This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between November 2005 and December 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Dyslexic agnostic 07:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the tag that this article is way too long now. Although I think most of this can be remedied by makign the text more conscise in certain areas, especially in descriptions of links to other articles. A similar problem exists with the Superman article. WesleyDodds 17:28, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have taken the liberty of reducing the "love interests" and "character parts", by creating Supporting characters of Batman (just like previously Enemies of Batman was created. The important names still appear with wikis to most of their own articles, so all relevant content is still only a click away. I do agree with hiving off the Batman in Other Media and Batman Bibliography into another section. Dyslexic agnostic 10:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've done the same for Batman in other media... I think we are getting close to the size we want for this page (I have reduced it by a third in length, and gone from 84 kb to 57 Kb). Dyslexic agnostic 11:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Further creation of Batman (bibliography) gets us to 53 kb; therefore, I have removed the "verylong" tag (although there is certainly more fat to be trimmed, especially under costume, equipment, etc.). I, however, think I will leave that to others more capable than myself ;-) Dyslexic agnostic 08:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Batcave revisions done. This brings us to 50 kb. Dyslexic agnostic 20:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
One more thought... putting "Batman parodies/references" into the Batman in other media subtopic (with a brief comment left behind to entice readers to seek more detail in the subtopic) would free up substantial space. Comments? Dyslexic agnostic 08:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, the "crossovers" section is too long and (imho) unnecessary). Comments? Dyslexic agnostic 20:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Been trying to revert some of the vandalism on the page (along with some rewriting to show a more NPOV). If article size is a problem, maybe deleting the rather extensive "Costume" section material pertaining to Azrael (and sticking it on his page, if needed) would help free up a bit more space? (Also pondering splitting the "evolution of the concept" section into Golden Age, Silver Age & Modern Age subsections a la the Superman page's such sections, though not sure if others would think this is a good idea or not and/or if it'd make the page size too big,though perhaps some material from a few other sections could be folded in if applicable to save space...). Anthony Dean 00:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
There's definitely a great deal of redundant material on the page. Would it make sense to add a 'Batman: Important Storylines' page, and basically clear everything about Year One, Killing Joke, etc except a one-line synopsis out? Simnel 23:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Lesfer put the "very long" notice back up. I just reduced Batman from 84 kb to 45 kb... What more should I do? Dyslexic agnostic 23:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
(I suggest absorbing the Costume section into the Batsuit article)
Bill Finger gets no "official credit" for Bats? He named Bruce Wayne, suggested the scalloped cape & "whiteout" eyes, & conceived the Batcave. (He also went a bit batty naming "bat-things," it's true...) Also, any comment on Bats' rel to Rorschach? I mean, it's been suggested Bats is the real guy, & Bruce is the disguise; as he says in JLI, "Underneath, I'm hideous." (OK, he could've been joking, but--Bats, joking?) BTW, I'm N a fan, so I'm N qualified to xam the ish, just raising it. (For the record, his worst enemy? JLI; "I should never come out in the daytime.") Trekphiler 16:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Made some changes to the Evolution of the Concept section, specifically the last four paragraphs. Tightened up the prose in the year one paragraph, also talked a little bit more about WHY it was significant. Seemed strange to me to have a grocery list of other stories set in the year one era, but I'm new here and didn't want to delete anyone else's stuff. Same thing with the next paragraph -- it said 'Killing Joke is contriversial', then totally skipped over the contriversal part. I'm not particularly happy with the text though. Made similar revisions to the Jason Todd paragraph. -Simnel
"There is a strong -- and relatively explicitly shown -- suggestion that the Joker does this, in part, by showing Gordon pictures of his daughter being crippled and raped (Evolution of the concept)."
I have a little bit of beef with this line: I went and re-read the graphic novel and no rape was obvious. Now, I understand that perhaps showing that would be too harsh for any writer of any graphic novel to do, but I do still greatly doubt that the Joker had raped Barbara Gordon, but rather undressed her and put her in provocative positions (please take into account that some serial killers don't rape their victims, but wait until their dead, take a picture, and masturbate over their bodies).
The whole point was to turn James Gordon nutty, Barbara was just as a means of getting that response.
Also, this is the Joker we're talking about: his sexuality is very much in question because he seems asexual, shown by his lack of sexual interest in Harley Quinn, or any other woman (or man for that matter), as well as his non-sexual crimes (he goes for no particular gender, and it is only thin speculation that he has raped).
Whether his lack of sexuality is because of his obsession with the Batman, his battle with insanity, his possible surpression of homosexuality (which I doubt), or perhaps he is asexual, the idea that the Joker rapes is very unfitting to his character. He might put a person in a place where there is a high chance that person can be raped, but I doubt he'd do it himself.
