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I'm deleting the following sentence: "Christopher I. Beckwith claims, in Empires of the Silk Road, that Avestan is an Indo-Aryan language, with the Iranian linguistic traits found in the Avesta having been introduced by oral transmission among Iranian language speakers." The idea is, frankly, nuts, and I don't think anyone takes it seriously. Mrrhum ( talk) 18:36, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Is this original work? -- Zoe Both Rigvedic Sanskrit and Avestan Persian are too similar to be a concidence and both certainly have a common Aryan origin. Thus there is no latitude to create a fake controversy to push an agenda pertaining to this.
The following is an example of the closeness of the Avestan and Sanskrit languages: Old Iranian/Avestan: aevo pantao yo ashahe, vispe anyaesham apantam (Yasna 72.11) Old Indian/Sanskrit: abade pantha he ashae, visha anyaesham apantham Translation: the one path is that of Asha, all others are not-paths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 ( talk) 22:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Probably not. Most of the other stuff entered by the same user was copyright violation. -- Zocky 03:06 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)
I have rewritten this page from scratch. -- Paul Barlow
The article needs serious editing. The text is not called Zend Avesta, rather just the Avesta (Middle Persian Abestag). Zand is the commentary on the Avesta. I am going to edit it and add to the contents.
My problem throughout wikipedia is the usage of "Magi". It is inaccurate and suggestive. Nowhere have I seen anyone use the correct Dastur, Mobed, or Ervad. Khirad 10:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Is there any Dravidian loan in Avestan? Meursault2004 16:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So you think Pashto is a modern descendant of Avestan? Interesting, I haven't heard that before. Well now it's time for something else: the Indo-Aryan language Hindi hasn't absorbed much of its neighboring Dravidian langs, but how about Sanskrit? It has absorbed quite a few like phala (fruit) etc. Furthermore the Dravidian languages have influenced the phonology of Sanskrit. The so-called retroflex phonemes are loans from Dravidian. Meursault2004 13:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Dravidian people have never streched in to Pashtun land so stop with the BS, they're lands do not even cross the indus river. Pashto has no dravid words either, just heavy borrowing from Arabic and Sanskirit. And Retroflex nouns are not only common in Indian language but even in European languages like Icelandic, Swedish and Norwiegian. Retroflex nouns found in Pashto is due to a proto-indo european cause. Akmal94 ( talk) 23:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
I changed Devanagri to Devanāgarī not just because it's correct, but because the other spelling is a pet peeve of mine! Also added omniglot link for goodness sake! Khirad 10:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Avestan, an extinct Indo-Iranian language related to Old Persian and Sanskrit. Heja Helweda 01:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I never heard of Avestan or any other Iranian languages using implosives. Also, the presence of a "post-uvular" nasal is dubious. Avestan alphabet on www.avesta.org does not include those sounds.
I got rid of them. The table is now correct.-- AlBargit
What is the nonesense about the classification of Avestan as an Eastern Iranian language being unclear? Where did you get the idea that the seperation of the Eastern and Western Iranian are "poorly understood"? If you have read anything written since 1950's on (it is a problem, people often go back to the 19th century works on Avestan), you will see that it is always marked as an Eastern Iranian Language. The differences are clear and very well understood, so I beg to differ with the statement here. Avestan has classical East Iranian phonological tendencies (z for WIr. d, for example) and has been confidently put as a Northeastern Iranian language. no doubt about it.-- 71.106.119.109 08:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems as though the table doesn't address what consonants are represented by ϑ, t̰, ṇ, ṣ̌,. I'm assuming the last two are simply retroflex, but I really have no idea about the first two. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This sie is gift from Qurdian separatist and read terrorists. The Avestan language is EASTERN iranian (as Pashto, Ossetian and others) and NON Kurdian language. Stop with propaganda of Greater Kurdistan!
Just Curious - which part of "After the >>alleged<< destruction of the Achaemenid palace library by Alexander the Great" is more of an "allegation" than the rest of History in general... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.25.6 ( talk) 19:47, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
The passage that contains "The Artificial Young Avestan however is a corrupt form of the language..." seems like a sentence constructed to express an opinion.
All human languages are "artificial". i.e. they are all humanly created. All languages go through "corruption" as they mutate or evolve. Based on such an opinion therefore, today's English would be a corruption of Chaucer's definition of the language. Or, perhaps, Chaucer's definition is "artificial"?
I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject would remove the words "corrupt" and "artificial" and rephrase them in less subjective fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hence Jewish Anderstein ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
On my talk page, Xashaiar opined ...
That is quite a remarkable inversion of the situation. In reality, I merely follow sources ...
The Encyclopedia Iranica article on "Avestan language" states:
Xashaiar asserts (see next point) that the Iranica's "Avestan geography" article asserts the contrary. What that article actually says is:
What Xashaiar turned that passage into is:
That is a blindingly obvious inversion of meaning.
