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Shame to see 'savage and barbarous nations' in the description of the Tribes in the Rhine area. I dont know where to begin attacking that statement!! The Batavi were very Germanic and not Celtic. Archaeological and Historical evidence shows a group with a solid, well defined social structure, that could continue being used under Roman Overlordship. The many Roman artifacts in this area can be found in Nijmegan (mostly 2nd cent as the AD69 revolt distroyed eariler Roman bulidings). The name Batavi was also used extensivly to encorage dutch soldgers fighting with spain, to remind them of a Free Holland. I have written 'The Causes of the Batavian Revolt AD69-70' as my dissertation subject for my archaeology degree a few years back-i beleve its the only work on this subject written in English.-- User:Elguid 6:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
So the Cattans ( Chatti) were Germans, and the Batavians were part of the Chatti who now lived somewhere else because of a feud. I have not found a single source that says that they were Celts subdued by the Chatti.
As to everyone living in Gaul being Celtic and not Germanic:-
OK, swimming troops from Cassius Dio:
Perhaps, though, you got this from the part-translation, part-commentary Roman Britain, by Edward Conybeare (1903), here http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_rombrit_ch3.htm which seems to use rather patchy and ancient (Cymbeline, rather than Cynobellinus) translations, and switches between Ptolemy and Dio Cassius and perhaps other authors without clearly stating where he gets which information.
Maybe someone has, and can read, the Greek original to be sure? Its not online, seemingly. A useful comparison of source manuscripts is http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/dio_cassius.htm
Dont trust any Roman writer when they say Celtic because as im sure you know, Celtic is the Greek word for 'non greek' (Keotli)this was adopted by the Romans to mean non Roman (therefore uncivilised). In the case of the Batavi, they may be called celtic because they were under the spheres of Roman influence. and was easyer for the Roman reading public to understand. they where a germanic tribe, there is no doubt of that archaeologically speaking. See Roymans (many) Carrol 2001, Dyson 1975, Westerwield (many)Enklevoort (many)and me! of course. they probably migrated from a larger tribe (sorry i dont rember the nmame) that where in this area around 200 B.C. after the revolt we can see a rapid Romanisation of this tribe-hense the use of their horsemanship in Britain and use in the Praetorian. Interestingly the leader of the Auxillarys in Briton was the same general (cerials) that suppesessed their revolt.
Interesting to note that football was mentioned. i was at NEC Nijmegan to watch them a while back and i saw a few Batavii Flags.
i strongly suggest you READ the books ive pointed out to you before contiuing this discussion.
What happens to the Batavians? What is their history after the rebelion?
Questions about the words "Germania" and "Gallia". I think that this definitions were created artificially by the Romans without knowing anything of the Peoples living here, if they spoke Celtic or Germanic. The name Chariovaldi is clearly Germanic: Hariwald, "the one who rules the army", but I 'm not sure of Batavia's Germanic etymology. The word for Island (ēġland in OE. ) is probably *aujō from *aʒwjō (Cf. English Etymology, T.F. Hoad, OUP ) and it did not change in ouwe in Old Low German but in Old High German. People here are supposed to speak a Low German language. In Low German, we find (It depends on the "dialects" ) og, och, o and ei....Moreover this word is always latinized in Augia (Cf. Oye-plage, Ile d'Yeu, the Channel Islands ). We should have something like *Bataugia. It seems to be more the Indo-European root av- meaning "stream, water" that exists in Germanic: OE ea, Gothic aχwa, but also in slavic (river Ava in Ukraine ) and in Celtic ( river Aff (former Ava ) in Britanny, city of Eu (Auvae, Awae fluvium ) in Normandy. Latin aqua. Why did the batavi give a Celtic name to their cities: Bataviadurum or Noviomagus? Was Celtic fashionable or the language of commerce and trade before the Roman domination? Nortmannus ( talk) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Rex_Germanus, you've editted Batavians a while ago. This sentence "The Batavians became regarded as the eponymous ancestors of the Dutch people." became "The Batavians falsely became regarded as the eponymous ancestors of the Dutch people.", can you explain why you added falsely? Even with the Migration Period, as far as I know there is no mentioning of the Belgae or Batavii moving out of the area. Thanks. ShotokanTuning 08:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Another small edition, if the Batavians hadn't (succesfully) rebelled against the Romans, and would have remained the swampdwelling fish eaters they were for most of their history, it's highly likely all but a few Dutch people would be aware of their existence. Rex 00:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I came here with the same remark Batavian < Chatti < Franks, but that point has already been made. I still think the text can be clarified. At least it could be noted that the besides Batavians (Bataven) more frankish tribes lived in the area. The south of Limburg + adjacent Belgian and German provinces ( Aachen region, but also the Caroligians probably orginated in what now is the Liege province) is a Frankish heartland even. Also, in the list of Dutch tribes I mis Saxons, though later conquered by the Franks, they were most definitely not either Franks or Frisians. And of course the Celts weren't probably all immediately buried, but were absorbed into the populace, so a Celtic bloodline is probably also still there. 88.159.72.36 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