I just noticed that the "N." was correctly removed from "Bruce N. Wayne" on the article. I'm not sure who originally put the "N." in the name, but I thought I should point out for posterity's sake that "Bruce N. Wayne" is a private detective cousin of Bruce Wayne after whom Batman's secret identity was named, but the Batman Bruce Wayne's middle initial—if any actually exists—has never been revealed. His full name—until a middle name or middle initial is "revealed" in the comics—should be simply "Bruce Wayne" without the N. Kaijan 05:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Bruce’s IQ being at least 230 seems pretty unrealistic. While I understand Bats is most certainly a genius, plus being a fictional character that certain liberties may be taken, it seems like this figure (possibly from Wizard) is the result of exaggerated fandom. (Anyone who’s been to Batman fan message boards knows that some of his militant fanboys find him completely infallible and unable to be defeated) While I’m a huge Batman fan, I dislike it when his abilities are inflated. Wizard has been known to print inaccurate figures regarding heroes, and would like to see something close to being “official” regarding his intelligence. However, I would like to see what the rest of the WikiProject Comics community thinks before taking action in the article. (If anyone would like to talk to me about talk page policy, please feel free, as this is my first time posting in one.) Thanks. Arcanum7Arcanum7 Arcanum7
You did perfectly fine using the talk page. I think it's a good idea to simply state that Batman is of genius intelligence. The whole IQ bit, despite the controversy of IQ accuracy in the real world, is impossible to pin down unless stated by the creator. Ereinion 01:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think his IQ is at the top of human potential, but remember, the thing about batman is that he uses 90% of his brain unlike most people, so that'd exponenciate his potential. He is like a Sam Beckett from Quantum Leap, only usising most of his braing, most of the time and he'd be like 38, so he has like 22 yaeasr of genial thinking plus like 16 improving the art of full potential, so he also have experience at being a genius at full potencial, and the is almost like a computer, thus. And this is not a new concept, read Sherlock holmes stories, the great detective is about the same thing. But if you like human mistakes, im gonna solve 2 problems with one answer... he does make them! you see, like in this example, on top of mi mind: do you remember the Crime Doctor ep of B:TAS when he gets beaten by some stupid nurse? then there is another example of something completely the opposite, in the No Fear ep, when influenced by Scarecro's no fear gas he got just infront of an armed gang of like 5 thugs, and he started like dancing to avoid the bullets with no problem at all!! the only logical explanation (if you don't consider the first one poor writing) is that he is not perfect. he can suck! he can take Darkseid elite with a spoon, fool a hypnoticed superman with the aid of the last person you would imagine, like the penguin, a profetional skier, deadman or maybe b'wanna beast; discover that the president is an ilision created by dr. desteny, and then go back to gotham and broke his ribs fighting against some strong idiot hired by the Riddler...And that's because he is the best of the best but in the end...he's just human!! and that's why the stories keep captivating our attention!-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 08:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Scarecrow -- that 90% thing, from DC comics, is about Deathstroke: The Terminator, not Batman. Oh, and Dyslexic? I AM a geek, and I don't play one on TV :-)
Simnel 22:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Removed this line: The Batcave's utilities consist of unknown Wayne Tech technology along with Thangarian, Martian, Apokoliptan, and Kryptonian technology;"Plus the really scary crap Bruce invented" as Oliver Quenn, Green Arrow,said. Basically because, well, it's not true. The quote was made by Green Arrow during Identity Crisis about the security systems designed for the civilian homes of League members, NOT about the Batcave. Simnel 23:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
We must address the Earth-Two Batman history!!!!! Dyslexic agnostic 06:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
In a really short link-section, please. that's barely more important than the type of bat gas batman uses for the batmobile. Remember if we can't write about the Penguins personality is not so logical to talk about a batman nobody of the very general public (i never heard suchthing abut the earth II batman before i started reading comics, but knew well the penguin, the joker, catwoman, the riddler and even the scarecrow (from later superfrinds ep, "the fear")-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 01:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I see your poin and you are right, due to what is going on on the DC contynuity right now, Earth to batman might be worth a cou... a page!!! witt the intro copied here!!-- T for Trouble-maker 04:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
The gay thing is ofending to the hardcore fans of the original mythos. I'm gonna quote Seinfeld and go "not that there is anything wrong with it" but that opinion is sooo not cannonical that is out of place in a page lacking of space. But don't led that bull***t misslead you, the fact is that it's very incongruent to remove the villains and keep a hole bunch of info that fits way better with the "Comics Code Authority" article. So i decided to "be Bold" and take out the section and live a link in the "see also" section, where i think it fits better. I also think we should take out irrelevant stuff before taking out Joker or Bruce Wayne paragraphs that are so much more escential to the mythos.-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 20:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
People, try to get this: Batman, Wilma, the Charlie Brown gal, Robin, the smurfs and all the rest of those poor characters are not gay!!!! if so and if you are a hard core pro gay dude, which, again, "not that there is anything wrong with it"; are the crappiest symbols you could choose!!!!!! they are not even out of the closed!! they are the lousiest gays ever they are not gay enough to be gay and they are not brave enough to be symbols!!!!! Even the gay teletubbie succks!!! you have Jack McFarlane, the dudes from Queer as folks and the ones from QEFSG, the bals dude from REM, Freddie Mercury, Mr. Garrison Mr. Hat and Mr. Slave, in comics you have the Authorithy supes and bats equivalents; Maggie Sawyer, and so on!!!! they are there and we all like them (i don't care much for the ones from QEFSGuy and i haven't seen queer as folk) stop bugging Batman, that one is ours. Batman is our Michael Stipe, our Elton, our Jack; don't mess with him, he has spent more time with different ladies on his bed than time training robin, our man's man, the imaginary dude we'd like to be like. don't spoil this one for us. it is not a gay movement thing what makes you try to make batman and robin gay is pure inner primal beast of morbidness instinc, it is not real... well i guess is also because is batman's funny issue and yes that's been a great source of jokes matterial, but you have the key word there: joke Material...is funny because it could look like they were a child molestor and a gay sidekick it's not like that at all. Robin is not even that popular, you don´t think about him when you mention batman. you have to remember him. catwoman and the joker are way more popular. If people like robin is because is a medium to visualize your inner boy besides batman and how cool would it be to fight along him, to get advise from de dude going out with selina,pamela,talia,lois,shondra,silver,vicky,jokers girlfriend (i wrote it that way to make a point), barbara (the comish's, his best bud's daughter), diana, a novice, chase, tom cruise's fiance, kim baysinger, michelle pfiefer, nicole kidman (aka tom's ex), no mentioin julie and lee and even zz gabor and so on and on; and you get to make your moves on gold skinned firestar, wondergirl, batgirl, huntress and even azrae's girl; and also get to share all his toys!!! if you think you are impressing anyone by puting you stupid, morbid psycho-crap in this page and every one is gonna think you know la lot... well think again, you don't know s***t!! you don't get the robin idea at all and you don't think like a true super heroe fan! you're missing the whole point! you are neither living the fantasy nor experiency what the writers make true fans experience!! i thus (if so) petty you, because if you don't have imagination, what the point of reading comics then??...-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 09:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is real, and it is reasonable to link it with batman, but not to dedicate a whole section to it while there isn no space for the joker, catwoman, the penguin or robin himself. It fits way better on the comics code authority article. especially since both issues afected batman an are completely real and valid but it doesn't come from the batman autentic writers or the mythos itself, it is just either an outside joke related to the batman or when seriouly taken pure morbid opinion, real, but not oficial.Is see also kind of information, not indispensable info. At trivia detail. Trivial. It doen't come from either batman authors, DC or time warner, it comes from comedians and the arcaic Comics Code Authority, where, again, it is right now. Fact that you didn't talk about. But lets move on.