Now, I really don't care whether Avestan is classified as "eastern" or "western", but Xashaiar's creative re-interpretation of sources will really not do. So I've replaced Xashaiar's creative "analysis" of Gnoli's "Avestan geography" with a verbatim quote from that source. Its superfluous in my opinion, but Xashaiar wants it, so that's what he gets. -- Fullstop ( talk) 12:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Young Avestan went through the following stages: 1. The original language of the composers of grammatically correct YAv. texts; perhaps in Marv or Herat; 2. Dialect influences as a result of the transfer of the Av. texts to Southeast Iran (Arachosia?); 3. Transfer of the Avesta to Persis in Southwest Iran, possibly earlier than 500 B.C.; 4. Transmission of the Avesta in a Southwest Iranian theological school, probably in Eṣṭaḵr: Old Pers. and Mid. Pers. influences, the insistence on fantastic pronunciations by semi-learned schoolmasters (Av. aēθrapaiti-), the composition of ungrammatical late Av. texts, the adaptation of portions of texts taken from other regions where they were recited; 5. The end of the oral transmission: phonetic notation of the Avestan texts in the Sasanian archetype, probably in the fourth century A.D.; 6. Post-Sasanian deterioration of the written transmission due to incorrect pronunciation (Vulgate); 7. In the ninth and tenth centuries A.D. the manuscript copies of individual texts were made on which the extant manuscripts are based; 8. Earlier manuscripts were copied in manuscripts dating from A.D. 1288 till the nineteenth century by scribes who introduced errors and corruptions. These are the manuscripts extant today.
— (Avestan Language in EIr)
Wouldn't Avestan be a Persian language, instead of Eastern Iranian? Iran has nothing to do with the creation of Avestan. Avestan was the language used by the Persians in Zoroaster's life. That group of people were not eastern Iranians, but Persians or specifically Achamenidians. Warrior4321 talk 01:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I was merely asking if Persian would be a more appropriate name, just to improve Wikipedia. I don't know where you got the idea that my pals or I would post that there. The purpose of me, coming and discussing this on the talk page is because I do not want to add it to Wikipedia, if it should not be there.
After asking my question and to your response, I did some research on the topic and I found out that Iranians in Iran have always called themselves Iranians, all the way from Zoroaster's time. Yet, like in the post above foreigners have called Iranians, Persians. Ergo, my previous post. I was just sharing what I found, to try and improve the article. I don't see why you had to use a personal attack on me. Warrior4321 talk 02:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
There are many historical reference to pashto that links it as the modern successor of avestan which is a fact considering that pashto has a vast avestan vocabulary preserved both living and extinct as opposed to many other indo-iranian languages in the region. 71.139.17.191 ( talk) 18:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)Pashtun786
ROFL hahaha ...creating and fabricating new history for Pushtuns, huh? Scholars and experts spit in your face.-- 188.97.64.86 ( talk) 16:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Its okay you persian wannabes can get know where with your fake "everything is persian" propaganda looool that something you should laugh at, by the way the truth can sometimes hurt, persians come from pashtuns (Real aryans). 71.139.6.39 ( talk) 05:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)pashtun786
You Sir(s), belong to the stormfront forums. Please go there and say whatever you like, this is an encyclopedia not a place to express your racial superiority.16:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
hahha pashtus? lol your language everything is persian i`m not persian but anyways
for example dari give me some historical facts about ancient pashtus? i have seen black and chinese pashtus
The classification of Avestan as an East Iranian language is not correct. See the article Eastern Iranian languages by Nicholas Sims-Williams in Encyclopaedia Iranica: ... Avestan geographically belongs to the eastern Iranian area (see avestan geography), but shows few if any of the distinctive characteristics of the later Eastern Iranian languages. (A possible example is provided by the Av. third person plural verbal ending -āire < *-ārai, which has its only precise cognates in the Eastern Iranian languages Khotanese, Chorasmian, and Yaghnobi.) One may suppose that at this stage the Iranian languages had only recently begun to diverge from one another, and that only the more peripheral languages had already developed markedly individual traits. ... Tajik ( talk) 15:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
There is a section in the etymology of the Zarathushtra article in which the claim is made that because "zarat-/zarant-" "do not appear in Avestan," there is reason for other alternative etymologies. But a simple look at the two main Avestan dictionaries online shows "zairi-" "zaranim-" etc. do translate to "golden," or "yellow." Is this a case where the Orientalist etymologies are based on a rather plain error? - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 20:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
While the notion of Avestan being part of he Eastern Iranian group has been around for some time, today's scholarship agrees that Avestan in its original, Old Avestan form was what is best named the "central dialect" in Iran, together with e.g. Median and what was probably Old Parthian. The common features with Eastern Iranian languages are basically the influence of the Eastern Iranian transmitters of the Avestan corpus. See Sims-Williams in Ramat and Ramat (1998) and R. Schmitt in CLI (1989) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.91.172 ( talk) 18:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Because most academic sources including LINGUIST List classifies Avestan as Eastern Iranian and the same was its classification in the original version of this article prior to recent changes that go against any consensus, it is good I think to restore that classification in the article. Massa getae (talk) 07:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that this is the WP:COMMONNAME of the topic, and that the topic is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term. Cúchullain t/ c 15:38, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Avestan language →
Avestan –
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. "
Avestan" redirects to the language page.
Shhhhwwww!! (
talk) 02:06, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@
Taivo,
Florian Blaschke, and
Maunus: please have a look at
this edit, which canged "Indo-Iranian" into "Indo-Aryan," witht he brilliant edit-summary "Facts. Iran didn't exist when these languages emerged!"
@
Hvarena: the existence or non-existence of Iran at the time of the Avestan language is completely irrelevant; this is about naming-conventions.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk! 14:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Indo-Aryan_languages
The map used in this artivle is factually wrong. Aryans lived west of the Indus river and the Hindus lived east of it. Thus Indo-Aryan languages, with Avestan, Vedic sanskrit and European ones, being subgroups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Avestan is NOT an Iranian language. You don't even belong to the religion Zoroastrianism nor are you Parsee/Aryan. What gives you the right to decide what is right or wrong regarding these topics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Would anyone have any issues were I to add a section like this to this wikipedia article?