In the Batavian_rebellion piece are several inaccuracies: this batavians article seems to be more generally monitored and hopefully someone with more of an understanding of the rebellion than me can take a look at it; perhaps it should be merged back into this article?
I've searched for references on why the Batavians didn't have to pay taxes but I haven't found any and if anyone can reference material on why they were exempt I think that would make a valuable contribution in our understanding of the Roman Empire. They could field keen horsemen with locally bred horses; and the Betuwe area of the Rhine delta at the time flooded annually so the alluvium must have made the land a dependable source of crops, horses and cattle for the legions of Germania_Inferior. It might have paid not to tax them.
In reference to the discussion on whether the Batavians are falsely seen as ancestors I think very interesting also is the discussion about the influence on Dutch literature, propaganda and nationalism of the Batavians ref [1] (in Dutch). To call the republic formed after the French revolutionary invasion the 'Bataafse Republiek' is a fine example of both early European nationalism and propaganda. Wikimam 19:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, but the reference to Drusus building a fortress is ambigous, and I don't know which Drusus it should resolve to. None of the articles that are listed in the disambiguation page tells about fortress building on a bank of the Waal, or building anything at all in Germania. Rootmoose ( talk) 23:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is this article called "Batavians"? The normal Latin name for this tribe was the "Batavi" and this should be used. Batavians is confusing, as it could refer to the inhabitants of South Netherlands in later ages. EraNavigator ( talk) 01:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Generally agreed, yes; but ancient tribal names are usually in their original form ( Helvetii, Boii, Suebi, Heruli, Hermunduri, etc. etc.). In that last link, the Batavians sort of stand out negatively. Trigaranus ( talk) 19:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
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The article includes two different derivations and meanings for the word Batavi. (1) From the opening section; no source:— The tribal name, probably a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water"), refers to the region's fertility, today known as the fruitbasket of the Netherlands (the Betuwe). (2) From the Location section; no source:— The Batavi (the name is believed to derive from a West Germanic root also present in "better" (possibly meaning "superior men")) moved into the Betuwe in the late 1st century BC. Citations are needed for these derivations and meanings. In the meantime, I am pleased to add another version to the discussion. (3) From An American Doctor's Odyssey by Victor G. Heiser (New York: Norton, 1936, p. 462):— The 17th century Dutch colonists "clung intrepidly to the home they had erected" in Batavia, which "ironically enough means 'Fair Meadows'" despite the heat and the insect life of the tidal flats. Dr. Heiser's report from Java is rather close to "good island." PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 04:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I thought it would be interesting to get a Dutch point of view on this question. In the Dutch-language article "Betuwe" the traditional Dutch interpretation (goede grond, "good ground, land") is reiterated. This is similar in nature ("land" but not "island") to source (1) as found in the English-language articles "Batavi (Germanic tribe)" and "Betuwe." Ironically, this interpretation (goede grond) is rejected in the Dutch-language article in favor of another explanation; that is, the name may derive from the Batavians; that is, "Batavia." Here is the paragraph in question from the Dutch-language article:—
In summary, then, the name of the Dutch region, Betuwe, derived from the Latin name of that region, Batavia, which itself had Germanic roots. Does that mean that "Betuwe" actually means "Batavia"? The Dutch seem to distinguish Betuwe, a modern region, from Batavia, an historic region. Taking on the role of devil's advocate for the nonce, if Betuwe is simply a relatively modern derivation of Batavia, then I wonder whether the correct root word is actually awjō; that is, perhaps awjō is simply folk etymology caused by a back-formation from Betuwe. PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 23:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a better map. The one currently in the article shows the distribution of ancient tribes over present-day topography, including polders etc. While this is okay to get an idea of where they lived in modern terms, the Frisians really didn't occupy Flevoland, for instance. If anyone has such a map, please add it to the article. Radioflux ( talk) 11:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed the word "eponymous" from the sentence, "... the Batavians came to be regarded as their eponymous ancestors." While it is true that the Dutch came to regard the ancient Batavians as their ancestors, the ancestors were not eponymous.
