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The 'Assessment of capabilities' section is due for an update as part of the overall update of this article I'm (slowly!) working though. However, I'm a bit concerned that as the section can only be subjective and the range of opinions is limited it might be best to remove it all together. A key problem is that there simply aren't many sources of objective yet independent assessments of the ADF - the Australian Strategic Policy Institute is by far the best source, but only has a small number of analysts, the analysis published by the Kokoda Foundation is interesting but generally forward-looking rather than focused on the current ADF, I'm a bit skeptical about the Australian Defence Association's neutrality (and they mainly source the more detailed analysis they publish from ASPI or Kokoda Foundation analysts anyway) and the ANU's Strategic & Defence Studies Centre is primarily focused on strategic issues in Australia's region. I rather like having a section which summarises the ADF's current strengths and weaknesses, and ASPI has recently updated their analysis of the ADF, but would be interested in seeing other editors' thoughts on this topic. Nick-D ( talk) 01:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page:
Hi! I have a bit of a problem with the ADF article being categorised "1976 establishments in Australia" and "Military units and formations established in 1976". I would have less problem with a date of 1901, but even that has its problems. Obviously, "somebody" co-ordinated the three arms (well, initially two arms) of the military in the period 1901-1975 - but they didn't have the name "ADF". The ADF is still a somewhat nebulous concept - no-one is employed by the ADF; even the current Chief of the ADF is still employed by the Australian Army. I don't know what the best solution might be. (But removal of those two categories you added would remove the problem!) Your thoughts? Cheers, Pdfpdf ( talk) 13:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
(moved from User talk:Nick-D)
I edited the "Current Expenditure" section of the ADF article with the US concerns about Australian defence spending in 2012. I didn't leave an explanation because I'm relatively new to this and didn't know it was required. The articles cited are from 2012, which is much more recent than many in the overall article and I think still relevant because Australian defence spending has not been raised as a percentage of GDP since. I have taken the word "recent" out though, due to subjectivity.
Regarding your second comment, I think that American defence spending cuts since are irrelevant to the discussion. They have not retracted their critisism and neither has Tony Abbott so I consider that they both stand. Incidentally, even after cuts the Americans spend roughly double on defence as a proportion of GDP as Australia does.
Cheers. Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Abbott is the alternative Prime Minister of Australia and if he wins the next election will determine the shape of the ADF for years to come. That makes his opinion on what we should be spending on defence relevant in the leadup to the election - there is nothing to say that Wiki articles should only be "long term" - otherwise there wouldn't be articles on up coming elections at all. Therefore I have reverted it again. However, I take your point about the Liberals aspirational spending target so have referenced their policy in article.
Your point about the relevance of the American's point of view is subjective and I have reverted it. Donald Rumsfelt raised these concerns publicly while he was defence secretary and Richard Armitage has as well in the article that I have provided, as have other senior officials identified in the articles that I have provided . Personally I find the view of our major ally more relevant than an assessment of capability by some defence academic or thinktank, of the type quoted throughout the article, though others might disagree. The appropriate approach to resolving this is to report all opinions from a sources with a stake and expertise in the debate, make sure that it is identified as opinion and not fact, and then let the reader decide whether or not they agree. Otherwise take all the opinions, like the "assessment of capability" section, out of the article.
Reference 143 mentions critisism by the current US commander of Pacific Command, Admiral Samuel Lockyear, so you are incorrect that there are no named current officials who have made the complaint. I mention Rumsfeld and Armitage to demonstrate that this is an ongoing issue, and because they were both senior US officials with an interest in the alliance and who worked closely with Australia. I consider the views of our major ally on the capability of our defence force is relevant to an article relating to Australian defence policy, because they are the ones who might not come to assist us if they do not consider us to be pulling our weight. If the Americans are irrelevant to our defence, why would there even be a section on our foreign alliances in the article?
In any case, if you don't think it is relevant then it is your right to ignore that content. However, others may think differently and value the perspective of the American's and the Opposition. I think it is inappropriate for these articles to be censored because of one person's point of view. I reiterate that the appropriate treatment for these controversial issues is to put both sides of the argument and then let the reader decide. That is what I have done.
