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More info please on how the figure of Harold II is mis-identified. Leo
Help! the Edit Page is broken. User:Renata 24/9/2002
When I try to edit from my home PC, I get an empty box, overlaid with "Warning....no header...." messages. When I try from my work PC, it's okay. It's a mystery to me. User:Renata
Who considers it the precursor of the comic strip?
Here, in France, it's much more know as the "tapisserie de Bayeux" than as the "tapisserie de la reine Mathilde". But my english is to poor for me to modify the article. Alvaro 14:53 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
At present, the article does not state when the tapestry was actually created. Perhaps some smart person can add that.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 03:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
...its serial storytelling is considered an ancestor of the comic strip.
The Bayeux Tapestry is an ancestor of comic strip? Medieval storytelling was highly graphic (in large past as most people could not read) and there is a long tradition of graphic serial story telling that goes back to, well, pre-historic cave paintings. It's unclear what the connection to comic strips and the Bayeux Tapestry is. This was not the first graphic serial story. Stbalbach 22:20, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.232.117 ( talk) 04:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object (or support) this article being reverted to the pre-June 4th version, before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 ? Stbalbach 04:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The assertion in the article that, "The main artist must have been a Frenchman," is somewhat dubious. Much work has been done in this field and there is actually significant indication that the Tapestry was the design of an English artist. As well as the skill and renown of English embroiderers at the time, the use of Latin derived from Old English and key details in the depictions suggest an Anglo-Saxon construction that was designed to appease the Norman invaders, while asserting the illegitimacy of their reign to all Englishmen (and any other Germanic people). These include: 1) An apparently apologetic Harold on his return to England (having sworn an oath) and Edward apparently admonishing his earl. This scene is inconsistent with the Norman assertion that Harold was sent to provide surety for William's succession. 2) Harold's apparent heroism in dragging member's of William's army out of the quick-sand near the River Couesnon would appear to have been included to demonstrate Harold's nobility and further emphasise the abuse of William in forcing the earl to swear an oath. This is consistent with Anglo-Saxon legal tradition that rejected sworn oaths made under duress. 3) In the scene depicting Edward's deathbed, Harold and Edward's fingers are touching, following the Anglo-Saxon tradition of a pictorial narrative. This touching of hands was symbolic of a solemn commendation, i.e. Edward was solemnly conferring the throne to Harold. (This scene also confirms the arrangements identified in the Vita Ædwardi, which may well have been written at Canterbury around the same time that the Tapestry was being undertaken. The Tapestry most likely having been produced at St. Augustine's, Canterbury). 4) There are key differences between the events as depicted in the Tapestry and in Norman sources. The Tapestry is, however, consistent with Anglo-Saxon sources such as the Vita Ædwardi and Eadmer.
Given this, does anyone have reasonable objection to a change in the article that identifies the artist as English (or most likely English)? Valiant Son 13:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be kind of dubious to assert one way or the other. I recall at least one place where William's name is (presumably mistakenly) rendered with the French spelling, and I wouldn't think an Englishman would make that mistake. Also, my understanding of the swearing on holy relics was to demonstrate that Harold violated that oath and paid for it with his crown and his life. That might just be the Norman interpretation, of course... but it was supposedly the reason that this tapestry hung in a Norman church for a long time: to teach a moral lesson. Wahkeenah 22:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I haven't really suggested an assertion that the artist was English. Instead I have presented a reasoned and substantiated precis of evidence that strongly suggests that he was. (Hence the 'most likely).
There is every reason to presume that an English artist would use a derivation from the French for William's name as this was the name by which William was principally known in England and was that used by him in documents. (The place you are thinking of is in Plate 13 "Here a messenger has come to Duke William" and Plates 15-16 "William, Duke of the Normans" "Here Duke William with Harold"). Also it should be remembered that there have been siginificant 'repairs' to the tapestry and some were much less sympathetic than others. Irrespective of this, the linguistic evidence is greater for an English author and is a point that is accepted by many historians.
The swearing of an oath was spread as part of the Norman propaganda. However, this is not the issue that I was specifically concerned with here. Rather I was discussing the symbolism of the scene and the later scene of Harold's return to King Edward. Whether or not you accept that this was under duress is irrelevant here as we are looking at the artist behind the tapestry and not at the specifics of the succession. The suggestion that it hung as morality lesson is pure conjecture. It is much more probable that it was to legitimise the invasion. William did not receive wholesale approval for his actions. There was concern from many of the neighbouring French dukes about this increased power and the implication that William was prepared to usurp authority. (Indeed the French king was concerned about this). Also let's not forget that William had to do pennance for his actions throught the construction of Battle Abbey. This was all part of his campaign to be seen as a legitimate king. (It doesn't matter whether or not he was. He needed to be Italic textseenItalic text to be.