The adjective eponymous means "of, relating to, or being the person or thing for whom or which something is named; of, relating to, or being an eponym." An eponym is "one for whom or which something is or is believed to be named." More explicitly, as noted in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, an eponym is "The person, real or mythical, from whom a family, race, city, or nation is supposed to have taken its name (as, Hellen is the eponym of the Hellenes)."
An inherent aspect of an eponym is the relationship of the names. Thus, the Batavi cannot be the eponym of the Dutch (or Netherlanders), as the names are not related. That said, the Batavi can be the eponym of the 17th- and subsequent-century "Batavians," as the Northern Netherlanders (Dutch) once called themselves. However, no groundwork was laid in the article for such a statement. PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 17:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
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Shame to see 'savage and barbarous nations' in the description of the Tribes in the Rhine area. I dont know where to begin attacking that statement!! The Batavi were very Germanic and not Celtic. Archaeological and Historical evidence shows a group with a solid, well defined social structure, that could continue being used under Roman Overlordship. The many Roman artifacts in this area can be found in Nijmegan (mostly 2nd cent as the AD69 revolt distroyed eariler Roman bulidings). The name Batavi was also used extensivly to encorage dutch soldgers fighting with spain, to remind them of a Free Holland. I have written 'The Causes of the Batavian Revolt AD69-70' as my dissertation subject for my archaeology degree a few years back-i beleve its the only work on this subject written in English.-- User:Elguid 6:08, 5 May 2005 (UTC)
So the Cattans ( Chatti) were Germans, and the Batavians were part of the Chatti who now lived somewhere else because of a feud. I have not found a single source that says that they were Celts subdued by the Chatti.
As to everyone living in Gaul being Celtic and not Germanic:-
OK, swimming troops from Cassius Dio:
Perhaps, though, you got this from the part-translation, part-commentary Roman Britain, by Edward Conybeare (1903), here http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_rombrit_ch3.htm which seems to use rather patchy and ancient (Cymbeline, rather than Cynobellinus) translations, and switches between Ptolemy and Dio Cassius and perhaps other authors without clearly stating where he gets which information.
Maybe someone has, and can read, the Greek original to be sure? Its not online, seemingly. A useful comparison of source manuscripts is http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/manuscripts/dio_cassius.htm
Dont trust any Roman writer when they say Celtic because as im sure you know, Celtic is the Greek word for 'non greek' (Keotli)this was adopted by the Romans to mean non Roman (therefore uncivilised). In the case of the Batavi, they may be called celtic because they were under the spheres of Roman influence. and was easyer for the Roman reading public to understand. they where a germanic tribe, there is no doubt of that archaeologically speaking. See Roymans (many) Carrol 2001, Dyson 1975, Westerwield (many)Enklevoort (many)and me! of course. they probably migrated from a larger tribe (sorry i dont rember the nmame) that where in this area around 200 B.C. after the revolt we can see a rapid Romanisation of this tribe-hense the use of their horsemanship in Britain and use in the Praetorian. Interestingly the leader of the Auxillarys in Briton was the same general (cerials) that suppesessed their revolt.
