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Not done "There is controversy amongst experts on whether ADHD persists into adulthood. " - really? Experts interviewed on tv here, just said its a proven fact that if you have it, you have it for life. -- IceHunter ( talk) 12:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it's the way it was said. Could we attribute this opinion to avoid undue weight issues? Who believes this? Is it a majority, a minority, singular or fringe opinion? A statement like, "A minority of experts believe that ADHD does not persist into adulthood", would be far more neutral. Anyone mind if I place an attribution tag behind this sentence?-- scuro ( talk) 20:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
{{ Deadlocked}} Do not agree with this move therefore moved back. Further discussion is needed. There is published research and articles on these.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
The Social Construct theory is a theory that states ADHD doesn't exist. A non-theory can't explain the causes of ADHD. Ditto with Neurodiversity, which believes there is no impairment. The low arousal theory is a theory that explains symptoms not the disorder, so this theory isn't appropriate in this section either. The Hunter-farmer theory is notable with the general public but is not seen as a credible theory within the scientific community. None of them belong in the Causes section and the Culture and Society section seemed like a good spot for them. Could you explain why you believe they belong in the Causes section?-- scuro ( talk) 19:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Neither of these are listed as causes, but if ADHD is a frontal cortex problem, direct injury there (or rebound injury), or disease affecting that area, would seem to be a cause. Doesn't happen? So infrequent it's not mentioned (or not RS mentions?) htom ( talk) 21:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
You may be right and I think this is a point that should be included if a ref can be found.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
We had this discussion previously to leave ADHD as decribed as "generally chronic" and consenus should be acheived before changed. ADHD is refered to as general chronic because about 50% of people with ADHD not longer have the diagnosis once they reach adulthood. see ref 8 and 9
Cystic fibrosis is chronic ( no one with CF grows out of it ). Viral infections are acute lasting weeks / months. ADHD is half way between.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 19:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Vannin is correct in that chronic means long lasting, not permanent or at least not necessarily permanent. If you check out this diff you will see that I changed it to reflect the ref or at least the abstract of the ref.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
These articles look like POV forks and probably need to be merged into this page. (Or perhaps, outright deleted.) Irbisgreif ( talk) 06:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Most of these theories are backed up by meta-analysis, secondary sourced reviews, systematic reviews and so forth. You seem to be using your own original research or going on scuro's own original research to decide what is fringe and what is majority. Original research cannot trump secondary sources in my view. I mean no offense or disrespect to you fences. We have just been having a lot of drama which lead to an arbcom and it is sad to see the original research being propagated onto the fringe noticeboard which is then endorsed by members of fringe noticeboard. The origional research arguments led to immense prolonged disruption which as stated led to an arbcom so is why I think that discussion must be kept focused on reliable sources. I hope that you understand and I sure the other editors here are happy to discuss any issues.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 14:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Scuro in your view what neutrality issues remain in the article?-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Simply look at all the threads on the page. Starting from the "Ambiguity in the culture section" thread, any thread that ends with my response is still unresolved or needs an action. That is except the "diagnosis section" and "lead paragraph" thread. That would be about ten threads.-- scuro ( talk)
Since the article has been edited quite a bit and some discussion has taken place since the original neutrality check tag has been added, it is probably worth relisting everything that needs attention. Let's start a list in this section. I would encourage the use of section tags instead of global tags, as it will make it easier to keep track what sections are currently still in need of attention. If you want to know where to find cleanup tags including merge, split, and inline tags, look here. To make it easier I copy pasted some here for reference. Sifaka talk 15:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for organizing this and actually tackling old and outstanding stuff. Bravo. To me a tag is only needed on sections or the top of an article if no forward progress is being made. I do like an inline tag for small things like a citation request. l find that easier then cutting and pasting the sentence and posting a new thread. I do also like the resolved box, as long as you don't mind if it is removed if someone still feels there is an issue. Lots of issues are minor ones, yes...lets move forward and get the little stuff out of the way. To do that can we simply post a thread heading? ie Controversy - really? If it's not resolved, usually you can tell by the last post in a thread.-- scuro ( talk) 22:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Lots needs to be done. Helping hands would be appreciated. There are lots of "not done" tags on this talk page. Feel free to comment or edit.-- scuro ( talk) 04:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
This section may require
copy editing. |
This section may be
too long to read and navigate comfortably. |
The
neutrality of this section is
disputed. |
For other tags - "Many of these cleanup tags require you to place "|article" as the first parameter when you use the tag at the top of an article. When you want the template to refer to just one section, however, you replace "|article" with "|section" (where the | is a wp:pipe key found on most keyboards as a capitalized backslash (\). See the specific template below to determine if such "section use" is supported and appropriate."
