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Note: I tried to list the Ayyubid rulers in the shorter versions of their names, rather than the full versions. In some cases, though, especially in the minor rulers at the end, I wasn't sure which name they would actually be known by, so I guessed based on the way the rulers I was more familiar with are named.
Also, I can't find a list of the Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh (Northern Iraq). Any help on that would be good. john 04:57 May 2, 2003 (UTC)
Well, it's three years later, and still no list of Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh. Sigh. john k 14:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to use the Columbia Encyclopedia for a reference to his Kurdish ancestry? That's just some other encyclopedia. They have the same sources we do and they don't go into any further detail. (In my mind it's not even the type of thing that needs a reference, apparently only Turks believe he wasn't Kurdish...) Adam Bishop 16:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Ibn Asir who was a historian at the same time of Ayyubid dynasty confirms that this family were of kurdish origin.About names majority of muslims had arabic names, and Turanshah is persian name which composed of two persian word Turan and Shah and actually this names Turanshah, Gilanshah and Kermanshah ,Iranshah were common in Iran at era, It just reamins one question why a kurdish tribal leader chose such a name for his son because kurdish names were different.Another point is that uncle of salaheddin was Shirkuh which is a classical kurdish name and even nowadays are used between kurds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.107.53.148 ( talk) 06:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
"Shirkoh" is not a kurdish name, but an iranian name as origin
I replied to this ridiculous comment on the
talk page of Shrikuh.
SohrabeDelavar 14:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we Assume the Saladin forces flag appeared on this movie as the real flag of Ayyubids ? has anyone seen the film ? Ammar ( Talk - Don't Talk) 17:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Saladin is a Turkish warrior and statesman.
First the descriptin of nation changes often by time. Sometimes the description of a nation means people that live in a country, sometimes means people that believe in same religeon, sometimes means people that has same origin, sometimes means people that has same culture. In the time of Saladin, nation meant people that believe in same religion that is Islam.
The reality of Saladin was Turkish was accepted by the world untill 16. century but later 1-2 man said Saladin was Kurdish to create a nation in the region of the Middle East, but that was not real, that was only a form distorted of a thought. That thought was said after 350 years of Saladin was dead without a real prof.
If we need to examine the origin of Saladin then we have to make that with scientific eye. Then we have to consider all the conditions and realities of that term. Genetic come from father half and mother half. That means %50 from father, %50 from mother. Saladin’s mother was Turkish, Saladin’ s father’s mother was Turkish, too. That was prooved by the scientific circle. And The wife of Saladin was Turkish, too. That means if we dont know the origin of Saladin’s father’s father or if we know Saladin’s father father was Kurdish or Arabian, That never can’t change the reality of Saladin was Turkish. Saladin’s father’s mother was Turkish means Saladin’s father was half Turkish (%50) and Saladin’s mother was Turkish too means Saladin’s was carrying Turkish blood more than %75, and Saladin’s wife was Turkish too means Saladin’s sons were carrying Turkish blood more than %87,5 and that was very high level. Those means Ayyubids were TURKISH, SALADIN WAS TURKISH.
Saladin accepted an eagle the symbol of his state, and eagle means the symbol of the Turkish states. Saladin was a commander of Seljuks that was a Turkish state, and Saladin speakt Turkish.
Saladin’ s brother’ s names was Tuğtekin, Şahinşah, Böri, Turanşah that is ancient Turkish names. Does a Kurdish family give the Turkish names to their children ?
AS A RESULT, SALADIN WAS A TURKISH WARRIER AND STATESMAN.
SALADIN WAS TURKISH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.240.20.198 ( talk) 21:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There Should be a Template for Arab Empire, and Ayyubid dynasty part of it, sorry to dissapoint my fellow friends Kurds but this Dynasty had nothing to do with Kurds other then Salahdin being born their, he grew up in Syria and lived his entire life as an Arab rather then Kurd, i doubt he even knew how to speak Kurdish, anyway, this article needs to be fixed to be included as an Arab Dynasty rather then a Kurdish one, i mean, for gods sake Kurdistan wasnt even part of the country's boundries... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 12:39, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
as for saladin being turkish... it really made me read the entire post, i found it enything but true, i found it ammusing tho, if anyones interested to know...
anyways, Saladin is more of an Arab then a turk, he is a Kurd, but that doesnt neccesary mean that the Ayyubid Empire was a Kurdish one, its capital was Cairo, and had no control over northern Iraq, Iraq or north western Iran... it didnt include the Kurdish homeland as we know it today, or as they knew it back then... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 12:45, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
NOTE:Makes no sense to say arab dynasty of Kurdish origin, mutually exclusice ethnicities, have amended — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.235.2 ( talk) 02:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs a section on the Mongols, specifically the capture of Syria in 1260, a major turning point in the destruction of the dynasty. -- El on ka 10:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I just brushed up a little grammar mistake I spotted. Not much, but 'every little helps'. -- Huss4in ( talk) 20:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks good. Plenty of references to reliable works, scope seems good. I'm not sure about ref #1, which ideally either needs to be tidied up with more details or replaced (I can't access it myself). At current #55 and #56 are duplicates, but it's not a widespread problem. (If you could find another map or two for different times, all the better.) It certainly looks like a good contender. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 12:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
See page 27 for the full passage. If you are unable to do so, I'll provide it for you. The Ayyubids absolutely were Kurds. The article makes that clear as most, if not all, reliable sources agree that they were a Kurdish family. However, this does not mean they weren't "Turkicized" early on (before Saladin) which isn't surprising because of Turkic dominance (Seljuks, Zengids and Artukids) in that area before the rise of the Ayyubids. Anyhow, I used a load of sources in this article and none of them contest that they were Turkicized and all agree that they were obviously Kurds. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 04:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your hard work on the article. I believe however the sources should be of the highest quality. Britannica is not but the Encyclopedia of Islam is. The source should be WP:RS. Vladimir Minorsky was a top world orientalist and I think we have to work with WP:weight. Note you have a sentence which says Ayyubids even before taking power were Turkicized. If you look at the article's wikilink (Turkicized), we get: "Turkification (Turkish: Türkleştirme) is a term used to describe a process of cultural change in which something or someone who is not a Turk becomes one, voluntarily" The text you have has said: "The progenitor of the Ayyubid dynasty was Najm ad-Din Ayyub bin Shadhi. He belonged to a Kurdish tribe whose ancestors settled in northern Armenia and had become thoroughly Turkicized"
This sentence is self contradictory or unclear. When were they Turkicized? If Ayyubids were Kurds, then they rose much later than Shadhi whom your sentence claims was Turkicized. So I am not sure if you know the definition, but a person that is Turkicized is basically a Turk in language, culture and etc., except lineage. Much like Egyptians who were Arabicized although the majority are probably descendants of ancient Egyptians rather than Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. Going back to this article, I also refer you to the Iranica article on this issue as well: [3] I think both Encyclopedia of Islam and Iranica provide a good model to follow. Note a major contradiction with what the book you brought suggest:
“ | level of his culture, the matter is equally ambiguous. The Ayyubids ruled a predominantly Arabic-speaking region, and many of their princes became very proficient in Arabic letters and in the religious sciences. However, we see many signs of a continuing connection with their homeland and with Iranian culture generally. Thus, it is clear that al-Malek al-ʿĀdel and his son al-Malek al-Moʿaẓẓam ʿĪsā (d. 624/1227) still spoke Kurdish or even New Persian. And al-Moʿaẓẓam’s particular interest in Iran is seen in his patronage of two works (in Arabic) by Fatḥ b. ʿAlī Bondārī (q.v.): one, a translation of the Šāh-nāma (ed. ʿA. Aʿẓam, Cairo, 1350/1931); the second, the standard abridgment of ʿEmād-al-dīn Kāteb Eṣfahānī’s history of the Saljuqs (ed. M. Th. Houtsma, Recueil de textes relatifs à l’histoire des Seldjoucides, Leiden, 1886-1902, II). Still, there is no evidence of any widespread translation movement among the Ayyubids, or of any general devotion to the Persian classics.
It is true, however, that the personal influence of Iranian scholars was very much felt in the religious sciences. Dominique Sourdel has shown that almost one-third of the madrasa professors in Aleppo between about A.D. 1150 and 1250 were of Kurdish or Iranian origin. The same figures would not hold for Damascus, let alone Egypt, but their presence in these places was far from negligible. However, most of these men had come to Syria not under the Kurdish Ayyubids but under the Turkish Zangids, particularly Nūr-al-dīn Maḥmūd, in the third quarter of the sixth/twelfth century (D. Sourdel, “Les professeurs de madrasa à Alep aux XIIe-XIIIe siècles d’après Ibn Šaddād,” Bulletin d’études orientales 13, 1949-51, pp. 85-115).