The nearest thing to a direct living descendent of the language of Zarathushtra is known as Pashto, one of the two official languages of the nation of Afghanistan, the other being Dari-Persian.
Gathic or Old Avestan, the language of Zarathushtra, and Zend or Young Avestan, the language of Zarathushtra’s followers are classified as the Northeast variety of the Aryan language-subfamily. Old Avestan preserves larygneal hiatus like Vedic Sanskrit but more faithfully preserves archaic features not found in Vedic, nor Young Avestan making Vedic Sanskrit resemble Young Avestan more so than to Old Avestan.
Because of much of the editorial work happened during the Young Avestan period, Old Avestan has a strongly Young Avestan phonetic cast that represents secondary overlayering and adaption… For example, words beginning in Iranian with the disyllabic sequence * ĵu’a- (with hiatus from * ĵuHa-) still scan disyllabically in the Gathas; later this sequence became monosyllabic *ĵu̯a-, the ancestor of both Avestan zba- (the spelling in the transmitted text) and of Old Persian za-. All this indicates that the text preserves (underneath the modernizations) a stage from a time before the common ancestor of Avestan and Old Persian split. (If that is true, then Young Avestan actually is a lineal descendant of Old Avestan.) Thus the participle zbaiieṇte ‘for him invoking’ at Yasna 49.12 must be read *zuu̯aiieṇtē (probably really *zuu̯aiantai if one undoes the vowel changes.) – Benjamin Fortson, Indo-European Language and Culture pg. 230
Pashto is a new Northeast Aryan language spoken in Afghanistan among Pashtun tribesmen and according to James Darmesteter Pashto is a lineal descendent of Zend Avestan. Pashto /ʂ/, /ʐ/ ɳ / and / ṛ / are all developed from Avestan. Pashto ʂ is a reflex of Avestan sr, rs, r, š corresponding to PIE * kś. The Pashto liquid / ṛ / developed from Av. rt, rd, and the nasal rn. ʈ and ɖ, and kh, however, developed from Indic languages. The Pashtun homeland, Pouruta, is also mentioned in the Avesta. - http://people.ku.edu/~mmth/Four_varieties_of_Pashto.pdf
'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake; 13. 'Who first of the heavenly Yazads [angels] reaches over the Hara, before the undying, swift-horsed sun; who, foremost in a golden array, takes hold of the beautiful summits, and from thence looks over the abode of the Aryans with a beneficent eye. 14. 'Where the valiant chiefs draw up their many troops in array; where the high mountains, rich in pastures and waters, yield plenty to the cattle; where the deep lakes, with salt waters, stand; where wide-flowing rivers swell and hurry towards Ishkata [Hindu Kush] and Pouruta [Pashtunistan], Mouru [Merv] and Haroyu [Herat], the Gava-Sughdha [Sogdiana or Samarkand] and Hvairizem [Chorosmia]; – Mehr Yasht 4.12-14 Mojobadshah ( talk) 23:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Manus what is your issue exactly? that this evidence lacks citations or is incoherent. I've already indicated the sources and I'll provide citations. That should not be an issue. If you think what I've written is incoherent tell me how I can make this more coherent for you, otherwise once I provide the necessary citations I see no reason to post what is written. If you're not going to address my contribution above, and I do post something close to the above along with the citations which are already cited here, I don't want to receive threats from anyone that I may be banned. Mojobadshah ( talk) 13:31, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Manus, are you ok? Apart from your consistent antagonisms on how writing style which is purely subjective (and please do not make any more references to a contributors writing style on this forum. I don't want to have to report you for slander. If you have an issue with style all you got to do is provide constructive criticism as to how the writers style can be improved. There's no cause for slander according to your subjectivity.) - the first two paragraphs that I've provided are practically written verbatim from the sources which I've also cited or provided a link for. As far as the Pashto language being the nearest relation to the Avestan language - before I cite my sources and once I cited my sources would you have an issue with cited sources that support that: Pashto is the closest thing to a direct linguistic descendant of Avestan for several reasons though some may not be linguistic, rather extralinguistic. 1.) Whereas Avestan is an Old Northeast Iranian language - Pashto is a New Northeast Iranian language. 2.) Not only did the language that Zarathushtra and Vishtaspa are associated with designated "Avestan" take root in ancient Balkh, Afghanistan (where Pashto is mostly spoken today) a place-name recalled as Berekhda-[Aramaiti] in the Gathic Avestan language (according to Martin Huag) and Bakhdi in Young Avestan the birthplace and residence of Zarathushtra and Vishtaspa themselves, respectively 3.) according to Michael Witzel the Pashtuns live on part where the Avestan people did 4.) the Pashtuns live on part a majority of place-names attested to in the Avesta 4.) the Pashtuns maintain a few traditions which are remnants of the Avestan period eg. Noe Ruz, Haft Sin, etc... the former Zarathushtrian holy day cited by Mary Boyce as having been established by Zarathushtra himself 5.) its true that Ossetic is an East Iranian language and that the place-name Georgia itself is derived from the Avestan place-name Verekhana but if you mean to say that the Ossetian language is more authentically an descendant of Avestan on account of archaisms and it being defined a Middle Northeast Iranian language - the Pashto language preserves archaisms that even Ossetian does not - so you would not have a point here. Nonetheless I have no issue making a note that Ossetian is related to the Avestan language on account of these aforesaid facts. I also wouldn't have an issue were a note to be made that the linguistic descendant of Soghdian - Yaghanobi which is spoken in Tajikistan is also a New Northeast Iranian language related to the Avestan. However 5.) there are plenty of sources that show that the Soghdians or Yaghanobi