http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course034.php -- scuro ( talk) 13:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Done If it is agreed that the citation is of poor quality, it should be replaced or removed. 1)Currently citation 12 - Potochny D (October 2008). Dear Mary: My Life with ADHD. p. 334. This citation is a personal life story and supports statistics.-- scuro ( talk) 01:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Not done 2)Currently citation #56 - Adam James (2004) Clinical psychology publishes critique of ADHD diagnosis and use of medication on children published on Psychminded.co.uk Psychminded Ltd -supports this sentence, "while other researchers have found behavior typical of ADHD in children who have suffered violence and emotional abuse". The website appears to be citing an academic journal. The website appears to be a biased anti-psychiatry website. This citation should be removed and could be replaced by the journal.-- scuro ( talk) 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
3) Currently citation #58 - ^ "Sensory integration disorder". healthatoz.com. 2006-08-14. http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/sensory_integration_disorder.jsp. Retrieved on 2008-12-30. I'm not sure if the website is either reliable or neutral. -- scuro ( talk) 13:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
4) Currently citation #59 - ^ Arcos-Burgos M, Acosta MT (June 2007). "Tuning major gene variants conditioning human behavior: the anachronism of ADHD". Curr. Opin. Genet. Dev. 17 (3): 234–8. doi:10.1016/j.gde.2007.04.011. PMID 17467976. http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0959-437X(07)00076-7. This citation supports this sentence, "He believes that these conditions may be a result of adaptive behavior of the human species". You don't need an academic citation to support an opinion. It appears the citation seems to be stating scientific evidence supports the Hunter-Farmer theory. If this citation has any weight then this should be flushed out, and may take this theory out of the fringe category. If not, then it should be deleted, it would be extraneous.-- scuro ( talk) 13:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
5) Currently citation #62 - ^ Bailey, Eileen (2007-11-23). "ADHD and Creativity". Healthcentral.com. http://www.healthcentral.com/adhd/c/1443/16796/adhd-creativity. Retrieved on 2009-05-25. - The article is written by an "expert" whose qualification is that she is a "life coach". She is appears to be quoting academic studies. This website may not be a reliable and neutral website, it would be better to find a better source and delete this citation.-- scuro ( talk) 13:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
6-8) Currently citations #64-66
Hyperion has made the case [6] that these citations are fringe viewpoint.
9) Currently citation #23 - ^ a b c d e f g h i "CG72 Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): full guideline" (PDF). NHS. 24 September 2008. http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG72FullGuideline.pdf. Retrieved on 2008-10-08. - Hyperion pointed out that that citation is used to support the SCT of ADHD yet the term can't be found in the guideline. [7]-- scuro ( talk) 22:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
10) Currently citation #67 - ^ a b c "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder is a neurologically based disorder". Incrediblehorizons.com. http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/Understanding%20Add.htm. Retrieved on 2009-05-25. [year needed] - this is a commercial website and is inappropriate. The home page is http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/ -- scuro ( talk) 03:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
11) Currently citation #68 - "ADHD". Sci.csuhayward.edu. http://www.sci.csuhayward.edu/~dsandberg/CHLDPATHLECTS/ChldPathLect05ADHD.htm. Retrieved on 2009-05-25 - when one goes to this link we have point form lecture notes as noted in the URL address. A better source is needed.-- scuro ( talk) 03:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
12) Currently citation #83 - ^ Armstrong, Thomas (1999). MAVM2K6SdAfcSf0nGYQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1 Add/Adhd Alternatives in the Classroom. ASCD. pp. 3–5. ISBN 9780871203595. http://books.google.ca/books?id=EzXt100I4A8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=National+Institute+of+Mental+Health+ADHD+PET+scan&source=web&ots=GlP-TIeiqN&sig=JADzxFyez- MAVM2K6SdAfcSf0nGYQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1. - Thomas Armstrong wrote the Myth of ADHD. The book cited is fringe opinion and is supposed to support this statement, "The significance of the research by Zametkin has not been determined and neither his group nor any other has been able to replicate the 1990 results". He is not a researcher in the field and doesn't have the background to make a qualified judgement. Since there are three citations supporting the statement, this is an easy delete.-- scuro ( talk) 13:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
13-15)Currently citations 86-88
16) Currently citation #35 - ^ a b c "University of Central Florida Study: Hyperactivity Enables Children With ADHD to Stay Alert". Ascribe Newswire: Health, 3/9/2009. - This citation is for "Ascribe". The study can be seen for free on the sciencedaily website [9]-- scuro ( talk) 18:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
17) Currently citation #117 - ^ a b "What is the evidence for using CNS stimulants to treat ADHD in children? | Therapeutics Initiative". http://www.ti.ubc.ca/letter69. This is not a notable publication and appears to be biased, as noted by Wikiproject Medicine [10] The citation supports a statement already supported by 4 other citations. It's a no brainer that this citation should be removed.-- scuro ( talk) 18:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
18) Currently citation #70 - # ^ "Evaluation and diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children". December 5, 2007. http://www.uptodate.com/online/content/topic.do?topicKey=behavior/8293&selectedTitle=4~150&source=search_result. Retrieved on 2008-09-15. - Can only access this through Uptodate. It may be legit but couldn't find any exact matches of the title on google except through wikipedia or Uptodate.-- scuro ( talk) 01:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
19) Currently citation #133 - ^ a b Holtmann M, Stadler C, Leins U, Strehl U, Birbaumer N, Poustka F (July 2004). "[Neurofeedback for the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in childhood and adolescence]" (in German). Z Kinder Jugendpsychiatr Psychother 32 (3): 187–200. doi:10.1024/1422-4917.32.3.187. PMID 15357015. Study is linked go German version only. English version here. [11]-- scuro ( talk) 22:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
After Unionhawk plead that my tags not be removed [12] , literaturegeek removed a tag once more. She did start a thread asking what issues remained, to which I responded. [13] There are almost a dozen issues that need action or need to be resolved, and I've only just begun looking at the citations.-- scuro ( talk) 04:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've added tags to the threads so you can see where work needs to be done.-- scuro ( talk) 04:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Currently we have There is no physical examination for ADHD. It thus remains a psychological diagnosis. And I agree there is no physical exam but there is ALSO not radiological imaging and no laboratory tests for ADHD. I think all should be mentioned. I agree with Scuro however that we should mention how ADHD is diagnosed before we mention how it is not diagnosed. What we had was ADHD is diagnosed via a psychological assessment with physical examination, radiological imaging, and laboratory tests only used to rule out other potential possibilities. and this is what I think we should go with. -- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I think that everyone involved would do well to please read the entry on Differential Diagnosis. This is a basic medical concept that is used in all medical specialties, including psychiatry. The Differential Diagnosis process here is no different than anywhere else. There are plenty of medical conditions that are diagnosed based on examining the patient, taking patient history, and asking the patient to describe the problems that they have been having. As with ADHD, input from friends and family members is often used in aiding many diagnoses.