In spite of the importance of Kurdish recruitment for the Zangid armies, one should not suppose that the Kurds were ever more than a minority of these forces. And though Kurdish troops become more visible than ever before in the reign of Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, they certainly remained a minority, constituting at the highest possible estimate one-third of his forces. The Kurds in Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s armies were sometimes recruited and placed as individuals, but they are more commonly found as members of tribally organized units, of which the sources name four: the Hakkārīya (certainly the largest and most powerful), the Mehrānīya, the Ḥomaydīya, and the Zarzārīya (see, e.g., Abū Šāma, Ketāb al-Rawżatayn II, pp. 144, 179). After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s death, however, such tribal units are rarely recorded, and Kurdish soldiers appear either as individuals or under the collective appellation “al-Akrād.” After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, in fact, the Kurds seem to have become a far less prominent part of the Ayyubid military establishment; their amirs are less often members of the political elite, which becomes increasingly Turkish.
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This is much more detailed article from a very highly respected scholar. It contradicts the Turkicized bit. Because it shows Ayyubids spoke Kurdish (thus not Turkicized), had a large contingent of Kurdish troops and etc. I have also mentioned Vladimir Minorsky. If you want an example of Turkicized dynasty, that is the [{Safavids]]. But the Ayyubids were Kurdish in culture and ethnicity and did not adopt Turkish language and became Turkish voluntarily as the article Turkicized mentions. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Note also the Iranica article is written by Stephen Humphreys who is a top expert on the Ayyubids [4]. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
This is bullshit.Kurdish creating fake history.Cause this idiot peoples new nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.243.7.76 ( talk) 13:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I would warn certain "new" editors against cherry picking when adding information. The Cambridge History of Iran source calls the Hahdbani Kurds(p 33) and Saladin a Kurd(p 33). -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 23:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Saladin founded the Ayyubid dynasty(1171-1250) and AFTER Nur al-din's death in 1174, declared himself sultan. Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East, Volume 1, by Jamie Stokes, p383.
Therefore, it was NOT Sultan Saladin founding the Ayyubid dypnasty, which is historically inaccurate, but Saladin as a chief advisor to Nur al-din. --
Kansas Bear (
talk) 19:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
According to Will Durant, "...the Fatimid dynasty came to a quiet end. Saladin made himself governor instead of vizier, and acknowledged Nur-ud-din as his soveriegn." --"The Age of Faith" by Will Durant, p.311. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
As per Al Ameer son's edit
[5] and summary "The source actually supports that specific material in the article", I would like to see the quote from Hourani's book, "A History of the Arab peoples", that supports the sentence, "Arabic was the language of high culture and of the urban population, but other native languages continued to be used in some rural communities throughout the Ayyubid territories".
Hourani's book page 96 states, "In the same way, while Arabic was the language of high culture and much of the urban population, other languages still survived from the period before the coming of the Muslim conquerors".
I see no connection to the Ayyubids, much less any mention of them. --
Kansas Bear (
talk) 03:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Should this article be renamed Ayyubid Sultanate? The Ayyubids were not just a dynasty, they established a sultanate recognized by the caliph and were thus a state similar to their successors, the Mamluk Sultanate. This article originally was just a list of Ayyubid sultans and emirs so the name "Ayyubid dynasty" made more sense back then. I moved this list years ago to List of Ayyubid rulers. The current article has since become about the Ayyubid state (its history, economy, government, culture, architectural legacy, etc) so wouldn't it be more logical to move this article to "Ayyubid Sultanate"? -- Al Ameer ( talk) 06:23, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Hey, Ayyubid dynasty is muslim dynasty with kurdish origin! It's a muslim kurdish state in Medieval period! So, official language is kurdish, after that, (because many arabic tribes were in Middle-East and North Africa) arabic!-- Titan971118 ( talk) 20:01, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see no mention of the Jewish population of Egypt, which was large, important and was until 1204 led by the philosopher and theologian Moses Maimonides, who was also chief physician to the court of the Vizier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Not2late ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Al Ameer son
Taken from Mimihitam's talk page after the latter removed this from their talk page.
Hi
Mimihitam. I see you've been making a bunch of changes to the
Ayyubid dynasty article. It's good to see people engaging with these topics, but I'm concerned that several of your edits were pretty hasty and quite destructive as a result. From what I can see:
You deleted a statement about the Arabized culture of the Ayyubid court with the rationale that is was "completely irrelevant to the article" and unsourced, despite that fact that the sentence credited this view to a scholar whose work is cited in a linked source in the article (just not in this sentence). A quick check would have shown that the deleted text correctly presented this view. Some experience with the article would reveal that we regularly have to deal with partisan vandals claiming that Ayyubids, especially Saladin, had a wholly Kurdish or wholly Arab identity. So this text is very relevant and easily sourced.
You deleted a bunch of text on education as being "not in source", when in fact every statement is supported by the two sources given.
You deleted a sourced sentence about the Ayyubid conquest of the Hadramaut as being irrelevant to the Syria and Lebanon section (correct) rather than just relocate the information to the Arabian peninsula section.
You deleted a sentence about the North African campaign that the Ayyubids carried out at the same time as fighting the Third Crusade.
Some of your other small changes were beneficial, but the sheer amount of sourced and relevant information you have deleted in the process is alarming. This article has been carefully honed over time by many dedicated editors including Al Ameer son and Kansas Bear. I'd really like to get your explanation for why you felt these cuts were appropriate, and hopefully a commitment to be much more careful with future edits. Many thanks. Rupert Clayton ( talk) 17:29, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
My response:
To voice Rupert Clayton's concerns, this paragraph:
I see no reason to remove this entire paragraph despite the source being unviewable. The information is neither speculation nor outlandish. The removal of the reference, being unverifiable, would have been more appropriate and tagging the paragraph.
The Citadel dramatically embodies the defensive priorities of the era, but for Salah al-Din, safeguarding the stronghold of faith was just as important. For this reason, when Sunni orthodoxy was restored to Egypt, ten madrasas were established during his reign and twenty-five in total during the whole Ayyubid period...
@ Al Ameer son: Well I've read the whole article and I think it's quite ready for FA nomination. The only remaining question for me would be the map. The map in the article is very well sourced, but this one seems to be more consistent with the content (since it is explicitly written that the Ayyubids conquered Kairouan). Which one is more accurate? Mimihitam ( talk) 21:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Hello, it is quite misleading to state that the Ayyubids are Kurdish. There are tons of sources that state that they are Arabs. I am personally an Ayybuid and I belong to the family of Salahi, which is descendant of Saladin. We have never ever claimed to be Kurdish at all and we belong to the tribe of Banu Murrah, which is an Arab tribe. The only historian who states that he is Kurdish was Al-Masoudi, who himself was against the Arabs. Everyother historian states that he was Arab. Even the Ayybuids themselves stated they were not Kurdish. The rest of the Western historians claiming that he was Kurd is for propaganda use and publicize a non existing "Kurdistan". We are Arabs and we will always remain to be, this is what my grandfather has told us, this is what my ancestors have been telling each of their descendants, and this is what our family tree says. Ayyubids are of Banu Murrah and are Arabs. So please, as an Ayyubid, I find this quite disrespectful and misleading. We are not propaganda material. If this encyclopedia is trying to be authentic they should remove "Kurdish". Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:C400:149D:A14E:3FE4:C9A3:982D ( talk) 06:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Kurdish identity is related to the unique Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish core element seems to be a vague connection to Indo-Aryan Mittani with a Hurrian Substratum, otherwise they would have Persianized already, especially with the strong Iranian linguistic influence that started hitting Kurdistan as early as the 8th century BC & continued until the Sassanid empire. In Addition to the obvious Iranian influx, some Semitic people got Kurdified (Israelites, Assyrians & later Arabian regional rulers) became Kurdified which makes them Kurds, just like the rest of the people who got Kurdified (also Turanids, Caucasian people & pretty much anybody who entered Kurdistan got Kurdified). If it helps many Kurds eventually Arabized in Syria, Egypt & Yemen, should we go yank those people who identify as Arab today and claim they are Kurds? Egapempleh ( talk) 09:42, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
I just want to note I had a great laugh from the nonsense written by the Arab/Turkish nationalist who wrote the piece titled "Ayyubids are Arabs". Thank you for the laugh! 2001:1C03:708:C100:CDAA:1D54:219C:75A7 ( talk) 12:21, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Replaced previous Ayyubid misleading political rhetoric, with neutral terms.
