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(part one of the Japanese plan having been successful just six months earlier at Pearl Harbor)
This is misleading, as it makes Midway seem like part of a one-two punch, along with Pearl Harbor. The reality is, the Japanese failed to destroy the American carrier fleet at Pearl Harbor (and more generally, to neutralize American naval power in the Pacific), and because of this failure they had to come back and try again.
The attack on Midway was part one of a much larger plan. Part two was the invasion and conquest of Hawaii. The Japanese carriers were sailing ahead of troop transports filled with (I believe) 100,000 Japanese troops. They were all expecting to be landing on Hawaii very soon, once the US carriers were out of the way and the islands defenceless. This is all in Walter Lord's masterful book Incredible Victory, but it is surprisingly absent in almost every account of the Battle of Midway you will see (including ours - I'd do something about this but I don't have handy Lord's book or anything equivalent to reference). -- user:TimShell - 10 Aug 2004
It is today's feature artcle and is being constantly vandalised. Could we get a lock please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.246.196 ( talk • contribs)
See Talk:Battle of Midway#Page has been vandalised below. DrKiernan 11:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Midway was the first purely carrier battle.
Taranto was a raid on a port from a carrier. This was nothing new. The RNAS carried out raids from carriers as far back as WW1. The first carrier vs carrier battle was indeed the Battle of the Coral Sea, as Raul suggests. This was before Midway. Tannin 10:37, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Mention is made in the article of the possibility of the United States suing for peace in the event of the destruction of the American pacific fleet and the occupation of Hawaii. This is exceedingly unlikely due to a large number of factors. First the American people were incensed by the attacks on Pearl Harbor and wouldnt have acquiesed to capitulation. More importantly the United States had enormously greater military potential than Japan. It could have built a continental land Army in the tens of millions which would have made any invasion by Japan impossible. Even discounting its overwhelming superiority as a land power in North America, the US could have protected its west coast from attack through the use of long range air power until such time as naval forces were constructed in California or elsewhere with which the Japanese Navy could not hope to cope. Any history of WW2 in the pacific should begin and end with the question of why Japan attacked a power many times its size. Japan of the 1930-40s was a mostly agrarian power and, although possessed of reasonably high quality military industries, was simply not capable of engineering a victory over the fairly mature industrial economy of the United States.
Will McElgin 9/14/04
I have changed the discussion of Japanese prospects for achieving their strategic objectives in the Pacific back to what it was when I last edited it on 9/14/04. There is certainly some significant controversy about Japanese objectives but there is very little doubt about their prospects for victory. The Japanese attack on the US was a huge strategic blunder (see my comments above) which made a catastrophe for Japan inevitable unless Germany could quickly secure a defeat of both Russia and Britain. To suggest that the US would have sued for peace, given its overwhelming industrial superiority and its immense anger and disdain toward Japan, due to an attack that was by no means crippling of American strategic potential is just a huge distortion. It would have run totally counter to American self conceptions and centuries of behavior of other nations in similar situations. It was the Japanese attack itself that was the anomaly; a weaker power attacking a clearly stronger one is quite rare in history. I wont persist in this effort if people insist upon reinserting this distortion but at least I have tried to correct it twice.
Will McElgin 10/02/04
Let me just say that the IJN wasn't really calling the shots in 1941. *They* knew if things went well, which they were duty-bound to effect, they could only hold off the USN for a year or three, but the army was full of piss and vinegar and knew it could defeat any force (other than the Russians perhaps) that could ship itself into the theatre. And to a large extent that was true. The IJA underestimated the logistical difficulties of empire and got bloodied in the various island fights, but these were largely IJN shows... the IJA's focus was still on China and the newly-won southern resource areas. In 1944 and 1945 the introduction of the B-29 into the theatre and the change of tactics to firebombing Japanese cities changed the rules on the IJA and their plans for home defense became rather inoperative.
There is an error in the third paragraph of the section entitled "Before the Battle". In this paragraph, it states that Yamomoto was on board the Yamata in the southern Aleutians. This last bit is clearly in error, because the Yamata and the rest of the main battle group with Yamomoto was located several hundred miles to the west of Midway. This reference to the southern Aleutians should be corrected.
Yamato.--
131.238.92.62 09:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a small section discussing Robert D. Ballard's effort to locate the sunken ships from the Battle of Midway.
I removed this paragraph:
This seems rather biased to me. (1) The Japanese were in fact able to change their plans during the battle (preparing to make second strike on Midway, for example). (2) The on-the-scene command style almost led to disaster for the Americans at Leyte Gulf. (3) The Japanese counterpart to Fletcher and Spruance was surely Nagumo (present at the battle), not Yamamoto. Please comment. Gdr 12:21, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
Quoted from article: Having scored a decisive victory, American forces retired. The loss of four carriers stopped the expansion of the Japanese Empire in the Pacific, and put Japan on the defensive. It had been six months to the day since the attack on Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto had predicted to his superiors that Japan would prevail for only six months to a year against the United States, after which American resources would begin to overwhelm the Japanese Navy. He had been exactly correct. This was good.
I'm removing the comment emphasised. This is as non-neutral as it gets. nihil 20:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new section on Midways's overall impact. Sparten
This is not original reserch. This is based on the analysis placed on the Battle by Theodore F Cook Jr, which he wrote for the book "What if". In it he wrote about a Japanese Victory at Midway and its results on the war. He wrote this as an analysis of what a victory would have ment acedemically (not a counter-factual history as written by some authors). These are his conclusions. I have read that book and the particular article a dozen times and can almost quote it from memory. I had misplaced the original, so could not provide a reference, but have since gone and bought a new one. I have added the reference. ISBN 0330487248,plz check this on Amazon, and on the "further reading" section
I've added a sentence to the effect that a defeat at Midway might have put so much political presssure on FDR that the "Germany First" priority might've been challenged. -- Andersonblog 03:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could they have mounted a successful assault against the Hawaiian Islands? It took them four months to beat a polygot American infantry division in the Phillipenes, without adequate supply.
I edited the final paragraphs, because I don't feel comfortable about the inclusion of long term strategic hypotheticals. They are also factually inaccurate, since the IJA had no plans to invade Hawaii should the Midway operation had succeeded; also, the US Navy had two additional carriers in the Pacific, not one, and another one operating in the Atlantic--the USS Ranger--which would have certainly been transferred to the pacific had the Americans lost catastrophically at Midway.
Please read the book I reffered to. The Japanese did have plans to invade Hawaii, if they won Midway. Yamamoto's aide was the man responsible for planning. In anycase the Americans would have given up Hawaii as a bad job, at least for the time being. USS Ranger was too small. Yamamoto had planned that to win the war, they would have to capture Hawaii and destroy Panama.
Finally
Remember the Part about "No original research?."
I am trying to keep this discussion real, not an exercise in counterfact which ignores the logistical difficulties the Japanese army and Navy suffered under.
I recommend the book "Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan" by Mitsuo Fuchida & Masatake Okumiya. It is an in-depth discussion of the battle, its plans and objectives by two Japanese naval aviators who were privy to the plans and personalities involved. They mention nothing about a hawaiian invasion.
I also recommend that you look at the US Army order of battle for the hawaiian islands in August, 1942.
I made a pass through the Battle section, fixing various inaccuracies. This could still use some more editing; I have a lot more respect for historical writers now!
I also edited out the conclusions about Hawaii being abandoned, the Panama canal being closed, the Manhattan project being shelved, and the Pacific campaign being stopped all due to the hypothetical Japanese victory... Sheer idiocy. Japan didn't have the oil or fleet oilers to do much of anything, OK? Japan trying to take and hold Hawaii (with what army???) would have ended the war quicker, given the relative logistics advantages the US enjoyed there.
From the "orphaned" references and purple prose, and from the way that sections have been placed without regard to existing text, it would seem that much of this article has been lifted from other sources without attribution. I agree with the previous poster that it needs work, which I've done; but more is needed. Others, please lend a hand. This should be just as well done as the
Pearl Harbor article.
—
J M Rice 06:12, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed the line about Yamamoto's attack plan being bold and ingenious. He divided his forces in a failed diversionary attempt, and thus lost the battle. It couldn't have been that ingenious.
The division of forces was a violation of one of the basic principles of war, mass.-- 131.238.92.62 09:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well when you had already lost superiority what can you do except of being "creative" ? Ericd 20:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the intel section. Jasper's plan didn't call for a message en clair (tho it's often rendered as such) but in a compromised cypher (probably 1 captured at Wake). Trekphiler 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me the following needs rewriting:
It smacks of POV, contains the questionable claim Japan assumed 2 carriers & the implication Yamamoto's surface forces made any difference, while overlooking the flawed dispositions (by now a familiar refrain). "One has to wonder" is an inappropriate tone. And it misses a fundamental fact of inadequate IJN recon of Midway before Nagumo's first wave launched, & the role of Midway's PBYs. Something about navy doctrine should probably be said, too; Yamamoto's plan of attack at Midway was in keeping with that of every major navy at the time (& at odds with his myth as the "brilliant carrier pioneer"), leading with the carriers (scouts), holding his heavies back for the "decisive battle". Only naval war had changed, & it was carriers that were decisive, now.
Also, something should be said to Yorktown; a "virtual wreck" she wasn't, tho often believed to be. In fact, her damage was not so severe as that, tho it was serious; her hull was mainly intact, & they got her flight deck & lifts working, which was what mattered. Trekphiler 13:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted this:
It smacks of POV, & its tone is inappropriate for an encyclopedia.