For example, I recently injured my ankle. If it's anything like my last ankle injury (a strained achilles tendon), then what will happen when I see a physician next week is that he/she will examine my ankle, ask me what I did to injure it, ask me how it felt, what kind of pain, where did it hurt, were there any other symptoms, etc. It is possible that they might order an X-Ray just to rule out any broken bones (just as one might run tests for hypothyroidism or hypoglycemia to rule those out when diagnosing ADHD), but assuming that the X-Ray doesn't find anything wrong, the doc will probably give me some prescription-strength NSAIDs, an ice pack, and an order for physical therapy if necessary.
But...but....the doc didn't do any objective tests, how can be be sure that it's a tendon strain? Sure, he ruled out a break, but he didn't do any sort of diagnostic testing here. So is my ankle injury not real? Did my doc screw up?
And what about when I had a sinus infection a few months ago. I went to see my doc, she asked me what symptoms I was having, when they started, etc. She asked me what color my snot was (dark greenish-brown, and lots of it, as I showed her), and then she prescribed me some antibiotics and told me to come back in two weeks, unless I started getting worse, in which case obviously I should come back sooner.
So did my doc screw up that time, too? I mean, all the doc did was ask about my symptoms. All the doc did was take a list of symptoms, and use them to rule out certain conditions (allergies, influenza, etc), and concluded that the symptoms matched those of a sinus infection, and then....of all the things...my doc went and prescribed medication for this made-up condition. I mean, it must be made up, right? My doc didn't do any tests at all.
So why is it that these diagnoses are somehow more valid than a psychiatric diagnosis? Same basic principle, you talk to the patient, take their history, ask about their symptoms, not to mention just generally observing and examining the patient for any useful information. For example, people with ADHD are often forgetful, so noticing that the patient's shoes are untied, their hair is uncombed, they're constantly checking to make sure they've remembered everything, or perhaps they even have to excuse themselves because they left their keys in their car or something.
But yes, I can see how this all might be a bit misleading if one is not familiar with the concept of a Differential Diagnosis. After all, popular culture gives us TV shows like "CSI" where you can run some sample through a computer and immediately find out everything that you need to know. We're told that high-tech innovations have given us some new certainty about things....but the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of medical diagnoses tend to be made by simple patient history. Hyperion35 ( talk) 18:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I posted the issue on the Neutral point of view noticeboard requesting further opinions. [14] Sifaka talk 15:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
This tag has been placed after "developmental disorder" citation in the first sentence. There are several links to this citation including pub med. Is the tag justified and can someone explain when such a tag would be justified?-- scuro ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This issue was brought up a few months ago and was never resolved. As I understand it, SCT is a theory which believes that ADHD has been fabricated. Typically Big Pharma or Psychiatry is seen as the creator of this "myth". The theory goes that once the myth is accepted by institutions, it is then validated by society. I could be wrong on the exact mechanisms of the theory here, but in a nutshell the belief is that ADHD is fake. This theory is a fringe theory of ADHD and does not belong on this page.-- scuro ( talk) 13:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lz7If3xTSCYC&pg=PA87&dq=isbn:0415360374#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"What purpose or purposes is served by the rephrasing of these issues into the language of medicine, pathology, or disease? Since the medical concepts and terminologies per-se add no value to the explanation of problems in communities - whether violence or other issues - it must be that such concepts are invoked because of the social functions that they serve."
http://books.google.com/books?id=btZuF51uuHYC&dq=isbn%3A0745638589&q=ADHD#v=snippet&q=ADHD&f=false (page 145)
Oh, also, this section cites an NHS report on ADHD. A search of the NHS report for "Social Construct" yielded zero results. However, the report did contain a chapter titled "Position Statement on the Validity of ADHD." This chapter of this source pretty much eviscerates the entire "Social Construct" hypothesis. It can be found here:
http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG72FullGuideline.pdf (page 131)
Hyperion35 ( talk) 14:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Here are a couple papers supporting the existance of the social construct theory of ADHD.
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cite journal}}
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help)A passage from this paper:
A biopsychosocial construction has been proposed likewise for ADHD, particularly in the UK (e.g. Singh, 2001; Cooper, 2001) whereby a range of factors are considered to interact in any individual to bring about the condition of ADHD. Thus while an individual may have a biological propensity towards ADHD through genetics, only through particular interactions with the environment would such biological propensity be expressed (e.g. through poor parental coping; low socioeconomic status). In this account of ADHD, psychological factors as well as the socio-cultural environment are given greater credence than they were in purely biomedical constructions.
I can get full copies if anyone wishes. The fact that Annals of Clinical Psychiatry recognize this opinion means that 1) it is a minority opinion not a fringe opinion 2) it is verifiable.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
That is not what the social construct theory of ADHD is first of all. No one says it is fake. Many accept it to some degree. The papers above discuss social influences / causes of ADHD. This section should be expanded to discuss were we make the cuts offs between normal and mentally ill. The social construct theory is just a more extreme version of this. But read the reference above.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 05:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
James, in reading through the papers that you are citing here, I am not actually seeing anything to back up your assertions. For example, you cited this paper: http://66.102.1.104/scholar?q=cache:nYP5v7n7DuYJ:scholar.google.com/+causes+of+ADHD&hl=en--
First off, this was a survey primarily of elementary school teachers. While these teachers may be very adept at dealing with students with ADHD, their opinions are of absolutely no relevance as to the question of causes. They have no training or experience in neuroanatomy, neurology, brain development, etc. Furthermore, the survey involved a questionnaire with vignettes describing fictitious students whose symptoms were supposed to be similar to those of ADHD. This is fairly irrelevant. What you are actually citing this for is the section in which this paper cites *other* papers as to what *those* papers said regarding causes. For example: "In a more recent study, Frankenberger, Farmer, Parker, and Cermak (2001) reported that school psychologists generally agreed that ADHD was caused by brain malfunction."