were the East Iranian speaking people who were located in the region to the North of the Avestan people (otherwise and linguistically tied by national self-designation to the Gog of Hebrew scripture) whereas the Pashtuns are otherwise known as Afghans - the Avestan people and most likely even the national self-designation Afghan itself being tied to both the term Maga "the Avestan priestly caste or community" as well as the Magog of Hebrew scripture who were located in the region to the south of the ancient Tajikis - the majority of the territories attested to in the Avesta. It's true that there were ancient Tajikis affiliated with the religion of the Avesta, but they were not the people more directly associated with the Avestan language themselves. The people more directly associated with the Avesta would today be known as the Afghans or Pashtuns. So if I provided the citations supporting these facts are you going to have a problem? If so why? Mojobadshah ( talk) 12:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
As far as the 3rd paragraph - it may take a little more effort to make the connection between the Avestan place-name Pouruta, and the Pashtuns or their unofficial state "Pashtunistan" but there is also a host of evidence pointing to this connection. 1.) Martin Huag identifies Pouruta as "Parthia." Prof. Sims Wiliams connects the form Pashto to Persia." And if I'm not mistaken it's Michael Witzel who connects the form Parthia to the form Persia. One way or another the Parthians were not only East Iranian speakers just like the Pashto speakers (and not the Persian speakers). They designated themselves Ashakanian a national ethnonym which is connected to the national self-designation of Pashto speakers Afghan." They claimed to be the direct descendants of the Acheamenid dynasty assumingly because the Acheamenid dynasty was influenced by the Avestan people who descended from East Iran whereas there is no indication that the West Iranian Old Persian speakers were of the Avestan or Zoroastrian flavor until the introduction of the Avestan people to Western Iran. And although this next point is not entirely supportive of my point here the Parthians were designated themselves "Magi" known as Magusaeans in the Aramaic tongue (nd this ethnic self-designation was not only derived from Avestan but has been in use by Eastern Iranians themselves since times immemorial. Sufism for example could be interpreted as the continuum of the Avestan religion - and Sufism took root among the ancient Afghans (while Shiaism also a continuum is more authentically of the West Iranian flavor) Pashtun "holy-men" designate themselves with Avestan derived ethonyms such as [Pir-e-Moghan] as well as Khwaja (a term associated with Kohi-Khwaja - the site of Parthian Zarathusthrian inhabitance cited to be the future birthplace of Zarathushtra's descendant eg. this is the site of the legendary Parhtian Zarathushtrian known as Gondophares which is supported by archeological evidence which includes the remains of the historical figure's palace and temple). Mojobadshah ( talk) 13:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
We can't be too sure that it was known as Avestan before modern studies just because it was the language of the Avesta. I think there should be an "Etymology" category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Out-typer ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
According to IP, Avestan is not closely related to Sanskrit. Google quickly shows otherwise. For example, Christopher I Beckwith (2009), "Empires of the Silk Road":
Avestan's extensive case system and verbal conjugation system is not just similar to that of Vedic Sanskrit; it is almost identical to it. That is extremely odd. To demonstrate the similarity of the two languages, Indo-Iranian specialists have translated Avestan passages into Vedic Sanskrit, or “Old Indic”
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Noticed that ə /ə/
and ə̄ /əː/
were changed to ə /ø/
and ə̄ /œː/
recently here and on
Avestan phonology. Is there anything to substantiate this?
The current chronology places Old Avestan into the 1st millennium BCE and Younger Avestan into the 1st millennium CE. While such a dating has been made in the past, it was in no way universally accepted and certainly doesn't represent the most recent ideas on the chronology of Avestan. For instance, both Rüdiger Schmitt (Die iranischen Sprachen in Geschichte und Gegenwart, 2000) and Prods Oktor Skjaervø (The Iranian Languages, 2009) place them much earlier. Such an early chronology for the Avestan period seems to have become a near consensus in the last decades. If no one presents any counter arguments, I would change the chronology in the article to reflect this. Kjansen86 ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Hintze, Almut (2015). "Zarathustra's Time and Homeland - Linguistic Perspectives". In Stausberg, Michael (ed.). The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianismwhich is certainly a WP:RS. Similarly, Martin Litchfield West's Hymns of Zoroaster (2015) also supports the later dating of Old Avestan. Given the weakness of arguments in the sources you added, (no one disputes that Zoroaster predates the end of the Achaemenid empire, so about 90% of it is irrelevant) I've backed out these changes and returned the article to the status quo ante. - car chasm ( talk) 04:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)
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I'm deleting the following sentence: "Christopher I. Beckwith claims, in Empires of the Silk Road, that Avestan is an Indo-Aryan language, with the Iranian linguistic traits found in the Avesta having been introduced by oral transmission among Iranian language speakers." The idea is, frankly, nuts, and I don't think anyone takes it seriously. Mrrhum ( talk) 18:36, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
Is this original work? -- Zoe Both Rigvedic Sanskrit and Avestan Persian are too similar to be a concidence and both certainly have a common Aryan origin. Thus there is no latitude to create a fake controversy to push an agenda pertaining to this.
