The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Ibn Muljamassassinated the fourth caliph
Ali at the request of his lover whose father and brother were killed by Ali's forces at the
Battle of Nahrawan?
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Aftermath could mention
Second Fitna, and other subsequent conflicts between Muslims resulting form this assassination.
FunkMonk: How can I make connection between 'Aftermath' and the
Second Fitna? Also, can you please explain what you mean regarding "other subsequent conflicts"?
Mhhossein (
talk) 05:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
On second thoughts, I don't think anything in my comment above is necessary. Though if anything comes to mind, could be mentioned if any subsequent animosity has resulted from the assassination.
FunkMonk (
talk) 07:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
It should also mention how important the death of Ali has become to Shias, and how it is commemorated (ashura), etc.
Done as much as possible.
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"Shiites mourn the anniversary of Hasayn's defeat." Mention muharram by name as well, now it is hidden as an "easter egg link".
"on the 21 Ramadan 40 AH" Only mentioned in intro.
Done Moreover, I emphasized that the exact date is disputed per reliable sources.
Mhhossein (
talk) 15:11, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Khawarij and Ibn Muljam are overlinked in the intro.
Done I resolved the issue with Ibn Muljam while I think we have to keep both bluelinks going to Khawarij. The first one is Kharijite (referring to a person) and the second one is Khawarij (referring to a group).
Mhhossein (
talk) 17:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Seems they both link to the same article, though? That counts as overlinking.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:50, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
You refer to Quttaam as a girl in the intro but as a woman in the article.
I won't make any of it now, but since this is a rather short article, I'm not sure why it was split off from the general article about Ali? Seems it would easily fit there.
I think the main article is long enough and we'd better not make it longer by adding it to that.
Mhhossein (
talk) 04:37, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Regarding @
FunkMonk:'s request on
Wikipedia:Good article nominations, I will join you as the second reviewer. I think more should be done to reach GA criteria. Thus, I put on hold tag on the article.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 04:13, 22 April 2016 (UTC)reply
"Attack and death" This part is incomplete. Madelung has provide precise description of the event in his book "
The Succession to Muhammad" pp.308 and 309. You can also use Veccia Vaglieri's article.(
ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib)
There should be information about the role of
al-Ash'ath[1]
@
Sa.vakilian: Could you please provide more explanations? I've restricted access to your proposed source.
Mhhossein (
talk) 10:42, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian and
FunkMonk: Fortunately, I got two articles by Brill regarding our subject and I found some info regarding the role of Ash'ath. I'll consider adding needed info.
Mhhossein (
talk) 06:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"Aftermath": This section is incomplete as well. You can add more information from Madelung's book.--
Done I added some more info from Madelung's book.
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Thank you.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:41, 22 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I tried to add some parts of Madelung's book.
Mhhossein (
talk) 11:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
According to Madelung three persons were involved in assassination of Ali, the point which is missed here in the article.
Mhhossein (
talk) 12:12, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: Another issue which should be resolved prior to promotion is the inconsistency of the templates used for citation.
Mhhossein (
talk) 11:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for further comments. This GAN is really going way too slow,
Royroydeb, anyone else would have failed it by now, but I'll wait and see if you get going.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)reply
FunkMonk, Royroydeb hasn't edited on Wikipedia since April 18. You may want to go ahead and fail it.
BlueMoonset (
talk) 05:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'll fail this in a couple of days.
FunkMonk (
talk) 18:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Mhhossein, since you seem knowledgeable about the topic, might you want to take over the nomination and fix the remaining issues?
FunkMonk (
talk) 14:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
FunkMonk: I can do the job. That you don't hold your finger on the 'fail' button to push it any time possible, is admirable. Should I address the bullet points raised above? --
Mhhossein (
talk) 17:17, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks! Yeah, that's all you have to do. I don't like failing articles due to inactivity (usually everything can be fixed over time), and it shouldn't be too hard to fix this one...
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian: Where can I find reliable info on the motivation behind the assassination. I've already made some relations between the Nahrawan battle and the assassination. --
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:33, 20 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I suggest to use Brill's article.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:03, 22 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian and
FunkMonk: I'm finished with resolving the issues raised above. Ready to perform any further required edits.
Mhhossein (
talk) 06:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Looks good, but there are some grammar issues with the new paragraph about al-Ash'ath ibn Qays. I'll give it a look later and see what I can fix.
FunkMonk (
talk) 13:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I fixed a few errors.
[3] You should not use contractions like "didn't", as it is too informal.