You also cite this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10798827
Let's look at what they actually say:
"The critics view the underlying reason for the "epidemic" as societal, due to our modern pace of living, our competitive society, and our consumer emphasis. Rejoinders to and clarifications of the more tangible points of the critics are presented, followed by a discussion of some more practical and legitimate concerns for researchers in this area."
Sounds to me as if they are summarizing the "critics" of ADHD, followed by eviscerating those arguments....and here's the kicker...if they follow it with a discussion of "more practical and legitimate concerns," then don't you think that this implies that the concerns of these "critics" are impractical and illegitimate? It sounds to me as though this paper is implying that the Social Construct proponents are in fact fringe and are not of concern for the vast majority of researchers.
And then there's the first link: http://www.jstor.org/pss/3196091?cookieSet=1
This is an article discussing the manner in which lay persons use (and misuse) ADHD and related terms. Specifically:
"This article examines the ways that meanings about the concept of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) are socially constructed within the everyday language use of laypersons. The 224 language events referencing ADHD, including media sources, were recorded in journals by student assistants. These data reveal five patterned ways that lay persons appropriate and interpret discourses originating in medical and school communities of practice."
This has absolutely nothing to do with any Social Construct theory of ADHD. It is (ironically) about the ways in which lay persons interpret and/or misinterpret medical data, and the language that lay persons use when discussing these issues. This is really not relevant at all to the causes of ADHD. If anything, its relevance is to the way that lay persons tend to MISUNDERSTAND complex medical issues such as ADHD, and the different ways in which lay persons will interpret medical discussions.
The thesis paper is, by definition, original research.
And finally, the paper in JCN is....well I suppose that it might support your contention that more neurobiological evidence is needed, although I'm really not sure how the author reached her conclusion. However, it says absolutely nothing about any Social Construct theory nor does it conclude that ADHD is a social construct.
As for your question: "What justification needs to be found to show that some within the scietific community beleive social and environmental factors may contribute to / affect ADHD?"
Well, for starters, the standard is more than just "some." There are "some" people in the scientific community who are creationists, for example. No really, there are. That doesn't change the fact that it's practically the classic case of a fringe theory. For starters, you'd have to show some level of consensus on that, not just "some." "Some" is also a classic weasel word. "Some say" "Some believe" etc. Finally, while many papers do discuss social and environmental factors, this is most definitely different from claiming that ADHD is a social construct. When researchers talk about social and environmental factors, usually it is in the context of behavioral interventions and structured study environments, etc. Other situations in which social and environmental factors are discussed would be with regards to twin concordance studies. Twin studies have shown that one identical twin will have a very high but not 100% likelyhood of having ADHD if the other twin does. This implies that there may be social factors that act *in addition* to genetic susceptibility. However, it is important to understand the difference between this, and the hypothesis that ADHD itself is merely a social construct.
Please, I do not doubt that you are acting in good faith, but I really do not believe that you understand much of the evidence that you are presenting. Also, your statement about wanting more discussion about "were we make the cuts offs between normal and mentally ill" implies that perhaps you are not familiar with the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for ADHD. Those criteria are quite clear that the cutoff exists where the symptoms result in significant impairment, that at least some symptoms must have been present before the age of 7, and that both the symptoms and impairment must exist in at least two separate settings (ie at school and at home). Now, it is certainly possible that the criteria used in other countries is not as specific...although if anything, the ICD and other international diagnostic criteria are even more restrictive. Regardless, my point is that the diagnostic criteria (which ought to be mentioned) are themselves fairly specific about where the cutoff is between normal and abnormal.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a reference, designed to distill and summarize basic information about various subjects. It is not, among other things, a forum for airing fringe opinions that are not reflected by most major medical organizations. How much weight does the Epilepsy article give to the theory that seizures were caused by curses from witches or possession by evil spirits? ~ Hyperion35 ( talk) 09:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link) It will help you understand what I am getting at.
Errrm, James, did you mean Timmins or Timimi? Timimi has some pretty long-standing ties to Scientology and their CCHR front group. The full text of that paper can be found here:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/184/1/8
Note that it is a debate paper, not a peer-reviewed paper. They wanted to show opposing sides to an issue, but the fact that Timimi was the best they could find, and the fact that he did not disclose his ties to CCHR in that paper, ought to raise some red flags. Also note that he mostly cites himself (along with another Scientologist, Peter Breggin). His only non-Scientologist citations are simply with regard to stimulant toxicity.
Here's one particular gem that Timimi mentions in his conclusion in the article that you cite (sourced to himself):
"By acting as agents of social control and stifling diversity in children, we are victimising millions of children and their families by putting children on highly addictive drugs that have no proven long-term benefit."
Agents of social control? Victimising millions of children? Does this really sound like rational academic discourse?