I agree the space thing is about the article being readable, wikipedias help pages say so, but there are many articles that have been reduced due to people being paranoid aboit it, this one, the superman article and believe ornot hte justice league unlimited page -which is actually a short one... do you have any concrete info abut the lenght of an article as important as this one?? -- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 22:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC) (ps: i put your updated info in the CCA page. Good work, Haiduc)
Agreed. That makes two pro pedophilic Batman. That's sad according to what i wrote before. But, remember, it was not removed, but plased in what i thik the most accurate article for the info and not without the propper link here. I propose anohter concensus with this topic: where does that section belong: in the batman page or in the ACC page. I believe you wil find my proposal very fair, since it is not censoring but placing info in the right place. Remember, pealse try reading what's been happening with the superman page before and here in the disscussion pages so that you realize this is not about sensoreship. The other dude, has said ambiguos but still very respectable stuff abuot his own preferences, so that might be clouding visions... Diferently oriented people triing to change batmans orientations, just what i first predicted this was abuot (above). DC comics created The Authority for those prefferences, there you have a row model for different prefferences...And is not like that isn't enjoyable reading for everybody, as it just happens to be, actually-- T for Trouble-maker 00:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
our opinions are not that different, i'm not denniing it is a real bat issue, only not sure abuot addresing it here, instead of in the CCa article. my problem as im sick and tired of repeating is more with hyerarchy and sections and article size. What issues are more important to the batman mythos. To me it shoud me mannaged more as a super hero card only incredibly expanded (like if firestorm were incredibly famous and long in history):
... and its not like the article is so different from my ideal which i wouldnt impose in other way than taking the insulting wertham. who in my opinion should have been deal with by suing him for character slander. In the end there is a reason nobody cared about that asshole. That's right people, he is an asshole and you are promoting pedophilia in batman's character-- T for Trouble-maker 01:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC) I wrote a introductory paragraph of the pedophilia issue as well as one of the Ambiguosly gay duo to cover both morbid views and comedy parodies. In this case due to the pointed missing info about more relevant stuff and the fact that the main articles are noth that bigger and proportionality is also logical... Besides i, you have to remember: 'Calling batman pedophilic is ofensive to its creators and true fans'... so the issue is woth addresing here, but not so much.-- T for Trouble-maker 01:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
ok done, are you happy, pappy?-- T for Trouble-maker 03:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The article needs to incorporate minority viewpoints without giving them any more or less validity than other viewpoints, and there is an easily documentable and fairly common reading of Batman wherein he's gay. This information needs to be included for the article to be encyclopedic, whether certain readers find it offensive or not. Wikipedia is not in the business of censoring information. Dave 05:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)duuuuuuuuuuude, minority view points??? ok, reading is not one of you habilities, is it? there is no succh thing as batman stories and him being gay. i need you to read a couple o'things: i need you to read what the article you adding is sayin, i need you to read what i have been saying, i need you to read a new comic i've been readin for years: it's callesd Batman dunno if you ever heard of it, but is really cool, there is already a movie if u don't like that reading thing, it has drawings though; and finally i need you to read what you wrote i don't thig you are even familiar with it: anti-batpedophilia propaganda it's not it's not exactly progay, unless the minority you talk about is republican-anal retentive sick people.
It's important to realize that the issue isn't really 'Are Batman and Robin gay?' because I don't think that anyone has seriously considered that question in forty years. The issue is, 'is that question important enough to discuss in an encyclopedic article on Batman?' Considering how much effect that question had on the development of this character and comics in general, it is a disservice NOT to discuss it here.
I've reverted it back once more.