For a full and well respected account of the symbolism within the tapestry see the following (I only highlighted some key aspects to provide a grounding for my point)
N.P. Brooks and H.E. Walker, 'The authority and interpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry', Italic textAnglo-Norman StudiesItalic text, 1 (1979), pp.1-34 Valiant Son 23:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Based on comments above, I'm taking the bold step of reverting the article back to the version before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 on June 4th, back to the May 31 2005 version. 67.191.224.15 has not responded either to fix concerns listed above, or to provide more information on sources, and further problems have arisen with NPOV and factual concerns. This is a complicated topic, that has many theories, and only a single POV is being presented in a format that makes it very difficult if not impossible for other editors to edit. In addition much of the material is simply triva that has nothing to do with the tapestry and is not very Wikipedia-like. The current article still needs a lot of work. It would be good to have some structure such as "there are many theories who made it.. one is.." to set the precedent, so we can start listing theories. Stbalbach 07:21, 20 October 2005 (UT
This is absurd. The article did have some NPOV, but with some editing this could have been removed. Instead, you showed up, took a two second look and blew away 5 months of edits. Someone needs to revert this back. -- JDooley 02:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I didnt just show up, see my comments above from June when the mass of new text was first put in. It's unfortanate 5 months have gone by since. In addition to the NPOV and non-Wikipedia like nature, I'm fairly certain the text added by 67.191.224.15 is a copyvio, although I have not found the source yet, it is too professional and polished, and reads like a National Geographic magazine from the 1960s (which is listed as of the sources). Questions about it have gone unanswered from 67.191.224.15. As I said, this is a bold step. Since you dont agree and have reverted it back, I expect you will take responsibility for fixing the problems? I await your reply on how to resolve this before reverting back. Stbalbach 03:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a tough call. He seems to be paraphrasing much of it, although he is also citing the authors for various segments, on the theory that multiple plagiarism = "research". Some of it's pretty close. I haven't studied it in depth, but one of the first lines that jumped out me was as follows:
Wahkeenah 01:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Guys, was just glancing at this article whilst revising for an exam on the Norman Conquest and spotted some huge errors. Much of the text was not a description of what the Tapestry shows, but rather a slightly-Norman biased story of the Conquest itself. I've gone through it now with my copy of the Tapestry in front of me and taken out a lot of stuff, and added some stuff in about where there are controversies, etc. It's by no means perfect now - I'm not used to Wikipedia-ing so I've probably not linked in properly and stuff, and it may not explain everything to someone without basic knowledge of the Norman Conquest, but at least it's no longer totally misleading about what the Tapestry depicts. I'll get back to this after my exam and fill some more stuff in! I also stupidly didn't read the talk page before I edited, so apologies if I've trodden on anyone's feet here. I should also probably get a user account so you can track me easily too... in the meantime here's my IP address! 87.74.9.233 20:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
As Malecasta noted above in October, the article still needs a lot of work (the origins part). But at least the nature of the debate is more clearly outlined and not so muddled. We need (a lot) more detail on the specifics on both sides. As the article stands today, based on the material we started with, it leans heavily in the pro-Anglo-Saxon side of things which is probably not good. Stbalbach 07:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The edits by anon user are correct, the article should be written in the past tense, it is either a policy, or at least MoS guidelines. Otherwise it reads like where the article is sourced from: a National Geographic author who spent a few months traveling around England/France and writing a journalistic report. -- Stbalbach 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
This article does little more than assert, So-and-so thinks X created the tapestry. Some other people think Y created the tapestry. X is probably right." If it instead presented the case for each side, cited precise attributions, and offered corresponding illustrations to demonstrate the case for each side - then it might have the makings of a featured article. Durova 18:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if this is a good or constructive idea (depends on what sources the present article used and a couple other factors)... I admit to being no specialist on the question, and not having much in the way of creditable sources... But I thought it might be clever to check Wiki-French and try to see if that article is better than this one, and if necessary to fish the juicy bits and translate them here. Is this a tolerated procedure? Do you folk think it's a good idea in the first place? In case the motion should be approved, I, as a native French speaker, and having opened my big hole in the first place would volunteer to do it... and a bat bit of work it should be, as the two articles are organized differently, and comparing data will not be that clear cut. -- Svartalf 01:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see anything about references to the tapestry in modern (pop) culture, though I presume there are many. One I came across recently was in a computer game, and I append a screenshot. The section of the tapestry shown here runs from Harold and William approaching Rouen to the departure of William for Mont St. Michel. In between is the famous Aelfgyva and the cleric scene. There is at least another section displayed in the game, featuring the scenes showing the construction of Westminster and the funeral of Edward.
