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The emphasis on critiques of Bastyr by mainstream media is exaggerated and overly prominent as for one thing many of Bastyr's programs involve traditional and vocational occupations, like midwifery, and others like dietetics, that do not implicate that dispute. Moreover, even the stock dispute with the AMA and related entities is overblown as much of naturopathic medicine has been accepted in the official medical community. In that regard it is telling that the article refers to acupuncture, a state licensed profession, as bogus, a ridiculous assertion that undermines the credibility of the article that implicates Western cultural chauvinism. So while this dispute certainly merits discussion in a more more nuanced way in the body of the text, headlining it at the top of the article is unfair and casts this worthy institution in a false light that borders on being defamatory. Tom Cod ( talk) 16:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Use of terms like scam and quackery regarding something suggests that those involved in it are dishonest and not acting in good faith instead of say being mistaken, in error, misguided etc. Use of this kind of inflammatory rhetoric comes across as overly doctrinaire and mean spirited, doing little to advance a civil discussion. I noticed that Wikepedia articles on accupuncture and chiropractic, which appear to be edited in part by some of the same people as herein, contains some of these same epithets. But I know people who are involved in these professions who are honest and decent people. So I question whether this attitude really conforms with Wikipedia norms or not. Can't imagine the New York Times writing even a critical minded article about these topics in such a fashion; it would be interesting to see what Britannica's articles on such topics are like. Tom Cod ( talk) 02:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Your chiropractic friends may be honest and decent people, but that doesn't change the fact that there is NO evidence based medicine that indicates that the practice of chiropractic is anything more than a dangerous and expensive way to shear spinal vertebral arteries. It is not recognized by the AMA as a legitimate medical practice. This is why no chiropractor gets admitting or treating privileges at any hospital in the US, unlike real MDs and DOs, or even DPTs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.217.84 ( talk) 02:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Currently we state that Bastyr University has "low admission standards" based on " Why 'Naturopathic Medicine' is an Oxymoron". The source discusses admission standards when it writes:
However, the article is only discussing "naturopathic schools" in general, mentioning only two by name. Admission standards are being drawn from the GPA, but the GPA for Bastyr is not known here, nor mentioned in the article. I don't think we can make the statement that Bastyr has low admission standards based on general comments about naturopathic schools without a source that specifically refers to the standards at Bastyr. - Bilby ( talk) 11:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
The general, rule with notable alumni is that we only include people who have articles on WP, although there are room for exceptions. Both Britt Marie Hermes has an article, and while Peter J. D'Adamo does not, it does redirect to a topic which discusses him. Neither Kim Kelly, Michael T. Murray nor Michael Uzick have articles.
Is this sufficient for all three to override the lack of articles? I think it might be with Michael Murray, but I'm hard pressed to see it for the other two. - Bilby ( talk) 04:45, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I think it's legitimate to ask to what degree these alumni are associated with Bastyr. In the case of Kelly it's explicit in RS (Gorski makes the point that even the "best" naturopathic school thus turns out a graduate who caused death through the use of a dodgy treatment). I'm as yet undecided on Uzick ... yes he's undoubtedly an alumnus but to what degree is the Bastyr connection relevant? What do others think? Alexbrn ( talk) 08:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
A few accounts were recently blocked for using multiple accounts ( WP:SOCK). Since they have also posted on individual user talk pages, here are a few things I would like to clarify. Please click on the various blue links to understand how Wikipedia works. The messages alleged administrator abuse, but the only administrative actions have been to protect the article from disruption ( WP:PROTECT) and to block accounts that used editing privileges illegitimately (editing not being a right, SOCK is already linked above, but also see WP:FREESPEECH). Adding material is an independent editing event to deleting critical material. WP:NPOV is about faithfully representing sources that are considered reliable ( WP:RS, also see WP:RSP and WP:RSN that can be used to evaluate the reliability of a source), not about presenting a WP:FALSEBALANCE. In relation to Quackwatch, there is consensus that it is reliable but that it also should be attributed ( WP:ATTRIBUTE). Moreover, some edits attempted to mislead readers by attributing to Quackwatch statements from other independent sources. In any case, per the Wikipedia WP:FRINGE, WP:PSCI and WP:YESPOV policies, articles should be clear about it. Also see WP:PROMOTION: some of the recently proposed material was clearly promotional and has no place in the encyclopedia. Per WP:COI, editors with a conflict of interest (and this is obvious by recent edits from IP addresses registered to the school) must clearly disclose ( WP:DISCLOSE) it and should ideally propose changes and seek WP:CONSENSUS on this talk page rather than edit the article. The WP:STANDARDOFFER essay has good tips on how to proceed after being blocked. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 08:03, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
While I believe it is entirely appropriate to include legitimate critiques of the school's curriculum in the article, I believe placing that material in the lede gives undue weight to that material. I believe the material would be better placed in the "Academics" section of the article. Pinging @ YourPrincessLeia: and @ Cordless Larry: who have recently disagreed about this matter. All other comments welcome, of course. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Bastyr University article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The following Wikipedia contributors may be personally or professionally connected to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include
conflict of interest,
autobiography, and
neutral point of view. Edits made by the below users were last checked for neutrality on 23-01-2017 by Delta13C.