Look, I'm not criticizing you, you're not responsible for what Timimi writes, but I do want to impress upon you the fact that Sami Timimi is involved with Scientology's CCHR front group, and ask whether you think that this might make him a less than desirable source, as well as whether this might imply that he is not all that "mainstream" (lord help us the day that Scientologists are considered "mainstream.") ~ Hyperion35 ( talk) 20:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Not done "There is controversy amongst experts on whether ADHD persists into adulthood. " - really? Experts interviewed on tv here, just said its a proven fact that if you have it, you have it for life. -- IceHunter ( talk) 12:13, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Perhaps it's the way it was said. Could we attribute this opinion to avoid undue weight issues? Who believes this? Is it a majority, a minority, singular or fringe opinion? A statement like, "A minority of experts believe that ADHD does not persist into adulthood", would be far more neutral. Anyone mind if I place an attribution tag behind this sentence?-- scuro ( talk) 20:12, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
{{ Deadlocked}} Do not agree with this move therefore moved back. Further discussion is needed. There is published research and articles on these.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 17:27, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
The Social Construct theory is a theory that states ADHD doesn't exist. A non-theory can't explain the causes of ADHD. Ditto with Neurodiversity, which believes there is no impairment. The low arousal theory is a theory that explains symptoms not the disorder, so this theory isn't appropriate in this section either. The Hunter-farmer theory is notable with the general public but is not seen as a credible theory within the scientific community. None of them belong in the Causes section and the Culture and Society section seemed like a good spot for them. Could you explain why you believe they belong in the Causes section?-- scuro ( talk) 19:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Neither of these are listed as causes, but if ADHD is a frontal cortex problem, direct injury there (or rebound injury), or disease affecting that area, would seem to be a cause. Doesn't happen? So infrequent it's not mentioned (or not RS mentions?) htom ( talk) 21:52, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
You may be right and I think this is a point that should be included if a ref can be found.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
We had this discussion previously to leave ADHD as decribed as "generally chronic" and consenus should be acheived before changed. ADHD is refered to as general chronic because about 50% of people with ADHD not longer have the diagnosis once they reach adulthood. see ref 8 and 9
Cystic fibrosis is chronic ( no one with CF grows out of it ). Viral infections are acute lasting weeks / months. ADHD is half way between.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 19:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
Vannin is correct in that chronic means long lasting, not permanent or at least not necessarily permanent. If you check out this diff you will see that I changed it to reflect the ref or at least the abstract of the ref.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 23:06, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
These articles look like POV forks and probably need to be merged into this page. (Or perhaps, outright deleted.) Irbisgreif ( talk) 06:27, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Most of these theories are backed up by meta-analysis, secondary sourced reviews, systematic reviews and so forth. You seem to be using your own original research or going on scuro's own original research to decide what is fringe and what is majority. Original research cannot trump secondary sources in my view. I mean no offense or disrespect to you fences. We have just been having a lot of drama which lead to an arbcom and it is sad to see the original research being propagated onto the fringe noticeboard which is then endorsed by members of fringe noticeboard. The origional research arguments led to immense prolonged disruption which as stated led to an arbcom so is why I think that discussion must be kept focused on reliable sources. I hope that you understand and I sure the other editors here are happy to discuss any issues.-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 14:38, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Scuro in your view what neutrality issues remain in the article?-- Literaturegeek | T@1k? 18:45, 26 July 2009 (UTC)
Simply look at all the threads on the page. Starting from the "Ambiguity in the culture section" thread, any thread that ends with my response is still unresolved or needs an action. That is except the "diagnosis section" and "lead paragraph" thread. That would be about ten threads.-- scuro ( talk)
Since the article has been edited quite a bit and some discussion has taken place since the original neutrality check tag has been added, it is probably worth relisting everything that needs attention. Let's start a list in this section. I would encourage the use of section tags instead of global tags, as it will make it easier to keep track what sections are currently still in need of attention. If you want to know where to find cleanup tags including merge, split, and inline tags, look here. To make it easier I copy pasted some here for reference. Sifaka talk 15:30, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for organizing this and actually tackling old and outstanding stuff. Bravo. To me a tag is only needed on sections or the top of an article if no forward progress is being made. I do like an inline tag for small things like a citation request. l find that easier then cutting and pasting the sentence and posting a new thread. I do also like the resolved box, as long as you don't mind if it is removed if someone still feels there is an issue. Lots of issues are minor ones, yes...lets move forward and get the little stuff out of the way. To do that can we simply post a thread heading? ie Controversy - really? If it's not resolved, usually you can tell by the last post in a thread.-- scuro ( talk) 22:58, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Lots needs to be done. Helping hands would be appreciated. There are lots of "not done" tags on this talk page. Feel free to comment or edit.-- scuro ( talk) 04:43, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
This section may require
copy editing. |
This section may be
too long to read and navigate comfortably. |
The
neutrality of this section is
disputed. |
For other tags - "Many of these cleanup tags require you to place "|article" as the first parameter when you use the tag at the top of an article. When you want the template to refer to just one section, however, you replace "|article" with "|section" (where the | is a wp:pipe key found on most keyboards as a capitalized backslash (\). See the specific template below to determine if such "section use" is supported and appropriate."
http://www.continuingedcourses.net/active/courses/course034.php -- scuro ( talk) 13:48, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Done If it is agreed that the citation is of poor quality, it should be replaced or removed. 1)Currently citation 12 - Potochny D (October 2008). Dear Mary: My Life with ADHD. p. 334. This citation is a personal life story and supports statistics.-- scuro ( talk) 01:53, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Not done 2)Currently citation #56 - Adam James (2004) Clinical psychology publishes critique of ADHD diagnosis and use of medication on children published on Psychminded.co.uk Psychminded Ltd -supports this sentence, "while other researchers have found behavior typical of ADHD in children who have suffered violence and emotional abuse". The website appears to be citing an academic journal. The website appears to be a biased anti-psychiatry website. This citation should be removed and could be replaced by the journal.-- scuro ( talk) 12:50, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
3) Currently citation #58 - ^ "Sensory integration disorder". healthatoz.com. 2006-08-14. http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/common/standard/transform.jsp?requestURI=/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/sensory_integration_disorder.jsp. Retrieved on 2008-12-30. I'm not sure if the website is either reliable or neutral. -- scuro ( talk) 13:00, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
4) Currently citation #59 - ^ Arcos-Burgos M, Acosta MT (June 2007). "Tuning major gene variants conditioning human behavior: the anachronism of ADHD". Curr. Opin. Genet. Dev. 17 (3): 234–8. doi:10.1016/j.gde.2007.04.011. PMID 17467976. http://linkinghub.elsevier.com/retrieve/pii/S0959-437X(07)00076-7. This citation supports this sentence, "He believes that these conditions may be a result of adaptive behavior of the human species". You don't need an academic citation to support an opinion. It appears the citation seems to be stating scientific evidence supports the Hunter-Farmer theory. If this citation has any weight then this should be flushed out, and may take this theory out of the fringe category. If not, then it should be deleted, it would be extraneous.-- scuro ( talk) 13:37, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
5) Currently citation #62 - ^ Bailey, Eileen (2007-11-23). "ADHD and Creativity". Healthcentral.com. http://www.healthcentral.com/adhd/c/1443/16796/adhd-creativity. Retrieved on 2009-05-25. - The article is written by an "expert" whose qualification is that she is a "life coach". She is appears to be quoting academic studies. This website may not be a reliable and neutral website, it would be better to find a better source and delete this citation.-- scuro ( talk) 13:52, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
6-8) Currently citations #64-66
Hyperion has made the case [6] that these citations are fringe viewpoint.