Neale Monks 14:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I recall there was some minor controversey over the tapestry several years ago over what appeared to be a turkey on the border. This was held as proof of pre-coloumbian contact with the americas. I believe it was disproved but is it worth a mention on the article anyway? Amanoman 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Bayeux tapestry is being made again by YTMND users as they include bayeux tapestry versions of various YTMND fads, from "Nigga stole my bike" to "Yonder moor coveted mine steed", The original "You're the man now dog" to "Thou art the man henseforth dog", or even "What is Love" to "What doth love be"
Post made by flashn00b
Is this why this article is listed under internet memes? Because there's nothing in the article to say why it's a 'net meme as far as I can see. I'm confused! Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not sure why it is listed in this category. If anyone could clarify this? Thanks Redclaire 17:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, SomethingAwful parodied it before YTMND did -- 70.153.238.116 02:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It is indeed an Internet Meme. It should have at least a mention in the article, I think.
RC-960018 (
talk) 06:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I wonder what can be said about the Latin text. Maybe there are some clues about who wrote it, to judge by the text itself. Maybe it is possible to comment on its literary quality as well. Finally it would be nice to identify the style of letters and how that fits with pen-written documents of the same age. 207.174.201.18 00:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What literary quality? There are hardly any structured sentences in it at all. Start from here and press the next image buttons. It shows literal translations of the Latin, which is more like annotations than a commentary. Jake95( talk!) 21:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Who/what is "L.Foaly"? It is at the end of one of the sentences, but no where else in the article. Is this a footnote to a source, what source? -- Stbalbach
I changed the link in the first paragraph from Normandy to Basse-Normandie, the actual region Bayeux is in. Jake95( talk!) 21:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Would this suffice as a reference for the New Yorker cover parody: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/interactive/_html/wc0220.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.54.82.97 ( talk) 18:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone please correct the "earliest reference" as in a 2007 Bayeux Cathedral inventory? 2007 is obviously not the first appearance of the tapestry. I would be interested in knowing when. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.7.98 ( talk) 22:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.westga.edu/~handbook/index.php?page=studentactivitiesandstudentorganizations http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/abroad.html http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/agp.html
don't currently have time to add them in but hope someone else can Werecowmoo ( talk) 15:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The word "restoration" does not appear in the article. Has there been any? A repair is mentioned from antiquity. Is there any record or speculation of what repairs have occurred? Tempshill ( talk) 00:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The third paragraph claims "the Latin text contains hints of Anglo Saxon" - this is an ambiguous statement. Does the writer mean that the language is that of the Anglo-Saxons ( Old English)? Or that the font style is reminiscent of Anglo-Saxon texts? Or something else? Perhaps someone with a better knowledge than me of the subject could clarify ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 16:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I just removed this picture from the lead. Yes it is a nice clear pic.... but it can't rightly be claimed to be the Bayeux tapestry. It is a painted representation of part of the tapestry, not a photgraph of the tapestry itself. That is why the colours are so clear and bright. Amandajm ( talk) 12:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Does there exist a scrollable image of the whole tapestry,
There is one at http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/ Ceola ( talk) 18:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
There's a strange paragraph at the end of the "Reliability" section. It's badly written, and anyone who knows exactly what it means should probably rewrite it, or it should be removed. I'll modify it a little, but I'm not certain exactly what it's about, so I will only touch it up superficially. -- PlantPerson ( talk) 00:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, the paragraph is now clean grammatically, but an expert should look it over... I don't really trust its accuracy, given the quality of the writing. -- PlantPerson ( talk) 00:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. It really needs to be explained what nude men have to do with opposition to Williams reign and why it would be shown under a scene meant to attack Harold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 ( talk) 06:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
The Mysteries section notes the clergyman touching the woman's face and the nude men; but the Reliability section claims these mysteries are solved. Could a knowledgeable editor edit appropriately? Comet Tuttle ( talk) 22:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the identifications of the Aelfgifu figure is given in the Wissolik (1979) paper which is listed in the references (available at http://www.medievalists.net/files/09012330.pdf). Wissolik argues that the figure is Harold's daughter. The evidence is simply the fact that Harold did have a daughter called Aelfgifu - there is no historical record of her having gone with him to Normandy in 1064. Ceola ( talk) 18:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just removed apparent duplication, only to see it immediately reverted. In "the Plot", the section from the paragraph before "Halley's Comet" contains material which is both out-of-order for the chronology of the plot, and will be covered more in-depth anyway in subsequent paragraphs. Quoted here for reference:
"William, upon hearing this, plans an invasion of England to claim the crown promised him by Edward. William spends a few years building ships for the invading armada. His forces eventually land in England and prepare for battle. Prior to the battle a great feast is held for the forces. The Battle of Hastings takes place, during which Harold is killed. The tapestry depicts various scenes in the battle, including one in which Harold's forces appear to be winning the battle. But eventually, William is victorious and claims the throne intended for him by Edward, and William becomes the King of England."
86.25.122.115 (
talk) 20:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the section containing the Latin text with an English translation out of this article and into Bayeux Tapestry tituli. The section (which I had added myself) was too long in my view.