The following is an example of the closeness of the Avestan and Sanskrit languages: Old Iranian/Avestan: aevo pantao yo ashahe, vispe anyaesham apantam (Yasna 72.11) Old Indian/Sanskrit: abade pantha he ashae, visha anyaesham apantham Translation: the one path is that of Asha, all others are not-paths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 ( talk) 22:35, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Probably not. Most of the other stuff entered by the same user was copyright violation. -- Zocky 03:06 Jan 24, 2003 (UTC)
I have rewritten this page from scratch. -- Paul Barlow
The article needs serious editing. The text is not called Zend Avesta, rather just the Avesta (Middle Persian Abestag). Zand is the commentary on the Avesta. I am going to edit it and add to the contents.
My problem throughout wikipedia is the usage of "Magi". It is inaccurate and suggestive. Nowhere have I seen anyone use the correct Dastur, Mobed, or Ervad. Khirad 10:52, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Is there any Dravidian loan in Avestan? Meursault2004 16:10, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
So you think Pashto is a modern descendant of Avestan? Interesting, I haven't heard that before. Well now it's time for something else: the Indo-Aryan language Hindi hasn't absorbed much of its neighboring Dravidian langs, but how about Sanskrit? It has absorbed quite a few like phala (fruit) etc. Furthermore the Dravidian languages have influenced the phonology of Sanskrit. The so-called retroflex phonemes are loans from Dravidian. Meursault2004 13:56, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Dravidian people have never streched in to Pashtun land so stop with the BS, they're lands do not even cross the indus river. Pashto has no dravid words either, just heavy borrowing from Arabic and Sanskirit. And Retroflex nouns are not only common in Indian language but even in European languages like Icelandic, Swedish and Norwiegian. Retroflex nouns found in Pashto is due to a proto-indo european cause. Akmal94 ( talk) 23:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
I changed Devanagri to Devanāgarī not just because it's correct, but because the other spelling is a pet peeve of mine! Also added omniglot link for goodness sake! Khirad 10:51, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Avestan, an extinct Indo-Iranian language related to Old Persian and Sanskrit. Heja Helweda 01:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I never heard of Avestan or any other Iranian languages using implosives. Also, the presence of a "post-uvular" nasal is dubious. Avestan alphabet on www.avesta.org does not include those sounds.
I got rid of them. The table is now correct.-- AlBargit
What is the nonesense about the classification of Avestan as an Eastern Iranian language being unclear? Where did you get the idea that the seperation of the Eastern and Western Iranian are "poorly understood"? If you have read anything written since 1950's on (it is a problem, people often go back to the 19th century works on Avestan), you will see that it is always marked as an Eastern Iranian Language. The differences are clear and very well understood, so I beg to differ with the statement here. Avestan has classical East Iranian phonological tendencies (z for WIr. d, for example) and has been confidently put as a Northeastern Iranian language. no doubt about it.-- 71.106.119.109 08:59, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems as though the table doesn't address what consonants are represented by ϑ, t̰, ṇ, ṣ̌,. I'm assuming the last two are simply retroflex, but I really have no idea about the first two. Ƶ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 01:06, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
This sie is gift from Qurdian separatist and read terrorists. The Avestan language is EASTERN iranian (as Pashto, Ossetian and others) and NON Kurdian language. Stop with propaganda of Greater Kurdistan!
Just Curious - which part of "After the >>alleged<< destruction of the Achaemenid palace library by Alexander the Great" is more of an "allegation" than the rest of History in general... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 38.112.25.6 ( talk) 19:47, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
The passage that contains "The Artificial Young Avestan however is a corrupt form of the language..." seems like a sentence constructed to express an opinion.
All human languages are "artificial". i.e. they are all humanly created. All languages go through "corruption" as they mutate or evolve. Based on such an opinion therefore, today's English would be a corruption of Chaucer's definition of the language. Or, perhaps, Chaucer's definition is "artificial"?
I hope someone knowledgeable about this subject would remove the words "corrupt" and "artificial" and rephrase them in less subjective fashion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hence Jewish Anderstein ( talk • contribs) 19:25, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
On my talk page, Xashaiar opined ...
That is quite a remarkable inversion of the situation. In reality, I merely follow sources ...
The Encyclopedia Iranica article on "Avestan language" states:
Xashaiar asserts (see next point) that the Iranica's "Avestan geography" article asserts the contrary. What that article actually says is:
What Xashaiar turned that passage into is:
That is a blindingly obvious inversion of meaning.