9) Currently citation #23 - ^ a b c d e f g h i "CG72 Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder (ADHD): full guideline" (PDF). NHS. 24 September 2008. http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG72FullGuideline.pdf. Retrieved on 2008-10-08. - Hyperion pointed out that that citation is used to support the SCT of ADHD yet the term can't be found in the guideline. [7]-- scuro ( talk) 22:53, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
10) Currently citation #67 - ^ a b c "Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder is a neurologically based disorder". Incrediblehorizons.com. http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/Understanding%20Add.htm. Retrieved on 2009-05-25. [year needed] - this is a commercial website and is inappropriate. The home page is http://www.incrediblehorizons.com/ -- scuro ( talk) 03:42, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
11) Currently citation #68 - "ADHD". Sci.csuhayward.edu. http://www.sci.csuhayward.edu/~dsandberg/CHLDPATHLECTS/ChldPathLect05ADHD.htm. Retrieved on 2009-05-25 - when one goes to this link we have point form lecture notes as noted in the URL address. A better source is needed.-- scuro ( talk) 03:52, 6 August 2009 (UTC)
12) Currently citation #83 - ^ Armstrong, Thomas (1999). MAVM2K6SdAfcSf0nGYQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1 Add/Adhd Alternatives in the Classroom. ASCD. pp. 3–5. ISBN 9780871203595. http://books.google.ca/books?id=EzXt100I4A8C&pg=PA3&lpg=PA3&dq=National+Institute+of+Mental+Health+ADHD+PET+scan&source=web&ots=GlP-TIeiqN&sig=JADzxFyez- MAVM2K6SdAfcSf0nGYQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA3,M1. - Thomas Armstrong wrote the Myth of ADHD. The book cited is fringe opinion and is supposed to support this statement, "The significance of the research by Zametkin has not been determined and neither his group nor any other has been able to replicate the 1990 results". He is not a researcher in the field and doesn't have the background to make a qualified judgement. Since there are three citations supporting the statement, this is an easy delete.-- scuro ( talk) 13:57, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
13-15)Currently citations 86-88
16) Currently citation #35 - ^ a b c "University of Central Florida Study: Hyperactivity Enables Children With ADHD to Stay Alert". Ascribe Newswire: Health, 3/9/2009. - This citation is for "Ascribe". The study can be seen for free on the sciencedaily website [9]-- scuro ( talk) 18:06, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
17) Currently citation #117 - ^ a b "What is the evidence for using CNS stimulants to treat ADHD in children? | Therapeutics Initiative". http://www.ti.ubc.ca/letter69. This is not a notable publication and appears to be biased, as noted by Wikiproject Medicine [10] The citation supports a statement already supported by 4 other citations. It's a no brainer that this citation should be removed.-- scuro ( talk) 18:39, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
18) Currently citation #70 - # ^ "Evaluation and diagnosis of attention deficit hyperactivity disorder in children". December 5, 2007. http://www.uptodate.com/online/content/topic.do?topicKey=behavior/8293&selectedTitle=4~150&source=search_result. Retrieved on 2008-09-15. - Can only access this through Uptodate. It may be legit but couldn't find any exact matches of the title on google except through wikipedia or Uptodate.-- scuro ( talk) 01:57, 9 August 2009 (UTC)
19) Currently citation #133 - ^ a b Holtmann M, Stadler C, Leins U, Strehl U, Birbaumer N, Poustka F (July 2004). "[Neurofeedback for the treatment of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) in childhood and adolescence]" (in German). Z Kinder Jugendpsychiatr Psychother 32 (3): 187–200. doi:10.1024/1422-4917.32.3.187. PMID 15357015. Study is linked go German version only. English version here. [11]-- scuro ( talk) 22:57, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
After Unionhawk plead that my tags not be removed [12] , literaturegeek removed a tag once more. She did start a thread asking what issues remained, to which I responded. [13] There are almost a dozen issues that need action or need to be resolved, and I've only just begun looking at the citations.-- scuro ( talk) 04:43, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
I've added tags to the threads so you can see where work needs to be done.-- scuro ( talk) 04:46, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
Currently we have There is no physical examination for ADHD. It thus remains a psychological diagnosis. And I agree there is no physical exam but there is ALSO not radiological imaging and no laboratory tests for ADHD. I think all should be mentioned. I agree with Scuro however that we should mention how ADHD is diagnosed before we mention how it is not diagnosed. What we had was ADHD is diagnosed via a psychological assessment with physical examination, radiological imaging, and laboratory tests only used to rule out other potential possibilities. and this is what I think we should go with. -- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 14:46, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
I think that everyone involved would do well to please read the entry on Differential Diagnosis. This is a basic medical concept that is used in all medical specialties, including psychiatry. The Differential Diagnosis process here is no different than anywhere else. There are plenty of medical conditions that are diagnosed based on examining the patient, taking patient history, and asking the patient to describe the problems that they have been having. As with ADHD, input from friends and family members is often used in aiding many diagnoses.