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Bayeux Tapestry was copied or moved into Bayeux Tapestry tituli with this edit on 09:39, 19 August 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Thincat ( talk) 10:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Following from last entry: Great mistake! Your addition was excellent and much needed in the main article and should remain there in a central position. The Latin text and translation is fundamental to an understanding of the Tapestry, not merely an appendix which can be consulted by interested readers. The current article cannot hope to inform the reader about the Tapestry unless it explains it scene by scene. We are letting down readers by not giving them the full tapestry. Length should not be an issue. It will still be quite a short article compared to some (i.e. King John is 33 pages!). Separating the two also creates the need for a new intro. which causes duplication & eventual divergence which will require later rationalisation. I have accordingly added merge to/from tags to both articles suggesting a re-merger. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 18:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC))
I notice Johnbod has removed the [Category:Anglo-Saxon documents], and I'm just wondering if that's wise. I accept that both the "Anglo-Saxon" and the "document" elements are debatable. However, in my view the BT is undoubtedly a document (albeit in an unusual medium), and I see Johnbod hasn't removed the category from Bayeux Tapestry tituli. "Anglo-Saxon" is more borderline, as the Tapestry is (axiomatically) post-Conquest; but it was made, according to the dominant school of thought, by Anglo-Saxon embroiderers, and the text includes Anglo-Saxon characters and spellings. On balance, I feel that categories are cheap, and that if a subject even arguably falls into one it may as well be included. I didn't originally add the category, incidentally, but felt the point was worth at least a brief discussion. GrindtXX ( talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone have objections to replacing the lede image with something of better quality? The current image is small and looks like it was photographed with an on camera flash at point blank range. I propose replacing it with one of these:
Each of these varies in the color of the background. Perhaps someone who has seen the tapestry in person can comment on which is more color accurate. - Mr X 00:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
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Just added the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnieUa2-22o&t=253s by Lindybeige. It was undone with the caption "random youtube video isn't good for external link" by User:Ealdgyth. Please watch the video first before removing it. It really adds to the article. It is a well researched and entertaining Video explaining the step by step the history of the depicted scenes. You have studied history as you say in your profile. You should know that knowlede mediation is a big issue for our disciplines! Please rethink the edit and maybe watch the video. As long as it dosn't compromise any Wiki guidelines (I am usually editing the german Wiki) we should consider adding it. I'd like to hear your thoughts! Greetings Wikisassonia ( talk) 11:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Btw, * A Guide to the Bayeux Tapestry – Latin-English translation seems to be dead? Wikisassonia ( talk) 14:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence somebody added about the possible loan of the tapestry to the UK which has been reported in the British press today. First of all it doesn't belong in the Recorded history section and secondly it has only been agreed in primciple by President Macron. To quote from an article in the Times today [1] "The Élysée Palace confirmed the loan of the tapestry today, saying that it would probably be sent to Britain for several months after 2020. An aide to Mr Macron said: “This symbolises the strength of our historic relations. Very important restoration work has to be carried out first.” It was also reported today that the tapestry would have to be assessed first to see if it was ok to be transported. It also says in the Times article that it expected to go to the British museum but then goes on to say "Although the museum stopped short of confirming that it had secured the loan, its director gave a statement saying that his museum would welcome it". In the end it probably will happen as it also says in the article "It will be taken to London after restoration and displayed in the capital while the French museum undergoes refurbishment before it reopens in 2023" but until a firm date for an exhibition is agreed then to talk about it in this article is premature. Richerman (talk) 21:44, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
The article treats the origin of the Bayeux Tapestry as a matter of some debate. A speaker on Front Row on January 18 2018 said that it is quite well known that the tapestry was made in Canterbury. Vorbee ( talk) 19:31, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Or is that just news hype nonsense? Yourlocallordandsavior ( talk) 07:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
The end of the second-to-last parapgraph of the "Unsettled Questions" section reads as follows:
"It has been speculated that this scene, occurring after the meeting of Harold and William, is to remind the contemporary viewers of a scandal that occurred between Ælfgifu of Northampton and Emma of Normandy, Cnut's wives, that eventually led to the crowning of Edward the Confessor, child of Cnut and Emma."
Edward wasn't Cnut's child. Am I reading this incorrectly? He was the son of Emma and Aethelred the Unready. 195.99.153.210 ( talk) 15:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I added the "See Also" link, but it was reverted as unrelated. I don't think that's true! There are very few Romanesque tapestries that have survived 900+ years...the Bayeux Tapestry is one, another is the Tapestry of Creation. I know of no others. Seems to me the See Also links (also the link from that article back to here) are entirely justified - historically, from the point of view of ancient tapestries, the rare examples of Romanesque tapestries, etc. Bdushaw ( talk) 15:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
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More info please on how the figure of Harold II is mis-identified. Leo
Help! the Edit Page is broken. User:Renata 24/9/2002
When I try to edit from my home PC, I get an empty box, overlaid with "Warning....no header...." messages. When I try from my work PC, it's okay. It's a mystery to me. User:Renata
Who considers it the precursor of the comic strip?
