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On 2 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Bernardine of Siena. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
I am removing the following as the reference points to Savonarola rather than Bernardino. (A quick search didn’t turn up anything about the latter on the site.)
, such as "cards and dice, fineries of women's dress, looking-glasses, bad books, musical instruments, pictures, and statues." Such behavior has been seen as a want of judgement. [1]
- Ian Spackman 21:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not clear what this phrase means. What was given to what, exactly? Or perhaps ‘donations’ was intended to be ‘devotions’? If anyone can clarify the sentence, that would be good. Here is the context:
It was said that Feuds and factionalism was reconciled by his counsel and that miracles took place, donations to the Holy Name of Jesus (which he preached particularly) increasing dramatically.
- Ian Spackman 21:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
devotions does seem to be a better word. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Until today this was given as Massa Marittima, in the province of Grosseto. The new saint box gives it as Massa di Carrea. Asuming that’s a typo it could refer to Province of Massa-Carrara or to Massa di Carrara. Which is correct?
it:San Bernardino da Siena has Massa Marittima. de:Bernhardin von Siena has Province of Massa-Carrara. The Book of Saints ( ISBN 0-304-34357-9) favours Massa Marittima. As does santiebeati.it.
So I am changing it to Massa di Carrea to Massa Marittima. But I might of course be wrong… - Ian Spackman 07:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed including this article under the LGBT studies project; not because I'm arguing that Bernardino was homosexual (an intriguing if absurd idea...) But rather because of his significant impact on LGBT issues. His preaching against sodomy in Siena and Florence had a profound impact in historical and geographical terms; and as such is of relevance and interest to LGBT studies. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I notice that much of this page is copied word for word from the Catholic Encyclopedia, awkward grammar and all. This should be rewritten.
Hammer Bros. ( talk) 00:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
May I suggest clarifying what Bernardino meant by "sodomy"? Did he mean "anal sex" overall or only "male homosexual anal sex"?
Whichever of these he meant, could the appropriate text be substituted for "sodomy"? The article should certainly gain in specificity and NPOV - and, IMO, Wikipedia should not endorse Bernardino's views by using his language - except when directly quoting him.
Trujaman ( talk) 03:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
In my view this article is discursive and repetitive, especially the section on sodomy. It belabors the point that sodomy does not equal homosexuality, but isn't that more of a point of interest for the contemporary cultural wars? Emphasizing the issue repeatedly sends the article on an irrelvant tangent.
Furthermore, the focus on sodomy limits the scope of the article. Bernardino was not simply a "missionary" as the article states; he was essentially one of the first evangelists (perhaps the first) with mass appeal, who used new media (print) to hold massive revivals which were as much entertainments as religious sermons. This point is ignored or overlooked, as is the fact that he was an ardent witch hunter who encouraged the execution (at the stake) of natural healers, whom he attacked as witches. The argument ccould be made that Bernardino was a more adent foe of healers than of sodomists; his fervent role in the burning of both sodomists and healers goes unmentioned.
This article would be improved if contributors would look at additional original sources, including The Preacher's Demons by Franco Mormando. -- Woodlandpath ( talk) 14:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
It's difficult, if not impossible, to properly interpret the 14th century (or the first, for that matter), with a 21st century frame of mind. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
I am not arguing so much about the content but the form of presentation, which is not neutral. To use just one word as an example, many religions, and many of their preachers can be called "fanatic" - Religious fanaticism (but they are not in wikipedia), and this is not dealt with in the article. Other sources on "fanaticism" should be cited to assess its "degree" in an appropriate context.
Similarly, to be "completely isolated from society" is close to what should have been done to poets acc. to Plato's Republic - and this is hardly prominent in the article about Plato. And so on; - to sum up, I woudl suggest not to use such a fanatic language in this article even if certain authors, preachers of today, do ;-) WikiHannibal ( talk) 01:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
I can't help but object to the article's inflammatory use of the politically-loaded terms "homophobia" and "misogyny". These are terms which have an inherent political bent to them and damage the article's impartiality. I would suggest that the simple statements to the effect of "Savonarolla frequently preached against sodomy" would be sufficient and would avoid altogether any kind of political or ideological bias.
I would concur that these more political terms are used to be inflammatory. What editing would need to be done? Theanswerman109 ( talk) 09:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC) Theanswerman109
"phobic" denotes a fear of something. Bernardino most certainly was not afraid of those engaging in homosexual acts. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
in Verona, he approvingly reminded listeners that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates; in Genoa, men were regularly burned; and in Venice a sodomite had been tied to a column along with a barrel of pitch and brushwood and set to fire. He advised the people of Siena to do the same.
"In Verona, he told his hearers that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates. In Genoa, men were regularly burned. He advised the Sienese to do the same. ...in Venice I saw a man tied to a column on high; and a barrel of pitch and brushwood and fire ..." [2] Louis Crompton, Homosexuality and Civilization, p.254. Mannanan51 ( talk) 18:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Bernardino of Siena → Bernardine of Siena – WP:COMMONNAME; sources may be half-and-half but the Americans speaking English know him uniformly as Bernardine. Catholic Encyclopedia, General Roman Calendar in UK, USCCB liturgical calendar all agree it's "Bernardine". Elizium23 ( talk) 15:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Isn't the profile image supposed to illustrate the subject? The one currently in the article is not doing a good job, as it shows only the face of Bernardino and does not present any of his attributes: the IHS or the three mitres representing the bishoprics he refused. Therefore, an image that shows these attributes should be used instead. Latin Beau 23:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 2 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Bernardine of Siena. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
I am removing the following as the reference points to Savonarola rather than Bernardino. (A quick search didn’t turn up anything about the latter on the site.)
