This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Beowulf (2007 film) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Beowulf (2007 film) was a Media and drama good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
Headlines. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 05:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)- Liquidfinale ( Ţ) ( Ç) ( Ŵ) 12:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to open discussion on a few points regarding this article.
a. Cast list - I'm not entirely certain its present state conforms with Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines, which discourages use of a list. I would like to propose that the Cast section be altered to better adhere to the suggestions given here which encourage prose (the existing commentary on the first two characters is a good start). One possible suggestion would be to convert to prose after the film is released and more is known about the characters.
b. Under the Production section, there is a part of the first paragraph which reads, "Their objective was to better connect the third act to the second, which is separated by fifty years in the poem. This was done in order to offer the filmmaker's interpretation for possible motivations behind Grendel's behavior..."
Since the "Acts" occur in the film, not the poem, I think that this section needs to be re-written in the following way for clarity:
"Their objective was to offer their own interpretation for possible motivations behind Grendel's behavior as well as for what might have happened during the time when Beowulf was in the cave of Grendel's mother (choices which they justified by arguing that Beowulf was an unreliable narrator). This also helped them to better connect the third act to the second of their screenplay (which is represented in the poem by a fifty year gap)."
c. The following section was removed. It is not uncommon for articles on films based upon classic works of literature to ask if the actors had read the works. The text can certainly be tweaked but I do feel that the information fulfills Wikipedia guidelines and should appear in the article somewhere:
"Actors Ray Winestone and Anthony Hopkins stated in an interview that they had had not read the original poem Beowulf but liked the script created for the film. Angelina Jolie also stated in the same interview that she had read Beowulf years ago but could not remember it well, until she read the script and was able to recall basic themes. [1] Zemeckis said he was not a fan of the original poem, but absolutely loved Gaiman and Avery's screenplay." [2]
- Classicfilms 16:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The cast section is shaping up quite well. I thought that it was a great idea to move point "c" above to the cast section. Since there is now so much text, at least for the two lead actors, I would like to propose that we start to reformat the section and convert it from a list to paragraphs to better adhere to Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines. - Classicfilms 21:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest phasing out the review from Ain't It Cool News when other reviews are published. AICN is hardly the gold standard when it comes to critical reaction, and there will be many suitable replacements. Just wanted to make that suggestion. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 16:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Here's the review from The New York Times. It should replace something like IGN. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 14:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Why would you assume a publication is any more reliable or authoritative than an internet source, simply because it is more widely circulated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.140.70 ( talk) 02:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The date here says the 16th but I saw it last night (14th) here in Korea. Mithridates 04:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0442933/releaseinfo It was released on the 14th in a few Eastern Asian countries, the 15th in Germany and a few more places in Eastern Asia, and the 16th in the UK and the USA. Puceron 08:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I just had a look in my local shop and saw The Art Of Beowulf ( ISBN 0811860388), which is a fantastic look at the film's symbolism (if you thought it's locations were just a hall, cave and castle, think again). I'm not sure when my local libraries will stock this, so I recommend anyone to pick it up and cite it. Some things I gleamed:
Alientraveller 14:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, the period of time between Beowulfs two main battles (vs. Grendel/Grendels mother, and vs. the dragon) is similar in the poem and the film. In both cases the latter battle occur a long period of time after the first one, and after Beowulf has reigned as king for many years. Therefore, the part of the introduction to this article which states this element to be one notable difference between the poem and the film is in my mind wrong and should be deleted.
193.217.153.220 ( talk) 23:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the man speaking of Jesus in the party, King Hrothgar not wanting to switch to the new Christian God and the church being burned by the Beowulf's son, the way Unferth treated his slave moments after asking forgiveness from Beowulf seems nothing short of a nod to Jesus' Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. There may have been other Bible analogies in this poorly done film but I didn't catch them. Were there any others? And should they me mentioned in this article? --Is this fact... ? 11:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The section below, which discusses the differences with the poem Beowulf, was removed. The argument was made that this information exists in the Production section. However, the Production section only briefly refers to two elements mentioned below: a general reference to Grendel's motives as well as to the relationship between Beowulf and Grendel's mother. It does not refer to a number of the other significant differences which are listed in the section below.
It is not uncommon for a film to deviate from the novel (or in this case, poem) on which it is based. A standard example is the novel, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and the film on which it is loosely based, Blade Runner. Both are notable works in their own right, but are very different. Virtually every article ever written on either the novel or the film, including the articles written for the Wikipedia, note these differences.
Another example is the book, The Godfather (novel) and the film, The Godfather. Again, both articles reference the differences, and the film article has a long section devoted to them:
In the same fashion as the works listed above, the differences between the poem Beowulf and this film should be referenced, particularly for readers who have not read the poem. The section below is open to tweaks and re-writes, but should be restored in some fashion to the article.