Here, in France, it's much more know as the "tapisserie de Bayeux" than as the "tapisserie de la reine Mathilde". But my english is to poor for me to modify the article. Alvaro 14:53 8 Jun 2003 (UTC)
At present, the article does not state when the tapestry was actually created. Perhaps some smart person can add that.
Ordinary Person ( talk) 03:48, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
...its serial storytelling is considered an ancestor of the comic strip.
The Bayeux Tapestry is an ancestor of comic strip? Medieval storytelling was highly graphic (in large past as most people could not read) and there is a long tradition of graphic serial story telling that goes back to, well, pre-historic cave paintings. It's unclear what the connection to comic strips and the Bayeux Tapestry is. This was not the first graphic serial story. Stbalbach 22:20, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.189.232.117 ( talk) 04:08, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
Would anyone object (or support) this article being reverted to the pre-June 4th version, before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 ? Stbalbach 04:55, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)
The assertion in the article that, "The main artist must have been a Frenchman," is somewhat dubious. Much work has been done in this field and there is actually significant indication that the Tapestry was the design of an English artist. As well as the skill and renown of English embroiderers at the time, the use of Latin derived from Old English and key details in the depictions suggest an Anglo-Saxon construction that was designed to appease the Norman invaders, while asserting the illegitimacy of their reign to all Englishmen (and any other Germanic people). These include: 1) An apparently apologetic Harold on his return to England (having sworn an oath) and Edward apparently admonishing his earl. This scene is inconsistent with the Norman assertion that Harold was sent to provide surety for William's succession. 2) Harold's apparent heroism in dragging member's of William's army out of the quick-sand near the River Couesnon would appear to have been included to demonstrate Harold's nobility and further emphasise the abuse of William in forcing the earl to swear an oath. This is consistent with Anglo-Saxon legal tradition that rejected sworn oaths made under duress. 3) In the scene depicting Edward's deathbed, Harold and Edward's fingers are touching, following the Anglo-Saxon tradition of a pictorial narrative. This touching of hands was symbolic of a solemn commendation, i.e. Edward was solemnly conferring the throne to Harold. (This scene also confirms the arrangements identified in the Vita Ædwardi, which may well have been written at Canterbury around the same time that the Tapestry was being undertaken. The Tapestry most likely having been produced at St. Augustine's, Canterbury). 4) There are key differences between the events as depicted in the Tapestry and in Norman sources. The Tapestry is, however, consistent with Anglo-Saxon sources such as the Vita Ædwardi and Eadmer.
Given this, does anyone have reasonable objection to a change in the article that identifies the artist as English (or most likely English)? Valiant Son 13:37, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I think it would be kind of dubious to assert one way or the other. I recall at least one place where William's name is (presumably mistakenly) rendered with the French spelling, and I wouldn't think an Englishman would make that mistake. Also, my understanding of the swearing on holy relics was to demonstrate that Harold violated that oath and paid for it with his crown and his life. That might just be the Norman interpretation, of course... but it was supposedly the reason that this tapestry hung in a Norman church for a long time: to teach a moral lesson. Wahkeenah 22:30, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I haven't really suggested an assertion that the artist was English. Instead I have presented a reasoned and substantiated precis of evidence that strongly suggests that he was. (Hence the 'most likely).
There is every reason to presume that an English artist would use a derivation from the French for William's name as this was the name by which William was principally known in England and was that used by him in documents. (The place you are thinking of is in Plate 13 "Here a messenger has come to Duke William" and Plates 15-16 "William, Duke of the Normans" "Here Duke William with Harold"). Also it should be remembered that there have been siginificant 'repairs' to the tapestry and some were much less sympathetic than others. Irrespective of this, the linguistic evidence is greater for an English author and is a point that is accepted by many historians.
The swearing of an oath was spread as part of the Norman propaganda. However, this is not the issue that I was specifically concerned with here. Rather I was discussing the symbolism of the scene and the later scene of Harold's return to King Edward. Whether or not you accept that this was under duress is irrelevant here as we are looking at the artist behind the tapestry and not at the specifics of the succession. The suggestion that it hung as morality lesson is pure conjecture. It is much more probable that it was to legitimise the invasion. William did not receive wholesale approval for his actions. There was concern from many of the neighbouring French dukes about this increased power and the implication that William was prepared to usurp authority. (Indeed the French king was concerned about this). Also let's not forget that William had to do pennance for his actions throught the construction of Battle Abbey. This was all part of his campaign to be seen as a legitimate king. (It doesn't matter whether or not he was. He needed to be Italic textseenItalic text to be.