Kharijites never existed in Yemen: the Mahdids were a fundamental militants Sunni but not Kharijite, Ayyubids had to label them as such to justify attacking a fellow Sunni dynasty.
Shia Banu Karam tribe Al Karam Al Zurayi was the father of (Al-Abbas & Almsaod) a small family from the Yam branch of Hamdan, the two branches of the small family led a loose Hamdanid Confederacy, that was complemented at times & challenged at other times by the Hatim Hamdanid emirs of Sana'a. The Ayyubid use of vague Shia instead of Ismaili is to avoid angering the still heavily Ismaili Egypt back home. Egapempleh ( talk) 09:55, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Within the intro and elsewhere, for most readers I think it would be more effective and educational to say something like this:
Saladin's large sultanate ultimately ranged from Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Sudan to Syria and northern Iraq, and it included western Arabia (for instance, Mecca and Medina) southward all the way to Yemen.
Dr.Bastedo ( talk) 22:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Hello,
Will Wikipedia please do something about the blatant de-Kurdification of the Ayyubid Dynasty by contemporary Arab chauvinists and Turkish nationalists? The section "culture and language" is very politicized, and it mainly serves to destruct the dynasty's Kurdishness, even though their Kurdishness has been firmly established for 900 years.
Some of the things included in that section to claim Arabization of the Ayyubids are:
"The Ayyubids had Arab surnames..."
So? Millions of Kurds today have Arab surnames, but DO NOT, and never have, identified as Arabs. This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have seen, and I am astonished wikipedia allows these kinds of arguments in an important entry like this one.
Furthermore, the sole source cited to claim Arabization of the Ayyubids of the late 12th century (in other words; Saladin himself) is a single contemporary "expert", who just happens to be an Arab nationalist. How are sources like this allowed on Wikipedia? These claims have major rammifications and are literally historic revisionism. To make such claims, multiple primary sources from that time must be a REQUIREMENT.
Here are some impartial primary and secondary sources that solidify the Ayyubid's Kurdishness. Including the "late 12th century Ayyubids", which that section claims to have been "properly Arabized".
"Among the free-born amirs the Kurds would seem the most dependent on Saladin's success for the progress of their own fortunes. He too was a Kurd, after all, and under his aegis they might hope for borader opportunities in rank, estates, and political influence than they could outherwise expect in the predominantly Turkish dynastties of the age. Conversely his regime might well ave appeared to them a shield which could protect them against the ethnocentrism and racial prejudice of the Turks.
That ethnic consciousness and friction did exist in Saladin's reign there can be no doubt; Saladin obtained the Fatimid vizierate partly on the strength of it. After Shirkuh's death, Saladin's close associate Diya' al-Din 'Isa al-Hakkari (a Kurd) visited the leaders of each faction contending for power to try to win them over to the election of Saladin, and to one Kurdish amir (Qutb al-Din Khusrau b. al-Talal) he used the following argument: "Verily, everybody is for Saladin except you and al-Yaruqi [a Turkmen amir from the north Syrian Yürük tribe]. What is needed now, above all, is an understanding between you and Saladin, especially because of his Kurdish origin, so that the command does not go from him to the Turks."
It is worth noting that within a few months of Saladin's elevation, all the Turkish amirs had returned to Syria save those in the late Shirkuh's Asadiyya corps. There is more than this: Saladin was at least twice subjected to taunts about his origins by the Turkish soldiers of Mosul, and in one passage of his al-Barq al-Shami 'Imad al-Din indulges in a lenghty attack on the Kurdish troops of the Artukids. Treachery on the part of a group of Kurds among its defenders enabled Saladin to take Sinjar in 578/1182.
Most indicative of all is the letter submitted to Saladin by his amirs as he was trying to prepare the defense of Jerusalem against the expected attack of Richard Coeur-de-Lion: "If you wish us to remain [here], then either you or one of your family should be present with us, so that we may rally together around him. Otherwise, the Kurds will not be subjected to the Turks, nor the Turks to the Kurds."
If the Kurds expected Saladin's patronage and protection, they had no reason to be disappointed. That he recruited them in considerable numbers appears not only from the numerous Kurdish amirs who appear in the chronicles, but also from the fact that in his later armies at least (the period 583/1187-588/1192) there were independently organized contingents from four tribes – the Hakkaris, the Humaydis, the Zarzaris, and the Mihranis. Undoubtedly Saladin's relations with his Kurdish amirs were strengthened by common race and the broad role affairs which he gave them."
"From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260" by R. Stephen Humphreys.
Note that these are not Humphrey's opinions, but that all this information is based on primary sources from that time. This is how the Ayyubids thought and felt themselves. Their Kurdishness clearly played an important, in fact decisive, role in their lives. Were it not for their ethnic Kurdish consciousness, they would have never risen to power in the first place. Also note that these events are about the late 12th century, which the Arabs on here try to have Arabized.
In addition, here is another interesting source that proves the Ayyubids' ethnic consciousness. They had Yazidi Kurd (non-muslim Kurdish) allies and allowed those Kurds to spread their faith (again, a non-Islamic religion; a Kurdish religion) throughout the Kurdish Ayyubid Empire:
"Years later, Sheikh Hasan, the grandson of Sheikh ‘Adi’s nephew, expanded Yazidi influence throughout the Muslim world during the 13th century CE. According to Yazidi oral tradition, Hasan wrote the religious text Kitab al-Jilwa li-Arbab al-Khalwa, which put Sheikh ‘Adi’s ideas into written form. During Hasan’s reign, Yazidis served as soldiers in Saladin’s Muslim army during the Crusades and served as ambassadors to the Ayyubid Sultanate. Yazidism itself spread throughout the Kurdish community, and many converted. The Yazidis immigrated to large swathes of the Muslim world."
If the Ayyubids truly were "culturally Arabized", than explain their favouritism to Kurds and to Yazidism, which is a Kurdish religion – it couldn't get more Kurdish culture than that.
Lastly, according to Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, a 12th century Kurdish scholar of great note, personal friend of Saladin, and a Kurd like Saladin, Saladin most trusted counsellors and bravest warriors were Kurds – he did not trust other ethnicities to this position. In fact, Arabs were moslty used as footsoldiers (not even cavalry) and there is very few evidence of Arabs having been given any kind of preferential treatment. In fact, most local Arab rulers were removed from leadership positions and replaced with Kurds.
I hope wikipedia will do something about the blatant historic revisionism on this page. These primary sources also prove that Turks were racists towards Saladin himself, so I hope this will quiet the Turkish nationalists with their incredible nonsense and pathetic attempts at appropriating Saladin. Your ancestors literally disrespected him, and you want to continue that tradition by stealing him from the Kurds? Weak.
2A02:A458:A594:1:E089:E683:5605:3235 ( talk) 11:48, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Anoter note: why is the Ayyubid Dynasty removed from the Kurdish portal? There used to be a sidebar at the top-right of the page with a Kurdish sun and below it other subjects related to Kurdish people and history. Why was it removed? And will someone please include it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:E089:E683:5605:3235 ( talk) 11:50, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
We can not use the primary sources which you provided. Per policy on Primary,_secondary_and_tertiary_sources:
The sources I provided are actually exactly what you want; secondary sources based on primary sources. The primary source being Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, a close friend of Saladin, and the secondary source being R. Stephen Humphrey's "From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260". Are you telling me the experiences and words of someone who witnessed Saladin, and a neutral (non-Arab, non-Kurd, non-Turkish) researcher of note's analysis (secondary source) of the main and oldest biography (the primary source) are not accepted, but a single Arab source that destructs the Ayyubid's Kurdishness is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:8415:BDE9:5A52:28CA ( talk) 10:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Again, the secondary source is From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260" by R. Stephen Humphreys. Which is based on the primary source Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, who is the greatest authority on Saladin/Ayyubids. Almost everything we know about Saladin comes from the biography he wrote in that period. If these sources are not accepted, than you can pretty much delete most wiki's relating Saladin/Ayyubids because most secondary sources are based on Ibn Shaddad's works, an authority in the field
I fully expect the ridiculous part about the Ayyubids having been "firmly Arabized" to be removed because it could not be farther from the truth per the authoritative sources provided
2A02:A458:A594:1:2DD8:4364:B99D:4D4 ( talk) 01:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:8415:BDE9:5A52:28CA ( talk) 10:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Here is some additional information and sources that prove Arabs and Arab culture/identity had VERY LITTLE to do with Saladin and the Ayyubid Dynasty in general:
And to summarize my previous points which I backed with secondary sources:
Please tell me again how the single most authoritative source on Saladin's life, namely one of his companions who wrote the first biography on Saladin and other Ayyubid works, and multiple reliable and accredited impartial (non-Arabic, non-Turkish, non-Kurdish) secondary sources are overridden by a single (nationalist) Arab source? This is blatant appropriation and historic revisionism and Wikipedia is tolerating it!