FunkMonk (
talk) 13:35, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"in the battle for the water" Anything that could be linked?
"al-Burak b. Abd Allah and Amr b. Bakr al-Tamimi" What do the b.s stand for?
Excuse me, God willing, I will check in this week.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The article has some problems which I try to fix. Then I tell my final view.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 03:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Thank you. It looks too much better now.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 01:33, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Seyyed: Thank you for editing the article and for enhancing its quality.
FunkMonk Can we go forward?
Mhhossein (
talk) 05:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Looks good, remaining issue now is that some of the info found in the intro is not mentioned in the article body, which it should. The intro is just supposed to be a summary of the article, with no unique info. I'll list the info below:
"Ali, being then 62 or 63 years of age"
"("those who leave")"
"(Qisas)
"Ibn Muljam met up with two other Kharijites namely al-Burak ibn Abd Allah and Amr ibn Bakr al-Tamimi at Mecca concluded that the situation of the Muslims at the time were due to the erroneousness of Ali, Muawiah and Amr ibn As, governor of Egypt, whom they decided to kill in order to resolve the "deplorable situation" of their time and also avenge their companions killed at Nahrawan." This sentence is extremely long and should be broken up.
There are quite a few duplicate links throughout the article.
@
FunkMonk:: Done. Thanks for your useful points, I'm ready to make any other required changes.
Mhhossein (
talk) 14:16, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
I think it works much better now as a stand alone article, thanks for saving this one, guys! Will now pass. Just noticed that the article lacks wikiproject tags on the talkpage, though...
FunkMonk (
talk) 14:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
FunkMonk: And thank you for being patient with this nomination. I should also thank
Seyyed for helping me with this promotion.
Mhhossein (
talk) 04:34, 6 June 2016 (UTC)reply
None of those assassinations have religious significance. {{
Infobox civilian attack}} seems awkward and overly-simplifying in this context, in my opinion. And the juxtaposition of an idealized hagiographic illustration with a banal list of historical facts is especially awkward.
Kaldari (
talk) 21:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)reply
What's it, if Assassination of Ali is not a civilian attack? How having a religious significance can/should make a difference? --
Mhhosseintalk 12:20, 30 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Btw, as far as I know, the most available photo relevant with the article subject, is this "hagiographic" work. --
Mhhosseintalk 12:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)reply
"In arts" section
@
Mhhossein: I wouldn't have noticed this section if it weren't for your latest edit. I believe
the first source is a
self-published one, unless I'm missing something. Please read the
WP:IPC essay, which better explains my concerns. Didn't check the other sources yet, but they are most likely unreliable.
Fitzcarmalan (
talk) 08:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Yeah, the first source is weblog updated by the painter himself. Anyway, I'll replace it with a secondary an independent source. By the way, the materials you
removed is neither off-topic nor original research. --
Mhhosseintalk 13:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph is definitely off-topic. The painter himself doesn't seem notable enough to have a WP article about him. Let alone a mention on this article of not only him, but also the critical reception of one of his works. Please remove it.
Fitzcarmalan (
talk) 14:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)reply
I don't think so. That the "painter himself doesn't seem notable" has nothing to do with whether or not we can mention his work in an article most related to it. However, none of these mean that you can't start a RFC. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk 18:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)reply
I check pages listed in
Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
Assassination of Ali's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
From
Ali:
"Alī ibn Abu Talib". Encyclopædia Iranica. Archived from
the original on April 29, 2011. Retrieved December 16, 2010. {{
cite encyclopedia}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (
help)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
AnomieBOT⚡ 23:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Dear @
Spanianou: As you may have seen, the article is a GA and editors would better be more cautious when editing the article, in order for the GA level to be kept. I just noticed
your edit and thank you for your contribution. Anyway, could you please use a referencing style in harmony with this article? As you see, we have not used short formats such as Harvnb here. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk 07:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Date 26 or 27
@
Howcheng: I just noticed
your edit and have
altered the date in the other article, since I think the
source used here in this article is reliable enough for the date (and I could not verify 27 Jan by the given source in the other article). So, I don't find them to be contradictory! --
Mhhosseintalk 07:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Apparently it's not very clear at all. Look at
Talk:Ali/Archive 6#Date of death. 21 Ramadan as the date of death seems to be correct, but it's just a matter of converting that to the western calendar. —howcheng {
chat} 16:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Miscellaneous comments and the proposed changes
A number of comments about this article. They seem fairly uncontroversial but I'll wait a bit for feedback/objections before implementing them.