Now, I really don't care whether Avestan is classified as "eastern" or "western", but Xashaiar's creative re-interpretation of sources will really not do. So I've replaced Xashaiar's creative "analysis" of Gnoli's "Avestan geography" with a verbatim quote from that source. Its superfluous in my opinion, but Xashaiar wants it, so that's what he gets. -- Fullstop ( talk) 12:04, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Young Avestan went through the following stages: 1. The original language of the composers of grammatically correct YAv. texts; perhaps in Marv or Herat; 2. Dialect influences as a result of the transfer of the Av. texts to Southeast Iran (Arachosia?); 3. Transfer of the Avesta to Persis in Southwest Iran, possibly earlier than 500 B.C.; 4. Transmission of the Avesta in a Southwest Iranian theological school, probably in Eṣṭaḵr: Old Pers. and Mid. Pers. influences, the insistence on fantastic pronunciations by semi-learned schoolmasters (Av. aēθrapaiti-), the composition of ungrammatical late Av. texts, the adaptation of portions of texts taken from other regions where they were recited; 5. The end of the oral transmission: phonetic notation of the Avestan texts in the Sasanian archetype, probably in the fourth century A.D.; 6. Post-Sasanian deterioration of the written transmission due to incorrect pronunciation (Vulgate); 7. In the ninth and tenth centuries A.D. the manuscript copies of individual texts were made on which the extant manuscripts are based; 8. Earlier manuscripts were copied in manuscripts dating from A.D. 1288 till the nineteenth century by scribes who introduced errors and corruptions. These are the manuscripts extant today.
— (Avestan Language in EIr)
Wouldn't Avestan be a Persian language, instead of Eastern Iranian? Iran has nothing to do with the creation of Avestan. Avestan was the language used by the Persians in Zoroaster's life. That group of people were not eastern Iranians, but Persians or specifically Achamenidians. Warrior4321 talk 01:05, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
I was merely asking if Persian would be a more appropriate name, just to improve Wikipedia. I don't know where you got the idea that my pals or I would post that there. The purpose of me, coming and discussing this on the talk page is because I do not want to add it to Wikipedia, if it should not be there.
After asking my question and to your response, I did some research on the topic and I found out that Iranians in Iran have always called themselves Iranians, all the way from Zoroaster's time. Yet, like in the post above foreigners have called Iranians, Persians. Ergo, my previous post. I was just sharing what I found, to try and improve the article. I don't see why you had to use a personal attack on me. Warrior4321 talk 02:05, 5 July 2009 (UTC)
There are many historical reference to pashto that links it as the modern successor of avestan which is a fact considering that pashto has a vast avestan vocabulary preserved both living and extinct as opposed to many other indo-iranian languages in the region. 71.139.17.191 ( talk) 18:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)Pashtun786
ROFL hahaha ...creating and fabricating new history for Pushtuns, huh? Scholars and experts spit in your face.-- 188.97.64.86 ( talk) 16:53, 30 December 2009 (UTC)
Its okay you persian wannabes can get know where with your fake "everything is persian" propaganda looool that something you should laugh at, by the way the truth can sometimes hurt, persians come from pashtuns (Real aryans). 71.139.6.39 ( talk) 05:11, 8 May 2010 (UTC)pashtun786
You Sir(s), belong to the stormfront forums. Please go there and say whatever you like, this is an encyclopedia not a place to express your racial superiority.16:14, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
hahha pashtus? lol your language everything is persian i`m not persian but anyways
for example dari give me some historical facts about ancient pashtus? i have seen black and chinese pashtus
The classification of Avestan as an East Iranian language is not correct. See the article Eastern Iranian languages by Nicholas Sims-Williams in Encyclopaedia Iranica: ... Avestan geographically belongs to the eastern Iranian area (see avestan geography), but shows few if any of the distinctive characteristics of the later Eastern Iranian languages. (A possible example is provided by the Av. third person plural verbal ending -āire < *-ārai, which has its only precise cognates in the Eastern Iranian languages Khotanese, Chorasmian, and Yaghnobi.) One may suppose that at this stage the Iranian languages had only recently begun to diverge from one another, and that only the more peripheral languages had already developed markedly individual traits. ... Tajik ( talk) 15:54, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
There is a section in the etymology of the Zarathushtra article in which the claim is made that because "zarat-/zarant-" "do not appear in Avestan," there is reason for other alternative etymologies. But a simple look at the two main Avestan dictionaries online shows "zairi-" "zaranim-" etc. do translate to "golden," or "yellow." Is this a case where the Orientalist etymologies are based on a rather plain error? - Stevertigo ( w | t | e) 20:30, 3 June 2010 (UTC)
While the notion of Avestan being part of he Eastern Iranian group has been around for some time, today's scholarship agrees that Avestan in its original, Old Avestan form was what is best named the "central dialect" in Iran, together with e.g. Median and what was probably Old Parthian. The common features with Eastern Iranian languages are basically the influence of the Eastern Iranian transmitters of the Avestan corpus. See Sims-Williams in Ramat and Ramat (1998) and R. Schmitt in CLI (1989) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.91.172 ( talk) 18:27, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
Because most academic sources including LINGUIST List classifies Avestan as Eastern Iranian and the same was its classification in the original version of this article prior to recent changes that go against any consensus, it is good I think to restore that classification in the article. Massa getae (talk) 07:52, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Move. We have consensus that this is the WP:COMMONNAME of the topic, and that the topic is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC of the term. Cúchullain t/ c 15:38, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Avestan language →
Avestan –
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. "
Avestan" redirects to the language page.
Shhhhwwww!! (
talk) 02:06, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@
Taivo,
Florian Blaschke, and
Maunus: please have a look at
this edit, which canged "Indo-Iranian" into "Indo-Aryan," witht he brilliant edit-summary "Facts. Iran didn't exist when these languages emerged!"
@
Hvarena: the existence or non-existence of Iran at the time of the Avestan language is completely irrelevant; this is about naming-conventions.