2A02:A458:A594:1:5844:624D:240A:A78A ( talk) 18:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
You do realize Ayyubid Sultans denied any kurdish ancestry? Jasmkssnksskskskskz ( talk) 19:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Al Ameer son: Hey what do you think about Humphreys statement in the Ayyubids entry in Iranica? [6] He states that according to Minorsky the family "might" have been Kurds of Arab origins. At the moment, the article does not fully reflect this, or do you think its WP:UNDUE weight? I'm not fully aware of the entire modern-day academic consensus i.e. narrative, other than that they are considered to be Muslims of Kurdish origins, so I thought I should contact you.
"The Ayyubids traced their ancestry back to Šāḏī, a notable of the Kurdo-Armenian town of Dvin (Ar. Dabīl) in the first quarter of the sixth/twelfth century. Ebn Ḵallekān [Beirut, I, pp. 255-56, tr. de Slane, p. 243] identifies him as belonging “to one of the most eminent and respectable families of Duwîn” (men ahl Dowīn wa men abnāʾ aʿyānehā wa’l-moʿtabarīn behā). Šāḏī’s father is commonly called Marwān, but nothing whatever is known about him. It does seem clear, however, that Šāḏī was a member of the Rawādīya section of the powerful Haḏbānīya tribe, and that the Rawādīya were the dominant Kurdish group in the Dvin district. It is quite evident that the progenitor of the Ayyubids was no simple pastoralist, but a member of the sedentary political-military elite of a marginal but very complex region. Once the Ayyubids were ensconced in power, some of them sponsored genealogies showing that they were not Kurds, but rather of noble Arab descent, stemming from the Morra b. ʿAwf—or even from the Banū Omayya: On one level, such genealogies are obviously fictions. However, Minorsky (Studies in Caucasian History, pp. 114-16, 123, 128-30) argues that the Rawādīya Kurds should perhaps be connected to the descendants of the Arab general Rawwād Azdī, who was governor of Tabrīz ca. 200/815. These men, having become Kurdicized, emerge in the late fourth/tenth century as the paramount clan among the powerful Haḏbānīya tribe in Azerbaijan, whence one branch moved to take up residence in the district of Dvin at some point in the eleventh century. If Minorsky’s speculations are sound, then the fictitious Arab genealogies of the Ayyubids not only contain a kernel of truth but preserve an authentic folk memory."
- LouisAragon ( talk) 01:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
A user ( D4rkeRR9) who has previously made multiple undiscussed page moves elsewhere (see Talk:Almoravid dynasty and other examples at Idrisid dynasty, French Protectorate in Morocco, and List of wars involving the State of Palestine, etc), has just moved this page without discussion. The term "sultanate" is not inaccurate for the state Saladin created, but I haven't worked on this page much so I'm not sure how well it matches the full topic as it is presented here. Either way, I would invite editors to express whether or not they approve of the name change. If not, it should be reverted. R Prazeres ( talk) 21:44, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Rawadiya were Arabic origin not kurdish . Also dynasty were Turkized people. Add this
Tursenian (
talk) 12:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock of
User:HistoryOfTurkic
The article gives the area of the empire as 3,750,000 sq km in 1190 and 2,500,000 sq km in 1200. Thinking this unlikely, looking at the size of modern Egypt and Saudi Arabia compared to the map provided, I decided to use the borders shown in the map and sketch them out on Google Maps. Using those borders yields an area of a little over 1,600,000 sq km, less than half of the size the empire apparently was just 3 years earlier. I suspect those larger sizes must be including a great deal of empty desert over which the Ayubbids exercised no meaningful control. Certainly my sketching of the borders on Google Maps was rough, but not so rough as to account for a missing 2,150,000 sq km - approximately the size of modern Saudi Arabia. Interestingly the article that is the source for the area claims ( http://jwsr.pitt.edu/ojs/jwsr/article/view/369/381, see Table 1, page 223) gives an area of 2 million square kilometres in 1190 - much closer to the result I got using the map in the article. Based on all this I am quite certain the Ayubbid Empire was never remotely close to 2.5 million, let alone 3.75 millon. I think a range of 1.5-2 million seems likely and given even the article's own source supports 2 million, I think it should be edited to reflect that figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:7102:AD01:B508:F356:CE81:ECC1 ( talk) 04:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
When it comes to the origins of the Ayyubids, whose better to ask than the Ayyubids themselves?
In his book Al-Fawaid, the Ayyubid prince of Damascus and Saladin's grandnephew Hassn bin Daud addressed his family's origins, According to Prince Hassan his father and grandfather before him both agreed that the Ayyubid dynasty is an Arab dynasty descended from Banu Murrah tribe. He further asserted that his entire family denies any Kurdish ancestry. Jasmkssnksskskskskz ( talk) 20:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
In order to prove that he is Kurdish, 4 sources are included, and most of them are unqualified and unclear, Bosworth's book states that he is Turkified. Other sources proving that he is Kurdish should be included. 176.216.90.225 ( talk) 14:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The date of establishment is 1171, not 1174. Artaxius58 34 ( talk) 16:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
? Artaxius58 34 ( talk) 17:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
It says that the state was founded in 1171, so how does it become a sovereign state from 1170 to 1260? should be corrected. ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 06:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it should be 1171 in the "Sovereign State" Section Mihrdat21 ( talk) 18:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Shajar al-durr was a Mamluk Sultan, not an Ayyubid Mamluks were in Egypt for a very short time, then Ayyubid rule came again
Saladin 1174–1193 Al-Aziz 1193–1198 Al-Mansur 1198–1200 Al-Adil I 1200–1218 Al-Kamil 1218–1238 Al-Adil II 1238–1240 As-Salih Ayyub 1240–1249 Al-Muazzam Turanshah 1249-1250 Al-Ashraf Musa 1250-1254 ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
1249-1250 Should Be Al Magnificent Turanshah Instead of Shajar al-durr ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Magnificent = Muazzam ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I should have noticed this earlier when I made this revert, but this edit made me realize it: the "Common languages" section of the infobox is listing languages according to what the cited sources say Saladin spoke, but this article is not about Saladin so these sources are not actually verifying what's supposed to be there. The list is probably misleading and/or incomplete as a result. Do we have sources relating instead to the status of languages in the relevant territories at the time? R Prazeres ( talk) 21:02, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
This raises a broader issue concerning the article: is it about the dynasty, as the title implies, or the Ayyubid state? I believe there is more than sufficient information to warrant separate articles, with this one continuing to be mainly about the state and a new one concerning the dynasty/family itself. This question should be dealt with in a separate thread, but as far as language is concerned, if we are speaking of the Ayyubid state: Arabic was the language of government, religion (at least of Islam) and high culture, as well as the Ayyubid rulers; Kurdish was the mother tongue of at least the first generation of Ayyubids, a good part of their forces, and of course in Kurdish-speaking regions in Anatolia/Upper Mesopotamia under Ayyubid suzerainty; Turkish was the language of many and later most of the core troops of the state; besides these, there were other communities across the empire which continued to use their own spoken, written, or liturgical languages—but to what degree all these languages should be listed in the infobox should probably be limited to the most common. Al Ameer ( talk) 03:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Ahh shit here we go again.I alright said link of book [ [7]].Wiki common language in table say Kurdish spoke per France1998 in 84.page.But France 1998 page 84 say "Saladin,the great commander,was a Kurd who probably spoke Turkish to his commander".So Saladin was Kurdish but spoke Turkish.Ok?Could i add Turkish to table with France1998 refference? 5.229.101.196 ( talk) 22:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
I decided to employ free variation of roughly equal frequency, with attentiveness to section headings, in order to get a better NPOV presentation. Using only "Israel" or only "Palestine" has a political connotation and that decision brings a non-political article into a political domain. If you use free variation that accusation can't be levied and does a significant amount of work to bring back the NPOV and the fairness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.98.136 ( talk) 05:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
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The
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Note: I tried to list the Ayyubid rulers in the shorter versions of their names, rather than the full versions. In some cases, though, especially in the minor rulers at the end, I wasn't sure which name they would actually be known by, so I guessed based on the way the rulers I was more familiar with are named.