For a full and well respected account of the symbolism within the tapestry see the following (I only highlighted some key aspects to provide a grounding for my point)
N.P. Brooks and H.E. Walker, 'The authority and interpretation of the Bayeux Tapestry', Italic textAnglo-Norman StudiesItalic text, 1 (1979), pp.1-34 Valiant Son 23:21, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
Based on comments above, I'm taking the bold step of reverting the article back to the version before the mass of new text was added by 67.191.224.15 on June 4th, back to the May 31 2005 version. 67.191.224.15 has not responded either to fix concerns listed above, or to provide more information on sources, and further problems have arisen with NPOV and factual concerns. This is a complicated topic, that has many theories, and only a single POV is being presented in a format that makes it very difficult if not impossible for other editors to edit. In addition much of the material is simply triva that has nothing to do with the tapestry and is not very Wikipedia-like. The current article still needs a lot of work. It would be good to have some structure such as "there are many theories who made it.. one is.." to set the precedent, so we can start listing theories. Stbalbach 07:21, 20 October 2005 (UT
This is absurd. The article did have some NPOV, but with some editing this could have been removed. Instead, you showed up, took a two second look and blew away 5 months of edits. Someone needs to revert this back. -- JDooley 02:23, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
I didnt just show up, see my comments above from June when the mass of new text was first put in. It's unfortanate 5 months have gone by since. In addition to the NPOV and non-Wikipedia like nature, I'm fairly certain the text added by 67.191.224.15 is a copyvio, although I have not found the source yet, it is too professional and polished, and reads like a National Geographic magazine from the 1960s (which is listed as of the sources). Questions about it have gone unanswered from 67.191.224.15. As I said, this is a bold step. Since you dont agree and have reverted it back, I expect you will take responsibility for fixing the problems? I await your reply on how to resolve this before reverting back. Stbalbach 03:04, 21 October 2005 (UTC)
Maybe a tough call. He seems to be paraphrasing much of it, although he is also citing the authors for various segments, on the theory that multiple plagiarism = "research". Some of it's pretty close. I haven't studied it in depth, but one of the first lines that jumped out me was as follows:
Wahkeenah 01:39, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Guys, was just glancing at this article whilst revising for an exam on the Norman Conquest and spotted some huge errors. Much of the text was not a description of what the Tapestry shows, but rather a slightly-Norman biased story of the Conquest itself. I've gone through it now with my copy of the Tapestry in front of me and taken out a lot of stuff, and added some stuff in about where there are controversies, etc. It's by no means perfect now - I'm not used to Wikipedia-ing so I've probably not linked in properly and stuff, and it may not explain everything to someone without basic knowledge of the Norman Conquest, but at least it's no longer totally misleading about what the Tapestry depicts. I'll get back to this after my exam and fill some more stuff in! I also stupidly didn't read the talk page before I edited, so apologies if I've trodden on anyone's feet here. I should also probably get a user account so you can track me easily too... in the meantime here's my IP address! 87.74.9.233 20:42, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
As Malecasta noted above in October, the article still needs a lot of work (the origins part). But at least the nature of the debate is more clearly outlined and not so muddled. We need (a lot) more detail on the specifics on both sides. As the article stands today, based on the material we started with, it leans heavily in the pro-Anglo-Saxon side of things which is probably not good. Stbalbach 07:09, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
The edits by anon user are correct, the article should be written in the past tense, it is either a policy, or at least MoS guidelines. Otherwise it reads like where the article is sourced from: a National Geographic author who spent a few months traveling around England/France and writing a journalistic report. -- Stbalbach 02:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
This article does little more than assert, So-and-so thinks X created the tapestry. Some other people think Y created the tapestry. X is probably right." If it instead presented the case for each side, cited precise attributions, and offered corresponding illustrations to demonstrate the case for each side - then it might have the makings of a featured article. Durova 18:07, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if this is a good or constructive idea (depends on what sources the present article used and a couple other factors)... I admit to being no specialist on the question, and not having much in the way of creditable sources... But I thought it might be clever to check Wiki-French and try to see if that article is better than this one, and if necessary to fish the juicy bits and translate them here. Is this a tolerated procedure? Do you folk think it's a good idea in the first place? In case the motion should be approved, I, as a native French speaker, and having opened my big hole in the first place would volunteer to do it... and a bat bit of work it should be, as the two articles are organized differently, and comparing data will not be that clear cut. -- Svartalf 01:10, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I didn't see anything about references to the tapestry in modern (pop) culture, though I presume there are many. One I came across recently was in a computer game, and I append a screenshot. The section of the tapestry shown here runs from Harold and William approaching Rouen to the departure of William for Mont St. Michel. In between is the famous Aelfgyva and the cleric scene. There is at least another section displayed in the game, featuring the scenes showing the construction of Westminster and the funeral of Edward.
Neale Monks 14:47, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
I recall there was some minor controversey over the tapestry several years ago over what appeared to be a turkey on the border. This was held as proof of pre-coloumbian contact with the americas. I believe it was disproved but is it worth a mention on the article anyway? Amanoman 20:33, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Bayeux tapestry is being made again by YTMND users as they include bayeux tapestry versions of various YTMND fads, from "Nigga stole my bike" to "Yonder moor coveted mine steed", The original "You're the man now dog" to "Thou art the man henseforth dog", or even "What is Love" to "What doth love be"
Post made by flashn00b
Is this why this article is listed under internet memes? Because there's nothing in the article to say why it's a 'net meme as far as I can see. I'm confused! Perhaps I'm missing something but I'm not sure why it is listed in this category. If anyone could clarify this? Thanks Redclaire 17:17, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Actually, SomethingAwful parodied it before YTMND did -- 70.153.238.116 02:10, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
It is indeed an Internet Meme. It should have at least a mention in the article, I think.