I also deleted this:
While interesting, it is speculation, which has no place in an encyclopedia. It is nothing like a settled issue, even amongst those who've studied it (& I've seen extensive exchanges in newsgroups on it, not even counting professional historiography). Sounds like the writer's on a soapbox. Trekphiler 14:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I rewrote this:
Fletcher was still senior officer; credit was still his. Afterward, when described as "victor at Midway", Spruance by tradition (& to his eternal credit) denied it, granting the honor to Fletcher. Trekphiler 14:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It needs an intelligent re-write. Spruance won the battle despite Fletcher's lack of coherent effort. Good peace admiral, terrible war admiral.-- 131.238.92.62 09:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a new book that's just come out called " Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" that basically says we've got the history of it all wrong: The US did not triumph against overwhelming odds, the Aleutians Operation was not a diversion, the Japanese airplanes were not sitting on deck loaded with fuel and bombs, and Japan's aviators were not wiped out during the battle. Apologies if this sounds like a teaser or like spam, but I got the book for Christmas and it appears to be very-well researched (It focuses more on Japanese carrier doctrine and flight logs than on memoirs to reach its conclusions). I'd put more down but I've got several projects going already, but I thought you all should know. Palm_Dogg 01:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The strength field in the infobox should probably list the number of planes deployed by both sides. Fornadan (t) 14:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm likely to make some corrections to the main page based on Tony Tully and my research for "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway." I'll try not to be too heavy-handed or oaf-like! ;-) -jon parshall-
Hey Dogg, well I was heavier handed than I intended, but that's how it went. Thanks for the kind comments on the book. I'd like to offer to you, and anyone with questions/comments about the edits I made, to feel free to contact me directly at jonp@combinedfleet.com. As for DC, yeah, that's likely--dunno when, though. Tony and I just spoke last week at the Pritzker Military History Library (www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org), and you can view the webcast of the talk from their site if you get yourself a login. Just an FYI.
2.15.2006 I updated the air strength information with new figuress from Shattered Sword. It may be too much detail; I dunno. I don't want to do an actual OB here, but I also wanted to be thorough with the aircraft types. I won't be heartbroken if someone decides to condense what I've done.
Speaking of OBs, someone (probably not me) is going to need to retrofit the OB inforamtion in Shattered Sword into the Wikipedia "Midway Order of Battle" page at some point. We made *many* corrections to the Japanese OB for the book that supersede the older OBs found in books like Fuchida's or Prange's. But I just don't have the gumption to tackle that at the moment--typesetting the OB in "Shattered Sword" was the nearest thing to the Chinese water torture that I've ever had to endure.
It is copyright, and I had to give up a couple of body parts to get ahold of it, unfortunately. I don't want to burn bridges in Japan, as it was very difficult (as in, multiple bottles of Maalox, and not a few stiff shots of gin)(not to mention probably the need for therapy) to get photo perms outta Japan. So as much as I'd like to, I'm gonna pass. It is a cool picture, though. Cheers, JP
Meanwhile, as a result of their participation in the Battle of the Coral Sea, the Japanese aircraft carrier Zuikaku was in port in Kure (near Hiroshima), waiting for an air group to be brought to her to replace her destroyed planes, while the heavily damaged Shōkaku wagroup, the Japanese made no serious attempt to get her into the forthcoming battle
2.24.2006 I have reverted to an earlier version of my description of the aviator losses. The notion that Midway's aviator losses somehow represented a "year's worth" of "pilots" for the Japanese is utterly fallacious. Now, it *is* true that pre-war Japanese pilot training programs had only cranked out a few hundred *pilots* (as distinct from "aviators", which are pilots, navigator/observer, and any other aircrew), but even by the time of Midway that picture was changing radically. The Japanese had already instituted the "ko" and "otsu" supplemental training classes for high school students, and were gearing up their mainline programs as well. Remember, Japan lost *50,000* aircraft during the course of the war, the majority of which were manned at the time of their loss. Granted, the late-war pilots weren't very good, but the point is that the Japanese were eventually able to address their pilot production issues, and actually cranked out a lot of pilots (not to mention aviators in general). That process was already underway by the time of Midway. Thus, applying a pre-war statistic for *pilot* losses to the *aviator* losses at Midway is misleading in two different dimensions, and must be corrected.
-jon parshall-
2.25.2006 Oh, I knew that going in, of course. ;-) You can't change the mythology of a battle this important overnight. But I'm in a unique position. Since I've literally re-written the book on this particular battle, I figure I ought to be able to argue my points fairly effectively. But I know, too, that people don't necessarily read the Discussion before they go edit. They just edit, and a lot of them are going to edit on the basis of the conventional wisdom, because that's all they've read (so far). So I knew that the nature of the medium meant that this would be a slow, iterative process. That's cool. I'm good with it.
-jon parshall-
3.10.2006 I added the passage in question. High school students may have made good losses in terms of numbers (look at the Battle of the Philipine Sea; no shortage of Japanese aircraft) but they could never make up for the loss of quality. The pre-war IJN chose a strategy of quality over quantity: a small pool of exceptional pilots and air crew. The loss of so many in one day was a much greater blow than you are prepared to give credit for. Pilots and aircrew who had taken a full year to train, were seasoned combat veterans and represented the elite of the navy, were gone. As you point out, in the battles for Guadalcanal, the remaining pool of pre-war pilots were ground down in a war of attrition. Your book makes the point that the Japanese training programs, although able to produce sufficient quanitity, were never able to produce good quality. That was my point, and I believe it still holds true. I've rewritten and reinserted that paragraph and trust that it has been made more clear.
-Michael Lyle-
3.15.2006 Nice rewrite, Michael; I do think that's clearer. Thanks very much for putting up with my nitpickiness.
-jon parshall-
The Plan
"As was typical of many Japanese naval plans during the Second World War, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's Yamamoto was later released from the Japenese Army for beingcaught in the middle of the night performing inappropriate acts on a sleeping man battle plan was complicated and intricate."
Just thought you'd want to know.
64.121.192.62 22:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
All the work that's been done on this article in the last few months appears, IMO, to have it worthy of nomination as a featured article (FA). However, one issue that I think would inhibit its acceptance as an FA is the lack of citations in the body of the text. Although numerous quality references are listed at the end of the entry, they aren't cited or specifically referenced throughout the article. If someone who has worked heavily on the article would be willing to go through and add the specific references, I would then hope that the article would be nominated and accepted for FA status. Cla68 12:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
+++
If I have the cycles, I will do that. Certainly, citation shouldn't be a problem--Shattered Sword had 1,318 endnotes (but who's counting?) and I should be able to bring appropriate citation to bear. I just didn't really know how far people wanted to go on that--too many endnotes may be seen as tedious.
-jon parshall-
+++
All right, I added some citation (May 25, 2006). There's too much of Shattered Sword, and not enough of prior sources. But then again, dang it all, when it comes to the Japanese side of things, and some of the more recent research on the battle, our book is pretty much it. I could go back and fill some more in (frankly, you could do it simply by reading through the citations we give (all 1,318 of 'em), to trace back to the original primary sources, but that would take a while. And I have my daughter's room to sheetrock. ;-)
Cheers,
-jon parshall-
P.S. Added some more on May 26, and fleshed it out a bit.
I changed the main article to explicitly note that Capt. Richard Fleming, although the recipient of the Medal of Honor, did not in fact hit Mikuma, either with his bomb or his aircraft. That's a common myth of the battle, although interestingly contemporary Marine Corps reports make it clear that Fleming went down off Mikuma's fantail by a good distance. However, the famous photos of Mikuma taken near her sinking seem to show some sort of wreckage on the top of Turret #4, and this has commonly been described as wreckage from Fleming's plane--I remember seeing that very citation in one of the American Heritage books as a child in the early 1970s. However, this wreckage is, in fact, the remains of Mikuma's mainmast and aft superstructure, as well as torn up lagging sheeting on the roof of the turret. Finally, of course, the Japanese records make absolutely no mention of having been struck by an American aircraft, and all things being equal they must of course be given greater weight of consideration over American aviator accounts--it was, after all, *their* ship, and the conditions of Mikuma's damage are *very* well documented by the Japanese.
-jon parshall-
I've removed it until you can provide a citation.
Removed Text: Although contemporary research has revealed that neither Fleming's bomb nor his aircraft actually struck the ship itself.
68.97.2.180 18:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted a recent change edit that called Midway the largest naval battle of World War II, because that honor belongs to the Battle of Leyte gulf.
-jon parshall-
John Ford directed the film he didn't shot footage of the battle himself. I've just verified from my mp4 copy of the movie. "The following authentic scene were made by U.S. Navy photographers.". Please notice that the film also include some fictional scenes but the US navy didn't care about this at that time. Ericd 17:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"some fictional scenes" well I first wrote this from memory. But soon after I spent some time to verify. Well not much but they're there. Probably less than 10 seconds in an 18 minutes movie. Ericd 18:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a reason why Image:VT-6TBDs.jpg should not be cropped? savidan (talk) (e@) 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
(Tried)to highlight questionable areas Jonathan smith 112281 00:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In the paragraph about how Midway was confirmed to be the identity of objective "AF", Cdr Rochefort is described as having the idea to get the IJN to confirm this themselves by the intrigue of the supposed drinking water shortage on Midway. The paragraph concludes with the following: "Rochefort died in 1976; in 1985 he was posthumously awarded the Distinguished Service Medal (United States) and later in 1986 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom." As written, this sentence is off-topic for the paragraph and sounds more like a biographical note on Rochefort. It should either be removed or re-worded to more clearly point back to Rochefort's intelligence coup. I have done the latter. Comments? Mike 15:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"Likewise, it is arguable that reallocation of air and naval resources might have delayed amphibious operations in North Africa, the Mediterranean, and perhaps at Normandy."