Interesting to note that football was mentioned. i was at NEC Nijmegan to watch them a while back and i saw a few Batavii Flags.
i strongly suggest you READ the books ive pointed out to you before contiuing this discussion.
What happens to the Batavians? What is their history after the rebelion?
Questions about the words "Germania" and "Gallia". I think that this definitions were created artificially by the Romans without knowing anything of the Peoples living here, if they spoke Celtic or Germanic. The name Chariovaldi is clearly Germanic: Hariwald, "the one who rules the army", but I 'm not sure of Batavia's Germanic etymology. The word for Island (ēġland in OE. ) is probably *aujō from *aʒwjō (Cf. English Etymology, T.F. Hoad, OUP ) and it did not change in ouwe in Old Low German but in Old High German. People here are supposed to speak a Low German language. In Low German, we find (It depends on the "dialects" ) og, och, o and ei....Moreover this word is always latinized in Augia (Cf. Oye-plage, Ile d'Yeu, the Channel Islands ). We should have something like *Bataugia. It seems to be more the Indo-European root av- meaning "stream, water" that exists in Germanic: OE ea, Gothic aχwa, but also in slavic (river Ava in Ukraine ) and in Celtic ( river Aff (former Ava ) in Britanny, city of Eu (Auvae, Awae fluvium ) in Normandy. Latin aqua. Why did the batavi give a Celtic name to their cities: Bataviadurum or Noviomagus? Was Celtic fashionable or the language of commerce and trade before the Roman domination? Nortmannus ( talk) 08:13, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
Hi Rex_Germanus, you've editted Batavians a while ago. This sentence "The Batavians became regarded as the eponymous ancestors of the Dutch people." became "The Batavians falsely became regarded as the eponymous ancestors of the Dutch people.", can you explain why you added falsely? Even with the Migration Period, as far as I know there is no mentioning of the Belgae or Batavii moving out of the area. Thanks. ShotokanTuning 08:31, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Another small edition, if the Batavians hadn't (succesfully) rebelled against the Romans, and would have remained the swampdwelling fish eaters they were for most of their history, it's highly likely all but a few Dutch people would be aware of their existence. Rex 00:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I came here with the same remark Batavian < Chatti < Franks, but that point has already been made. I still think the text can be clarified. At least it could be noted that the besides Batavians (Bataven) more frankish tribes lived in the area. The south of Limburg + adjacent Belgian and German provinces ( Aachen region, but also the Caroligians probably orginated in what now is the Liege province) is a Frankish heartland even. Also, in the list of Dutch tribes I mis Saxons, though later conquered by the Franks, they were most definitely not either Franks or Frisians. And of course the Celts weren't probably all immediately buried, but were absorbed into the populace, so a Celtic bloodline is probably also still there. 88.159.72.36 09:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
In the Batavian_rebellion piece are several inaccuracies: this batavians article seems to be more generally monitored and hopefully someone with more of an understanding of the rebellion than me can take a look at it; perhaps it should be merged back into this article?
I've searched for references on why the Batavians didn't have to pay taxes but I haven't found any and if anyone can reference material on why they were exempt I think that would make a valuable contribution in our understanding of the Roman Empire. They could field keen horsemen with locally bred horses; and the Betuwe area of the Rhine delta at the time flooded annually so the alluvium must have made the land a dependable source of crops, horses and cattle for the legions of Germania_Inferior. It might have paid not to tax them.