For example, I recently injured my ankle. If it's anything like my last ankle injury (a strained achilles tendon), then what will happen when I see a physician next week is that he/she will examine my ankle, ask me what I did to injure it, ask me how it felt, what kind of pain, where did it hurt, were there any other symptoms, etc. It is possible that they might order an X-Ray just to rule out any broken bones (just as one might run tests for hypothyroidism or hypoglycemia to rule those out when diagnosing ADHD), but assuming that the X-Ray doesn't find anything wrong, the doc will probably give me some prescription-strength NSAIDs, an ice pack, and an order for physical therapy if necessary.
But...but....the doc didn't do any objective tests, how can be be sure that it's a tendon strain? Sure, he ruled out a break, but he didn't do any sort of diagnostic testing here. So is my ankle injury not real? Did my doc screw up?
And what about when I had a sinus infection a few months ago. I went to see my doc, she asked me what symptoms I was having, when they started, etc. She asked me what color my snot was (dark greenish-brown, and lots of it, as I showed her), and then she prescribed me some antibiotics and told me to come back in two weeks, unless I started getting worse, in which case obviously I should come back sooner.
So did my doc screw up that time, too? I mean, all the doc did was ask about my symptoms. All the doc did was take a list of symptoms, and use them to rule out certain conditions (allergies, influenza, etc), and concluded that the symptoms matched those of a sinus infection, and then....of all the things...my doc went and prescribed medication for this made-up condition. I mean, it must be made up, right? My doc didn't do any tests at all.
So why is it that these diagnoses are somehow more valid than a psychiatric diagnosis? Same basic principle, you talk to the patient, take their history, ask about their symptoms, not to mention just generally observing and examining the patient for any useful information. For example, people with ADHD are often forgetful, so noticing that the patient's shoes are untied, their hair is uncombed, they're constantly checking to make sure they've remembered everything, or perhaps they even have to excuse themselves because they left their keys in their car or something.
But yes, I can see how this all might be a bit misleading if one is not familiar with the concept of a Differential Diagnosis. After all, popular culture gives us TV shows like "CSI" where you can run some sample through a computer and immediately find out everything that you need to know. We're told that high-tech innovations have given us some new certainty about things....but the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of medical diagnoses tend to be made by simple patient history. Hyperion35 ( talk) 18:31, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
I posted the issue on the Neutral point of view noticeboard requesting further opinions. [14] Sifaka talk 15:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)
This tag has been placed after "developmental disorder" citation in the first sentence. There are several links to this citation including pub med. Is the tag justified and can someone explain when such a tag would be justified?-- scuro ( talk) 18:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
This issue was brought up a few months ago and was never resolved. As I understand it, SCT is a theory which believes that ADHD has been fabricated. Typically Big Pharma or Psychiatry is seen as the creator of this "myth". The theory goes that once the myth is accepted by institutions, it is then validated by society. I could be wrong on the exact mechanisms of the theory here, but in a nutshell the belief is that ADHD is fake. This theory is a fringe theory of ADHD and does not belong on this page.-- scuro ( talk) 13:34, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Lz7If3xTSCYC&pg=PA87&dq=isbn:0415360374#v=onepage&q=&f=false
"What purpose or purposes is served by the rephrasing of these issues into the language of medicine, pathology, or disease? Since the medical concepts and terminologies per-se add no value to the explanation of problems in communities - whether violence or other issues - it must be that such concepts are invoked because of the social functions that they serve."
http://books.google.com/books?id=btZuF51uuHYC&dq=isbn%3A0745638589&q=ADHD#v=snippet&q=ADHD&f=false (page 145)
Oh, also, this section cites an NHS report on ADHD. A search of the NHS report for "Social Construct" yielded zero results. However, the report did contain a chapter titled "Position Statement on the Validity of ADHD." This chapter of this source pretty much eviscerates the entire "Social Construct" hypothesis. It can be found here:
http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/pdf/CG72FullGuideline.pdf (page 131)
Hyperion35 ( talk) 14:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Here are a couple papers supporting the existance of the social construct theory of ADHD.
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help)A passage from this paper:
A biopsychosocial construction has been proposed likewise for ADHD, particularly in the UK (e.g. Singh, 2001; Cooper, 2001) whereby a range of factors are considered to interact in any individual to bring about the condition of ADHD. Thus while an individual may have a biological propensity towards ADHD through genetics, only through particular interactions with the environment would such biological propensity be expressed (e.g. through poor parental coping; low socioeconomic status). In this account of ADHD, psychological factors as well as the socio-cultural environment are given greater credence than they were in purely biomedical constructions.
I can get full copies if anyone wishes. The fact that Annals of Clinical Psychiatry recognize this opinion means that 1) it is a minority opinion not a fringe opinion 2) it is verifiable.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 03:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
That is not what the social construct theory of ADHD is first of all. No one says it is fake. Many accept it to some degree. The papers above discuss social influences / causes of ADHD. This section should be expanded to discuss were we make the cuts offs between normal and mentally ill. The social construct theory is just a more extreme version of this. But read the reference above.-- Doc James ( talk · contribs · email) 05:25, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
James, in reading through the papers that you are citing here, I am not actually seeing anything to back up your assertions. For example, you cited this paper: http://66.102.1.104/scholar?q=cache:nYP5v7n7DuYJ:scholar.google.com/+causes+of+ADHD&hl=en--
First off, this was a survey primarily of elementary school teachers. While these teachers may be very adept at dealing with students with ADHD, their opinions are of absolutely no relevance as to the question of causes. They have no training or experience in neuroanatomy, neurology, brain development, etc. Furthermore, the survey involved a questionnaire with vignettes describing fictitious students whose symptoms were supposed to be similar to those of ADHD. This is fairly irrelevant. What you are actually citing this for is the section in which this paper cites *other* papers as to what *those* papers said regarding causes. For example: "In a more recent study, Frankenberger, Farmer, Parker, and Cermak (2001) reported that school psychologists generally agreed that ADHD was caused by brain malfunction."