I have a small issue with this sentence - as far as I'm aware, the amphibious operations in the Med were limited by the availability of transport shipping, especially landing craft and would therefore have been largely unaffected by any US carrier losses at Midway. One could argue that a US deafeat at Midway would have put the Allies on the strategic defensive in the Pacific, which would have released shipping for use in the Med and in fact brought operations in this theatre [B]forward[/B] and not delayed them. Any thoughts? Rubisco 14:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
This line seems unrealistic. If the U.S. had lost all three carriers at Midway, they could not have transferred any significant units to bolster their defenses. Wasp was transferred to the Pacific right after the battle, and she and Saratoga would probably have been expected to fight a static defense until more carriers could be made available. It's possible that in such desperate circumstances the Ranger might have been deployed to the Pacific as well, but it seems unlikely since she rolled too much in rough seas and had weak defensive armor. The U.S. might have been forced to write off the New Hebrides and even Hawaii and relocate the fleet to the West Coast. Since carriers were the primary instrument of battle in the theater, no ammount of shipping transfers would have alieviated the situation. Dallan007 20:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This may have been corrected by other scholars, but I thought "Miracle at Midway" and other books stated that Sōryū was sunk by Yorktown's squadron and Akagi and Kaga were sunk by Enterprise. I understand the issue may be in doubt, but has evidence shown that the current article (Kaga sunk by Yorktown, Sōryū and Akagi by Enterprise) the accepted version? 75.25.65.83 04:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Dallan007
I don't see much mention of the USMC's part in the battle. Major Lofton Henderson (for whom Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was named) led a mixed squadron of SBD Dauntlesses and SB2U Vindicators against the Japanese fleet. See the article on the Midway order of battle. 198.49.81.33 14:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Corrected number of hits on Akagi from 2 and a near miss to 1 and a near miss. Strangely Shattered Sword is cited, which is my source as well, and clearly says that there was only one direct hit, plus a very near miss that caused rudder damage. -- Shyland 22:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Neither of the authors are professional historians. They go too far in trying to break the battle down into a minute by minute explication of 'what really happened.' Just because a record or note says something happened at 1057 doesn't mean it did for certain. In a courtroom eyewitness testimony usually trumps written records. And while they have much evidence (not to mention cool graphics) to support their theories and suppositions, that does not automatically make them all true. Especially if it requires discounting much competent eyewitness testimony.
They offer good arguments for why it is unlikely that Akagi was hit by more than one bomb. On the other hand, they offer that a 'geyser' of water pushed up the steel framework and wood of isthe Akagi's aft flight deck. Is this plausible? Maybe, maybe not. Interestingly, one key piece of evidence cited to 'prove' the aft bomb 'plunged' into the water is from the recollections of someone who WAS FOCUSED ON SOMETHING ELSE, namely, the Kaga attack. The witness was filming the Kaga attack so it seems unlikely that he was also hanging out over cothe side of the Akagi to see the bomb 'plunge' into the water.
Parshall and Tully also state that the American and Japanese (like Fuchida, who was very ill by the way) who say the Akagi's deck was full of ready aircraft are mistaken, or, worse still, lying. And while Fuchida himself may have had post-war reasons to exaggerate, not everyone else did. It is an interesting question. The 'Shattered Sword' authors appear to discount the possibility that perhaps a part of the strike force WAS in place on the deck when Richard Best & company struck. They seem to suggest that AT MOST there were some CAP Zeros on deck and no other aircraft. This is not settled, and most of the eyewitnesses are no longer around to rebut this conclusion. I would think that a NPOV would take into account ALL the sources and conclude that there may have been as many as 1/3 of the strike force on deck, or perhaps far fewer.
My point is that I think it is a mistake to simply plug in everything from this excellent work and summarily overwrite five or six decades of scholarship, not to mention eyewitness testimony. Don't get me wrong, I wrote a positive review of this work on Amazon and have recommended it to many colleagues, especially the ones to whom I already recommended the Fuchida book. Markm62 15:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently the "Impact" section states, "worst case", that if they had won Midway, the Japanese could have invaded Australia and Hawaii, "knocking the U.S. out of the Pacific." Maybe they could have established a foothold somewhere on Australia's north coast, but Hawaii was totally beyond their military and logistic capabilities from all that I have read. It needs changing. -- Shyland 23:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I commented on this under "Impact," but whether the Japanese could've really attacked/invaded Hawaii is one thing; the political impact in the U.S. would've been something else, not based on cold calculations about what the Japanese were really capable of. "Germany First" might have become much more difficult to sustain in the face of a Japanese victory, particularly if they'd sunk all our participating carriers rather than vice-versa. -- Andersonblog 03:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Had the Japanese captured Midway, the northeastern Pacific Rim would have been essentially defenseless. Success also would have removed the last capital ships in the U.S. Pacific Fleet, insuring Japanese naval supremacy in the Pacific until perhaps late 1943." I think this statement is a little over-reaching. Even if the Japanese had taken Midway, they still wouldn't have taken out Hawaii or the US fleet.-- 205.157.110.11 16:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Article says: "Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard worked around the clock to patch up the carrier. Though several months of repairs was estimated for the Yorktown, 72 hours at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard was enough to restore it to a battle-worthy..." Someone who knows more about this than I and/or has access to the cited book should fix or clarify this apparent contradiction. Thanks. ColinClark 00:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
in this article, what is standard of data and Time? US time or Japan time? -- Rheo1905 10:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
What's this nonsense about a loss at Midway removing the last capital ships from the US OOB? There was still the Saratoga and the Wasp--and assuming their subsequent easy loss is a pointless exercise in counterfact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steve Dallas ( talk • contribs) 08:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
Added another line to make the Discoveries heading appear underneath the Mikuma image rather than next to it. Probably doesn't even need to be entered here, but I'm bored. JeffKo427 10:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Currently: Kaga, with Akagi, forming Division 1; Hiryū and Sōryū, as the 2nd Division. This isn't an area I know anytyhing about, but should the text not be parallel? "Division 1... Division 2," "first division...second division," or "1st Division...2nd Division," whichever conforms to Japanese practice. — OtherDave 14:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The article says, "in the hands of both Nagumo and Yamamoto prior to the battle." This is far from certain. In Yamamoto's, yes; it seems Nagumo (in time-honored military tradition) didn't get the word from Tokyo, & Yamamoto, to conceal the fact Yamato was at sea, didn't tell him... Trekphiler 04:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The article says,
"Nagumo's window of decision" & his "fateful decision" were irrelevant; Spruance had begun launching at 07.00, & his birds would hit Nagumo before Nagumo's hit him. The outcome was already decided. The problem is, I can't find a historiographer who expressly says so... Trekphiler 05:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It also says
The first message from Scout 4 was at 0720, with an amplification at 0740; see Willmott, Barrier, & Fuchida & Okumiya. Trekphiler 10:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The article says,
I don't see the connection. "Allied supply lines to the Indian Ocean" were little threatened by the Japanese, so its effect on the Suez or Africa is trivial. I'm less than completely convinced the attrition at Guadalcanal made much difference, either, considering U.S. submarines had brought the Japanese economy more or less to a halt by January 1945. See Blair, Silent Victory. I'd say this needs a rewrite. Trekphiler 05:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The article notes "several new squadrons (drawn from carrier Saratoga". The Japanese didn't do this for
Shōkaku, intact after
Coral Sea; mention it? I've never seen a source specifically say they didn't, but no source I've seen says they did, & there were air groups available...
Trekphiler 01:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the TBDs on the Hornet, there was a detachment on Midway Island which flew the TBF Avenger. They didn't have much better luck, I think 5 of 6 aircraft were lost. The surviving Avenger was damaged, but made it back to Midway: Here are some photos from www.history.navy.mil.
I removed the words "sole survivor of VT-8" from the image of George Gay, because a couple of VT-8 aircrew also survived. He ws the sole survivor of VT-8s TBD aircrew though. Anynobody 03:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote
based on Willmott & on Fuchida & Okumiya. As noted above, "the fateful decision" wasn't; it was out of his hands when Strawberry 5 spotted him. Trekphiler 02:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph there is too much pointless information that does not pertain to the article at all. I suggest major revisions of that portion are done. Designdroide 23:09 Mountian Tine
in the cryptology section, what does it mean by the cryptoanalysts were "blacked out"? 71.161.41.63 22:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The discovery section (repeated below) has been vandalised - how can it be rolled back to its non juevinille state?
[edit] Discovery ===U.S. vessel was as big as my giant dingaling depth of the ocean in the area of the battle (more than 17,000 feet/5200 m), researching the battlefield has presented extraordinary difficulties. However, on May 19, 1998, Robert Ballard and a team of masterbaters and ball suckers (including Japanese participants) located and photographed Yorktown. The ship was remarkably intact for a vessel that sank in 1942; much of the original equipment, and even the original paint scheme were still visible.
'The battle was an American victory widely regarded as the most important naval engagement of World War II.'
Let the facts of the article speak for themself rather than peacocking it up with unsourced statements. Narson 11:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
"Despite the intrinsic and artificial limitations to the usefulness of Allied access to the enemies secret traffic, both Ultra and the American 'Magic' organizations were undoubtedly responsible for major, even crucial, strategic success in the Second World War. The first and most important was the victory ad Midway, where knowledge of the Japanese intentions allowed the Americans to position their inferior fleet of carriers in such a way as to destroy the much larger enemy force. Midway, the most important naval battle of the Second World War, reversed the tide of the advantage in the Pacific and laid the basis fore America's eventual triumph" -- John Keegan, The Second World War (1989), pg 501. Raul654 00:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph frankly seems almost apologetic for the Japanese. That the captured American flyers were murdered is fairly well documented, by Prange and others.