Thank you for the edits on the Liberal policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 08:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Note, the approach that I have proposed is consistent with the Wikipedia article policies on Neutrality (equal weighting, neutral tone) and Verifiability (major newspapers are considered to be a reliable source). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 08:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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1) citation 133 missing 2) percentage of women in ADF as of 2014-2015 financial year incorrectly calculated/misleading: not 30.6%, this figure has been arrived at by simply adding the two percentages of total permanent and total reserve women in the ADF (14.5% and 16.1% respectively). Thus the overall percentage should actually read as 15.3% as an average of the two figures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.158.189 ( talk) 09:18, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Is there many edits from Aust Gov computers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelawlollol ( talk • contribs) 08:01, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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I'm currently giving this article a - long overdue in many respects - major update. Please bear with me while the references are a mess, and content rapidly changes. And of course contributions from other editors would be great. Nick-D ( talk) 22:52, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hi Nick-D, you asked for any comments re ADF. I've added some suggestions/queries but I don't think any are urgent for tomorrow's main page appearance, except maybe the inconsistency in numbers in the TFA blurb.
Personnel numbers
general bits
Role
History
Current structure
Logistic support
Military intelligence and surveillance
Personnel
Defence expenditure
Domestic responsibilities
Refs
Image captions
Nick, sorry this is a bit "11th hour". Pls just ignore anything not useful. Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 08:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
The statement in the article and the infobox that the GG is the commander in chief of the ADF is supported by the source given. It's also supported by the GG's website: [2] ("Under Section 68 of the Constitution, the Governor-General is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Australian Defence Force, although in practice he or she acts only on the advice of Ministers of the Government.") and the Parliamentary Education Office [3]. Nick-D ( talk) 09:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Is data available on the number of living, retired ADF personnel? If so, could that data be added to this article please? -- Danimations ( talk) 06:24, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
? Olidikser ( talk) 21:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I've started the long-overdue process of updating this article. Contributions from other editors, and/or comments here about issues that need to be fixed or updates that are needed, would be very welcome. Nick-D ( talk) 09:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
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The 'Assessment of capabilities' section is due for an update as part of the overall update of this article I'm (slowly!) working though. However, I'm a bit concerned that as the section can only be subjective and the range of opinions is limited it might be best to remove it all together. A key problem is that there simply aren't many sources of objective yet independent assessments of the ADF - the Australian Strategic Policy Institute is by far the best source, but only has a small number of analysts, the analysis published by the Kokoda Foundation is interesting but generally forward-looking rather than focused on the current ADF, I'm a bit skeptical about the Australian Defence Association's neutrality (and they mainly source the more detailed analysis they publish from ASPI or Kokoda Foundation analysts anyway) and the ANU's Strategic & Defence Studies Centre is primarily focused on strategic issues in Australia's region. I rather like having a section which summarises the ADF's current strengths and weaknesses, and ASPI has recently updated their analysis of the ADF, but would be interested in seeing other editors' thoughts on this topic. Nick-D ( talk) 01:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page:
Hi! I have a bit of a problem with the ADF article being categorised "1976 establishments in Australia" and "Military units and formations established in 1976". I would have less problem with a date of 1901, but even that has its problems. Obviously, "somebody" co-ordinated the three arms (well, initially two arms) of the military in the period 1901-1975 - but they didn't have the name "ADF". The ADF is still a somewhat nebulous concept - no-one is employed by the ADF; even the current Chief of the ADF is still employed by the Australian Army. I don't know what the best solution might be. (But removal of those two categories you added would remove the problem!) Your thoughts? Cheers, Pdfpdf ( talk) 13:16, 9 February 2013 (UTC)
(moved from User talk:Nick-D)
I edited the "Current Expenditure" section of the ADF article with the US concerns about Australian defence spending in 2012. I didn't leave an explanation because I'm relatively new to this and didn't know it was required. The articles cited are from 2012, which is much more recent than many in the overall article and I think still relevant because Australian defence spending has not been raised as a percentage of GDP since. I have taken the word "recent" out though, due to subjectivity.
Regarding your second comment, I think that American defence spending cuts since are irrelevant to the discussion. They have not retracted their critisism and neither has Tony Abbott so I consider that they both stand. Incidentally, even after cuts the Americans spend roughly double on defence as a proportion of GDP as Australia does.