You also cite this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10798827
Let's look at what they actually say:
"The critics view the underlying reason for the "epidemic" as societal, due to our modern pace of living, our competitive society, and our consumer emphasis. Rejoinders to and clarifications of the more tangible points of the critics are presented, followed by a discussion of some more practical and legitimate concerns for researchers in this area."
Sounds to me as if they are summarizing the "critics" of ADHD, followed by eviscerating those arguments....and here's the kicker...if they follow it with a discussion of "more practical and legitimate concerns," then don't you think that this implies that the concerns of these "critics" are impractical and illegitimate? It sounds to me as though this paper is implying that the Social Construct proponents are in fact fringe and are not of concern for the vast majority of researchers.
And then there's the first link: http://www.jstor.org/pss/3196091?cookieSet=1
This is an article discussing the manner in which lay persons use (and misuse) ADHD and related terms. Specifically:
"This article examines the ways that meanings about the concept of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) are socially constructed within the everyday language use of laypersons. The 224 language events referencing ADHD, including media sources, were recorded in journals by student assistants. These data reveal five patterned ways that lay persons appropriate and interpret discourses originating in medical and school communities of practice."
This has absolutely nothing to do with any Social Construct theory of ADHD. It is (ironically) about the ways in which lay persons interpret and/or misinterpret medical data, and the language that lay persons use when discussing these issues. This is really not relevant at all to the causes of ADHD. If anything, its relevance is to the way that lay persons tend to MISUNDERSTAND complex medical issues such as ADHD, and the different ways in which lay persons will interpret medical discussions.
The thesis paper is, by definition, original research.
And finally, the paper in JCN is....well I suppose that it might support your contention that more neurobiological evidence is needed, although I'm really not sure how the author reached her conclusion. However, it says absolutely nothing about any Social Construct theory nor does it conclude that ADHD is a social construct.
As for your question: "What justification needs to be found to show that some within the scietific community beleive social and environmental factors may contribute to / affect ADHD?"
Well, for starters, the standard is more than just "some." There are "some" people in the scientific community who are creationists, for example. No really, there are. That doesn't change the fact that it's practically the classic case of a fringe theory. For starters, you'd have to show some level of consensus on that, not just "some." "Some" is also a classic weasel word. "Some say" "Some believe" etc. Finally, while many papers do discuss social and environmental factors, this is most definitely different from claiming that ADHD is a social construct. When researchers talk about social and environmental factors, usually it is in the context of behavioral interventions and structured study environments, etc. Other situations in which social and environmental factors are discussed would be with regards to twin concordance studies. Twin studies have shown that one identical twin will have a very high but not 100% likelyhood of having ADHD if the other twin does. This implies that there may be social factors that act *in addition* to genetic susceptibility. However, it is important to understand the difference between this, and the hypothesis that ADHD itself is merely a social construct.
Please, I do not doubt that you are acting in good faith, but I really do not believe that you understand much of the evidence that you are presenting. Also, your statement about wanting more discussion about "were we make the cuts offs between normal and mentally ill" implies that perhaps you are not familiar with the DSM-IV diagnostic criteria for ADHD. Those criteria are quite clear that the cutoff exists where the symptoms result in significant impairment, that at least some symptoms must have been present before the age of 7, and that both the symptoms and impairment must exist in at least two separate settings (ie at school and at home). Now, it is certainly possible that the criteria used in other countries is not as specific...although if anything, the ICD and other international diagnostic criteria are even more restrictive. Regardless, my point is that the diagnostic criteria (which ought to be mentioned) are themselves fairly specific about where the cutoff is between normal and abnormal.
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, a reference, designed to distill and summarize basic information about various subjects. It is not, among other things, a forum for airing fringe opinions that are not reflected by most major medical organizations. How much weight does the Epilepsy article give to the theory that seizures were caused by curses from witches or possession by evil spirits? ~ Hyperion35 ( talk) 09:09, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
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link) It will help you understand what I am getting at.
Errrm, James, did you mean Timmins or Timimi? Timimi has some pretty long-standing ties to Scientology and their CCHR front group. The full text of that paper can be found here:
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/cgi/content/full/184/1/8
Note that it is a debate paper, not a peer-reviewed paper. They wanted to show opposing sides to an issue, but the fact that Timimi was the best they could find, and the fact that he did not disclose his ties to CCHR in that paper, ought to raise some red flags. Also note that he mostly cites himself (along with another Scientologist, Peter Breggin). His only non-Scientologist citations are simply with regard to stimulant toxicity.
Here's one particular gem that Timimi mentions in his conclusion in the article that you cite (sourced to himself):
"By acting as agents of social control and stifling diversity in children, we are victimising millions of children and their families by putting children on highly addictive drugs that have no proven long-term benefit."
Agents of social control? Victimising millions of children? Does this really sound like rational academic discourse?
Look, I'm not criticizing you, you're not responsible for what Timimi writes, but I do want to impress upon you the fact that Sami Timimi is involved with Scientology's CCHR front group, and ask whether you think that this might make him a less than desirable source, as well as whether this might imply that he is not all that "mainstream" (lord help us the day that Scientologists are considered "mainstream.") ~ Hyperion35 ( talk) 20:33, 10 August 2009 (UTC)