Also, I can't find a list of the Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh (Northern Iraq). Any help on that would be good. john 04:57 May 2, 2003 (UTC)
Well, it's three years later, and still no list of Ayyubid rulers of the Jezireh. Sigh. john k 14:30, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to use the Columbia Encyclopedia for a reference to his Kurdish ancestry? That's just some other encyclopedia. They have the same sources we do and they don't go into any further detail. (In my mind it's not even the type of thing that needs a reference, apparently only Turks believe he wasn't Kurdish...) Adam Bishop 16:24, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
Ibn Asir who was a historian at the same time of Ayyubid dynasty confirms that this family were of kurdish origin.About names majority of muslims had arabic names, and Turanshah is persian name which composed of two persian word Turan and Shah and actually this names Turanshah, Gilanshah and Kermanshah ,Iranshah were common in Iran at era, It just reamins one question why a kurdish tribal leader chose such a name for his son because kurdish names were different.Another point is that uncle of salaheddin was Shirkuh which is a classical kurdish name and even nowadays are used between kurds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.107.53.148 ( talk) 06:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
"Shirkoh" is not a kurdish name, but an iranian name as origin
I replied to this ridiculous comment on the
talk page of Shrikuh.
SohrabeDelavar 14:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
Can we Assume the Saladin forces flag appeared on this movie as the real flag of Ayyubids ? has anyone seen the film ? Ammar ( Talk - Don't Talk) 17:18, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Saladin is a Turkish warrior and statesman.
First the descriptin of nation changes often by time. Sometimes the description of a nation means people that live in a country, sometimes means people that believe in same religeon, sometimes means people that has same origin, sometimes means people that has same culture. In the time of Saladin, nation meant people that believe in same religion that is Islam.
The reality of Saladin was Turkish was accepted by the world untill 16. century but later 1-2 man said Saladin was Kurdish to create a nation in the region of the Middle East, but that was not real, that was only a form distorted of a thought. That thought was said after 350 years of Saladin was dead without a real prof.
If we need to examine the origin of Saladin then we have to make that with scientific eye. Then we have to consider all the conditions and realities of that term. Genetic come from father half and mother half. That means %50 from father, %50 from mother. Saladin’s mother was Turkish, Saladin’ s father’s mother was Turkish, too. That was prooved by the scientific circle. And The wife of Saladin was Turkish, too. That means if we dont know the origin of Saladin’s father’s father or if we know Saladin’s father father was Kurdish or Arabian, That never can’t change the reality of Saladin was Turkish. Saladin’s father’s mother was Turkish means Saladin’s father was half Turkish (%50) and Saladin’s mother was Turkish too means Saladin’s was carrying Turkish blood more than %75, and Saladin’s wife was Turkish too means Saladin’s sons were carrying Turkish blood more than %87,5 and that was very high level. Those means Ayyubids were TURKISH, SALADIN WAS TURKISH.
Saladin accepted an eagle the symbol of his state, and eagle means the symbol of the Turkish states. Saladin was a commander of Seljuks that was a Turkish state, and Saladin speakt Turkish.
Saladin’ s brother’ s names was Tuğtekin, Şahinşah, Böri, Turanşah that is ancient Turkish names. Does a Kurdish family give the Turkish names to their children ?
AS A RESULT, SALADIN WAS A TURKISH WARRIER AND STATESMAN.
SALADIN WAS TURKISH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.240.20.198 ( talk) 21:16, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
There Should be a Template for Arab Empire, and Ayyubid dynasty part of it, sorry to dissapoint my fellow friends Kurds but this Dynasty had nothing to do with Kurds other then Salahdin being born their, he grew up in Syria and lived his entire life as an Arab rather then Kurd, i doubt he even knew how to speak Kurdish, anyway, this article needs to be fixed to be included as an Arab Dynasty rather then a Kurdish one, i mean, for gods sake Kurdistan wasnt even part of the country's boundries... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 12:39, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
as for saladin being turkish... it really made me read the entire post, i found it enything but true, i found it ammusing tho, if anyones interested to know...
anyways, Saladin is more of an Arab then a turk, he is a Kurd, but that doesnt neccesary mean that the Ayyubid Empire was a Kurdish one, its capital was Cairo, and had no control over northern Iraq, Iraq or north western Iran... it didnt include the Kurdish homeland as we know it today, or as they knew it back then... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League ( talk • contribs) 12:45, August 23, 2007 (UTC).
NOTE:Makes no sense to say arab dynasty of Kurdish origin, mutually exclusice ethnicities, have amended — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.235.2 ( talk) 02:35, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs a section on the Mongols, specifically the capture of Syria in 1260, a major turning point in the destruction of the dynasty. -- El on ka 10:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I just brushed up a little grammar mistake I spotted. Not much, but 'every little helps'. -- Huss4in ( talk) 20:06, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks good. Plenty of references to reliable works, scope seems good. I'm not sure about ref #1, which ideally either needs to be tidied up with more details or replaced (I can't access it myself). At current #55 and #56 are duplicates, but it's not a widespread problem. (If you could find another map or two for different times, all the better.) It certainly looks like a good contender. - Jarry1250 [ humorous – discuss ] 12:57, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
See page 27 for the full passage. If you are unable to do so, I'll provide it for you. The Ayyubids absolutely were Kurds. The article makes that clear as most, if not all, reliable sources agree that they were a Kurdish family. However, this does not mean they weren't "Turkicized" early on (before Saladin) which isn't surprising because of Turkic dominance (Seljuks, Zengids and Artukids) in that area before the rise of the Ayyubids. Anyhow, I used a load of sources in this article and none of them contest that they were Turkicized and all agree that they were obviously Kurds. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 04:04, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your hard work on the article. I believe however the sources should be of the highest quality. Britannica is not but the Encyclopedia of Islam is. The source should be WP:RS. Vladimir Minorsky was a top world orientalist and I think we have to work with WP:weight. Note you have a sentence which says Ayyubids even before taking power were Turkicized. If you look at the article's wikilink (Turkicized), we get: "Turkification (Turkish: Türkleştirme) is a term used to describe a process of cultural change in which something or someone who is not a Turk becomes one, voluntarily" The text you have has said: "The progenitor of the Ayyubid dynasty was Najm ad-Din Ayyub bin Shadhi. He belonged to a Kurdish tribe whose ancestors settled in northern Armenia and had become thoroughly Turkicized"
This sentence is self contradictory or unclear. When were they Turkicized? If Ayyubids were Kurds, then they rose much later than Shadhi whom your sentence claims was Turkicized. So I am not sure if you know the definition, but a person that is Turkicized is basically a Turk in language, culture and etc., except lineage. Much like Egyptians who were Arabicized although the majority are probably descendants of ancient Egyptians rather than Arabs of the Arabian peninsula. Going back to this article, I also refer you to the Iranica article on this issue as well: [3] I think both Encyclopedia of Islam and Iranica provide a good model to follow. Note a major contradiction with what the book you brought suggest:
“ | level of his culture, the matter is equally ambiguous. The Ayyubids ruled a predominantly Arabic-speaking region, and many of their princes became very proficient in Arabic letters and in the religious sciences. However, we see many signs of a continuing connection with their homeland and with Iranian culture generally. Thus, it is clear that al-Malek al-ʿĀdel and his son al-Malek al-Moʿaẓẓam ʿĪsā (d. 624/1227) still spoke Kurdish or even New Persian. And al-Moʿaẓẓam’s particular interest in Iran is seen in his patronage of two works (in Arabic) by Fatḥ b. ʿAlī Bondārī (q.v.): one, a translation of the Šāh-nāma (ed. ʿA. Aʿẓam, Cairo, 1350/1931); the second, the standard abridgment of ʿEmād-al-dīn Kāteb Eṣfahānī’s history of the Saljuqs (ed. M. Th. Houtsma, Recueil de textes relatifs à l’histoire des Seldjoucides, Leiden, 1886-1902, II). Still, there is no evidence of any widespread translation movement among the Ayyubids, or of any general devotion to the Persian classics.
It is true, however, that the personal influence of Iranian scholars was very much felt in the religious sciences. Dominique Sourdel has shown that almost one-third of the madrasa professors in Aleppo between about A.D. 1150 and 1250 were of Kurdish or Iranian origin. The same figures would not hold for Damascus, let alone Egypt, but their presence in these places was far from negligible. However, most of these men had come to Syria not under the Kurdish Ayyubids but under the Turkish Zangids, particularly Nūr-al-dīn Maḥmūd, in the third quarter of the sixth/twelfth century (D. Sourdel, “Les professeurs de madrasa à Alep aux XIIe-XIIIe siècles d’après Ibn Šaddād,” Bulletin d’études orientales 13, 1949-51, pp. 85-115).