In reference to the discussion on whether the Batavians are falsely seen as ancestors I think very interesting also is the discussion about the influence on Dutch literature, propaganda and nationalism of the Batavians ref [1] (in Dutch). To call the republic formed after the French revolutionary invasion the 'Bataafse Republiek' is a fine example of both early European nationalism and propaganda. Wikimam 19:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgive my ignorance, but the reference to Drusus building a fortress is ambigous, and I don't know which Drusus it should resolve to. None of the articles that are listed in the disambiguation page tells about fortress building on a bank of the Waal, or building anything at all in Germania. Rootmoose ( talk) 23:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Why is this article called "Batavians"? The normal Latin name for this tribe was the "Batavi" and this should be used. Batavians is confusing, as it could refer to the inhabitants of South Netherlands in later ages. EraNavigator ( talk) 01:40, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
Generally agreed, yes; but ancient tribal names are usually in their original form ( Helvetii, Boii, Suebi, Heruli, Hermunduri, etc. etc.). In that last link, the Batavians sort of stand out negatively. Trigaranus ( talk) 19:12, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
An image used in this article,
File:Continental.coast.150AD.Germanic.peoples.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
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Speedy deletions at commons tend to take longer than they do on Wikipedia, so there is no rush to respond. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (
commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs.
A further notification will be placed when/if the image is deleted. This notification is provided by a Bot, currently under trial -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 21:51, 21 May 2011 (UTC) |
The article includes two different derivations and meanings for the word Batavi. (1) From the opening section; no source:— The tribal name, probably a derivation from batawjō ("good island", from Germanic bat- "good, excellent" and awjō "island, land near water"), refers to the region's fertility, today known as the fruitbasket of the Netherlands (the Betuwe). (2) From the Location section; no source:— The Batavi (the name is believed to derive from a West Germanic root also present in "better" (possibly meaning "superior men")) moved into the Betuwe in the late 1st century BC. Citations are needed for these derivations and meanings. In the meantime, I am pleased to add another version to the discussion. (3) From An American Doctor's Odyssey by Victor G. Heiser (New York: Norton, 1936, p. 462):— The 17th century Dutch colonists "clung intrepidly to the home they had erected" in Batavia, which "ironically enough means 'Fair Meadows'" despite the heat and the insect life of the tidal flats. Dr. Heiser's report from Java is rather close to "good island." PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 04:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
I thought it would be interesting to get a Dutch point of view on this question. In the Dutch-language article "Betuwe" the traditional Dutch interpretation (goede grond, "good ground, land") is reiterated. This is similar in nature ("land" but not "island") to source (1) as found in the English-language articles "Batavi (Germanic tribe)" and "Betuwe." Ironically, this interpretation (goede grond) is rejected in the Dutch-language article in favor of another explanation; that is, the name may derive from the Batavians; that is, "Batavia." Here is the paragraph in question from the Dutch-language article:—
In summary, then, the name of the Dutch region, Betuwe, derived from the Latin name of that region, Batavia, which itself had Germanic roots. Does that mean that "Betuwe" actually means "Batavia"? The Dutch seem to distinguish Betuwe, a modern region, from Batavia, an historic region. Taking on the role of devil's advocate for the nonce, if Betuwe is simply a relatively modern derivation of Batavia, then I wonder whether the correct root word is actually awjō; that is, perhaps awjō is simply folk etymology caused by a back-formation from Betuwe. PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 23:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)
It would be nice to have a better map. The one currently in the article shows the distribution of ancient tribes over present-day topography, including polders etc. While this is okay to get an idea of where they lived in modern terms, the Frisians really didn't occupy Flevoland, for instance. If anyone has such a map, please add it to the article. Radioflux ( talk) 11:05, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I removed the word "eponymous" from the sentence, "... the Batavians came to be regarded as their eponymous ancestors." While it is true that the Dutch came to regard the ancient Batavians as their ancestors, the ancestors were not eponymous.
The adjective eponymous means "of, relating to, or being the person or thing for whom or which something is named; of, relating to, or being an eponym." An eponym is "one for whom or which something is or is believed to be named." More explicitly, as noted in Webster's Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, Second Edition, an eponym is "The person, real or mythical, from whom a family, race, city, or nation is supposed to have taken its name (as, Hellen is the eponym of the Hellenes)."
An inherent aspect of an eponym is the relationship of the names. Thus, the Batavi cannot be the eponym of the Dutch (or Netherlanders), as the names are not related. That said, the Batavi can be the eponym of the 17th- and subsequent-century "Batavians," as the Northern Netherlanders (Dutch) once called themselves. However, no groundwork was laid in the article for such a statement. PlaysInPeoria ( talk) 17:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)