Cheers. Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 13:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Abbott is the alternative Prime Minister of Australia and if he wins the next election will determine the shape of the ADF for years to come. That makes his opinion on what we should be spending on defence relevant in the leadup to the election - there is nothing to say that Wiki articles should only be "long term" - otherwise there wouldn't be articles on up coming elections at all. Therefore I have reverted it again. However, I take your point about the Liberals aspirational spending target so have referenced their policy in article.
Your point about the relevance of the American's point of view is subjective and I have reverted it. Donald Rumsfelt raised these concerns publicly while he was defence secretary and Richard Armitage has as well in the article that I have provided, as have other senior officials identified in the articles that I have provided . Personally I find the view of our major ally more relevant than an assessment of capability by some defence academic or thinktank, of the type quoted throughout the article, though others might disagree. The appropriate approach to resolving this is to report all opinions from a sources with a stake and expertise in the debate, make sure that it is identified as opinion and not fact, and then let the reader decide whether or not they agree. Otherwise take all the opinions, like the "assessment of capability" section, out of the article.
Reference 143 mentions critisism by the current US commander of Pacific Command, Admiral Samuel Lockyear, so you are incorrect that there are no named current officials who have made the complaint. I mention Rumsfeld and Armitage to demonstrate that this is an ongoing issue, and because they were both senior US officials with an interest in the alliance and who worked closely with Australia. I consider the views of our major ally on the capability of our defence force is relevant to an article relating to Australian defence policy, because they are the ones who might not come to assist us if they do not consider us to be pulling our weight. If the Americans are irrelevant to our defence, why would there even be a section on our foreign alliances in the article?
In any case, if you don't think it is relevant then it is your right to ignore that content. However, others may think differently and value the perspective of the American's and the Opposition. I think it is inappropriate for these articles to be censored because of one person's point of view. I reiterate that the appropriate treatment for these controversial issues is to put both sides of the argument and then let the reader decide. That is what I have done.
Thank you for the edits on the Liberal policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 08:12, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
Note, the approach that I have proposed is consistent with the Wikipedia article policies on Neutrality (equal weighting, neutral tone) and Verifiability (major newspapers are considered to be a reliable source). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Crikeydick ( talk • contribs) 08:20, 13 April 2013 (UTC)
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1) citation 133 missing 2) percentage of women in ADF as of 2014-2015 financial year incorrectly calculated/misleading: not 30.6%, this figure has been arrived at by simply adding the two percentages of total permanent and total reserve women in the ADF (14.5% and 16.1% respectively). Thus the overall percentage should actually read as 15.3% as an average of the two figures — Preceding unsigned comment added by 27.33.158.189 ( talk) 09:18, 24 April 2016 (UTC)
Is there many edits from Aust Gov computers? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thelawlollol ( talk • contribs) 08:01, 3 July 2016 (UTC)
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I'm currently giving this article a - long overdue in many respects - major update. Please bear with me while the references are a mess, and content rapidly changes. And of course contributions from other editors would be great. Nick-D ( talk) 22:52, 1 January 2017 (UTC)
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Hi Nick-D, you asked for any comments re ADF. I've added some suggestions/queries but I don't think any are urgent for tomorrow's main page appearance, except maybe the inconsistency in numbers in the TFA blurb.
Personnel numbers
general bits
Role
History
Current structure
Logistic support
Military intelligence and surveillance
Personnel
Defence expenditure
Domestic responsibilities
Refs
Image captions
Nick, sorry this is a bit "11th hour". Pls just ignore anything not useful. Regards, JennyOz ( talk) 08:33, 25 January 2018 (UTC)
The statement in the article and the infobox that the GG is the commander in chief of the ADF is supported by the source given. It's also supported by the GG's website: [2] ("Under Section 68 of the Constitution, the Governor-General is also the Commander-in-Chief of the Australian Defence Force, although in practice he or she acts only on the advice of Ministers of the Government.") and the Parliamentary Education Office [3]. Nick-D ( talk) 09:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
Is data available on the number of living, retired ADF personnel? If so, could that data be added to this article please? -- Danimations ( talk) 06:24, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
? Olidikser ( talk) 21:22, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I've started the long-overdue process of updating this article. Contributions from other editors, and/or comments here about issues that need to be fixed or updates that are needed, would be very welcome. Nick-D ( talk) 09:14, 25 April 2023 (UTC)