, such as "cards and dice, fineries of women's dress, looking-glasses, bad books, musical instruments, pictures, and statues." Such behavior has been seen as a want of judgement. [1]
- Ian Spackman 21:39, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not clear what this phrase means. What was given to what, exactly? Or perhaps ‘donations’ was intended to be ‘devotions’? If anyone can clarify the sentence, that would be good. Here is the context:
It was said that Feuds and factionalism was reconciled by his counsel and that miracles took place, donations to the Holy Name of Jesus (which he preached particularly) increasing dramatically.
- Ian Spackman 21:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)
devotions does seem to be a better word. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:58, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
Until today this was given as Massa Marittima, in the province of Grosseto. The new saint box gives it as Massa di Carrea. Asuming that’s a typo it could refer to Province of Massa-Carrara or to Massa di Carrara. Which is correct?
it:San Bernardino da Siena has Massa Marittima. de:Bernhardin von Siena has Province of Massa-Carrara. The Book of Saints ( ISBN 0-304-34357-9) favours Massa Marittima. As does santiebeati.it.
So I am changing it to Massa di Carrea to Massa Marittima. But I might of course be wrong… - Ian Spackman 07:49, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed including this article under the LGBT studies project; not because I'm arguing that Bernardino was homosexual (an intriguing if absurd idea...) But rather because of his significant impact on LGBT issues. His preaching against sodomy in Siena and Florence had a profound impact in historical and geographical terms; and as such is of relevance and interest to LGBT studies. Contaldo80 ( talk) 08:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
I notice that much of this page is copied word for word from the Catholic Encyclopedia, awkward grammar and all. This should be rewritten.
Hammer Bros. ( talk) 00:07, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
May I suggest clarifying what Bernardino meant by "sodomy"? Did he mean "anal sex" overall or only "male homosexual anal sex"?
Whichever of these he meant, could the appropriate text be substituted for "sodomy"? The article should certainly gain in specificity and NPOV - and, IMO, Wikipedia should not endorse Bernardino's views by using his language - except when directly quoting him.
Trujaman ( talk) 03:02, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
In my view this article is discursive and repetitive, especially the section on sodomy. It belabors the point that sodomy does not equal homosexuality, but isn't that more of a point of interest for the contemporary cultural wars? Emphasizing the issue repeatedly sends the article on an irrelvant tangent.
Furthermore, the focus on sodomy limits the scope of the article. Bernardino was not simply a "missionary" as the article states; he was essentially one of the first evangelists (perhaps the first) with mass appeal, who used new media (print) to hold massive revivals which were as much entertainments as religious sermons. This point is ignored or overlooked, as is the fact that he was an ardent witch hunter who encouraged the execution (at the stake) of natural healers, whom he attacked as witches. The argument ccould be made that Bernardino was a more adent foe of healers than of sodomists; his fervent role in the burning of both sodomists and healers goes unmentioned.
This article would be improved if contributors would look at additional original sources, including The Preacher's Demons by Franco Mormando. -- Woodlandpath ( talk) 14:51, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
It's difficult, if not impossible, to properly interpret the 14th century (or the first, for that matter), with a 21st century frame of mind. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:57, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
I am not arguing so much about the content but the form of presentation, which is not neutral. To use just one word as an example, many religions, and many of their preachers can be called "fanatic" - Religious fanaticism (but they are not in wikipedia), and this is not dealt with in the article. Other sources on "fanaticism" should be cited to assess its "degree" in an appropriate context.
Similarly, to be "completely isolated from society" is close to what should have been done to poets acc. to Plato's Republic - and this is hardly prominent in the article about Plato. And so on; - to sum up, I woudl suggest not to use such a fanatic language in this article even if certain authors, preachers of today, do ;-) WikiHannibal ( talk) 01:23, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Hi,
I can't help but object to the article's inflammatory use of the politically-loaded terms "homophobia" and "misogyny". These are terms which have an inherent political bent to them and damage the article's impartiality. I would suggest that the simple statements to the effect of "Savonarolla frequently preached against sodomy" would be sufficient and would avoid altogether any kind of political or ideological bias.
I would concur that these more political terms are used to be inflammatory. What editing would need to be done? Theanswerman109 ( talk) 09:54, 6 June 2016 (UTC) Theanswerman109
"phobic" denotes a fear of something. Bernardino most certainly was not afraid of those engaging in homosexual acts. MichelleP12 ( talk) 15:53, 3 June 2022 (UTC)
in Verona, he approvingly reminded listeners that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates; in Genoa, men were regularly burned; and in Venice a sodomite had been tied to a column along with a barrel of pitch and brushwood and set to fire. He advised the people of Siena to do the same.
"In Verona, he told his hearers that a man was quartered and his limbs hung from the city gates. In Genoa, men were regularly burned. He advised the Sienese to do the same. ...in Venice I saw a man tied to a column on high; and a barrel of pitch and brushwood and fire ..." [2] Louis Crompton, Homosexuality and Civilization, p.254. Mannanan51 ( talk) 18:02, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Bernardino of Siena. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 15:00, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) The Night Watch (talk) 17:24, 9 January 2023 (UTC)
Bernardino of Siena → Bernardine of Siena – WP:COMMONNAME; sources may be half-and-half but the Americans speaking English know him uniformly as Bernardine. Catholic Encyclopedia, General Roman Calendar in UK, USCCB liturgical calendar all agree it's "Bernardine". Elizium23 ( talk) 15:11, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
Isn't the profile image supposed to illustrate the subject? The one currently in the article is not doing a good job, as it shows only the face of Bernardino and does not present any of his attributes: the IHS or the three mitres representing the bishoprics he refused. Therefore, an image that shows these attributes should be used instead. Latin Beau 23:45, 26 March 2023 (UTC)