|
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
complementary and alternative medicine, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
The emphasis on critiques of Bastyr by mainstream media is exaggerated and overly prominent as for one thing many of Bastyr's programs involve traditional and vocational occupations, like midwifery, and others like dietetics, that do not implicate that dispute. Moreover, even the stock dispute with the AMA and related entities is overblown as much of naturopathic medicine has been accepted in the official medical community. In that regard it is telling that the article refers to acupuncture, a state licensed profession, as bogus, a ridiculous assertion that undermines the credibility of the article that implicates Western cultural chauvinism. So while this dispute certainly merits discussion in a more more nuanced way in the body of the text, headlining it at the top of the article is unfair and casts this worthy institution in a false light that borders on being defamatory. Tom Cod ( talk) 16:53, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
Use of terms like scam and quackery regarding something suggests that those involved in it are dishonest and not acting in good faith instead of say being mistaken, in error, misguided etc. Use of this kind of inflammatory rhetoric comes across as overly doctrinaire and mean spirited, doing little to advance a civil discussion. I noticed that Wikepedia articles on accupuncture and chiropractic, which appear to be edited in part by some of the same people as herein, contains some of these same epithets. But I know people who are involved in these professions who are honest and decent people. So I question whether this attitude really conforms with Wikipedia norms or not. Can't imagine the New York Times writing even a critical minded article about these topics in such a fashion; it would be interesting to see what Britannica's articles on such topics are like. Tom Cod ( talk) 02:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Your chiropractic friends may be honest and decent people, but that doesn't change the fact that there is NO evidence based medicine that indicates that the practice of chiropractic is anything more than a dangerous and expensive way to shear spinal vertebral arteries. It is not recognized by the AMA as a legitimate medical practice. This is why no chiropractor gets admitting or treating privileges at any hospital in the US, unlike real MDs and DOs, or even DPTs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.5.217.84 ( talk) 02:41, 6 March 2019 (UTC)
Currently we state that Bastyr University has "low admission standards" based on " Why 'Naturopathic Medicine' is an Oxymoron". The source discusses admission standards when it writes:
However, the article is only discussing "naturopathic schools" in general, mentioning only two by name. Admission standards are being drawn from the GPA, but the GPA for Bastyr is not known here, nor mentioned in the article. I don't think we can make the statement that Bastyr has low admission standards based on general comments about naturopathic schools without a source that specifically refers to the standards at Bastyr. - Bilby ( talk) 11:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
The general, rule with notable alumni is that we only include people who have articles on WP, although there are room for exceptions. Both Britt Marie Hermes has an article, and while Peter J. D'Adamo does not, it does redirect to a topic which discusses him. Neither Kim Kelly, Michael T. Murray nor Michael Uzick have articles.
Is this sufficient for all three to override the lack of articles? I think it might be with Michael Murray, but I'm hard pressed to see it for the other two. - Bilby ( talk) 04:45, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
I think it's legitimate to ask to what degree these alumni are associated with Bastyr. In the case of Kelly it's explicit in RS (Gorski makes the point that even the "best" naturopathic school thus turns out a graduate who caused death through the use of a dodgy treatment). I'm as yet undecided on Uzick ... yes he's undoubtedly an alumnus but to what degree is the Bastyr connection relevant? What do others think? Alexbrn ( talk) 08:10, 24 September 2019 (UTC)
A few accounts were recently blocked for using multiple accounts ( WP:SOCK). Since they have also posted on individual user talk pages, here are a few things I would like to clarify. Please click on the various blue links to understand how Wikipedia works. The messages alleged administrator abuse, but the only administrative actions have been to protect the article from disruption ( WP:PROTECT) and to block accounts that used editing privileges illegitimately (editing not being a right, SOCK is already linked above, but also see WP:FREESPEECH). Adding material is an independent editing event to deleting critical material. WP:NPOV is about faithfully representing sources that are considered reliable ( WP:RS, also see WP:RSP and WP:RSN that can be used to evaluate the reliability of a source), not about presenting a WP:FALSEBALANCE. In relation to Quackwatch, there is consensus that it is reliable but that it also should be attributed ( WP:ATTRIBUTE). Moreover, some edits attempted to mislead readers by attributing to Quackwatch statements from other independent sources. In any case, per the Wikipedia WP:FRINGE, WP:PSCI and WP:YESPOV policies, articles should be clear about it. Also see WP:PROMOTION: some of the recently proposed material was clearly promotional and has no place in the encyclopedia. Per WP:COI, editors with a conflict of interest (and this is obvious by recent edits from IP addresses registered to the school) must clearly disclose ( WP:DISCLOSE) it and should ideally propose changes and seek WP:CONSENSUS on this talk page rather than edit the article. The WP:STANDARDOFFER essay has good tips on how to proceed after being blocked. Thanks, — Paleo Neonate – 08:03, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
While I believe it is entirely appropriate to include legitimate critiques of the school's curriculum in the article, I believe placing that material in the lede gives undue weight to that material. I believe the material would be better placed in the "Academics" section of the article. Pinging @ YourPrincessLeia: and @ Cordless Larry: who have recently disagreed about this matter. All other comments welcome, of course. WikiDan61 ChatMe! ReadMe!! 13:01, 10 May 2022 (UTC)