T for Trouble-maker, your edits are filled with nonsensical malarkey, severely bringing down the quality of this article. This has been a FEATURED article, yet you continue to vandalise. The object is to bring the size of this article DOWN. For the love of God, just stop. Play with some other non-vital article, improve your skills and then, when you think you've got it down, come back and edit properly. -
The Dragonmaster 05:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
you could put some sence into my words directly, the info is there and is good, put some shape into it if you don't like it. about the size, maybe you're the one that need the experience (it is not like is bad to be new), it's not about size in terms of memory space, it's in terms of readability, abuot not having large amounts of plane prose with no imafes, lists, tables, links (colour), sub-sections, etc. the sections i improved were lacking of qualiti and were totally plain, bald,insipid and lacking of info because of a missunderstood atempt to save space. -- T for Trouble-maker 08:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Batman in other media section, it is suggested that Spawn is an Image riff on Batman. Shadowhawk, perhaps, but can anyone give a shred of proof (or even conjecture!) that Spawn takes anything from Batman other than a love of Gothic archetecture? Simnel 22:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I thoght your point was interesting. According to Scot McCloud and other authors, during the eighties grim angry violent anti heroes characters were the popular thing. We'd be talking about the same era of the Teenage mutant ninja turtles...not quite the happy mutants you probably remember from the cartoons; the kingpin-bullseye-elektra-frank miller Dare devil, which is not that different from spawn either; the return of the Dark knight, also by Frank Miller; Hob gobblin, Demo-gobblin, Venom and then Maximum Carnage; Rob Liefeld; x claremont; and then finall todd mcfarlane: te man who first gave pider positions to spiderman, created venom, draw part of batman:year two, where batman fights aganit crazy old timmer vigilante: the grim reaper... and finally him and jim lee created their own company, Image comics. So it is natural that anti-heroe spawn himself is a spawned result of all that context. So he does have batman infuence. It's sometimes called "taking elements" a common practice in literature.-- T for Trouble-maker 02:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
While I thank you for trying, T, I'm pretty sure there's not a whole lot you can teach me about either literature or comic book history. Nothing you wrote suggests any kind of link between Spawn and Batman. What we're looking for here is some kind of direct link -- either some main thematic element I'm missing that Spawn takes from Batman, or a statement by McFarlane stating that Batman was a primary incluence on Spawn. Simnel 05:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
and remember you need to quote that link to keep you statement in the batman in other media section. or else it coul be erased-- T for Trouble-maker 22:24, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay -- I did a quick web search, and I couldn't find any reference showing McFarlane explicitly suggesting Batman was an inspiration for Spawn. I'm going to remove the suggestion that he was from the main page. Simnel 09:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I apologize for being a dick. Although I swear I always work on the main page with good faith and love for the characters. The only thing I ask is that if you don’t like the info I add, don’t erase it, but put sense and quotes into my words, there is always several source for everything I write, and they are never hard to find (jlwatchtower, world’s finest, tv.com, the comics or episodes themselves, etc.). I have never erased info, if you think about it; so edit my info but don’t just censure me… I’m also a middle point fan.-- T for Trouble-maker 21:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC) My point are this:
i'm gonna hate myself for doing this, but in the middle point spitit...-- T for Trouble-maker 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Check it out. I followed Hrich your advise. (according to myself, though)Keep in mind this observations (personal, of course, but since I realize my words usually occupy to much space in this page, so every point i need to make in the future to defend my pocition i'm gonna add it here in the list):
When i undo something i sometimes try to do it a litle diferent so that the people that disagrees like it... i suck for that why don't you try doing the same for me, maybe ou could be better for that. Thanks for the kinda second chance-- T for Trouble-maker 22:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Given Wikipedia:Verifiability I would ask that this text from the section Homosexual interpretations be sourced, please:
Could someone also clarify who/what is meant by the term "studio" in the above text. Thanks in advance, Hiding talk 16:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
-- T for Trouble-maker 10:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see you have tackled this section too... you kept all of my edits from this morning (yah!), but cut through the crap that was there before. But what about the pretty pictures, including the one I added of Bat-girl? Thoughts on the revisions? (Maybe I'll use the images on her page, or on the SOTI page...) [[User:Dyslexic agnostic|Dyslexic
I have copyedited to remove any point of view and removed some unsourced comments. I also removed the images, since the text captions accompanying these images were most definitely point of view. Please do not add such captions to images unless they are quotes from a cited source, not an editor's own words. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite sources for guidance. (batman what have you dond indeed is from wizard-- T for Trouble-maker 12:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC))
The caption to Image:Batman panel - Robin what have I done to you.jpg read The placement of Batman's reference to Robin at the end of a series of sexual innuendos renders what by itself would be a reasonable parental reaction into a comical punch line with homoerotic overtones. Unless this is a sourced quote it constitutes original research.
The caption to Image:Batgirlbettebatmite.jpg read Bat-girl introduced to prove Batman and Robin not gay. Which most definitely is point of view, and should not be presented as fact.
I also removed the following sections of text: Despite Wertham and "The Code," the theme of ambiguous sexuality continued to be played upon by both the studios and the readers until the late sixties, when changing public morality necessitated an official split between Batman and any suggestion of sexuality with his young friend. Denny O'Neil separated the two heroes in 1969 by sending Dick Grayson to college, and female characters were eventually brought in as more "proper foils" to the main hero.
This again seems to read as point of view, and since no source has been forthcoming I have removed it.
I removed the following line, The outcry particularly affected Batman comics for a number of years from the section which continues; the characters of Batwoman (in 1956) and Bat-Girl (in 1961) were introduced to "prove" that Batman and Robin were not gay, and the stories took on a campier, lighter feel. I can source the second statement, I cannot source the removed line.
I also rewrote this section, Their interpretation is seconded by Burt Ward, who, in his autobiographical Boy Wonder: My Life in Tights agrees that the characters could be interpreted as lovers, while the show's double entendres and lavish camp help make the case persuasive. to remove point of view assertions, presenting a more neutral and balanced version, Burt Ward has also remarked upon this possible interpretation, in his autobiographical Boy Wonder: My Life in Tights noting that the characters could be interpreted as lovers, with the show's double entendres and lavish camp also offering ambiguous interpretation..
I would also request a source for this text:Wertham became aware of this alternative reading through his conversations with fans of Batman in the fifties, who brought the comic book to his attention as an example of the idealization of a "homosexual lifestyle.", which I believe must be easy given the quotation in the last line. My understanding is that Wertham went looking for such readings, not that they were brought to his attention. Hiding talk 09:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)agnostic]] 09:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Hiding, you might want to note that there has been a LOT of jackassery on this page, vandalism and edit wars aplenty, in the last few weeks. I personally didn't see anything from you when I checked my watchlist last night; tonight, I saw "Well, I asked for sourcing, didn't get anything so made changes." Don't be surprised if your stuff got reverted.
That being said -- good show, while I don't agree with 100% of your changes, they all seem reasonable and well-thought out. Hopefully we'll get this article back to where it deserves to be a feature again.
Simnel 23:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Point taken re the POV comments under the images. But I believe the Bat-girl image is suitable, with the captioon removed. Dyslexic agnostic 09:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Panels from World's Finest #289 Panels from World's Finest #289 Dyslexic agnostic 10:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
For now I updated my points (and delated most of the old ones above to save space):
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This archive page covers approximately the dates between November 2005 and December 2005.
Post replies to the main talk page, copying or summarizing the section you are replying to if necessary.