Joshua Jonathan -
Let's talk! 14:55, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
/info/en/?search=Indo-Aryan_languages
The map used in this artivle is factually wrong. Aryans lived west of the Indus river and the Hindus lived east of it. Thus Indo-Aryan languages, with Avestan, Vedic sanskrit and European ones, being subgroups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena ( talk • contribs) 15:12, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Avestan is NOT an Iranian language. You don't even belong to the religion Zoroastrianism nor are you Parsee/Aryan. What gives you the right to decide what is right or wrong regarding these topics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hvarena ( talk • contribs) 16:49, 24 September 2015 (UTC)
Would anyone have any issues were I to add a section like this to this wikipedia article?
The nearest thing to a direct living descendent of the language of Zarathushtra is known as Pashto, one of the two official languages of the nation of Afghanistan, the other being Dari-Persian.
Gathic or Old Avestan, the language of Zarathushtra, and Zend or Young Avestan, the language of Zarathushtra’s followers are classified as the Northeast variety of the Aryan language-subfamily. Old Avestan preserves larygneal hiatus like Vedic Sanskrit but more faithfully preserves archaic features not found in Vedic, nor Young Avestan making Vedic Sanskrit resemble Young Avestan more so than to Old Avestan.
Because of much of the editorial work happened during the Young Avestan period, Old Avestan has a strongly Young Avestan phonetic cast that represents secondary overlayering and adaption… For example, words beginning in Iranian with the disyllabic sequence * ĵu’a- (with hiatus from * ĵuHa-) still scan disyllabically in the Gathas; later this sequence became monosyllabic *ĵu̯a-, the ancestor of both Avestan zba- (the spelling in the transmitted text) and of Old Persian za-. All this indicates that the text preserves (underneath the modernizations) a stage from a time before the common ancestor of Avestan and Old Persian split. (If that is true, then Young Avestan actually is a lineal descendant of Old Avestan.) Thus the participle zbaiieṇte ‘for him invoking’ at Yasna 49.12 must be read *zuu̯aiieṇtē (probably really *zuu̯aiantai if one undoes the vowel changes.) – Benjamin Fortson, Indo-European Language and Culture pg. 230
Pashto is a new Northeast Aryan language spoken in Afghanistan among Pashtun tribesmen and according to James Darmesteter Pashto is a lineal descendent of Zend Avestan. Pashto /ʂ/, /ʐ/ ɳ / and / ṛ / are all developed from Avestan. Pashto ʂ is a reflex of Avestan sr, rs, r, š corresponding to PIE * kś. The Pashto liquid / ṛ / developed from Av. rt, rd, and the nasal rn. ʈ and ɖ, and kh, however, developed from Indic languages. The Pashtun homeland, Pouruta, is also mentioned in the Avesta. - http://people.ku.edu/~mmth/Four_varieties_of_Pashto.pdf
'We sacrifice unto Mithra, the lord of wide pastures, .... sleepless, and ever awake; 13. 'Who first of the heavenly Yazads [angels] reaches over the Hara, before the undying, swift-horsed sun; who, foremost in a golden array, takes hold of the beautiful summits, and from thence looks over the abode of the Aryans with a beneficent eye. 14. 'Where the valiant chiefs draw up their many troops in array; where the high mountains, rich in pastures and waters, yield plenty to the cattle; where the deep lakes, with salt waters, stand; where wide-flowing rivers swell and hurry towards Ishkata [Hindu Kush] and Pouruta [Pashtunistan], Mouru [Merv] and Haroyu [Herat], the Gava-Sughdha [Sogdiana or Samarkand] and Hvairizem [Chorosmia]; – Mehr Yasht 4.12-14 Mojobadshah ( talk) 23:27, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
Manus what is your issue exactly? that this evidence lacks citations or is incoherent. I've already indicated the sources and I'll provide citations. That should not be an issue. If you think what I've written is incoherent tell me how I can make this more coherent for you, otherwise once I provide the necessary citations I see no reason to post what is written. If you're not going to address my contribution above, and I do post something close to the above along with the citations which are already cited here, I don't want to receive threats from anyone that I may be banned. Mojobadshah ( talk) 13:31, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Manus, are you ok? Apart from your consistent antagonisms on how writing style which is purely subjective (and please do not make any more references to a contributors writing style on this forum. I don't want to have to report you for slander. If you have an issue with style all you got to do is provide constructive criticism as to how the writers style can be improved. There's no cause for slander according to your subjectivity.) - the first two paragraphs that I've provided are practically written verbatim from the sources which I've also cited or provided a link for. As far as the Pashto language being the nearest relation to the Avestan language - before I cite my sources and once I cited my sources would you have an issue with cited sources that support that: Pashto is the closest thing to a direct linguistic descendant of Avestan for several reasons though some may not be linguistic, rather extralinguistic. 1.) Whereas Avestan is an Old Northeast Iranian language - Pashto is a New Northeast Iranian language. 