Open
Corrections and mechanical edits
Inconsistency in transliteration, e.g., Muawiyah vs. Muawiya.
A separate bibliography section might be added and the inconsistencies in citations should be sorted out.
"Shablb ibn Bujra" should be "Shabib ibn Bujra", according to the source.
The latter part of the following is not in the source: "Ali's death is commemorated by Shia Muslims every year at the Imam Ali Mosque and by Sunni Muslims at the Hazrat Ali Mazar."
Discussed
"Ali became the caliph" can be replaced with the more informative sentence "Ali was elected caliph."
The paragraph in Background starting with "Ali's caliphate was coincident with First Fitna" benefits from some copy editing. Here is my proposal, where I have omitted the (standard) sources for brevity: Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the
First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth
Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in
Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the
Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent
Umayyad governor of
Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of inciting Muhajirun against Uthman and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court. After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the
Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
The following can be replaced with something with fewer quotes and closer to the source: Current:According to Madelung, a small minority of people were convinced that "he was the best of Muslims after the Prophet and the only one entitled to rule them," and after Ali's death people were divided regarding their view toward him. "Distrust of, and opposition to, Mu'awiya and his Syrian cohorts" was what united the majority. Ali's admirers then turned into majority due to "highhandedness, misrule and repression" that composed the rule of the Umayyads.Proposed:According to Madelung, during his rule, Ali found a loyal following who regarded Ali as the best of Muslims after Muhammad and the only one entitled to the caliphate. Nevertheless, this following remained a small minority and what united Kufans after Ali's assassination was instead their opposition to Muawiya. Madelung adds that, over time, the oppressive rule of the Umayyads turned the minority of Ali's admirers into the majority.
The second paragraph can be shortened to read better. Here is my proposal: "Ali was elected caliph after the assassination of Uthman in 656 but faced opposition from some factions including Muawiya I, the incumbent governor of Syria. As a result, the first Muslim civil war, known as the First Fitna, followed the assassination of Uthman, continued throughout the four-year reign of Ali and ended with the overthrow of the Rashidun caliphate and the establishment of the Umayyad dynasty by Muawiya. Notably, after Ali agreed to arbitration with Muawiya, following the Battle of Siffin in 657, a fraction of his army revolted against him. These later became known as the Kharijites or those who secede. They soon began to terrorize the civilian population and were crushed by Ali's forces in the Battle of Nahrawan in July 658."
Both Levant and Syria are used in this wiki article to describe Muawiya's territory. The said territory is referred to as Syria by Madelung. So one can replace Levant with Syria in this wiki article for the sake of consistency and readability.
I think proper nouns like Kharijites and Rashidun need not be italicized.
an Excessive number of quotes, e.g., in the section Ali's prediction of his fate (save for the quote about the "evilest man").
After providing the source, "Amr ibn al-As, governor of Egypt" in the lead can be replaced with the more accurate, e.g., "Amr ibn al-As, Muawiya's governor of Egypt".[1]
There are lots of places that the language can be improved, e.g., the existing sentence "Some sources have accused al-Ash'ath of being informed of the plot of the assassination of Ali" can be rewritten as "Some sources have alleged that al-Ash'ath was aware of the plot to assassinate Ali."
"After Ali's death, the Shias of Iraq declared Ali's eldest son Hasan the successor to Ali, thus proclaiming him as their new caliph. However, Hasan was not interested in becoming caliph, and to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty and abdicated in favor of Muawiyah, who became the first caliph of the Umayyad caliphate." can probably be replaced with a more historically accurate statement. Here is my proposal, where I have dropped the sources: After the assassination of Ali in January 661, his eldest son, Hasan, was elected caliph in Kufa. Soon after Muawiya marched on Kufa with a sizeable army, while Hasan's military response suffered defections in large numbers, in part facilitated by military commanders and tribal chiefs who had been swayed to Muawiya's side by promises and offers of money. After a failed attempt on his life, a wounded Hasan, who by now only ruled the area around Kufa, ceded the caliphate to Muawiya in 661, who founded the Umayyad caliphate.
The following is unsourced. If a source is not found, remove: "...while remembered by nearly all Muslims every year during Muharram paying tribute to Muhammad's grandson and his family's brutal assassination."
"other sahaba" in the following replace should be replaced with the more accurate Talha and Zubayr. "Ali, first emerged victorious at the Battle of Camel in 656, against an army primarily led by Muhammad's wife Aisha and other sahaba."