Please add new archivals to Talk:Batman/Archive03. (See Wikipedia:How to archive a talk page.) Thank you. Dyslexic agnostic 07:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with the tag that this article is way too long now. Although I think most of this can be remedied by makign the text more conscise in certain areas, especially in descriptions of links to other articles. A similar problem exists with the Superman article. WesleyDodds 17:28, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I have taken the liberty of reducing the "love interests" and "character parts", by creating Supporting characters of Batman (just like previously Enemies of Batman was created. The important names still appear with wikis to most of their own articles, so all relevant content is still only a click away. I do agree with hiving off the Batman in Other Media and Batman Bibliography into another section. Dyslexic agnostic 10:47, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I've done the same for Batman in other media... I think we are getting close to the size we want for this page (I have reduced it by a third in length, and gone from 84 kb to 57 Kb). Dyslexic agnostic 11:03, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Further creation of Batman (bibliography) gets us to 53 kb; therefore, I have removed the "verylong" tag (although there is certainly more fat to be trimmed, especially under costume, equipment, etc.). I, however, think I will leave that to others more capable than myself ;-) Dyslexic agnostic 08:33, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Batcave revisions done. This brings us to 50 kb. Dyslexic agnostic 20:11, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
One more thought... putting "Batman parodies/references" into the Batman in other media subtopic (with a brief comment left behind to entice readers to seek more detail in the subtopic) would free up substantial space. Comments? Dyslexic agnostic 08:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Also, the "crossovers" section is too long and (imho) unnecessary). Comments? Dyslexic agnostic 20:16, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Been trying to revert some of the vandalism on the page (along with some rewriting to show a more NPOV). If article size is a problem, maybe deleting the rather extensive "Costume" section material pertaining to Azrael (and sticking it on his page, if needed) would help free up a bit more space? (Also pondering splitting the "evolution of the concept" section into Golden Age, Silver Age & Modern Age subsections a la the Superman page's such sections, though not sure if others would think this is a good idea or not and/or if it'd make the page size too big,though perhaps some material from a few other sections could be folded in if applicable to save space...). Anthony Dean 00:55, 7 December 2005 (UTC)
There's definitely a great deal of redundant material on the page. Would it make sense to add a 'Batman: Important Storylines' page, and basically clear everything about Year One, Killing Joke, etc except a one-line synopsis out? Simnel 23:56, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
Lesfer put the "very long" notice back up. I just reduced Batman from 84 kb to 45 kb... What more should I do? Dyslexic agnostic 23:30, 6 December 2005 (UTC)
(I suggest absorbing the Costume section into the Batsuit article)
Bill Finger gets no "official credit" for Bats? He named Bruce Wayne, suggested the scalloped cape & "whiteout" eyes, & conceived the Batcave. (He also went a bit batty naming "bat-things," it's true...) Also, any comment on Bats' rel to Rorschach? I mean, it's been suggested Bats is the real guy, & Bruce is the disguise; as he says in JLI, "Underneath, I'm hideous." (OK, he could've been joking, but--Bats, joking?) BTW, I'm N a fan, so I'm N qualified to xam the ish, just raising it. (For the record, his worst enemy? JLI; "I should never come out in the daytime.") Trekphiler 16:35, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Made some changes to the Evolution of the Concept section, specifically the last four paragraphs. Tightened up the prose in the year one paragraph, also talked a little bit more about WHY it was significant. Seemed strange to me to have a grocery list of other stories set in the year one era, but I'm new here and didn't want to delete anyone else's stuff. Same thing with the next paragraph -- it said 'Killing Joke is contriversial', then totally skipped over the contriversal part. I'm not particularly happy with the text though. Made similar revisions to the Jason Todd paragraph. -Simnel
"There is a strong -- and relatively explicitly shown -- suggestion that the Joker does this, in part, by showing Gordon pictures of his daughter being crippled and raped (Evolution of the concept)."
I have a little bit of beef with this line: I went and re-read the graphic novel and no rape was obvious. Now, I understand that perhaps showing that would be too harsh for any writer of any graphic novel to do, but I do still greatly doubt that the Joker had raped Barbara Gordon, but rather undressed her and put her in provocative positions (please take into account that some serial killers don't rape their victims, but wait until their dead, take a picture, and masturbate over their bodies).
The whole point was to turn James Gordon nutty, Barbara was just as a means of getting that response.
Also, this is the Joker we're talking about: his sexuality is very much in question because he seems asexual, shown by his lack of sexual interest in Harley Quinn, or any other woman (or man for that matter), as well as his non-sexual crimes (he goes for no particular gender, and it is only thin speculation that he has raped).
Whether his lack of sexuality is because of his obsession with the Batman, his battle with insanity, his possible surpression of homosexuality (which I doubt), or perhaps he is asexual, the idea that the Joker rapes is very unfitting to his character. He might put a person in a place where there is a high chance that person can be raped, but I doubt he'd do it himself.