2.) Not only did the language that Zarathushtra and Vishtaspa are associated with designated "Avestan" take root in ancient Balkh, Afghanistan (where Pashto is mostly spoken today) a place-name recalled as Berekhda-[Aramaiti] in the Gathic Avestan language (according to Martin Huag) and Bakhdi in Young Avestan the birthplace and residence of Zarathushtra and Vishtaspa themselves, respectively 3.) according to Michael Witzel the Pashtuns live on part where the Avestan people did 4.) the Pashtuns live on part a majority of place-names attested to in the Avesta 4.) the Pashtuns maintain a few traditions which are remnants of the Avestan period eg. Noe Ruz, Haft Sin, etc... the former Zarathushtrian holy day cited by Mary Boyce as having been established by Zarathushtra himself 5.) its true that Ossetic is an East Iranian language and that the place-name Georgia itself is derived from the Avestan place-name Verekhana but if you mean to say that the Ossetian language is more authentically an descendant of Avestan on account of archaisms and it being defined a Middle Northeast Iranian language - the Pashto language preserves archaisms that even Ossetian does not - so you would not have a point here. Nonetheless I have no issue making a note that Ossetian is related to the Avestan language on account of these aforesaid facts. I also wouldn't have an issue were a note to be made that the linguistic descendant of Soghdian - Yaghanobi which is spoken in Tajikistan is also a New Northeast Iranian language related to the Avestan. However 5.) there are plenty of sources that show that the Soghdians or Yaghanobi were the East Iranian speaking people who were located in the region to the North of the Avestan people (otherwise and linguistically tied by national self-designation to the Gog of Hebrew scripture) whereas the Pashtuns are otherwise known as Afghans - the Avestan people and most likely even the national self-designation Afghan itself being tied to both the term Maga "the Avestan priestly caste or community" as well as the Magog of Hebrew scripture who were located in the region to the south of the ancient Tajikis - the majority of the territories attested to in the Avesta. It's true that there were ancient Tajikis affiliated with the religion of the Avesta, but they were not the people more directly associated with the Avestan language themselves. The people more directly associated with the Avesta would today be known as the Afghans or Pashtuns. So if I provided the citations supporting these facts are you going to have a problem? If so why? Mojobadshah ( talk) 12:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
As far as the 3rd paragraph - it may take a little more effort to make the connection between the Avestan place-name Pouruta, and the Pashtuns or their unofficial state "Pashtunistan" but there is also a host of evidence pointing to this connection. 1.) Martin Huag identifies Pouruta as "Parthia." Prof. Sims Wiliams connects the form Pashto to Persia." And if I'm not mistaken it's Michael Witzel who connects the form Parthia to the form Persia. One way or another the Parthians were not only East Iranian speakers just like the Pashto speakers (and not the Persian speakers). They designated themselves Ashakanian a national ethnonym which is connected to the national self-designation of Pashto speakers Afghan." They claimed to be the direct descendants of the Acheamenid dynasty assumingly because the Acheamenid dynasty was influenced by the Avestan people who descended from East Iran whereas there is no indication that the West Iranian Old Persian speakers were of the Avestan or Zoroastrian flavor until the introduction of the Avestan people to Western Iran. And although this next point is not entirely supportive of my point here the Parthians were designated themselves "Magi" known as Magusaeans in the Aramaic tongue (nd this ethnic self-designation was not only derived from Avestan but has been in use by Eastern Iranians themselves since times immemorial. Sufism for example could be interpreted as the continuum of the Avestan religion - and Sufism took root among the ancient Afghans (while Shiaism also a continuum is more authentically of the West Iranian flavor) Pashtun "holy-men" designate themselves with Avestan derived ethonyms such as [Pir-e-Moghan] as well as Khwaja (a term associated with Kohi-Khwaja - the site of Parthian Zarathusthrian inhabitance cited to be the future birthplace of Zarathushtra's descendant eg. this is the site of the legendary Parhtian Zarathushtrian known as Gondophares which is supported by archeological evidence which includes the remains of the historical figure's palace and temple). Mojobadshah ( talk) 13:27, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
We can't be too sure that it was known as Avestan before modern studies just because it was the language of the Avesta. I think there should be an "Etymology" category. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Out-typer ( talk • contribs) 21:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
According to IP, Avestan is not closely related to Sanskrit. Google quickly shows otherwise. For example, Christopher I Beckwith (2009), "Empires of the Silk Road":
Avestan's extensive case system and verbal conjugation system is not just similar to that of Vedic Sanskrit; it is almost identical to it. That is extremely odd. To demonstrate the similarity of the two languages, Indo-Iranian specialists have translated Avestan passages into Vedic Sanskrit, or “Old Indic”
Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Noticed that ə /ə/
and ə̄ /əː/
were changed to ə /ø/
and ə̄ /œː/
recently here and on
Avestan phonology. Is there anything to substantiate this?
The current chronology places Old Avestan into the 1st millennium BCE and Younger Avestan into the 1st millennium CE. While such a dating has been made in the past, it was in no way universally accepted and certainly doesn't represent the most recent ideas on the chronology of Avestan. For instance, both Rüdiger Schmitt (Die iranischen Sprachen in Geschichte und Gegenwart, 2000) and Prods Oktor Skjaervø (The Iranian Languages, 2009) place them much earlier. Such an early chronology for the Avestan period seems to have become a near consensus in the last decades. If no one presents any counter arguments, I would change the chronology in the article to reflect this. Kjansen86 ( talk) 18:23, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Hintze, Almut (2015). "Zarathustra's Time and Homeland - Linguistic Perspectives". In Stausberg, Michael (ed.). The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Zoroastrianismwhich is certainly a WP:RS. Similarly, Martin Litchfield West's Hymns of Zoroaster (2015) also supports the later dating of Old Avestan. Given the weakness of arguments in the sources you added, (no one disputes that Zoroaster predates the end of the Achaemenid empire, so about 90% of it is irrelevant) I've backed out these changes and returned the article to the status quo ante. - car chasm ( talk) 04:44, 5 October 2023 (UTC)