RC-960018 (
talk) 06:33, 23 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I wonder what can be said about the Latin text. Maybe there are some clues about who wrote it, to judge by the text itself. Maybe it is possible to comment on its literary quality as well. Finally it would be nice to identify the style of letters and how that fits with pen-written documents of the same age. 207.174.201.18 00:15, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
What literary quality? There are hardly any structured sentences in it at all. Start from here and press the next image buttons. It shows literal translations of the Latin, which is more like annotations than a commentary. Jake95( talk!) 21:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Who/what is "L.Foaly"? It is at the end of one of the sentences, but no where else in the article. Is this a footnote to a source, what source? -- Stbalbach
I changed the link in the first paragraph from Normandy to Basse-Normandie, the actual region Bayeux is in. Jake95( talk!) 21:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Would this suffice as a reference for the New Yorker cover parody: http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/churchill/interactive/_html/wc0220.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.54.82.97 ( talk) 18:05, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone please correct the "earliest reference" as in a 2007 Bayeux Cathedral inventory? 2007 is obviously not the first appearance of the tapestry. I would be interested in knowing when. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.163.7.98 ( talk) 22:27, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
http://www.westga.edu/~handbook/index.php?page=studentactivitiesandstudentorganizations http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/abroad.html http://www.westga.edu/~artdept/agp.html
don't currently have time to add them in but hope someone else can Werecowmoo ( talk) 15:11, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
The word "restoration" does not appear in the article. Has there been any? A repair is mentioned from antiquity. Is there any record or speculation of what repairs have occurred? Tempshill ( talk) 00:48, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
The third paragraph claims "the Latin text contains hints of Anglo Saxon" - this is an ambiguous statement. Does the writer mean that the language is that of the Anglo-Saxons ( Old English)? Or that the font style is reminiscent of Anglo-Saxon texts? Or something else? Perhaps someone with a better knowledge than me of the subject could clarify ~dom Kaos~ ( talk) 16:15, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
I just removed this picture from the lead. Yes it is a nice clear pic.... but it can't rightly be claimed to be the Bayeux tapestry. It is a painted representation of part of the tapestry, not a photgraph of the tapestry itself. That is why the colours are so clear and bright. Amandajm ( talk) 12:15, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Does there exist a scrollable image of the whole tapestry,
There is one at http://www.bayeux-tapestry.org.uk/ Ceola ( talk) 18:09, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
There's a strange paragraph at the end of the "Reliability" section. It's badly written, and anyone who knows exactly what it means should probably rewrite it, or it should be removed. I'll modify it a little, but I'm not certain exactly what it's about, so I will only touch it up superficially. -- PlantPerson ( talk) 00:19, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Okay, the paragraph is now clean grammatically, but an expert should look it over... I don't really trust its accuracy, given the quality of the writing. -- PlantPerson ( talk) 00:26, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Agreed. It really needs to be explained what nude men have to do with opposition to Williams reign and why it would be shown under a scene meant to attack Harold. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.59.37 ( talk) 06:48, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
The Mysteries section notes the clergyman touching the woman's face and the nude men; but the Reliability section claims these mysteries are solved. Could a knowledgeable editor edit appropriately? Comet Tuttle ( talk) 22:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
One of the identifications of the Aelfgifu figure is given in the Wissolik (1979) paper which is listed in the references (available at http://www.medievalists.net/files/09012330.pdf). Wissolik argues that the figure is Harold's daughter. The evidence is simply the fact that Harold did have a daughter called Aelfgifu - there is no historical record of her having gone with him to Normandy in 1064. Ceola ( talk) 18:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)
I've just removed apparent duplication, only to see it immediately reverted. In "the Plot", the section from the paragraph before "Halley's Comet" contains material which is both out-of-order for the chronology of the plot, and will be covered more in-depth anyway in subsequent paragraphs. Quoted here for reference:
"William, upon hearing this, plans an invasion of England to claim the crown promised him by Edward. William spends a few years building ships for the invading armada. His forces eventually land in England and prepare for battle. Prior to the battle a great feast is held for the forces. The Battle of Hastings takes place, during which Harold is killed. The tapestry depicts various scenes in the battle, including one in which Harold's forces appear to be winning the battle. But eventually, William is victorious and claims the throne intended for him by Edward, and William becomes the King of England."
86.25.122.115 (
talk) 20:59, 28 October 2010 (UTC)
I have moved the section containing the Latin text with an English translation out of this article and into Bayeux Tapestry tituli. The section (which I had added myself) was too long in my view.