I just noticed that the "N." was correctly removed from "Bruce N. Wayne" on the article. I'm not sure who originally put the "N." in the name, but I thought I should point out for posterity's sake that "Bruce N. Wayne" is a private detective cousin of Bruce Wayne after whom Batman's secret identity was named, but the Batman Bruce Wayne's middle initial—if any actually exists—has never been revealed. His full name—until a middle name or middle initial is "revealed" in the comics—should be simply "Bruce Wayne" without the N. Kaijan 05:07, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
Bruce’s IQ being at least 230 seems pretty unrealistic. While I understand Bats is most certainly a genius, plus being a fictional character that certain liberties may be taken, it seems like this figure (possibly from Wizard) is the result of exaggerated fandom. (Anyone who’s been to Batman fan message boards knows that some of his militant fanboys find him completely infallible and unable to be defeated) While I’m a huge Batman fan, I dislike it when his abilities are inflated. Wizard has been known to print inaccurate figures regarding heroes, and would like to see something close to being “official” regarding his intelligence. However, I would like to see what the rest of the WikiProject Comics community thinks before taking action in the article. (If anyone would like to talk to me about talk page policy, please feel free, as this is my first time posting in one.) Thanks. Arcanum7Arcanum7 Arcanum7
You did perfectly fine using the talk page. I think it's a good idea to simply state that Batman is of genius intelligence. The whole IQ bit, despite the controversy of IQ accuracy in the real world, is impossible to pin down unless stated by the creator. Ereinion 01:32, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think his IQ is at the top of human potential, but remember, the thing about batman is that he uses 90% of his brain unlike most people, so that'd exponenciate his potential. He is like a Sam Beckett from Quantum Leap, only usising most of his braing, most of the time and he'd be like 38, so he has like 22 yaeasr of genial thinking plus like 16 improving the art of full potential, so he also have experience at being a genius at full potencial, and the is almost like a computer, thus. And this is not a new concept, read Sherlock holmes stories, the great detective is about the same thing. But if you like human mistakes, im gonna solve 2 problems with one answer... he does make them! you see, like in this example, on top of mi mind: do you remember the Crime Doctor ep of B:TAS when he gets beaten by some stupid nurse? then there is another example of something completely the opposite, in the No Fear ep, when influenced by Scarecro's no fear gas he got just infront of an armed gang of like 5 thugs, and he started like dancing to avoid the bullets with no problem at all!! the only logical explanation (if you don't consider the first one poor writing) is that he is not perfect. he can suck! he can take Darkseid elite with a spoon, fool a hypnoticed superman with the aid of the last person you would imagine, like the penguin, a profetional skier, deadman or maybe b'wanna beast; discover that the president is an ilision created by dr. desteny, and then go back to gotham and broke his ribs fighting against some strong idiot hired by the Riddler...And that's because he is the best of the best but in the end...he's just human!! and that's why the stories keep captivating our attention!-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 08:44, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Scarecrow -- that 90% thing, from DC comics, is about Deathstroke: The Terminator, not Batman. Oh, and Dyslexic? I AM a geek, and I don't play one on TV :-)
Simnel 22:08, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Removed this line: The Batcave's utilities consist of unknown Wayne Tech technology along with Thangarian, Martian, Apokoliptan, and Kryptonian technology;"Plus the really scary crap Bruce invented" as Oliver Quenn, Green Arrow,said. Basically because, well, it's not true. The quote was made by Green Arrow during Identity Crisis about the security systems designed for the civilian homes of League members, NOT about the Batcave. Simnel 23:57, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
We must address the Earth-Two Batman history!!!!! Dyslexic agnostic 06:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
In a really short link-section, please. that's barely more important than the type of bat gas batman uses for the batmobile. Remember if we can't write about the Penguins personality is not so logical to talk about a batman nobody of the very general public (i never heard suchthing abut the earth II batman before i started reading comics, but knew well the penguin, the joker, catwoman, the riddler and even the scarecrow (from later superfrinds ep, "the fear")-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 01:54, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I see your poin and you are right, due to what is going on on the DC contynuity right now, Earth to batman might be worth a cou... a page!!! witt the intro copied here!!-- T for Trouble-maker 04:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
The gay thing is ofending to the hardcore fans of the original mythos. I'm gonna quote Seinfeld and go "not that there is anything wrong with it" but that opinion is sooo not cannonical that is out of place in a page lacking of space. But don't led that bull***t misslead you, the fact is that it's very incongruent to remove the villains and keep a hole bunch of info that fits way better with the "Comics Code Authority" article. So i decided to "be Bold" and take out the section and live a link in the "see also" section, where i think it fits better. I also think we should take out irrelevant stuff before taking out Joker or Bruce Wayne paragraphs that are so much more escential to the mythos.-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 20:57, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
People, try to get this: Batman, Wilma, the Charlie Brown gal, Robin, the smurfs and all the rest of those poor characters are not gay!!!! if so and if you are a hard core pro gay dude, which, again, "not that there is anything wrong with it"; are the crappiest symbols you could choose!!!!!! they are not even out of the closed!! they are the lousiest gays ever they are not gay enough to be gay and they are not brave enough to be symbols!!!!! Even the gay teletubbie succks!!! you have Jack McFarlane, the dudes from Queer as folks and the ones from QEFSG, the bals dude from REM, Freddie Mercury, Mr. Garrison Mr. Hat and Mr. Slave, in comics you have the Authorithy supes and bats equivalents; Maggie Sawyer, and so on!!!! they are there and we all like them (i don't care much for the ones from QEFSGuy and i haven't seen queer as folk) stop bugging Batman, that one is ours. Batman is our Michael Stipe, our Elton, our Jack; don't mess with him, he has spent more time with different ladies on his bed than time training robin, our man's man, the imaginary dude we'd like to be like. don't spoil this one for us. it is not a gay movement thing what makes you try to make batman and robin gay is pure inner primal beast of morbidness instinc, it is not real... well i guess is also because is batman's funny issue and yes that's been a great source of jokes matterial, but you have the key word there: joke Material...is funny because it could look like they were a child molestor and a gay sidekick it's not like that at all. Robin is not even that popular, you don´t think about him when you mention batman. you have to remember him. catwoman and the joker are way more popular. If people like robin is because is a medium to visualize your inner boy besides batman and how cool would it be to fight along him, to get advise from de dude going out with selina,pamela,talia,lois,shondra,silver,vicky,jokers girlfriend (i wrote it that way to make a point), barbara (the comish's, his best bud's daughter), diana, a novice, chase, tom cruise's fiance, kim baysinger, michelle pfiefer, nicole kidman (aka tom's ex), no mentioin julie and lee and even zz gabor and so on and on; and you get to make your moves on gold skinned firestar, wondergirl, batgirl, huntress and even azrae's girl; and also get to share all his toys!!! if you think you are impressing anyone by puting you stupid, morbid psycho-crap in this page and every one is gonna think you know la lot... well think again, you don't know s***t!! you don't get the robin idea at all and you don't think like a true super heroe fan! you're missing the whole point! you are neither living the fantasy nor experiency what the writers make true fans experience!! i thus (if so) petty you, because if you don't have imagination, what the point of reading comics then??...-- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 09:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is real, and it is reasonable to link it with batman, but not to dedicate a whole section to it while there isn no space for the joker, catwoman, the penguin or robin himself. It fits way better on the comics code authority article. especially since both issues afected batman an are completely real and valid but it doesn't come from the batman autentic writers or the mythos itself, it is just either an outside joke related to the batman or when seriouly taken pure morbid opinion, real, but not oficial.Is see also kind of information, not indispensable info. At trivia detail. Trivial. It doen't come from either batman authors, DC or time warner, it comes from comedians and the arcaic Comics Code Authority, where, again, it is right now. Fact that you didn't talk about. But lets move on.