The following sentence in the lead might be a bit confusing: "Ali, who was then 62 or 63 years of age, died due to his injuries two days after Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Amr ibn Muljam al-Muradi struck him on his head with a poison-coated sword, on the 21 (or 19) Ramadan 40 AH (28 January 661 CE)." There is only a comma to clarify that 21 (or 19) is the day on which Ali died. This can be rewritten more clearly.
There are a lot of comments so plz wait so that other users may get involved. Also you have not even pinged the most involved users in this page. --
Mhhosseintalk 06:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
For the time being, your claim in #1 needs a reliable source. #2 seems OK to me. As for #3, it is too short and ignores important point regarding Kharijites. Syria and Levant mentioned in #4 refer to two different area from historical viewpoint, right? Which one is used by the sources? --
Mhhosseintalk 07:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks,
Mhhossein! I've now pinged a few people. Re Item 3, I didn't plan on removing the information about the Kharijites and have now included the full paragraph in my proposal above (after some light edits) to avoid any confusion. Re Item 1, I've added a source although it's likely that I'm misunderstanding your comment.
Albertatiran (
talk) 08:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Do you mean Amr was not governor of Egypt when Ali was assassinated? --
Mhhosseintalk 05:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
It was
added by
user:Sa.vakilian. I think you may remove it if you have a reliable source saying Amr ibn As was not the Egypt's governor at the time. Also, I am OK with 5 and 6 (as for 6, I think the sentence "the evilest..." would better be left untouched.) --
Mhhosseintalk 05:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi,
Mhhossein! Please have a look at the updated Item 1. (Amr was indeed a governor at the time of assassination but he was Muawiya's governor not Ali's. This can be easily clarified as described in Item 1. I also divided the comments into two groups.
Albertatiran (
talk) 16:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi, Albertatiran. I agree with the modification you provided for Amr ibn As in the lead – provided that it's accompanied by a reliable source. Now dealing with the open items; Why do you think the "Therefore, a civil war ..." is redundant? I don't see any similar items in the page making this sentence excessive. As for al-Sallabi, I suggest keeping the source, since I don't think it is unreliable. Though you may evaluate it at the WP:RSN. As for #4, you can see
my original edit. The source is Madelung but I don't know how it was changed later. What's your proposal for #5 and your edits under #6 are welcomed (but be careful about the meaning of the sentences). --
Mhhosseintalk 03:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks,
Mhhossein. Can you check the the updated list of open items?
Albertatiran (
talk) 20:13, 15 December 2021 (UTC)reply
You're welcome. Do you like implementing the discussed items gradually? Thanks for your CE proposal in #1. To be honest, I am happy with the current wording (for plenty of reasons) but think #2 is an improvement (are you suggesting to keep "to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty..." up to the end of the current paragraph?). As for #3, it is a combination of
my edit and
an edit from another user. So, it's possible they have entered something unsourced. Anyway, can we find a source for it? Thanks for your proposals. --
Mhhosseintalk 06:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi,
Mhhossein! In addition to the above list, I'm hoping to copy-edit the article. I understand that you've written parts of it and I hope you are ok with me editing the article more freely. Academic writing is my day job :) and I believe I can improve the writing and presentation in various places without changing the message. Regarding the above list, it might be easier for me to have our discussion first before making all these changes lumped together with other light edits. And we're almost done! :) About the open item 1 above, I wonder what your concerns are and if they can be addressed easily. Thanks.
Albertatiran (
talk) 17:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)reply
ِDear Albertatiran, I am sure your efforts may improve the quality of pages but the disputes between the editors are normal which would better get resolved via reaching a consensus/compromise. As for #1 from the open list, we don't need to have the names in their complete forms. According to the 'Battle of the Camel', Aiysha was a key figure in the battle to the point the war is named after her riding on the back of a camel. It's even reported that Zubayr deserted the field but was killed by the soldiers on his side. So, let's not the change the meaning by saying "Ali first emerged victorious in the Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Tahla, Zubayr, and Aisha." Though, to be honest, I think your version is featured with "The battle ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration" and "...and declared war on him" which are more accurate. --
Mhhosseintalk 15:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: I understand. Please see revised #1 with the changes highlighted in red.
Albertatiran (
talk) 19:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Bravo
Albertatiran. I just realized there's something lacking in the paragraph. After sating "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished," then we need to bring Ali's response/view point. Your thoughts? As for the remaining items, I am OK with them except #4 which can be still worked on to be improved. For instance, saying "Ali built a loyal following..." makes the wrong impression that he really did something to build a group of loyal followers, which I don't think is the case. Best. --
Mhhosseintalk 07:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Good point about #1! About #4, it might be argued that perhaps Ali did play an active role, e.g., his sermons and teachings. In any case, please see the revised texts. Thanks!