128.165.87.144 22:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The page for William Satterlee Pye states that Admiral Pye ordered seven battleships sortied from San Fran to Midway, but they are not mentioned here. Does anyone have any information on this? -- Daysleeper47 16:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The information on that page is incorrect. Pye order Task Force One, comprised of six battleships, to sortie from San Francisco and patrol the California coast during the Midway operation. There was still a concern that either Hawaii or California might be the actual target. Dallan007 19:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm rather surprised that this article doesn't even contain a cursory reference to American cryptanalysis. It's surely not controversial to assert that breaking the JN-25 naval code was a major factor in the American victory, is it? Shouldn't there be at least a few links, if not a paragraph in the before-the-battle section? NewEnglandYankee 19:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised that an interesting story about the codebreaking was not included. According to several sources, the American codebreakers had decoded messages that Japan was about to attack an island with the code word "AF". They were pretty sure that "AF" meant Midway, but because of the state of the US navy they had to make certain. To do this, an officer was sent to Midway with verbal orders that the Commandant should send a message {in a code that they knew the Japanese had broken} to the effect that Midway's water distillation plant had broken down. Three days later the codebreakers intercepted a message from the Japanese at Kawajalein Atoll that "AF" was short of water, and this enabled Nimitz to commit his forces to the plan. User: Plerdsus 20:03 7 June 2007
what does "Spotting" in the sentence "Spotting his flight decks and launching aircraft would require at least 30–45 minutes to accomplish." mean?
Not challenging, but would like to know why the romance in the movie would/should be considered a "preposterous romance". Thx.
Excellent article. Perhaps this is a nit, but did the Japanese call their attack against the Aleutians "Operation AL"? "Operation MI" is a little more believable, but were the Japanese war plans drafted in English? How would you spell "AL" in kana? 65.114.23.6 19:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this
and this
and this
as irrelevant to Midway; put it in Pacific War, if you think it's of value. I also deleted this
and this
as speculation. It's equally probable it would have shifted forces out of the SWPA, away from MacArthur, as FDR realized he didn't have the luxury of a "dual road" strategy; moving Oz submarines to Pearl would have significantly shortened the war, as would the preclusion of MacArthur's obsessive "return" to the Philippines. It would also have freed up landing craft, which would have made it possible to execute ANVIL and NEPTUNE similtaneously, as originally intended, which would (probably) have shortened the war. It might also have freed up Oz & AUS troops, making it more likely (if not extremely so) NEPTUNE might go off in 1943, instead; now, it's speculation about whether the Italian campaign would have happened, & whether a "disaster" at Midway would've given FDR leverage with Winston to call off Italy: that would indubitably have shortened the war. The bigger question is, would Japan have been defeated without use of the Bomb; it it wasn't, it's been suggested there might have been a major nuclear war, as the Soviets (or Stalin) doubt the West's willingness to actually use it. (I have a suspicion this was Spinrad's vision in Iron Dream.) And there's enormous flexibility in planning, economic & military; loss of two carriers, against the number actually built, was trivial. (The Essexes wouldn't arrive until 1943 in any case, but it might have put pressure on the earlier development of bulk carrier MAC-conversions, & on the priority for LCs; realizing carriers could not be built faster without significant diversion, LCs might have ended up with higher priority than historically, with results like above, plus the ability to land more men at ANVIL and NEPTUNE: a French corps, say...?) Regardless, this is no place for speculation; want to speculate, write a novel. (Don't bet on FDR replacing Nimitz; he wasn't near as quick to fire people as Winnie was.) Trekphiler 19:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Another 40 minutes elapsed before Tone's scout finally detected and radioed the presence of a single carrier in the American force"
I was reading Decision at Sea by Craig L. Symonds, and I think he actually says the time between Nagumo's demand for a confirmation from the scout plane and the plane actually finding a carrier was 10 minutes rather than 40. I may have to check again, though Masterblooregard 10:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Changed: 'Despite their horrific sacrifices' => 'Despite their losses' Removed for use of weasel words: 'It is generally agreed the valor of the torpedo squadrons was responsible for the success of the dive bombers' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.117.50.2 ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, How to decipher "CAP" in "CAP fighters", etc.? Thanks in advance. Сергей Олегович ( talk) 09:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
A source is given for This operation was considered preparatory for further attacks against Fiji and Samoa, as well as an invasion of Hawaii. it is "For a detailed discussion of anticipated follow-on Hawaiian operations, see Parshall & Tully, pp. 43–45, & Stephan, Hawaii under the Rising Sun." But what does the source say for example what was the name of the contingency plan if it existed for an invasion or was it just a contingency plan for a raid? Or is it speculation by the author that the Japanese might have been planning an invasion or a raid. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Prospects for a Hawaii invasion improved if the Battle of Midway had been won by the Japanese i.e., large numbers of US ships, including most or all aircraft carriers, destroyed (& correspondingly, in a best case scenario, few, if any, Japanese ships lost). Also, if such an outcome had occurred, the timing of a Hawaii invasion could have been delayed for as long as practical in order for the general momentum to be optimum. 76.14.240.177 ( talk) 03:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The "untrained" pilots remark got del, but it's not completely wrong. Some of the crews hadn't completed training yet. I just can't recall if they came from Midway or 1 of Fletcher's airwings... I think they were from Midway's Windindicator squadrons. Can somebody check? Trekphiler ( talk) 13:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads:
As darkness fell, both sides took stock and made tentative plans for continuing the action. Admiral Fletcher, obliged to abandon the derelict Yorktown and feeling he could not adequately command from a cruiser, ceded operational command to Spruance. Spruance knew the United States had won a great victory, but was still unsure of what Japanese forces remained at hand and was determined to safeguard both Midway and his carriers. To aid his aviators, who had launched at extreme range, he had continued to close Nagumo during the day, and persisted as night fell.
But Prange and other authors mention that Spruance withdrew to the east until midnight and then turned back west. This decision was critical because it avoided a possible night engagement with Kondo's battleships, who were pursuing the Americans at the time. Should this not be corrected? Dallan007 ( talk) 22:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
More mention here should be made that Midway was won with fantastic luck and skill by a small group of diver bombers lead by Wade McCluskey.
It was McCluskey decision to go further then they should have. It was then his decision to go north-west where they were lucky to sight the Japanese destroyer Arashii. Following the direction this destroyer was going, the US diver bombers found the Japanese fleet then they perfectly executed an assault.
Also mention here should be made of Lt. Richard Best miracle shot that took out the Akagi.
Solomon is Wise ( talk) 14:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I have renamed External links Further reading and moved all the books that are not cited out of "References" into "Further reading" and copied all the books I could find in Notes into References sorting them on the surname of the author. See WP:CITE and WP:LAYOUT, I was surprised that as this is a Featured Article this had not already been done.
Some of the entries in the reference list now need additional information such as: edition/year of publication, publisher, and ISBN-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Would someone add in information about the squadron of Marine dive bombers based on Midway? It was led by Major Lofton Henderson, who was killed during the attack on the Japanese fleet, and for whom Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was named. This is a pretty big omission. 74.194.82.219 ( talk) 02:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
From a reader (not a historian.)
The last line of the "Attacks on the Japanese fleet" section reads, "History would show Nautilus had already made a more important contribution."
It's not clear in the article what the Nautilus's contribution was. Was it locating Japanese ships?
If this could be clarified, thanks. Accordion Noir ( talk) 08:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
<--I'd leave it, aside "out of chronological order", because it really didn't amount to anything much. If she'd sunk, or even damaged, Kaga, I'd agree. She didn't, so it's not like it matters. Also, put in a footnote, its importance in the broader narrative is subdued, so "out of sequence" is less significant; given no real effect, total omission of the Kaga attack wouldn't bother me, either. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
When showing the Strength of Japanese forces in table on the right side of the article, it shows 264 carrier aircraft, and 16 floatplanes.
When showing the Casualties and Losses, it shows 332 aircraft destroyed.
The losses are more than the total forces indicated. Something is wrong here.
98.203.18.250 ( talk) 03:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Conventional wisdom Nagumo didn't have time to launch his strike birds before the inbound strike arrived is contradicted by Bicheno's Midway (which I just read, but don't have in front of me...), which says Nagumo had time but was persuaded against it by his staffers (not Fuchida or Tomonaga, but Kobayashi & Kikumi, IIRC). If somebody's got a copy handy, the "quandry" bears revision. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 22:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
In reply Clarityfiend, no, USN boats wern't so effective yet. They were, however, easily reaching Home Waters, Tsushima Strait, Yellow Sea, & Luzon/Formosa Straits with virtually no interference from Japanese ASW for the duration. The need for bases to (try to) plug the gaps was fairly clear, even to IJN's incompetent ASW command. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 02:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There have been some new additions by
TREKphiler recently. They are appropriately sourced, but it's getting somewhat confusing. Now we have sections stating that Japan's aim was to extend the "defence perimeter", while other say that the attack was aimed at the US carrier force or demoralizing the US in order to obtain a better negotiating position.
While all those paragraphs may be "correct" in themselves, they create a somewhat confusing picture when read together. I say they should be rewritten in order to create a coherent picture again.
I also object to the introduction getting too detailed. Some of the information may easily be moved into the article body. Remember that the introduction is meant to give a broad overview of the subject. Averell ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to delete or modify the passage It remains unclear why Yorktown had not been placed under tow immediately after being hit, to get her out of reach of Japanese attack. Nimitz ordered the nearest ocean tug, the U.S.S. Vireo, to take the Yorktown under tow. But the Vireo was 160 miles away from the Yorktown. At a top speed of ten knots, it couldn't arrive until midday on the fifth.-- Work permit ( talk) 00:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
(part one of the Japanese plan having been successful just six months earlier at Pearl Harbor)
This is misleading, as it makes Midway seem like part of a one-two punch, along with Pearl Harbor. The reality is, the Japanese failed to destroy the American carrier fleet at Pearl Harbor (and more generally, to neutralize American naval power in the Pacific), and because of this failure they had to come back and try again.