I agree the space thing is about the article being readable, wikipedias help pages say so, but there are many articles that have been reduced due to people being paranoid aboit it, this one, the superman article and believe ornot hte justice league unlimited page -which is actually a short one... do you have any concrete info abut the lenght of an article as important as this one?? -- T-man, the Wise Scarecrow 22:21, 24 December 2005 (UTC) (ps: i put your updated info in the CCA page. Good work, Haiduc)
Agreed. That makes two pro pedophilic Batman. That's sad according to what i wrote before. But, remember, it was not removed, but plased in what i thik the most accurate article for the info and not without the propper link here. I propose anohter concensus with this topic: where does that section belong: in the batman page or in the ACC page. I believe you wil find my proposal very fair, since it is not censoring but placing info in the right place. Remember, pealse try reading what's been happening with the superman page before and here in the disscussion pages so that you realize this is not about sensoreship. The other dude, has said ambiguos but still very respectable stuff abuot his own preferences, so that might be clouding visions... Diferently oriented people triing to change batmans orientations, just what i first predicted this was abuot (above). DC comics created The Authority for those prefferences, there you have a row model for different prefferences...And is not like that isn't enjoyable reading for everybody, as it just happens to be, actually-- T for Trouble-maker 00:11, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
our opinions are not that different, i'm not denniing it is a real bat issue, only not sure abuot addresing it here, instead of in the CCa article. my problem as im sick and tired of repeating is more with hyerarchy and sections and article size. What issues are more important to the batman mythos. To me it shoud me mannaged more as a super hero card only incredibly expanded (like if firestorm were incredibly famous and long in history):
... and its not like the article is so different from my ideal which i wouldnt impose in other way than taking the insulting wertham. who in my opinion should have been deal with by suing him for character slander. In the end there is a reason nobody cared about that asshole. That's right people, he is an asshole and you are promoting pedophilia in batman's character-- T for Trouble-maker 01:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC) I wrote a introductory paragraph of the pedophilia issue as well as one of the Ambiguosly gay duo to cover both morbid views and comedy parodies. In this case due to the pointed missing info about more relevant stuff and the fact that the main articles are noth that bigger and proportionality is also logical... Besides i, you have to remember: 'Calling batman pedophilic is ofensive to its creators and true fans'... so the issue is woth addresing here, but not so much.-- T for Trouble-maker 01:41, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
ok done, are you happy, pappy?-- T for Trouble-maker 03:15, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
The article needs to incorporate minority viewpoints without giving them any more or less validity than other viewpoints, and there is an easily documentable and fairly common reading of Batman wherein he's gay. This information needs to be included for the article to be encyclopedic, whether certain readers find it offensive or not. Wikipedia is not in the business of censoring information. Dave 05:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)duuuuuuuuuuude, minority view points??? ok, reading is not one of you habilities, is it? there is no succh thing as batman stories and him being gay. i need you to read a couple o'things: i need you to read what the article you adding is sayin, i need you to read what i have been saying, i need you to read a new comic i've been readin for years: it's callesd Batman dunno if you ever heard of it, but is really cool, there is already a movie if u don't like that reading thing, it has drawings though; and finally i need you to read what you wrote i don't thig you are even familiar with it: anti-batpedophilia propaganda it's not it's not exactly progay, unless the minority you talk about is republican-anal retentive sick people.
It's important to realize that the issue isn't really 'Are Batman and Robin gay?' because I don't think that anyone has seriously considered that question in forty years. The issue is, 'is that question important enough to discuss in an encyclopedic article on Batman?' Considering how much effect that question had on the development of this character and comics in general, it is a disservice NOT to discuss it here.
I've reverted it back once more.