Albertatiran (
talk) 09:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Albertatiran: We usually don't revise the old talk comments as
you tend to do, because extensive edit of the old comments makes it difficult for others to keep track of the developments. Instead, you may write new paragraphs featured with your fresh edits and keep the old one intact. Anyway, "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished" is far way different from "accusing him in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers." The latter just implies Ali was directly involved in the assassination of Uthman – am I right saying it's just not supported by the reliable sources? In my
previous comment, I meant to suggest adding something after "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for ...". What was Ali's reaction? As for building loyal, there should be a reliable source saying as such, otherwise it is not acceptable. Thanks. --
Mhhosseintalk 18:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Thanks for the tip. Both proposals are sourced from Madelung. #4 closely follows page 309 of Madelung. #1 is taken from pages 205 and 206 of Madelung. Here, Muawiya accused Ali of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanded the surrender of the murderers. The revised proposal for #1 below now emphasizes that indirect involvement. You're also, of course, welcome to add your alternative below :)
Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the
First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth
Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in
Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the
Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent
Umayyad governor of
Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court.[2] After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the
Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
You're welcome Albertatiran. Almost everything is Ok but I would write "...accusing him of inciting Muhajerun against Uthman" or "...accusing him of being instigator of Uthman's death". As for #4, yes that is in close match with Madelung's wording. Thanks. --
Mhhosseintalk 13:02, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
References
^Kennedy (2004, p. 69) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFKennedy2004 (
help)
^Madelung (1997, pp. 205, 206) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFMadelung1997 (
help)
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that
Ibn Muljamassassinated the fourth caliph
Ali at the request of his lover whose father and brother were killed by Ali's forces at the
Battle of Nahrawan?
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Aftermath could mention
Second Fitna, and other subsequent conflicts between Muslims resulting form this assassination.
FunkMonk: How can I make connection between 'Aftermath' and the
Second Fitna? Also, can you please explain what you mean regarding "other subsequent conflicts"?
Mhhossein (
talk) 05:43, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
On second thoughts, I don't think anything in my comment above is necessary. Though if anything comes to mind, could be mentioned if any subsequent animosity has resulted from the assassination.
FunkMonk (
talk) 07:45, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
It should also mention how important the death of Ali has become to Shias, and how it is commemorated (ashura), etc.
Done as much as possible.
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:09, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"Shiites mourn the anniversary of Hasayn's defeat." Mention muharram by name as well, now it is hidden as an "easter egg link".
"on the 21 Ramadan 40 AH" Only mentioned in intro.
Done Moreover, I emphasized that the exact date is disputed per reliable sources.
Mhhossein (
talk) 15:11, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Khawarij and Ibn Muljam are overlinked in the intro.
Done I resolved the issue with Ibn Muljam while I think we have to keep both bluelinks going to Khawarij. The first one is Kharijite (referring to a person) and the second one is Khawarij (referring to a group).
Mhhossein (
talk) 17:46, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Seems they both link to the same article, though? That counts as overlinking.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:50, 23 May 2016 (UTC)reply
You refer to Quttaam as a girl in the intro but as a woman in the article.
I won't make any of it now, but since this is a rather short article, I'm not sure why it was split off from the general article about Ali? Seems it would easily fit there.
I think the main article is long enough and we'd better not make it longer by adding it to that.
Mhhossein (
talk) 04:37, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Regarding @
FunkMonk:'s request on
Wikipedia:Good article nominations, I will join you as the second reviewer. I think more should be done to reach GA criteria. Thus, I put on hold tag on the article.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 04:13, 22 April 2016 (UTC)reply
"Attack and death" This part is incomplete. Madelung has provide precise description of the event in his book "
The Succession to Muhammad" pp.308 and 309. You can also use Veccia Vaglieri's article.(
ʿAlī b. Abī Ṭālib)
There should be information about the role of
al-Ash'ath[1]
@
Sa.vakilian: Could you please provide more explanations? I've restricted access to your proposed source.
Mhhossein (
talk) 10:42, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian and
FunkMonk: Fortunately, I got two articles by Brill regarding our subject and I found some info regarding the role of Ash'ath. I'll consider adding needed info.
Mhhossein (
talk) 06:12, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"Aftermath": This section is incomplete as well. You can add more information from Madelung's book.--
Done I added some more info from Madelung's book.