The attack on Midway was part one of a much larger plan. Part two was the invasion and conquest of Hawaii. The Japanese carriers were sailing ahead of troop transports filled with (I believe) 100,000 Japanese troops. They were all expecting to be landing on Hawaii very soon, once the US carriers were out of the way and the islands defenceless. This is all in Walter Lord's masterful book Incredible Victory, but it is surprisingly absent in almost every account of the Battle of Midway you will see (including ours - I'd do something about this but I don't have handy Lord's book or anything equivalent to reference). -- user:TimShell - 10 Aug 2004
It is today's feature artcle and is being constantly vandalised. Could we get a lock please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.172.246.196 ( talk • contribs)
See Talk:Battle of Midway#Page has been vandalised below. DrKiernan 11:53, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
Midway was the first purely carrier battle.
Taranto was a raid on a port from a carrier. This was nothing new. The RNAS carried out raids from carriers as far back as WW1. The first carrier vs carrier battle was indeed the Battle of the Coral Sea, as Raul suggests. This was before Midway. Tannin 10:37, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Mention is made in the article of the possibility of the United States suing for peace in the event of the destruction of the American pacific fleet and the occupation of Hawaii. This is exceedingly unlikely due to a large number of factors. First the American people were incensed by the attacks on Pearl Harbor and wouldnt have acquiesed to capitulation. More importantly the United States had enormously greater military potential than Japan. It could have built a continental land Army in the tens of millions which would have made any invasion by Japan impossible. Even discounting its overwhelming superiority as a land power in North America, the US could have protected its west coast from attack through the use of long range air power until such time as naval forces were constructed in California or elsewhere with which the Japanese Navy could not hope to cope. Any history of WW2 in the pacific should begin and end with the question of why Japan attacked a power many times its size. Japan of the 1930-40s was a mostly agrarian power and, although possessed of reasonably high quality military industries, was simply not capable of engineering a victory over the fairly mature industrial economy of the United States.
Will McElgin 9/14/04
I have changed the discussion of Japanese prospects for achieving their strategic objectives in the Pacific back to what it was when I last edited it on 9/14/04. There is certainly some significant controversy about Japanese objectives but there is very little doubt about their prospects for victory. The Japanese attack on the US was a huge strategic blunder (see my comments above) which made a catastrophe for Japan inevitable unless Germany could quickly secure a defeat of both Russia and Britain. To suggest that the US would have sued for peace, given its overwhelming industrial superiority and its immense anger and disdain toward Japan, due to an attack that was by no means crippling of American strategic potential is just a huge distortion. It would have run totally counter to American self conceptions and centuries of behavior of other nations in similar situations. It was the Japanese attack itself that was the anomaly; a weaker power attacking a clearly stronger one is quite rare in history. I wont persist in this effort if people insist upon reinserting this distortion but at least I have tried to correct it twice.
Will McElgin 10/02/04
Let me just say that the IJN wasn't really calling the shots in 1941. *They* knew if things went well, which they were duty-bound to effect, they could only hold off the USN for a year or three, but the army was full of piss and vinegar and knew it could defeat any force (other than the Russians perhaps) that could ship itself into the theatre. And to a large extent that was true. The IJA underestimated the logistical difficulties of empire and got bloodied in the various island fights, but these were largely IJN shows... the IJA's focus was still on China and the newly-won southern resource areas. In 1944 and 1945 the introduction of the B-29 into the theatre and the change of tactics to firebombing Japanese cities changed the rules on the IJA and their plans for home defense became rather inoperative.
There is an error in the third paragraph of the section entitled "Before the Battle". In this paragraph, it states that Yamomoto was on board the Yamata in the southern Aleutians. This last bit is clearly in error, because the Yamata and the rest of the main battle group with Yamomoto was located several hundred miles to the west of Midway. This reference to the southern Aleutians should be corrected.
Yamato.--
131.238.92.62 09:45, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I added a small section discussing Robert D. Ballard's effort to locate the sunken ships from the Battle of Midway.
I removed this paragraph:
This seems rather biased to me. (1) The Japanese were in fact able to change their plans during the battle (preparing to make second strike on Midway, for example). (2) The on-the-scene command style almost led to disaster for the Americans at Leyte Gulf. (3) The Japanese counterpart to Fletcher and Spruance was surely Nagumo (present at the battle), not Yamamoto. Please comment. Gdr 12:21, 2004 Nov 8 (UTC)
Quoted from article: Having scored a decisive victory, American forces retired. The loss of four carriers stopped the expansion of the Japanese Empire in the Pacific, and put Japan on the defensive. It had been six months to the day since the attack on Pearl Harbor. Admiral Yamamoto had predicted to his superiors that Japan would prevail for only six months to a year against the United States, after which American resources would begin to overwhelm the Japanese Navy. He had been exactly correct. This was good.
I'm removing the comment emphasised. This is as non-neutral as it gets. nihil 20:14, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A new section on Midways's overall impact. Sparten
This is not original reserch. This is based on the analysis placed on the Battle by Theodore F Cook Jr, which he wrote for the book "What if". In it he wrote about a Japanese Victory at Midway and its results on the war. He wrote this as an analysis of what a victory would have ment acedemically (not a counter-factual history as written by some authors). These are his conclusions. I have read that book and the particular article a dozen times and can almost quote it from memory. I had misplaced the original, so could not provide a reference, but have since gone and bought a new one. I have added the reference. ISBN 0330487248,plz check this on Amazon, and on the "further reading" section
I've added a sentence to the effect that a defeat at Midway might have put so much political presssure on FDR that the "Germany First" priority might've been challenged. -- Andersonblog 03:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Could they have mounted a successful assault against the Hawaiian Islands? It took them four months to beat a polygot American infantry division in the Phillipenes, without adequate supply.
I edited the final paragraphs, because I don't feel comfortable about the inclusion of long term strategic hypotheticals. They are also factually inaccurate, since the IJA had no plans to invade Hawaii should the Midway operation had succeeded; also, the US Navy had two additional carriers in the Pacific, not one, and another one operating in the Atlantic--the USS Ranger--which would have certainly been transferred to the pacific had the Americans lost catastrophically at Midway.
Please read the book I reffered to. The Japanese did have plans to invade Hawaii, if they won Midway. Yamamoto's aide was the man responsible for planning. In anycase the Americans would have given up Hawaii as a bad job, at least for the time being. USS Ranger was too small. Yamamoto had planned that to win the war, they would have to capture Hawaii and destroy Panama.
Finally
Remember the Part about "No original research?."
I am trying to keep this discussion real, not an exercise in counterfact which ignores the logistical difficulties the Japanese army and Navy suffered under.
I recommend the book "Midway: The Battle That Doomed Japan" by Mitsuo Fuchida & Masatake Okumiya. It is an in-depth discussion of the battle, its plans and objectives by two Japanese naval aviators who were privy to the plans and personalities involved. They mention nothing about a hawaiian invasion.
I also recommend that you look at the US Army order of battle for the hawaiian islands in August, 1942.
I made a pass through the Battle section, fixing various inaccuracies. This could still use some more editing; I have a lot more respect for historical writers now!
I also edited out the conclusions about Hawaii being abandoned, the Panama canal being closed, the Manhattan project being shelved, and the Pacific campaign being stopped all due to the hypothetical Japanese victory... Sheer idiocy. Japan didn't have the oil or fleet oilers to do much of anything, OK? Japan trying to take and hold Hawaii (with what army???) would have ended the war quicker, given the relative logistics advantages the US enjoyed there.
From the "orphaned" references and purple prose, and from the way that sections have been placed without regard to existing text, it would seem that much of this article has been lifted from other sources without attribution. I agree with the previous poster that it needs work, which I've done; but more is needed. Others, please lend a hand. This should be just as well done as the
Pearl Harbor article.
—
J M Rice 06:12, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
I removed the line about Yamamoto's attack plan being bold and ingenious. He divided his forces in a failed diversionary attempt, and thus lost the battle. It couldn't have been that ingenious.
The division of forces was a violation of one of the basic principles of war, mass.-- 131.238.92.62 09:50, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Well when you had already lost superiority what can you do except of being "creative" ? Ericd 20:52, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the intel section. Jasper's plan didn't call for a message en clair (tho it's often rendered as such) but in a compromised cypher (probably 1 captured at Wake). Trekphiler 12:55, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me the following needs rewriting:
It smacks of POV, contains the questionable claim Japan assumed 2 carriers & the implication Yamamoto's surface forces made any difference, while overlooking the flawed dispositions (by now a familiar refrain). "One has to wonder" is an inappropriate tone. And it misses a fundamental fact of inadequate IJN recon of Midway before Nagumo's first wave launched, & the role of Midway's PBYs. Something about navy doctrine should probably be said, too; Yamamoto's plan of attack at Midway was in keeping with that of every major navy at the time (& at odds with his myth as the "brilliant carrier pioneer"), leading with the carriers (scouts), holding his heavies back for the "decisive battle". Only naval war had changed, & it was carriers that were decisive, now.
Also, something should be said to Yorktown; a "virtual wreck" she wasn't, tho often believed to be. In fact, her damage was not so severe as that, tho it was serious; her hull was mainly intact, & they got her flight deck & lifts working, which was what mattered. Trekphiler 13:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I deleted this:
It smacks of POV, & its tone is inappropriate for an encyclopedia.