T for Trouble-maker, your edits are filled with nonsensical malarkey, severely bringing down the quality of this article. This has been a FEATURED article, yet you continue to vandalise. The object is to bring the size of this article DOWN. For the love of God, just stop. Play with some other non-vital article, improve your skills and then, when you think you've got it down, come back and edit properly. -
The Dragonmaster 05:07, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
you could put some sence into my words directly, the info is there and is good, put some shape into it if you don't like it. about the size, maybe you're the one that need the experience (it is not like is bad to be new), it's not about size in terms of memory space, it's in terms of readability, abuot not having large amounts of plane prose with no imafes, lists, tables, links (colour), sub-sections, etc. the sections i improved were lacking of qualiti and were totally plain, bald,insipid and lacking of info because of a missunderstood atempt to save space. -- T for Trouble-maker 08:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
In the Batman in other media section, it is suggested that Spawn is an Image riff on Batman. Shadowhawk, perhaps, but can anyone give a shred of proof (or even conjecture!) that Spawn takes anything from Batman other than a love of Gothic archetecture? Simnel 22:24, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
I thoght your point was interesting. According to Scot McCloud and other authors, during the eighties grim angry violent anti heroes characters were the popular thing. We'd be talking about the same era of the Teenage mutant ninja turtles...not quite the happy mutants you probably remember from the cartoons; the kingpin-bullseye-elektra-frank miller Dare devil, which is not that different from spawn either; the return of the Dark knight, also by Frank Miller; Hob gobblin, Demo-gobblin, Venom and then Maximum Carnage; Rob Liefeld; x claremont; and then finall todd mcfarlane: te man who first gave pider positions to spiderman, created venom, draw part of batman:year two, where batman fights aganit crazy old timmer vigilante: the grim reaper... and finally him and jim lee created their own company, Image comics. So it is natural that anti-heroe spawn himself is a spawned result of all that context. So he does have batman infuence. It's sometimes called "taking elements" a common practice in literature.-- T for Trouble-maker 02:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
While I thank you for trying, T, I'm pretty sure there's not a whole lot you can teach me about either literature or comic book history. Nothing you wrote suggests any kind of link between Spawn and Batman. What we're looking for here is some kind of direct link -- either some main thematic element I'm missing that Spawn takes from Batman, or a statement by McFarlane stating that Batman was a primary incluence on Spawn. Simnel 05:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
and remember you need to quote that link to keep you statement in the batman in other media section. or else it coul be erased-- T for Trouble-maker 22:24, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Okay -- I did a quick web search, and I couldn't find any reference showing McFarlane explicitly suggesting Batman was an inspiration for Spawn. I'm going to remove the suggestion that he was from the main page. Simnel 09:29, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
I apologize for being a dick. Although I swear I always work on the main page with good faith and love for the characters. The only thing I ask is that if you don’t like the info I add, don’t erase it, but put sense and quotes into my words, there is always several source for everything I write, and they are never hard to find (jlwatchtower, world’s finest, tv.com, the comics or episodes themselves, etc.). I have never erased info, if you think about it; so edit my info but don’t just censure me… I’m also a middle point fan.-- T for Trouble-maker 21:12, 26 December 2005 (UTC) My point are this:
i'm gonna hate myself for doing this, but in the middle point spitit...-- T for Trouble-maker 21:32, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Check it out. I followed Hrich your advise. (according to myself, though)Keep in mind this observations (personal, of course, but since I realize my words usually occupy to much space in this page, so every point i need to make in the future to defend my pocition i'm gonna add it here in the list):
When i undo something i sometimes try to do it a litle diferent so that the people that disagrees like it... i suck for that why don't you try doing the same for me, maybe ou could be better for that. Thanks for the kinda second chance-- T for Trouble-maker 22:02, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
Given Wikipedia:Verifiability I would ask that this text from the section Homosexual interpretations be sourced, please:
Could someone also clarify who/what is meant by the term "studio" in the above text. Thanks in advance, Hiding talk 16:56, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
-- T for Trouble-maker 10:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see you have tackled this section too... you kept all of my edits from this morning (yah!), but cut through the crap that was there before. But what about the pretty pictures, including the one I added of Bat-girl? Thoughts on the revisions? (Maybe I'll use the images on her page, or on the SOTI page...) [[User:Dyslexic agnostic|Dyslexic
I have copyedited to remove any point of view and removed some unsourced comments. I also removed the images, since the text captions accompanying these images were most definitely point of view. Please do not add such captions to images unless they are quotes from a cited source, not an editor's own words. Please see Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Cite sources for guidance. (batman what have you dond indeed is from wizard-- T for Trouble-maker 12:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC))
The caption to Image:Batman panel - Robin what have I done to you.jpg read The placement of Batman's reference to Robin at the end of a series of sexual innuendos renders what by itself would be a reasonable parental reaction into a comical punch line with homoerotic overtones. Unless this is a sourced quote it constitutes original research.
The caption to Image:Batgirlbettebatmite.jpg read Bat-girl introduced to prove Batman and Robin not gay. Which most definitely is point of view, and should not be presented as fact.
I also removed the following sections of text: Despite Wertham and "The Code," the theme of ambiguous sexuality continued to be played upon by both the studios and the readers until the late sixties, when changing public morality necessitated an official split between Batman and any suggestion of sexuality with his young friend. Denny O'Neil separated the two heroes in 1969 by sending Dick Grayson to college, and female characters were eventually brought in as more "proper foils" to the main hero.
This again seems to read as point of view, and since no source has been forthcoming I have removed it.
I removed the following line, The outcry particularly affected Batman comics for a number of years from the section which continues; the characters of Batwoman (in 1956) and Bat-Girl (in 1961) were introduced to "prove" that Batman and Robin were not gay, and the stories took on a campier, lighter feel. I can source the second statement, I cannot source the removed line.
I also rewrote this section, Their interpretation is seconded by Burt Ward, who, in his autobiographical Boy Wonder: My Life in Tights agrees that the characters could be interpreted as lovers, while the show's double entendres and lavish camp help make the case persuasive. to remove point of view assertions, presenting a more neutral and balanced version, Burt Ward has also remarked upon this possible interpretation, in his autobiographical Boy Wonder: My Life in Tights noting that the characters could be interpreted as lovers, with the show's double entendres and lavish camp also offering ambiguous interpretation..
I would also request a source for this text:Wertham became aware of this alternative reading through his conversations with fans of Batman in the fifties, who brought the comic book to his attention as an example of the idealization of a "homosexual lifestyle.", which I believe must be easy given the quotation in the last line. My understanding is that Wertham went looking for such readings, not that they were brought to his attention. Hiding talk 09:44, 28 December 2005 (UTC)agnostic]] 09:37, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Hiding, you might want to note that there has been a LOT of jackassery on this page, vandalism and edit wars aplenty, in the last few weeks. I personally didn't see anything from you when I checked my watchlist last night; tonight, I saw "Well, I asked for sourcing, didn't get anything so made changes." Don't be surprised if your stuff got reverted.
That being said -- good show, while I don't agree with 100% of your changes, they all seem reasonable and well-thought out. Hopefully we'll get this article back to where it deserves to be a feature again.
Simnel 23:32, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Point taken re the POV comments under the images. But I believe the Bat-girl image is suitable, with the captioon removed. Dyslexic agnostic 09:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Panels from World's Finest #289 Panels from World's Finest #289 Dyslexic agnostic 10:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
For now I updated my points (and delated most of the old ones above to save space):