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:03, 24 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Thank you.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:41, 22 April 2016 (UTC)reply
I tried to add some parts of Madelung's book.
Mhhossein (
talk) 11:57, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
According to Madelung three persons were involved in assassination of Ali, the point which is missed here in the article.
Mhhossein (
talk) 12:12, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Comment: Another issue which should be resolved prior to promotion is the inconsistency of the templates used for citation.
Mhhossein (
talk) 11:41, 25 April 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks for further comments. This GAN is really going way too slow,
Royroydeb, anyone else would have failed it by now, but I'll wait and see if you get going.
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)reply
FunkMonk, Royroydeb hasn't edited on Wikipedia since April 18. You may want to go ahead and fail it.
BlueMoonset (
talk) 05:25, 16 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Yeah, I'll fail this in a couple of days.
FunkMonk (
talk) 18:07, 16 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Mhhossein, since you seem knowledgeable about the topic, might you want to take over the nomination and fix the remaining issues?
FunkMonk (
talk) 14:12, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
FunkMonk: I can do the job. That you don't hold your finger on the 'fail' button to push it any time possible, is admirable. Should I address the bullet points raised above? --
Mhhossein (
talk) 17:17, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Thanks! Yeah, that's all you have to do. I don't like failing articles due to inactivity (usually everything can be fixed over time), and it shouldn't be too hard to fix this one...
FunkMonk (
talk) 17:20, 19 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian: Where can I find reliable info on the motivation behind the assassination. I've already made some relations between the Nahrawan battle and the assassination. --
Mhhossein (
talk) 13:33, 20 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I suggest to use Brill's article.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:03, 22 May 2016 (UTC)reply
@
Sa.vakilian and
FunkMonk: I'm finished with resolving the issues raised above. Ready to perform any further required edits.
Mhhossein (
talk) 06:15, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
Looks good, but there are some grammar issues with the new paragraph about al-Ash'ath ibn Qays. I'll give it a look later and see what I can fix.
FunkMonk (
talk) 13:11, 26 May 2016 (UTC)reply
I fixed a few errors.
[3] You should not use contractions like "didn't", as it is too informal.
FunkMonk (
talk) 13:35, 27 May 2016 (UTC)reply
"in the battle for the water" Anything that could be linked?
"al-Burak b. Abd Allah and Amr b. Bakr al-Tamimi" What do the b.s stand for?
Excuse me, God willing, I will check in this week.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 06:45, 30 May 2016 (UTC)reply
The article has some problems which I try to fix. Then I tell my final view.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 03:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Thank you. It looks too much better now.--Seyyed(
t-
c) 01:33, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Seyyed: Thank you for editing the article and for enhancing its quality.
FunkMonk Can we go forward?
Mhhossein (
talk) 05:36, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
Looks good, remaining issue now is that some of the info found in the intro is not mentioned in the article body, which it should. The intro is just supposed to be a summary of the article, with no unique info. I'll list the info below:
"Ali, being then 62 or 63 years of age"
"("those who leave")"
"(Qisas)
"Ibn Muljam met up with two other Kharijites namely al-Burak ibn Abd Allah and Amr ibn Bakr al-Tamimi at Mecca concluded that the situation of the Muslims at the time were due to the erroneousness of Ali, Muawiah and Amr ibn As, governor of Egypt, whom they decided to kill in order to resolve the "deplorable situation" of their time and also avenge their companions killed at Nahrawan." This sentence is extremely long and should be broken up.
There are quite a few duplicate links throughout the article.
@
FunkMonk:: Done. Thanks for your useful points, I'm ready to make any other required changes.
Mhhossein (
talk) 14:16, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
I think it works much better now as a stand alone article, thanks for saving this one, guys! Will now pass. Just noticed that the article lacks wikiproject tags on the talkpage, though...
FunkMonk (
talk) 14:35, 5 June 2016 (UTC)reply
FunkMonk: And thank you for being patient with this nomination. I should also thank
Seyyed for helping me with this promotion.
Mhhossein (
talk) 04:34, 6 June 2016 (UTC)reply
None of those assassinations have religious significance. {{
Infobox civilian attack}} seems awkward and overly-simplifying in this context, in my opinion. And the juxtaposition of an idealized hagiographic illustration with a banal list of historical facts is especially awkward.