I also deleted this:
While interesting, it is speculation, which has no place in an encyclopedia. It is nothing like a settled issue, even amongst those who've studied it (& I've seen extensive exchanges in newsgroups on it, not even counting professional historiography). Sounds like the writer's on a soapbox. Trekphiler 14:50, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I rewrote this:
Fletcher was still senior officer; credit was still his. Afterward, when described as "victor at Midway", Spruance by tradition (& to his eternal credit) denied it, granting the honor to Fletcher. Trekphiler 14:33, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
It needs an intelligent re-write. Spruance won the battle despite Fletcher's lack of coherent effort. Good peace admiral, terrible war admiral.-- 131.238.92.62 09:54, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
There's a new book that's just come out called " Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway" that basically says we've got the history of it all wrong: The US did not triumph against overwhelming odds, the Aleutians Operation was not a diversion, the Japanese airplanes were not sitting on deck loaded with fuel and bombs, and Japan's aviators were not wiped out during the battle. Apologies if this sounds like a teaser or like spam, but I got the book for Christmas and it appears to be very-well researched (It focuses more on Japanese carrier doctrine and flight logs than on memoirs to reach its conclusions). I'd put more down but I've got several projects going already, but I thought you all should know. Palm_Dogg 01:06, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
The strength field in the infobox should probably list the number of planes deployed by both sides. Fornadan (t) 14:37, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm likely to make some corrections to the main page based on Tony Tully and my research for "Shattered Sword: The Untold Story of the Battle of Midway." I'll try not to be too heavy-handed or oaf-like! ;-) -jon parshall-
Hey Dogg, well I was heavier handed than I intended, but that's how it went. Thanks for the kind comments on the book. I'd like to offer to you, and anyone with questions/comments about the edits I made, to feel free to contact me directly at jonp@combinedfleet.com. As for DC, yeah, that's likely--dunno when, though. Tony and I just spoke last week at the Pritzker Military History Library (www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org), and you can view the webcast of the talk from their site if you get yourself a login. Just an FYI.
2.15.2006 I updated the air strength information with new figuress from Shattered Sword. It may be too much detail; I dunno. I don't want to do an actual OB here, but I also wanted to be thorough with the aircraft types. I won't be heartbroken if someone decides to condense what I've done.
Speaking of OBs, someone (probably not me) is going to need to retrofit the OB inforamtion in Shattered Sword into the Wikipedia "Midway Order of Battle" page at some point. We made *many* corrections to the Japanese OB for the book that supersede the older OBs found in books like Fuchida's or Prange's. But I just don't have the gumption to tackle that at the moment--typesetting the OB in "Shattered Sword" was the nearest thing to the Chinese water torture that I've ever had to endure.
It is copyright, and I had to give up a couple of body parts to get ahold of it, unfortunately. I don't want to burn bridges in Japan, as it was very difficult (as in, multiple bottles of Maalox, and not a few stiff shots of gin)(not to mention probably the need for therapy) to get photo perms outta Japan. So as much as I'd like to, I'm gonna pass. It is a cool picture, though. Cheers, JP
Meanwhile, as a result of their participation in the Battle of the Coral Sea, the Japanese aircraft carrier Zuikaku was in port in Kure (near Hiroshima), waiting for an air group to be brought to her to replace her destroyed planes, while the heavily damaged Shōkaku wagroup, the Japanese made no serious attempt to get her into the forthcoming battle
2.24.2006 I have reverted to an earlier version of my description of the aviator losses. The notion that Midway's aviator losses somehow represented a "year's worth" of "pilots" for the Japanese is utterly fallacious. Now, it *is* true that pre-war Japanese pilot training programs had only cranked out a few hundred *pilots* (as distinct from "aviators", which are pilots, navigator/observer, and any other aircrew), but even by the time of Midway that picture was changing radically. The Japanese had already instituted the "ko" and "otsu" supplemental training classes for high school students, and were gearing up their mainline programs as well. Remember, Japan lost *50,000* aircraft during the course of the war, the majority of which were manned at the time of their loss. Granted, the late-war pilots weren't very good, but the point is that the Japanese were eventually able to address their pilot production issues, and actually cranked out a lot of pilots (not to mention aviators in general). That process was already underway by the time of Midway. Thus, applying a pre-war statistic for *pilot* losses to the *aviator* losses at Midway is misleading in two different dimensions, and must be corrected.
-jon parshall-
2.25.2006 Oh, I knew that going in, of course. ;-) You can't change the mythology of a battle this important overnight. But I'm in a unique position. Since I've literally re-written the book on this particular battle, I figure I ought to be able to argue my points fairly effectively. But I know, too, that people don't necessarily read the Discussion before they go edit. They just edit, and a lot of them are going to edit on the basis of the conventional wisdom, because that's all they've read (so far). So I knew that the nature of the medium meant that this would be a slow, iterative process. That's cool. I'm good with it.
-jon parshall-
3.10.2006 I added the passage in question. High school students may have made good losses in terms of numbers (look at the Battle of the Philipine Sea; no shortage of Japanese aircraft) but they could never make up for the loss of quality. The pre-war IJN chose a strategy of quality over quantity: a small pool of exceptional pilots and air crew. The loss of so many in one day was a much greater blow than you are prepared to give credit for. Pilots and aircrew who had taken a full year to train, were seasoned combat veterans and represented the elite of the navy, were gone. As you point out, in the battles for Guadalcanal, the remaining pool of pre-war pilots were ground down in a war of attrition. Your book makes the point that the Japanese training programs, although able to produce sufficient quanitity, were never able to produce good quality. That was my point, and I believe it still holds true. I've rewritten and reinserted that paragraph and trust that it has been made more clear.
-Michael Lyle-
3.15.2006 Nice rewrite, Michael; I do think that's clearer. Thanks very much for putting up with my nitpickiness.
-jon parshall-
The Plan
"As was typical of many Japanese naval plans during the Second World War, Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto's Yamamoto was later released from the Japenese Army for beingcaught in the middle of the night performing inappropriate acts on a sleeping man battle plan was complicated and intricate."
Just thought you'd want to know.
64.121.192.62 22:08, 2 March 2006 (UTC)
All the work that's been done on this article in the last few months appears, IMO, to have it worthy of nomination as a featured article (FA). However, one issue that I think would inhibit its acceptance as an FA is the lack of citations in the body of the text. Although numerous quality references are listed at the end of the entry, they aren't cited or specifically referenced throughout the article. If someone who has worked heavily on the article would be willing to go through and add the specific references, I would then hope that the article would be nominated and accepted for FA status. Cla68 12:49, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
+++
If I have the cycles, I will do that. Certainly, citation shouldn't be a problem--Shattered Sword had 1,318 endnotes (but who's counting?) and I should be able to bring appropriate citation to bear. I just didn't really know how far people wanted to go on that--too many endnotes may be seen as tedious.
-jon parshall-
+++
All right, I added some citation (May 25, 2006). There's too much of Shattered Sword, and not enough of prior sources. But then again, dang it all, when it comes to the Japanese side of things, and some of the more recent research on the battle, our book is pretty much it. I could go back and fill some more in (frankly, you could do it simply by reading through the citations we give (all 1,318 of 'em), to trace back to the original primary sources, but that would take a while. And I have my daughter's room to sheetrock. ;-)
Cheers,
-jon parshall-
P.S. Added some more on May 26, and fleshed it out a bit.
I changed the main article to explicitly note that Capt. Richard Fleming, although the recipient of the Medal of Honor, did not in fact hit Mikuma, either with his bomb or his aircraft. That's a common myth of the battle, although interestingly contemporary Marine Corps reports make it clear that Fleming went down off Mikuma's fantail by a good distance. However, the famous photos of Mikuma taken near her sinking seem to show some sort of wreckage on the top of Turret #4, and this has commonly been described as wreckage from Fleming's plane--I remember seeing that very citation in one of the American Heritage books as a child in the early 1970s. However, this wreckage is, in fact, the remains of Mikuma's mainmast and aft superstructure, as well as torn up lagging sheeting on the roof of the turret. Finally, of course, the Japanese records make absolutely no mention of having been struck by an American aircraft, and all things being equal they must of course be given greater weight of consideration over American aviator accounts--it was, after all, *their* ship, and the conditions of Mikuma's damage are *very* well documented by the Japanese.
-jon parshall-
I've removed it until you can provide a citation.
Removed Text: Although contemporary research has revealed that neither Fleming's bomb nor his aircraft actually struck the ship itself.
68.97.2.180 18:09, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
I reverted a recent change edit that called Midway the largest naval battle of World War II, because that honor belongs to the Battle of Leyte gulf.
-jon parshall-
John Ford directed the film he didn't shot footage of the battle himself. I've just verified from my mp4 copy of the movie. "The following authentic scene were made by U.S. Navy photographers.". Please notice that the film also include some fictional scenes but the US navy didn't care about this at that time. Ericd 17:54, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
"some fictional scenes" well I first wrote this from memory. But soon after I spent some time to verify. Well not much but they're there. Probably less than 10 seconds in an 18 minutes movie. Ericd 18:01, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone think of a reason why Image:VT-6TBDs.jpg should not be cropped? savidan (talk) (e@) 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
(Tried)to highlight questionable areas Jonathan smith 112281 00:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
In the paragraph about how Midway was confirmed to be the identity of objective "AF", Cdr Rochefort is described as having the idea to get the IJN to confirm this themselves by the intrigue of the supposed drinking water shortage on Midway. The paragraph concludes with the following: "Rochefort died in 1976; in 1985 he was posthumously awarded the Distinguished Service Medal (United States) and later in 1986 he was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom." As written, this sentence is off-topic for the paragraph and sounds more like a biographical note on Rochefort. It should either be removed or re-worded to more clearly point back to Rochefort's intelligence coup. I have done the latter. Comments? Mike 15:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
"Likewise, it is arguable that reallocation of air and naval resources might have delayed amphibious operations in North Africa, the Mediterranean, and perhaps at Normandy."