While some of the film remains true to the poem Beowulf, the plot (particularly in the second half of the film) deviates significantly from the original, and certain elements were created specifically for the screenplay. Deviations from the original work include the style and tone of the dialog, the hedonism in Heorot, the portrayal of King Hrothgar as a "drunk," the elimination of his three children (two sons and a daughter) with Wealtheow, and his suicide. These deviations also include which kingdom Beowulf rules, Grendel's mother's seductions of Hrothgar (making him the father of Grendel) and Beowulf (making him the father of the dragon) as well as Beowulf's marriage to Wealtheow. Finally these deviations include the elimination of the long battle sequence between Grendel's mother and Beowulf (which ends with her death) as well as the introduction of his mistress Ursula (a character who does not appear in the original poem). The filmmakers argue that some of these deviations are their corrections to the version offered by the original poem, with the movie depicting events which could not have been known to the poet. [1]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
- Classicfilms ( talk) 03:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't delete it, I moved it. There's now a more cohesive section focusing on the writer's interpretation and the academic reaction. I thought it'd be worthwhile, this being a bold new take on the tale. Alientraveller ( talk) 09:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The following review was removed. As it is one of the most notable sources I think it should be restored. - Classicfilms 03:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
New York Times critic Manohla Dargis also argued that, "Stripped of much of the original poem’s language, its cadences, deep history and context, this film version of Beowulf doesn’t offer much beyond 3-D oohs and ahs, sword clanging and a nicely conceived dragon, which probably explains why Mr. Zemeckis and his collaborators have tried to sex it up with Ms. Jolie, among other comic-book flourishes." [1]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
The length of the plot section is rather excessive considering that the basic story is very well known. I've attempted to shorten and clarify it a bit, but more editing would be welcome. I do not, however, think it does much good to say that the section is too long when reverting it to an even longer version, as Alientraveller has done. Perhaps this was a mistake, though. In any event, I've restored my (somewhat) shorter version of the plot section. CKarnstein 20:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
When is this coming out on BD? After BD won the format war, Paramount said they would return to supporting it, so.....when's it coming out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PowderedToastMan ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
From the opening "Beowulf is a 2007 motion capture film loosely based on the Old English epic poem of the same name". I think it is fair to say that Beowulf (2007 film) is based pretty squarely on the Beowulf story. Nothing loose about it in fact, it seems to be directly based on Beowulf. JayKeaton ( talk) 16:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Beowulf cover.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --19:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:20, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Beowulf (2007 film) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Beowulf (2007 film) was a Media and drama good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
|
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
Headlines. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 05:03, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)- Liquidfinale ( Ţ) ( Ç) ( Ŵ) 12:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
I would like to open discussion on a few points regarding this article.
a. Cast list - I'm not entirely certain its present state conforms with Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines, which discourages use of a list. I would like to propose that the Cast section be altered to better adhere to the suggestions given here which encourage prose (the existing commentary on the first two characters is a good start). One possible suggestion would be to convert to prose after the film is released and more is known about the characters.
b. Under the Production section, there is a part of the first paragraph which reads, "Their objective was to better connect the third act to the second, which is separated by fifty years in the poem. This was done in order to offer the filmmaker's interpretation for possible motivations behind Grendel's behavior..."
Since the "Acts" occur in the film, not the poem, I think that this section needs to be re-written in the following way for clarity:
"Their objective was to offer their own interpretation for possible motivations behind Grendel's behavior as well as for what might have happened during the time when Beowulf was in the cave of Grendel's mother (choices which they justified by arguing that Beowulf was an unreliable narrator). This also helped them to better connect the third act to the second of their screenplay (which is represented in the poem by a fifty year gap)."
c. The following section was removed. It is not uncommon for articles on films based upon classic works of literature to ask if the actors had read the works. The text can certainly be tweaked but I do feel that the information fulfills Wikipedia guidelines and should appear in the article somewhere:
"Actors Ray Winestone and Anthony Hopkins stated in an interview that they had had not read the original poem Beowulf but liked the script created for the film. Angelina Jolie also stated in the same interview that she had read Beowulf years ago but could not remember it well, until she read the script and was able to recall basic themes. [1] Zemeckis said he was not a fan of the original poem, but absolutely loved Gaiman and Avery's screenplay." [2]
- Classicfilms 16:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The cast section is shaping up quite well. I thought that it was a great idea to move point "c" above to the cast section. Since there is now so much text, at least for the two lead actors, I would like to propose that we start to reformat the section and convert it from a list to paragraphs to better adhere to Wikipedia:WikiProject Films/Style guidelines. - Classicfilms 21:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest phasing out the review from Ain't It Cool News when other reviews are published. AICN is hardly the gold standard when it comes to critical reaction, and there will be many suitable replacements. Just wanted to make that suggestion. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 16:45, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Here's the review from The New York Times. It should replace something like IGN. — Erik ( talk • contrib) - 14:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Why would you assume a publication is any more reliable or authoritative than an internet source, simply because it is more widely circulated? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.140.70 ( talk) 02:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
The date here says the 16th but I saw it last night (14th) here in Korea. Mithridates 04:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
http://imdb.com/title/tt0442933/releaseinfo It was released on the 14th in a few Eastern Asian countries, the 15th in Germany and a few more places in Eastern Asia, and the 16th in the UK and the USA. Puceron 08:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
I just had a look in my local shop and saw The Art Of Beowulf ( ISBN 0811860388), which is a fantastic look at the film's symbolism (if you thought it's locations were just a hall, cave and castle, think again). I'm not sure when my local libraries will stock this, so I recommend anyone to pick it up and cite it. Some things I gleamed:
Alientraveller 14:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
As I understand it, the period of time between Beowulfs two main battles (vs. Grendel/Grendels mother, and vs. the dragon) is similar in the poem and the film. In both cases the latter battle occur a long period of time after the first one, and after Beowulf has reigned as king for many years. Therefore, the part of the introduction to this article which states this element to be one notable difference between the poem and the film is in my mind wrong and should be deleted.