Kaldari (
talk) 21:34, 29 December 2017 (UTC)reply
What's it, if Assassination of Ali is not a civilian attack? How having a religious significance can/should make a difference? --
Mhhosseintalk 12:20, 30 December 2017 (UTC)reply
Btw, as far as I know, the most available photo relevant with the article subject, is this "hagiographic" work. --
Mhhosseintalk 12:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)reply
"In arts" section
@
Mhhossein: I wouldn't have noticed this section if it weren't for your latest edit. I believe
the first source is a
self-published one, unless I'm missing something. Please read the
WP:IPC essay, which better explains my concerns. Didn't check the other sources yet, but they are most likely unreliable.
Fitzcarmalan (
talk) 08:53, 27 April 2018 (UTC)reply
Yeah, the first source is weblog updated by the painter himself. Anyway, I'll replace it with a secondary an independent source. By the way, the materials you
removed is neither off-topic nor original research. --
Mhhosseintalk 13:40, 13 May 2018 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph is definitely off-topic. The painter himself doesn't seem notable enough to have a WP article about him. Let alone a mention on this article of not only him, but also the critical reception of one of his works. Please remove it.
Fitzcarmalan (
talk) 14:28, 14 May 2018 (UTC)reply
I don't think so. That the "painter himself doesn't seem notable" has nothing to do with whether or not we can mention his work in an article most related to it. However, none of these mean that you can't start a RFC. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk 18:48, 14 May 2018 (UTC)reply
I check pages listed in
Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for
orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of
Assassination of Ali's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
From
Ali:
"Alī ibn Abu Talib". Encyclopædia Iranica. Archived from
the original on April 29, 2011. Retrieved December 16, 2010. {{
cite encyclopedia}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (
help)
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not.
AnomieBOT⚡ 23:54, 10 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Dear @
Spanianou: As you may have seen, the article is a GA and editors would better be more cautious when editing the article, in order for the GA level to be kept. I just noticed
your edit and thank you for your contribution. Anyway, could you please use a referencing style in harmony with this article? As you see, we have not used short formats such as Harvnb here. Regards. --
Mhhosseintalk 07:17, 11 June 2018 (UTC)reply
Date 26 or 27
@
Howcheng: I just noticed
your edit and have
altered the date in the other article, since I think the
source used here in this article is reliable enough for the date (and I could not verify 27 Jan by the given source in the other article). So, I don't find them to be contradictory! --
Mhhosseintalk 07:47, 25 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Apparently it's not very clear at all. Look at
Talk:Ali/Archive 6#Date of death. 21 Ramadan as the date of death seems to be correct, but it's just a matter of converting that to the western calendar. —howcheng {
chat} 16:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)reply
Miscellaneous comments and the proposed changes
A number of comments about this article. They seem fairly uncontroversial but I'll wait a bit for feedback/objections before implementing them.
Open
Corrections and mechanical edits
Inconsistency in transliteration, e.g., Muawiyah vs. Muawiya.
A separate bibliography section might be added and the inconsistencies in citations should be sorted out.
"Shablb ibn Bujra" should be "Shabib ibn Bujra", according to the source.
The latter part of the following is not in the source: "Ali's death is commemorated by Shia Muslims every year at the Imam Ali Mosque and by Sunni Muslims at the Hazrat Ali Mazar."
Discussed
"Ali became the caliph" can be replaced with the more informative sentence "Ali was elected caliph."
The paragraph in Background starting with "Ali's caliphate was coincident with First Fitna" benefits from some copy editing. Here is my proposal, where I have omitted the (standard) sources for brevity: Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the
First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth
Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in
Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the
Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent
Umayyad governor of
Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of inciting Muhajirun against Uthman and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court. After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the
Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
The following can be replaced with something with fewer quotes and closer to the source: Current:According to Madelung, a small minority of people were convinced that "he was the best of Muslims after the Prophet and the only one entitled to rule them," and after Ali's death people were divided regarding their view toward him. "Distrust of, and opposition to, Mu'awiya and his Syrian cohorts" was what united the majority. Ali's admirers then turned into majority due to "highhandedness, misrule and repression" that composed the rule of the Umayyads.Proposed:According to Madelung, during his rule, Ali found a loyal following who regarded Ali as the best of Muslims after Muhammad and the only one entitled to the caliphate. Nevertheless, this following remained a small minority and what united Kufans after Ali's assassination was instead their opposition to Muawiya. Madelung adds that, over time, the oppressive rule of the Umayyads turned the minority of Ali's admirers into the majority.