I have a small issue with this sentence - as far as I'm aware, the amphibious operations in the Med were limited by the availability of transport shipping, especially landing craft and would therefore have been largely unaffected by any US carrier losses at Midway. One could argue that a US deafeat at Midway would have put the Allies on the strategic defensive in the Pacific, which would have released shipping for use in the Med and in fact brought operations in this theatre [B]forward[/B] and not delayed them. Any thoughts? Rubisco 14:38, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
This line seems unrealistic. If the U.S. had lost all three carriers at Midway, they could not have transferred any significant units to bolster their defenses. Wasp was transferred to the Pacific right after the battle, and she and Saratoga would probably have been expected to fight a static defense until more carriers could be made available. It's possible that in such desperate circumstances the Ranger might have been deployed to the Pacific as well, but it seems unlikely since she rolled too much in rough seas and had weak defensive armor. The U.S. might have been forced to write off the New Hebrides and even Hawaii and relocate the fleet to the West Coast. Since carriers were the primary instrument of battle in the theater, no ammount of shipping transfers would have alieviated the situation. Dallan007 20:39, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This may have been corrected by other scholars, but I thought "Miracle at Midway" and other books stated that Sōryū was sunk by Yorktown's squadron and Akagi and Kaga were sunk by Enterprise. I understand the issue may be in doubt, but has evidence shown that the current article (Kaga sunk by Yorktown, Sōryū and Akagi by Enterprise) the accepted version? 75.25.65.83 04:48, 16 October 2006 (UTC)Dallan007
I don't see much mention of the USMC's part in the battle. Major Lofton Henderson (for whom Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was named) led a mixed squadron of SBD Dauntlesses and SB2U Vindicators against the Japanese fleet. See the article on the Midway order of battle. 198.49.81.33 14:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Corrected number of hits on Akagi from 2 and a near miss to 1 and a near miss. Strangely Shattered Sword is cited, which is my source as well, and clearly says that there was only one direct hit, plus a very near miss that caused rudder damage. -- Shyland 22:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Neither of the authors are professional historians. They go too far in trying to break the battle down into a minute by minute explication of 'what really happened.' Just because a record or note says something happened at 1057 doesn't mean it did for certain. In a courtroom eyewitness testimony usually trumps written records. And while they have much evidence (not to mention cool graphics) to support their theories and suppositions, that does not automatically make them all true. Especially if it requires discounting much competent eyewitness testimony.
They offer good arguments for why it is unlikely that Akagi was hit by more than one bomb. On the other hand, they offer that a 'geyser' of water pushed up the steel framework and wood of isthe Akagi's aft flight deck. Is this plausible? Maybe, maybe not. Interestingly, one key piece of evidence cited to 'prove' the aft bomb 'plunged' into the water is from the recollections of someone who WAS FOCUSED ON SOMETHING ELSE, namely, the Kaga attack. The witness was filming the Kaga attack so it seems unlikely that he was also hanging out over cothe side of the Akagi to see the bomb 'plunge' into the water.
Parshall and Tully also state that the American and Japanese (like Fuchida, who was very ill by the way) who say the Akagi's deck was full of ready aircraft are mistaken, or, worse still, lying. And while Fuchida himself may have had post-war reasons to exaggerate, not everyone else did. It is an interesting question. The 'Shattered Sword' authors appear to discount the possibility that perhaps a part of the strike force WAS in place on the deck when Richard Best & company struck. They seem to suggest that AT MOST there were some CAP Zeros on deck and no other aircraft. This is not settled, and most of the eyewitnesses are no longer around to rebut this conclusion. I would think that a NPOV would take into account ALL the sources and conclude that there may have been as many as 1/3 of the strike force on deck, or perhaps far fewer.
My point is that I think it is a mistake to simply plug in everything from this excellent work and summarily overwrite five or six decades of scholarship, not to mention eyewitness testimony. Don't get me wrong, I wrote a positive review of this work on Amazon and have recommended it to many colleagues, especially the ones to whom I already recommended the Fuchida book. Markm62 15:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Currently the "Impact" section states, "worst case", that if they had won Midway, the Japanese could have invaded Australia and Hawaii, "knocking the U.S. out of the Pacific." Maybe they could have established a foothold somewhere on Australia's north coast, but Hawaii was totally beyond their military and logistic capabilities from all that I have read. It needs changing. -- Shyland 23:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I commented on this under "Impact," but whether the Japanese could've really attacked/invaded Hawaii is one thing; the political impact in the U.S. would've been something else, not based on cold calculations about what the Japanese were really capable of. "Germany First" might have become much more difficult to sustain in the face of a Japanese victory, particularly if they'd sunk all our participating carriers rather than vice-versa. -- Andersonblog 03:33, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Had the Japanese captured Midway, the northeastern Pacific Rim would have been essentially defenseless. Success also would have removed the last capital ships in the U.S. Pacific Fleet, insuring Japanese naval supremacy in the Pacific until perhaps late 1943." I think this statement is a little over-reaching. Even if the Japanese had taken Midway, they still wouldn't have taken out Hawaii or the US fleet.-- 205.157.110.11 16:29, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Article says: "Pearl Harbor Naval Shipyard worked around the clock to patch up the carrier. Though several months of repairs was estimated for the Yorktown, 72 hours at Puget Sound Naval Shipyard was enough to restore it to a battle-worthy..." Someone who knows more about this than I and/or has access to the cited book should fix or clarify this apparent contradiction. Thanks. ColinClark 00:37, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
in this article, what is standard of data and Time? US time or Japan time? -- Rheo1905 10:45, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
What's this nonsense about a loss at Midway removing the last capital ships from the US OOB? There was still the Saratoga and the Wasp--and assuming their subsequent easy loss is a pointless exercise in counterfact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Steve Dallas ( talk • contribs) 08:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC).
Added another line to make the Discoveries heading appear underneath the Mikuma image rather than next to it. Probably doesn't even need to be entered here, but I'm bored. JeffKo427 10:18, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
Currently: Kaga, with Akagi, forming Division 1; Hiryū and Sōryū, as the 2nd Division. This isn't an area I know anytyhing about, but should the text not be parallel? "Division 1... Division 2," "first division...second division," or "1st Division...2nd Division," whichever conforms to Japanese practice. — OtherDave 14:10, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
The article says, "in the hands of both Nagumo and Yamamoto prior to the battle." This is far from certain. In Yamamoto's, yes; it seems Nagumo (in time-honored military tradition) didn't get the word from Tokyo, & Yamamoto, to conceal the fact Yamato was at sea, didn't tell him... Trekphiler 04:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The article says,
"Nagumo's window of decision" & his "fateful decision" were irrelevant; Spruance had begun launching at 07.00, & his birds would hit Nagumo before Nagumo's hit him. The outcome was already decided. The problem is, I can't find a historiographer who expressly says so... Trekphiler 05:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
It also says
The first message from Scout 4 was at 0720, with an amplification at 0740; see Willmott, Barrier, & Fuchida & Okumiya. Trekphiler 10:09, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The article says,
I don't see the connection. "Allied supply lines to the Indian Ocean" were little threatened by the Japanese, so its effect on the Suez or Africa is trivial. I'm less than completely convinced the attrition at Guadalcanal made much difference, either, considering U.S. submarines had brought the Japanese economy more or less to a halt by January 1945. See Blair, Silent Victory. I'd say this needs a rewrite. Trekphiler 05:33, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The article notes "several new squadrons (drawn from carrier Saratoga". The Japanese didn't do this for
Shōkaku, intact after
Coral Sea; mention it? I've never seen a source specifically say they didn't, but no source I've seen says they did, & there were air groups available...
Trekphiler 01:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the TBDs on the Hornet, there was a detachment on Midway Island which flew the TBF Avenger. They didn't have much better luck, I think 5 of 6 aircraft were lost. The surviving Avenger was damaged, but made it back to Midway: Here are some photos from www.history.navy.mil.
I removed the words "sole survivor of VT-8" from the image of George Gay, because a couple of VT-8 aircrew also survived. He ws the sole survivor of VT-8s TBD aircrew though. Anynobody 03:57, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I rewrote
based on Willmott & on Fuchida & Okumiya. As noted above, "the fateful decision" wasn't; it was out of his hands when Strawberry 5 spotted him. Trekphiler 02:19, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
In the first paragraph there is too much pointless information that does not pertain to the article at all. I suggest major revisions of that portion are done. Designdroide 23:09 Mountian Tine
in the cryptology section, what does it mean by the cryptoanalysts were "blacked out"? 71.161.41.63 22:25, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
The discovery section (repeated below) has been vandalised - how can it be rolled back to its non juevinille state?
[edit] Discovery ===U.S. vessel was as big as my giant dingaling depth of the ocean in the area of the battle (more than 17,000 feet/5200 m), researching the battlefield has presented extraordinary difficulties. However, on May 19, 1998, Robert Ballard and a team of masterbaters and ball suckers (including Japanese participants) located and photographed Yorktown. The ship was remarkably intact for a vessel that sank in 1942; much of the original equipment, and even the original paint scheme were still visible.
'The battle was an American victory widely regarded as the most important naval engagement of World War II.'
Let the facts of the article speak for themself rather than peacocking it up with unsourced statements. Narson 11:47, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
"Despite the intrinsic and artificial limitations to the usefulness of Allied access to the enemies secret traffic, both Ultra and the American 'Magic' organizations were undoubtedly responsible for major, even crucial, strategic success in the Second World War. The first and most important was the victory ad Midway, where knowledge of the Japanese intentions allowed the Americans to position their inferior fleet of carriers in such a way as to destroy the much larger enemy force. Midway, the most important naval battle of the Second World War, reversed the tide of the advantage in the Pacific and laid the basis fore America's eventual triumph" -- John Keegan, The Second World War (1989), pg 501. Raul654 00:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
This paragraph frankly seems almost apologetic for the Japanese. That the captured American flyers were murdered is fairly well documented, by Prange and others.