In spite of the importance of Kurdish recruitment for the Zangid armies, one should not suppose that the Kurds were ever more than a minority of these forces. And though Kurdish troops become more visible than ever before in the reign of Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, they certainly remained a minority, constituting at the highest possible estimate one-third of his forces. The Kurds in Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s armies were sometimes recruited and placed as individuals, but they are more commonly found as members of tribally organized units, of which the sources name four: the Hakkārīya (certainly the largest and most powerful), the Mehrānīya, the Ḥomaydīya, and the Zarzārīya (see, e.g., Abū Šāma, Ketāb al-Rawżatayn II, pp. 144, 179). After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn’s death, however, such tribal units are rarely recorded, and Kurdish soldiers appear either as individuals or under the collective appellation “al-Akrād.” After Ṣalāḥ-al-dīn, in fact, the Kurds seem to have become a far less prominent part of the Ayyubid military establishment; their amirs are less often members of the political elite, which becomes increasingly Turkish.
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This is much more detailed article from a very highly respected scholar. It contradicts the Turkicized bit. Because it shows Ayyubids spoke Kurdish (thus not Turkicized), had a large contingent of Kurdish troops and etc. I have also mentioned Vladimir Minorsky. If you want an example of Turkicized dynasty, that is the [{Safavids]]. But the Ayyubids were Kurdish in culture and ethnicity and did not adopt Turkish language and became Turkish voluntarily as the article Turkicized mentions. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:15, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
Note also the Iranica article is written by Stephen Humphreys who is a top expert on the Ayyubids [4]. -- Nepaheshgar ( talk) 04:25, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
This is bullshit.Kurdish creating fake history.Cause this idiot peoples new nation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.243.7.76 ( talk) 13:29, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
I would warn certain "new" editors against cherry picking when adding information. The Cambridge History of Iran source calls the Hahdbani Kurds(p 33) and Saladin a Kurd(p 33). -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 23:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
Saladin founded the Ayyubid dynasty(1171-1250) and AFTER Nur al-din's death in 1174, declared himself sultan. Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and the Middle East, Volume 1, by Jamie Stokes, p383.
Therefore, it was NOT Sultan Saladin founding the Ayyubid dypnasty, which is historically inaccurate, but Saladin as a chief advisor to Nur al-din. --
Kansas Bear (
talk) 19:32, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
According to Will Durant, "...the Fatimid dynasty came to a quiet end. Saladin made himself governor instead of vizier, and acknowledged Nur-ud-din as his soveriegn." --"The Age of Faith" by Will Durant, p.311. -- Kansas Bear ( talk) 21:23, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
As per Al Ameer son's edit
[5] and summary "The source actually supports that specific material in the article", I would like to see the quote from Hourani's book, "A History of the Arab peoples", that supports the sentence, "Arabic was the language of high culture and of the urban population, but other native languages continued to be used in some rural communities throughout the Ayyubid territories".
Hourani's book page 96 states, "In the same way, while Arabic was the language of high culture and much of the urban population, other languages still survived from the period before the coming of the Muslim conquerors".
I see no connection to the Ayyubids, much less any mention of them. --
Kansas Bear (
talk) 03:34, 6 April 2013 (UTC)
Should this article be renamed Ayyubid Sultanate? The Ayyubids were not just a dynasty, they established a sultanate recognized by the caliph and were thus a state similar to their successors, the Mamluk Sultanate. This article originally was just a list of Ayyubid sultans and emirs so the name "Ayyubid dynasty" made more sense back then. I moved this list years ago to List of Ayyubid rulers. The current article has since become about the Ayyubid state (its history, economy, government, culture, architectural legacy, etc) so wouldn't it be more logical to move this article to "Ayyubid Sultanate"? -- Al Ameer ( talk) 06:23, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
Hey, Ayyubid dynasty is muslim dynasty with kurdish origin! It's a muslim kurdish state in Medieval period! So, official language is kurdish, after that, (because many arabic tribes were in Middle-East and North Africa) arabic!-- Titan971118 ( talk) 20:01, 31 December 2015 (UTC)
I'm surprised to see no mention of the Jewish population of Egypt, which was large, important and was until 1204 led by the philosopher and theologian Moses Maimonides, who was also chief physician to the court of the Vizier. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Not2late ( talk • contribs) 09:55, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
Al Ameer son
Taken from Mimihitam's talk page after the latter removed this from their talk page.
Hi
Mimihitam. I see you've been making a bunch of changes to the
Ayyubid dynasty article. It's good to see people engaging with these topics, but I'm concerned that several of your edits were pretty hasty and quite destructive as a result. From what I can see:
You deleted a statement about the Arabized culture of the Ayyubid court with the rationale that is was "completely irrelevant to the article" and unsourced, despite that fact that the sentence credited this view to a scholar whose work is cited in a linked source in the article (just not in this sentence). A quick check would have shown that the deleted text correctly presented this view. Some experience with the article would reveal that we regularly have to deal with partisan vandals claiming that Ayyubids, especially Saladin, had a wholly Kurdish or wholly Arab identity. So this text is very relevant and easily sourced.
You deleted a bunch of text on education as being "not in source", when in fact every statement is supported by the two sources given.
You deleted a sourced sentence about the Ayyubid conquest of the Hadramaut as being irrelevant to the Syria and Lebanon section (correct) rather than just relocate the information to the Arabian peninsula section.
You deleted a sentence about the North African campaign that the Ayyubids carried out at the same time as fighting the Third Crusade.
Some of your other small changes were beneficial, but the sheer amount of sourced and relevant information you have deleted in the process is alarming. This article has been carefully honed over time by many dedicated editors including Al Ameer son and Kansas Bear. I'd really like to get your explanation for why you felt these cuts were appropriate, and hopefully a commitment to be much more careful with future edits. Many thanks. Rupert Clayton ( talk) 17:29, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
My response:
To voice Rupert Clayton's concerns, this paragraph:
I see no reason to remove this entire paragraph despite the source being unviewable. The information is neither speculation nor outlandish. The removal of the reference, being unverifiable, would have been more appropriate and tagging the paragraph.
The Citadel dramatically embodies the defensive priorities of the era, but for Salah al-Din, safeguarding the stronghold of faith was just as important. For this reason, when Sunni orthodoxy was restored to Egypt, ten madrasas were established during his reign and twenty-five in total during the whole Ayyubid period...
@ Al Ameer son: Well I've read the whole article and I think it's quite ready for FA nomination. The only remaining question for me would be the map. The map in the article is very well sourced, but this one seems to be more consistent with the content (since it is explicitly written that the Ayyubids conquered Kairouan). Which one is more accurate? Mimihitam ( talk) 21:09, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
References
Hello, it is quite misleading to state that the Ayyubids are Kurdish. There are tons of sources that state that they are Arabs. I am personally an Ayybuid and I belong to the family of Salahi, which is descendant of Saladin. We have never ever claimed to be Kurdish at all and we belong to the tribe of Banu Murrah, which is an Arab tribe. The only historian who states that he is Kurdish was Al-Masoudi, who himself was against the Arabs. Everyother historian states that he was Arab. Even the Ayybuids themselves stated they were not Kurdish. The rest of the Western historians claiming that he was Kurd is for propaganda use and publicize a non existing "Kurdistan". We are Arabs and we will always remain to be, this is what my grandfather has told us, this is what my ancestors have been telling each of their descendants, and this is what our family tree says. Ayyubids are of Banu Murrah and are Arabs. So please, as an Ayyubid, I find this quite disrespectful and misleading. We are not propaganda material. If this encyclopedia is trying to be authentic they should remove "Kurdish". Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:C400:149D:A14E:3FE4:C9A3:982D ( talk) 06:26, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Kurdish identity is related to the unique Kurdish nationalism, Kurdish core element seems to be a vague connection to Indo-Aryan Mittani with a Hurrian Substratum, otherwise they would have Persianized already, especially with the strong Iranian linguistic influence that started hitting Kurdistan as early as the 8th century BC & continued until the Sassanid empire. In Addition to the obvious Iranian influx, some Semitic people got Kurdified (Israelites, Assyrians & later Arabian regional rulers) became Kurdified which makes them Kurds, just like the rest of the people who got Kurdified (also Turanids, Caucasian people & pretty much anybody who entered Kurdistan got Kurdified). If it helps many Kurds eventually Arabized in Syria, Egypt & Yemen, should we go yank those people who identify as Arab today and claim they are Kurds? Egapempleh ( talk) 09:42, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
I just want to note I had a great laugh from the nonsense written by the Arab/Turkish nationalist who wrote the piece titled "Ayyubids are Arabs". Thank you for the laugh! 2001:1C03:708:C100:CDAA:1D54:219C:75A7 ( talk) 12:21, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
Replaced previous Ayyubid misleading political rhetoric, with neutral terms.