193.217.153.220 ( talk) 23:28, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the man speaking of Jesus in the party, King Hrothgar not wanting to switch to the new Christian God and the church being burned by the Beowulf's son, the way Unferth treated his slave moments after asking forgiveness from Beowulf seems nothing short of a nod to Jesus' Parable of the Unmerciful Servant. There may have been other Bible analogies in this poorly done film but I didn't catch them. Were there any others? And should they me mentioned in this article? --Is this fact... ? 11:00, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The section below, which discusses the differences with the poem Beowulf, was removed. The argument was made that this information exists in the Production section. However, the Production section only briefly refers to two elements mentioned below: a general reference to Grendel's motives as well as to the relationship between Beowulf and Grendel's mother. It does not refer to a number of the other significant differences which are listed in the section below.
It is not uncommon for a film to deviate from the novel (or in this case, poem) on which it is based. A standard example is the novel, Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep and the film on which it is loosely based, Blade Runner. Both are notable works in their own right, but are very different. Virtually every article ever written on either the novel or the film, including the articles written for the Wikipedia, note these differences.
Another example is the book, The Godfather (novel) and the film, The Godfather. Again, both articles reference the differences, and the film article has a long section devoted to them:
In the same fashion as the works listed above, the differences between the poem Beowulf and this film should be referenced, particularly for readers who have not read the poem. The section below is open to tweaks and re-writes, but should be restored in some fashion to the article.
While some of the film remains true to the poem Beowulf, the plot (particularly in the second half of the film) deviates significantly from the original, and certain elements were created specifically for the screenplay. Deviations from the original work include the style and tone of the dialog, the hedonism in Heorot, the portrayal of King Hrothgar as a "drunk," the elimination of his three children (two sons and a daughter) with Wealtheow, and his suicide. These deviations also include which kingdom Beowulf rules, Grendel's mother's seductions of Hrothgar (making him the father of Grendel) and Beowulf (making him the father of the dragon) as well as Beowulf's marriage to Wealtheow. Finally these deviations include the elimination of the long battle sequence between Grendel's mother and Beowulf (which ends with her death) as well as the introduction of his mistress Ursula (a character who does not appear in the original poem). The filmmakers argue that some of these deviations are their corrections to the version offered by the original poem, with the movie depicting events which could not have been known to the poet. [1]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help)
- Classicfilms ( talk) 03:06, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
I didn't delete it, I moved it. There's now a more cohesive section focusing on the writer's interpretation and the academic reaction. I thought it'd be worthwhile, this being a bold new take on the tale. Alientraveller ( talk) 09:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The following review was removed. As it is one of the most notable sources I think it should be restored. - Classicfilms 03:54, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
New York Times critic Manohla Dargis also argued that, "Stripped of much of the original poem’s language, its cadences, deep history and context, this film version of Beowulf doesn’t offer much beyond 3-D oohs and ahs, sword clanging and a nicely conceived dragon, which probably explains why Mr. Zemeckis and his collaborators have tried to sex it up with Ms. Jolie, among other comic-book flourishes." [1]
{{
cite news}}
: Check date values in: |date=
(
help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher=
(
help)
The length of the plot section is rather excessive considering that the basic story is very well known. I've attempted to shorten and clarify it a bit, but more editing would be welcome. I do not, however, think it does much good to say that the section is too long when reverting it to an even longer version, as Alientraveller has done. Perhaps this was a mistake, though. In any event, I've restored my (somewhat) shorter version of the plot section. CKarnstein 20:15, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
When is this coming out on BD? After BD won the format war, Paramount said they would return to supporting it, so.....when's it coming out? —Preceding unsigned comment added by PowderedToastMan ( talk • contribs) 00:29, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
From the opening "Beowulf is a 2007 motion capture film loosely based on the Old English epic poem of the same name". I think it is fair to say that Beowulf (2007 film) is based pretty squarely on the Beowulf story. Nothing loose about it in fact, it seems to be directly based on Beowulf. JayKeaton ( talk) 16:09, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
The image File:Beowulf cover.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --19:03, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 06:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 7 external links on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:20, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Beowulf (2007 film). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:33, 8 January 2018 (UTC)