Text and/or other creative content from this version of Bayeux Tapestry was copied or moved into Bayeux Tapestry tituli with this edit on 09:39, 19 August 2011. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists. |
Thincat ( talk) 10:31, 19 August 2011 (UTC)
Following from last entry: Great mistake! Your addition was excellent and much needed in the main article and should remain there in a central position. The Latin text and translation is fundamental to an understanding of the Tapestry, not merely an appendix which can be consulted by interested readers. The current article cannot hope to inform the reader about the Tapestry unless it explains it scene by scene. We are letting down readers by not giving them the full tapestry. Length should not be an issue. It will still be quite a short article compared to some (i.e. King John is 33 pages!). Separating the two also creates the need for a new intro. which causes duplication & eventual divergence which will require later rationalisation. I have accordingly added merge to/from tags to both articles suggesting a re-merger. ( Lobsterthermidor ( talk) 18:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC))
I notice Johnbod has removed the [Category:Anglo-Saxon documents], and I'm just wondering if that's wise. I accept that both the "Anglo-Saxon" and the "document" elements are debatable. However, in my view the BT is undoubtedly a document (albeit in an unusual medium), and I see Johnbod hasn't removed the category from Bayeux Tapestry tituli. "Anglo-Saxon" is more borderline, as the Tapestry is (axiomatically) post-Conquest; but it was made, according to the dominant school of thought, by Anglo-Saxon embroiderers, and the text includes Anglo-Saxon characters and spellings. On balance, I feel that categories are cheap, and that if a subject even arguably falls into one it may as well be included. I didn't originally add the category, incidentally, but felt the point was worth at least a brief discussion. GrindtXX ( talk) 18:21, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
Does anyone have objections to replacing the lede image with something of better quality? The current image is small and looks like it was photographed with an on camera flash at point blank range. I propose replacing it with one of these:
Each of these varies in the color of the background. Perhaps someone who has seen the tapestry in person can comment on which is more color accurate. - Mr X 00:35, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
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Just added the video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnieUa2-22o&t=253s by Lindybeige. It was undone with the caption "random youtube video isn't good for external link" by User:Ealdgyth. Please watch the video first before removing it. It really adds to the article. It is a well researched and entertaining Video explaining the step by step the history of the depicted scenes. You have studied history as you say in your profile. You should know that knowlede mediation is a big issue for our disciplines! Please rethink the edit and maybe watch the video. As long as it dosn't compromise any Wiki guidelines (I am usually editing the german Wiki) we should consider adding it. I'd like to hear your thoughts! Greetings Wikisassonia ( talk) 11:57, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Btw, * A Guide to the Bayeux Tapestry – Latin-English translation seems to be dead? Wikisassonia ( talk) 14:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
I've removed the sentence somebody added about the possible loan of the tapestry to the UK which has been reported in the British press today. First of all it doesn't belong in the Recorded history section and secondly it has only been agreed in primciple by President Macron. To quote from an article in the Times today [1] "The Élysée Palace confirmed the loan of the tapestry today, saying that it would probably be sent to Britain for several months after 2020. An aide to Mr Macron said: “This symbolises the strength of our historic relations. Very important restoration work has to be carried out first.” It was also reported today that the tapestry would have to be assessed first to see if it was ok to be transported. It also says in the Times article that it expected to go to the British museum but then goes on to say "Although the museum stopped short of confirming that it had secured the loan, its director gave a statement saying that his museum would welcome it". In the end it probably will happen as it also says in the article "It will be taken to London after restoration and displayed in the capital while the French museum undergoes refurbishment before it reopens in 2023" but until a firm date for an exhibition is agreed then to talk about it in this article is premature. Richerman (talk) 21:44, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
The article treats the origin of the Bayeux Tapestry as a matter of some debate. A speaker on Front Row on January 18 2018 said that it is quite well known that the tapestry was made in Canterbury. Vorbee ( talk) 19:31, 18 January 2018 (UTC)
Or is that just news hype nonsense? Yourlocallordandsavior ( talk) 07:31, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
The end of the second-to-last parapgraph of the "Unsettled Questions" section reads as follows:
"It has been speculated that this scene, occurring after the meeting of Harold and William, is to remind the contemporary viewers of a scandal that occurred between Ælfgifu of Northampton and Emma of Normandy, Cnut's wives, that eventually led to the crowning of Edward the Confessor, child of Cnut and Emma."
Edward wasn't Cnut's child. Am I reading this incorrectly? He was the son of Emma and Aethelred the Unready. 195.99.153.210 ( talk) 15:42, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I added the "See Also" link, but it was reverted as unrelated. I don't think that's true! There are very few Romanesque tapestries that have survived 900+ years...the Bayeux Tapestry is one, another is the Tapestry of Creation. I know of no others. Seems to me the See Also links (also the link from that article back to here) are entirely justified - historically, from the point of view of ancient tapestries, the rare examples of Romanesque tapestries, etc. Bdushaw ( talk) 15:13, 15 March 2024 (UTC)