Kharijites never existed in Yemen: the Mahdids were a fundamental militants Sunni but not Kharijite, Ayyubids had to label them as such to justify attacking a fellow Sunni dynasty.
Shia Banu Karam tribe Al Karam Al Zurayi was the father of (Al-Abbas & Almsaod) a small family from the Yam branch of Hamdan, the two branches of the small family led a loose Hamdanid Confederacy, that was complemented at times & challenged at other times by the Hatim Hamdanid emirs of Sana'a. The Ayyubid use of vague Shia instead of Ismaili is to avoid angering the still heavily Ismaili Egypt back home. Egapempleh ( talk) 09:55, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Within the intro and elsewhere, for most readers I think it would be more effective and educational to say something like this:
Saladin's large sultanate ultimately ranged from Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and Sudan to Syria and northern Iraq, and it included western Arabia (for instance, Mecca and Medina) southward all the way to Yemen.
Dr.Bastedo ( talk) 22:09, 8 October 2019 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 01:22, 9 January 2020 (UTC)
Hello,
Will Wikipedia please do something about the blatant de-Kurdification of the Ayyubid Dynasty by contemporary Arab chauvinists and Turkish nationalists? The section "culture and language" is very politicized, and it mainly serves to destruct the dynasty's Kurdishness, even though their Kurdishness has been firmly established for 900 years.
Some of the things included in that section to claim Arabization of the Ayyubids are:
"The Ayyubids had Arab surnames..."
So? Millions of Kurds today have Arab surnames, but DO NOT, and never have, identified as Arabs. This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I have seen, and I am astonished wikipedia allows these kinds of arguments in an important entry like this one.
Furthermore, the sole source cited to claim Arabization of the Ayyubids of the late 12th century (in other words; Saladin himself) is a single contemporary "expert", who just happens to be an Arab nationalist. How are sources like this allowed on Wikipedia? These claims have major rammifications and are literally historic revisionism. To make such claims, multiple primary sources from that time must be a REQUIREMENT.
Here are some impartial primary and secondary sources that solidify the Ayyubid's Kurdishness. Including the "late 12th century Ayyubids", which that section claims to have been "properly Arabized".
"Among the free-born amirs the Kurds would seem the most dependent on Saladin's success for the progress of their own fortunes. He too was a Kurd, after all, and under his aegis they might hope for borader opportunities in rank, estates, and political influence than they could outherwise expect in the predominantly Turkish dynastties of the age. Conversely his regime might well ave appeared to them a shield which could protect them against the ethnocentrism and racial prejudice of the Turks.
That ethnic consciousness and friction did exist in Saladin's reign there can be no doubt; Saladin obtained the Fatimid vizierate partly on the strength of it. After Shirkuh's death, Saladin's close associate Diya' al-Din 'Isa al-Hakkari (a Kurd) visited the leaders of each faction contending for power to try to win them over to the election of Saladin, and to one Kurdish amir (Qutb al-Din Khusrau b. al-Talal) he used the following argument: "Verily, everybody is for Saladin except you and al-Yaruqi [a Turkmen amir from the north Syrian Yürük tribe]. What is needed now, above all, is an understanding between you and Saladin, especially because of his Kurdish origin, so that the command does not go from him to the Turks."
It is worth noting that within a few months of Saladin's elevation, all the Turkish amirs had returned to Syria save those in the late Shirkuh's Asadiyya corps. There is more than this: Saladin was at least twice subjected to taunts about his origins by the Turkish soldiers of Mosul, and in one passage of his al-Barq al-Shami 'Imad al-Din indulges in a lenghty attack on the Kurdish troops of the Artukids. Treachery on the part of a group of Kurds among its defenders enabled Saladin to take Sinjar in 578/1182.
Most indicative of all is the letter submitted to Saladin by his amirs as he was trying to prepare the defense of Jerusalem against the expected attack of Richard Coeur-de-Lion: "If you wish us to remain [here], then either you or one of your family should be present with us, so that we may rally together around him. Otherwise, the Kurds will not be subjected to the Turks, nor the Turks to the Kurds."
If the Kurds expected Saladin's patronage and protection, they had no reason to be disappointed. That he recruited them in considerable numbers appears not only from the numerous Kurdish amirs who appear in the chronicles, but also from the fact that in his later armies at least (the period 583/1187-588/1192) there were independently organized contingents from four tribes – the Hakkaris, the Humaydis, the Zarzaris, and the Mihranis. Undoubtedly Saladin's relations with his Kurdish amirs were strengthened by common race and the broad role affairs which he gave them."
"From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260" by R. Stephen Humphreys.
Note that these are not Humphrey's opinions, but that all this information is based on primary sources from that time. This is how the Ayyubids thought and felt themselves. Their Kurdishness clearly played an important, in fact decisive, role in their lives. Were it not for their ethnic Kurdish consciousness, they would have never risen to power in the first place. Also note that these events are about the late 12th century, which the Arabs on here try to have Arabized.
In addition, here is another interesting source that proves the Ayyubids' ethnic consciousness. They had Yazidi Kurd (non-muslim Kurdish) allies and allowed those Kurds to spread their faith (again, a non-Islamic religion; a Kurdish religion) throughout the Kurdish Ayyubid Empire:
"Years later, Sheikh Hasan, the grandson of Sheikh ‘Adi’s nephew, expanded Yazidi influence throughout the Muslim world during the 13th century CE. According to Yazidi oral tradition, Hasan wrote the religious text Kitab al-Jilwa li-Arbab al-Khalwa, which put Sheikh ‘Adi’s ideas into written form. During Hasan’s reign, Yazidis served as soldiers in Saladin’s Muslim army during the Crusades and served as ambassadors to the Ayyubid Sultanate. Yazidism itself spread throughout the Kurdish community, and many converted. The Yazidis immigrated to large swathes of the Muslim world."
If the Ayyubids truly were "culturally Arabized", than explain their favouritism to Kurds and to Yazidism, which is a Kurdish religion – it couldn't get more Kurdish culture than that.
Lastly, according to Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, a 12th century Kurdish scholar of great note, personal friend of Saladin, and a Kurd like Saladin, Saladin most trusted counsellors and bravest warriors were Kurds – he did not trust other ethnicities to this position. In fact, Arabs were moslty used as footsoldiers (not even cavalry) and there is very few evidence of Arabs having been given any kind of preferential treatment. In fact, most local Arab rulers were removed from leadership positions and replaced with Kurds.
I hope wikipedia will do something about the blatant historic revisionism on this page. These primary sources also prove that Turks were racists towards Saladin himself, so I hope this will quiet the Turkish nationalists with their incredible nonsense and pathetic attempts at appropriating Saladin. Your ancestors literally disrespected him, and you want to continue that tradition by stealing him from the Kurds? Weak.
2A02:A458:A594:1:E089:E683:5605:3235 ( talk) 11:48, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
Anoter note: why is the Ayyubid Dynasty removed from the Kurdish portal? There used to be a sidebar at the top-right of the page with a Kurdish sun and below it other subjects related to Kurdish people and history. Why was it removed? And will someone please include it again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:E089:E683:5605:3235 ( talk) 11:50, 23 November 2020 (UTC)
We can not use the primary sources which you provided. Per policy on Primary,_secondary_and_tertiary_sources:
The sources I provided are actually exactly what you want; secondary sources based on primary sources. The primary source being Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, a close friend of Saladin, and the secondary source being R. Stephen Humphrey's "From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260". Are you telling me the experiences and words of someone who witnessed Saladin, and a neutral (non-Arab, non-Kurd, non-Turkish) researcher of note's analysis (secondary source) of the main and oldest biography (the primary source) are not accepted, but a single Arab source that destructs the Ayyubid's Kurdishness is? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:8415:BDE9:5A52:28CA ( talk) 10:43, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Again, the secondary source is From Saladin to the Mongols: The Ayyubids of Damascus, 1193-1260" by R. Stephen Humphreys. Which is based on the primary source Baha ad-Din ibn Shaddad, who is the greatest authority on Saladin/Ayyubids. Almost everything we know about Saladin comes from the biography he wrote in that period. If these sources are not accepted, than you can pretty much delete most wiki's relating Saladin/Ayyubids because most secondary sources are based on Ibn Shaddad's works, an authority in the field
I fully expect the ridiculous part about the Ayyubids having been "firmly Arabized" to be removed because it could not be farther from the truth per the authoritative sources provided
2A02:A458:A594:1:2DD8:4364:B99D:4D4 ( talk) 01:53, 25 November 2020 (UTC). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:A458:A594:1:8415:BDE9:5A52:28CA ( talk) 10:49, 24 November 2020 (UTC)
Here is some additional information and sources that prove Arabs and Arab culture/identity had VERY LITTLE to do with Saladin and the Ayyubid Dynasty in general:
And to summarize my previous points which I backed with secondary sources:
Please tell me again how the single most authoritative source on Saladin's life, namely one of his companions who wrote the first biography on Saladin and other Ayyubid works, and multiple reliable and accredited impartial (non-Arabic, non-Turkish, non-Kurdish) secondary sources are overridden by a single (nationalist) Arab source? This is blatant appropriation and historic revisionism and Wikipedia is tolerating it!