128.165.87.144 22:01, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
The page for William Satterlee Pye states that Admiral Pye ordered seven battleships sortied from San Fran to Midway, but they are not mentioned here. Does anyone have any information on this? -- Daysleeper47 16:16, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
The information on that page is incorrect. Pye order Task Force One, comprised of six battleships, to sortie from San Francisco and patrol the California coast during the Midway operation. There was still a concern that either Hawaii or California might be the actual target. Dallan007 19:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm rather surprised that this article doesn't even contain a cursory reference to American cryptanalysis. It's surely not controversial to assert that breaking the JN-25 naval code was a major factor in the American victory, is it? Shouldn't there be at least a few links, if not a paragraph in the before-the-battle section? NewEnglandYankee 19:30, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
I am surprised that an interesting story about the codebreaking was not included. According to several sources, the American codebreakers had decoded messages that Japan was about to attack an island with the code word "AF". They were pretty sure that "AF" meant Midway, but because of the state of the US navy they had to make certain. To do this, an officer was sent to Midway with verbal orders that the Commandant should send a message {in a code that they knew the Japanese had broken} to the effect that Midway's water distillation plant had broken down. Three days later the codebreakers intercepted a message from the Japanese at Kawajalein Atoll that "AF" was short of water, and this enabled Nimitz to commit his forces to the plan. User: Plerdsus 20:03 7 June 2007
what does "Spotting" in the sentence "Spotting his flight decks and launching aircraft would require at least 30–45 minutes to accomplish." mean?
Not challenging, but would like to know why the romance in the movie would/should be considered a "preposterous romance". Thx.
Excellent article. Perhaps this is a nit, but did the Japanese call their attack against the Aleutians "Operation AL"? "Operation MI" is a little more believable, but were the Japanese war plans drafted in English? How would you spell "AL" in kana? 65.114.23.6 19:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I deleted this
and this
and this
as irrelevant to Midway; put it in Pacific War, if you think it's of value. I also deleted this
and this
as speculation. It's equally probable it would have shifted forces out of the SWPA, away from MacArthur, as FDR realized he didn't have the luxury of a "dual road" strategy; moving Oz submarines to Pearl would have significantly shortened the war, as would the preclusion of MacArthur's obsessive "return" to the Philippines. It would also have freed up landing craft, which would have made it possible to execute ANVIL and NEPTUNE similtaneously, as originally intended, which would (probably) have shortened the war. It might also have freed up Oz & AUS troops, making it more likely (if not extremely so) NEPTUNE might go off in 1943, instead; now, it's speculation about whether the Italian campaign would have happened, & whether a "disaster" at Midway would've given FDR leverage with Winston to call off Italy: that would indubitably have shortened the war. The bigger question is, would Japan have been defeated without use of the Bomb; it it wasn't, it's been suggested there might have been a major nuclear war, as the Soviets (or Stalin) doubt the West's willingness to actually use it. (I have a suspicion this was Spinrad's vision in Iron Dream.) And there's enormous flexibility in planning, economic & military; loss of two carriers, against the number actually built, was trivial. (The Essexes wouldn't arrive until 1943 in any case, but it might have put pressure on the earlier development of bulk carrier MAC-conversions, & on the priority for LCs; realizing carriers could not be built faster without significant diversion, LCs might have ended up with higher priority than historically, with results like above, plus the ability to land more men at ANVIL and NEPTUNE: a French corps, say...?) Regardless, this is no place for speculation; want to speculate, write a novel. (Don't bet on FDR replacing Nimitz; he wasn't near as quick to fire people as Winnie was.) Trekphiler 19:30, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
"Another 40 minutes elapsed before Tone's scout finally detected and radioed the presence of a single carrier in the American force"
I was reading Decision at Sea by Craig L. Symonds, and I think he actually says the time between Nagumo's demand for a confirmation from the scout plane and the plane actually finding a carrier was 10 minutes rather than 40. I may have to check again, though Masterblooregard 10:38, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Changed: 'Despite their horrific sacrifices' => 'Despite their losses' Removed for use of weasel words: 'It is generally agreed the valor of the torpedo squadrons was responsible for the success of the dive bombers' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.117.50.2 ( talk) 17:58, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, How to decipher "CAP" in "CAP fighters", etc.? Thanks in advance. Сергей Олегович ( talk) 09:43, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
A source is given for This operation was considered preparatory for further attacks against Fiji and Samoa, as well as an invasion of Hawaii. it is "For a detailed discussion of anticipated follow-on Hawaiian operations, see Parshall & Tully, pp. 43–45, & Stephan, Hawaii under the Rising Sun." But what does the source say for example what was the name of the contingency plan if it existed for an invasion or was it just a contingency plan for a raid? Or is it speculation by the author that the Japanese might have been planning an invasion or a raid. -- Philip Baird Shearer 10:43, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment: Prospects for a Hawaii invasion improved if the Battle of Midway had been won by the Japanese i.e., large numbers of US ships, including most or all aircraft carriers, destroyed (& correspondingly, in a best case scenario, few, if any, Japanese ships lost). Also, if such an outcome had occurred, the timing of a Hawaii invasion could have been delayed for as long as practical in order for the general momentum to be optimum. 76.14.240.177 ( talk) 03:45, 23 November 2008 (UTC)
The "untrained" pilots remark got del, but it's not completely wrong. Some of the crews hadn't completed training yet. I just can't recall if they came from Midway or 1 of Fletcher's airwings... I think they were from Midway's Windindicator squadrons. Can somebody check? Trekphiler ( talk) 13:38, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
The article currently reads:
As darkness fell, both sides took stock and made tentative plans for continuing the action. Admiral Fletcher, obliged to abandon the derelict Yorktown and feeling he could not adequately command from a cruiser, ceded operational command to Spruance. Spruance knew the United States had won a great victory, but was still unsure of what Japanese forces remained at hand and was determined to safeguard both Midway and his carriers. To aid his aviators, who had launched at extreme range, he had continued to close Nagumo during the day, and persisted as night fell.
But Prange and other authors mention that Spruance withdrew to the east until midnight and then turned back west. This decision was critical because it avoided a possible night engagement with Kondo's battleships, who were pursuing the Americans at the time. Should this not be corrected? Dallan007 ( talk) 22:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
More mention here should be made that Midway was won with fantastic luck and skill by a small group of diver bombers lead by Wade McCluskey.
It was McCluskey decision to go further then they should have. It was then his decision to go north-west where they were lucky to sight the Japanese destroyer Arashii. Following the direction this destroyer was going, the US diver bombers found the Japanese fleet then they perfectly executed an assault.
Also mention here should be made of Lt. Richard Best miracle shot that took out the Akagi.
Solomon is Wise ( talk) 14:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
I have renamed External links Further reading and moved all the books that are not cited out of "References" into "Further reading" and copied all the books I could find in Notes into References sorting them on the surname of the author. See WP:CITE and WP:LAYOUT, I was surprised that as this is a Featured Article this had not already been done.
Some of the entries in the reference list now need additional information such as: edition/year of publication, publisher, and ISBN-- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:07, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Would someone add in information about the squadron of Marine dive bombers based on Midway? It was led by Major Lofton Henderson, who was killed during the attack on the Japanese fleet, and for whom Henderson Field on Guadalcanal was named. This is a pretty big omission. 74.194.82.219 ( talk) 02:48, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
From a reader (not a historian.)
The last line of the "Attacks on the Japanese fleet" section reads, "History would show Nautilus had already made a more important contribution."
It's not clear in the article what the Nautilus's contribution was. Was it locating Japanese ships?
If this could be clarified, thanks. Accordion Noir ( talk) 08:26, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
<--I'd leave it, aside "out of chronological order", because it really didn't amount to anything much. If she'd sunk, or even damaged, Kaga, I'd agree. She didn't, so it's not like it matters. Also, put in a footnote, its importance in the broader narrative is subdued, so "out of sequence" is less significant; given no real effect, total omission of the Kaga attack wouldn't bother me, either. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 02:47, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
When showing the Strength of Japanese forces in table on the right side of the article, it shows 264 carrier aircraft, and 16 floatplanes.
When showing the Casualties and Losses, it shows 332 aircraft destroyed.
The losses are more than the total forces indicated. Something is wrong here.
98.203.18.250 ( talk) 03:16, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Conventional wisdom Nagumo didn't have time to launch his strike birds before the inbound strike arrived is contradicted by Bicheno's Midway (which I just read, but don't have in front of me...), which says Nagumo had time but was persuaded against it by his staffers (not Fuchida or Tomonaga, but Kobayashi & Kikumi, IIRC). If somebody's got a copy handy, the "quandry" bears revision. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 22:15, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
In reply Clarityfiend, no, USN boats wern't so effective yet. They were, however, easily reaching Home Waters, Tsushima Strait, Yellow Sea, & Luzon/Formosa Straits with virtually no interference from Japanese ASW for the duration. The need for bases to (try to) plug the gaps was fairly clear, even to IJN's incompetent ASW command. TREKphiler hit me ♠ 02:08, 20 November 2008 (UTC)
There have been some new additions by
TREKphiler recently. They are appropriately sourced, but it's getting somewhat confusing. Now we have sections stating that Japan's aim was to extend the "defence perimeter", while other say that the attack was aimed at the US carrier force or demoralizing the US in order to obtain a better negotiating position.
While all those paragraphs may be "correct" in themselves, they create a somewhat confusing picture when read together. I say they should be rewritten in order to create a coherent picture again.
I also object to the introduction getting too detailed. Some of the information may easily be moved into the article body. Remember that the introduction is meant to give a broad overview of the subject. Averell ( talk) 17:10, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
I'd like to delete or modify the passage It remains unclear why Yorktown had not been placed under tow immediately after being hit, to get her out of reach of Japanese attack. Nimitz ordered the nearest ocean tug, the U.S.S. Vireo, to take the Yorktown under tow. But the Vireo was 160 miles away from the Yorktown. At a top speed of ten knots, it couldn't arrive until midday on the fifth.-- Work permit ( talk) 00:07, 23 November 2008 (UTC)