agree with this at all. 1) and 2) are salacious blog-style
listicles. The Gay Star one is by admission based on "reader tips" and the first one ultimately derives from the players' Instagram accounts! Far from being exceptionally strong, they are nowhere near the standard of source required. For the third one, show me the Guardian article - there isn't one - I suspect one of the players listed in there had it 'spiked'. DIVA construct their lists from public votes, irrespective of whether the subjects wants to be in there. There is an article
here which is a handy accessible explainer, for those of us who are not lesbians, about this issue and the 'levels' involved in 'coming out'. Seriously, if the players concerned don't want their status widely published, we have to back off. Quite apart from
WP:BLP concerns around accuracy, legality, ethics, etc. we have to think of the players. You obviously follow the game closely and have great knowledge of the players involved, I am sure the last thing you want to do is cause them any unnecessary upset.
Bring back Daz Sampson (
talk) 22:54, 1 June 2020 (UTC)reply
To be fair though I don’t see what’s wrong with the gay star news. It’s not generated by readers tips like you say I don’t know where you’ve got that from. Also what’s wrong with Spielersvrouw as a source. And it is true that the gay star news is used on other living person articles
Speaker of Truth and Wisdom (
talk) 12:35, 29 June 2020 (UTC)reply
We don't need to consider whether the source is reliable or whether
SPAs should be adding juicy details to BLP articles. That's because articles do not list the current girl/boy-friends of subjects, not unless a reliable source documents the long-term significance of the friendship. There is a certain amount of tolerance for gossip at celebrity articles where sources often talk about little else other than the star's possible relationships, but who is dating-whom is not central to the biography of a footballer—not unless a reliable source explains otherwise.
Johnuniq (
talk) 06:51, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Balderdash. If you are going to add a person's article to the category 'LGBT association football players', you need to provide a reference. Its only right. You should know that. Therefore, the existence of a same-sex relationship in this case is entirely relevant. As it is for other pages where the 'LGBT association football players' category is added. Its not about providing celebrity 'gossip', just a reference for why that player's article is in a certain category. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
AmSam13 (
talk •
contribs) 10:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)reply
Johnuniq,
Bring back Daz Sampson,
Tenryuu, just a note to say that AmSam13 is a sock, and Speaker of Truth blah blah is the same person. If you all edit similar articles, be on the lookout: one of their fascinations is with the gayness of female athletes and celebrities. Thanks,
Drmies (
talk) 15:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Thanks for the action and update.
Johnuniq (
talk) 23:26, 9 August 2020 (UTC)reply
Move discussion in progress
There is a move discussion in progress on
Talk:Steven Cook which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —
RMCD bot 12:37, 6 July 2022 (UTC)reply