2A02:A458:A594:1:5844:624D:240A:A78A ( talk) 18:25, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
You do realize Ayyubid Sultans denied any kurdish ancestry? Jasmkssnksskskskskz ( talk) 19:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
@ Al Ameer son: Hey what do you think about Humphreys statement in the Ayyubids entry in Iranica? [6] He states that according to Minorsky the family "might" have been Kurds of Arab origins. At the moment, the article does not fully reflect this, or do you think its WP:UNDUE weight? I'm not fully aware of the entire modern-day academic consensus i.e. narrative, other than that they are considered to be Muslims of Kurdish origins, so I thought I should contact you.
"The Ayyubids traced their ancestry back to Šāḏī, a notable of the Kurdo-Armenian town of Dvin (Ar. Dabīl) in the first quarter of the sixth/twelfth century. Ebn Ḵallekān [Beirut, I, pp. 255-56, tr. de Slane, p. 243] identifies him as belonging “to one of the most eminent and respectable families of Duwîn” (men ahl Dowīn wa men abnāʾ aʿyānehā wa’l-moʿtabarīn behā). Šāḏī’s father is commonly called Marwān, but nothing whatever is known about him. It does seem clear, however, that Šāḏī was a member of the Rawādīya section of the powerful Haḏbānīya tribe, and that the Rawādīya were the dominant Kurdish group in the Dvin district. It is quite evident that the progenitor of the Ayyubids was no simple pastoralist, but a member of the sedentary political-military elite of a marginal but very complex region. Once the Ayyubids were ensconced in power, some of them sponsored genealogies showing that they were not Kurds, but rather of noble Arab descent, stemming from the Morra b. ʿAwf—or even from the Banū Omayya: On one level, such genealogies are obviously fictions. However, Minorsky (Studies in Caucasian History, pp. 114-16, 123, 128-30) argues that the Rawādīya Kurds should perhaps be connected to the descendants of the Arab general Rawwād Azdī, who was governor of Tabrīz ca. 200/815. These men, having become Kurdicized, emerge in the late fourth/tenth century as the paramount clan among the powerful Haḏbānīya tribe in Azerbaijan, whence one branch moved to take up residence in the district of Dvin at some point in the eleventh century. If Minorsky’s speculations are sound, then the fictitious Arab genealogies of the Ayyubids not only contain a kernel of truth but preserve an authentic folk memory."
- LouisAragon ( talk) 01:41, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
A user ( D4rkeRR9) who has previously made multiple undiscussed page moves elsewhere (see Talk:Almoravid dynasty and other examples at Idrisid dynasty, French Protectorate in Morocco, and List of wars involving the State of Palestine, etc), has just moved this page without discussion. The term "sultanate" is not inaccurate for the state Saladin created, but I haven't worked on this page much so I'm not sure how well it matches the full topic as it is presented here. Either way, I would invite editors to express whether or not they approve of the name change. If not, it should be reverted. R Prazeres ( talk) 21:44, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Rawadiya were Arabic origin not kurdish . Also dynasty were Turkized people. Add this
Tursenian (
talk) 12:27, 15 February 2021 (UTC) <---
CU blocked
sock of
User:HistoryOfTurkic
The article gives the area of the empire as 3,750,000 sq km in 1190 and 2,500,000 sq km in 1200. Thinking this unlikely, looking at the size of modern Egypt and Saudi Arabia compared to the map provided, I decided to use the borders shown in the map and sketch them out on Google Maps. Using those borders yields an area of a little over 1,600,000 sq km, less than half of the size the empire apparently was just 3 years earlier. I suspect those larger sizes must be including a great deal of empty desert over which the Ayubbids exercised no meaningful control. Certainly my sketching of the borders on Google Maps was rough, but not so rough as to account for a missing 2,150,000 sq km - approximately the size of modern Saudi Arabia. Interestingly the article that is the source for the area claims ( http://jwsr.pitt.edu/ojs/jwsr/article/view/369/381, see Table 1, page 223) gives an area of 2 million square kilometres in 1190 - much closer to the result I got using the map in the article. Based on all this I am quite certain the Ayubbid Empire was never remotely close to 2.5 million, let alone 3.75 millon. I think a range of 1.5-2 million seems likely and given even the article's own source supports 2 million, I think it should be edited to reflect that figure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:7102:AD01:B508:F356:CE81:ECC1 ( talk) 04:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
When it comes to the origins of the Ayyubids, whose better to ask than the Ayyubids themselves?
In his book Al-Fawaid, the Ayyubid prince of Damascus and Saladin's grandnephew Hassn bin Daud addressed his family's origins, According to Prince Hassan his father and grandfather before him both agreed that the Ayyubid dynasty is an Arab dynasty descended from Banu Murrah tribe. He further asserted that his entire family denies any Kurdish ancestry. Jasmkssnksskskskskz ( talk) 20:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
In order to prove that he is Kurdish, 4 sources are included, and most of them are unqualified and unclear, Bosworth's book states that he is Turkified. Other sources proving that he is Kurdish should be included. 176.216.90.225 ( talk) 14:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
The date of establishment is 1171, not 1174. Artaxius58 34 ( talk) 16:44, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
? Artaxius58 34 ( talk) 17:07, 30 October 2021 (UTC)
It says that the state was founded in 1171, so how does it become a sovereign state from 1170 to 1260? should be corrected. ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 06:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Yes, it should be 1171 in the "Sovereign State" Section Mihrdat21 ( talk) 18:19, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Shajar al-durr was a Mamluk Sultan, not an Ayyubid Mamluks were in Egypt for a very short time, then Ayyubid rule came again
Saladin 1174–1193 Al-Aziz 1193–1198 Al-Mansur 1198–1200 Al-Adil I 1200–1218 Al-Kamil 1218–1238 Al-Adil II 1238–1240 As-Salih Ayyub 1240–1249 Al-Muazzam Turanshah 1249-1250 Al-Ashraf Musa 1250-1254 ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
1249-1250 Should Be Al Magnificent Turanshah Instead of Shajar al-durr ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:14, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
Magnificent = Muazzam ArtaXerxes58 ( talk) 17:15, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
I should have noticed this earlier when I made this revert, but this edit made me realize it: the "Common languages" section of the infobox is listing languages according to what the cited sources say Saladin spoke, but this article is not about Saladin so these sources are not actually verifying what's supposed to be there. The list is probably misleading and/or incomplete as a result. Do we have sources relating instead to the status of languages in the relevant territories at the time? R Prazeres ( talk) 21:02, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
This raises a broader issue concerning the article: is it about the dynasty, as the title implies, or the Ayyubid state? I believe there is more than sufficient information to warrant separate articles, with this one continuing to be mainly about the state and a new one concerning the dynasty/family itself. This question should be dealt with in a separate thread, but as far as language is concerned, if we are speaking of the Ayyubid state: Arabic was the language of government, religion (at least of Islam) and high culture, as well as the Ayyubid rulers; Kurdish was the mother tongue of at least the first generation of Ayyubids, a good part of their forces, and of course in Kurdish-speaking regions in Anatolia/Upper Mesopotamia under Ayyubid suzerainty; Turkish was the language of many and later most of the core troops of the state; besides these, there were other communities across the empire which continued to use their own spoken, written, or liturgical languages—but to what degree all these languages should be listed in the infobox should probably be limited to the most common. Al Ameer ( talk) 03:13, 2 December 2022 (UTC)
Ahh shit here we go again.I alright said link of book [ [7]].Wiki common language in table say Kurdish spoke per France1998 in 84.page.But France 1998 page 84 say "Saladin,the great commander,was a Kurd who probably spoke Turkish to his commander".So Saladin was Kurdish but spoke Turkish.Ok?Could i add Turkish to table with France1998 refference? 5.229.101.196 ( talk) 22:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
I decided to employ free variation of roughly equal frequency, with attentiveness to section headings, in order to get a better NPOV presentation. Using only "Israel" or only "Palestine" has a political connotation and that decision brings a non-political article into a political domain. If you use free variation that accusation can't be levied and does a significant amount of work to bring back the NPOV and the fairness. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.135.98.136 ( talk) 05:25, 9 March 2023 (UTC)