The second paragraph can be shortened to read better. Here is my proposal: "Ali was elected caliph after the assassination of Uthman in 656 but faced opposition from some factions including Muawiya I, the incumbent governor of Syria. As a result, the first Muslim civil war, known as the First Fitna, followed the assassination of Uthman, continued throughout the four-year reign of Ali and ended with the overthrow of the Rashidun caliphate and the establishment of the Umayyad dynasty by Muawiya. Notably, after Ali agreed to arbitration with Muawiya, following the Battle of Siffin in 657, a fraction of his army revolted against him. These later became known as the Kharijites or those who secede. They soon began to terrorize the civilian population and were crushed by Ali's forces in the Battle of Nahrawan in July 658."
Both Levant and Syria are used in this wiki article to describe Muawiya's territory. The said territory is referred to as Syria by Madelung. So one can replace Levant with Syria in this wiki article for the sake of consistency and readability.
I think proper nouns like Kharijites and Rashidun need not be italicized.
an Excessive number of quotes, e.g., in the section Ali's prediction of his fate (save for the quote about the "evilest man").
After providing the source, "Amr ibn al-As, governor of Egypt" in the lead can be replaced with the more accurate, e.g., "Amr ibn al-As, Muawiya's governor of Egypt".[1]
There are lots of places that the language can be improved, e.g., the existing sentence "Some sources have accused al-Ash'ath of being informed of the plot of the assassination of Ali" can be rewritten as "Some sources have alleged that al-Ash'ath was aware of the plot to assassinate Ali."
"After Ali's death, the Shias of Iraq declared Ali's eldest son Hasan the successor to Ali, thus proclaiming him as their new caliph. However, Hasan was not interested in becoming caliph, and to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty and abdicated in favor of Muawiyah, who became the first caliph of the Umayyad caliphate." can probably be replaced with a more historically accurate statement. Here is my proposal, where I have dropped the sources: After the assassination of Ali in January 661, his eldest son, Hasan, was elected caliph in Kufa. Soon after Muawiya marched on Kufa with a sizeable army, while Hasan's military response suffered defections in large numbers, in part facilitated by military commanders and tribal chiefs who had been swayed to Muawiya's side by promises and offers of money. After a failed attempt on his life, a wounded Hasan, who by now only ruled the area around Kufa, ceded the caliphate to Muawiya in 661, who founded the Umayyad caliphate.
The following is unsourced. If a source is not found, remove: "...while remembered by nearly all Muslims every year during Muharram paying tribute to Muhammad's grandson and his family's brutal assassination."
"other sahaba" in the following replace should be replaced with the more accurate Talha and Zubayr. "Ali, first emerged victorious at the Battle of Camel in 656, against an army primarily led by Muhammad's wife Aisha and other sahaba."
The following sentence in the lead might be a bit confusing: "Ali, who was then 62 or 63 years of age, died due to his injuries two days after Abd al-Rahman ibn 'Amr ibn Muljam al-Muradi struck him on his head with a poison-coated sword, on the 21 (or 19) Ramadan 40 AH (28 January 661 CE)." There is only a comma to clarify that 21 (or 19) is the day on which Ali died. This can be rewritten more clearly.
There are a lot of comments so plz wait so that other users may get involved. Also you have not even pinged the most involved users in this page. --
Mhhosseintalk 06:56, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
For the time being, your claim in #1 needs a reliable source. #2 seems OK to me. As for #3, it is too short and ignores important point regarding Kharijites. Syria and Levant mentioned in #4 refer to two different area from historical viewpoint, right? Which one is used by the sources? --
Mhhosseintalk 07:04, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks,
Mhhossein! I've now pinged a few people. Re Item 3, I didn't plan on removing the information about the Kharijites and have now included the full paragraph in my proposal above (after some light edits) to avoid any confusion. Re Item 1, I've added a source although it's likely that I'm misunderstanding your comment.
Albertatiran (
talk) 08:38, 11 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Do you mean Amr was not governor of Egypt when Ali was assassinated? --
Mhhosseintalk 05:15, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
It was
added by
user:Sa.vakilian. I think you may remove it if you have a reliable source saying Amr ibn As was not the Egypt's governor at the time. Also, I am OK with 5 and 6 (as for 6, I think the sentence "the evilest..." would better be left untouched.) --
Mhhosseintalk 05:23, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi,
Mhhossein! Please have a look at the updated Item 1. (Amr was indeed a governor at the time of assassination but he was Muawiya's governor not Ali's. This can be easily clarified as described in Item 1. I also divided the comments into two groups.
Albertatiran (
talk) 16:24, 12 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi, Albertatiran. I agree with the modification you provided for Amr ibn As in the lead – provided that it's accompanied by a reliable source. Now dealing with the open items; Why do you think the "Therefore, a civil war ..." is redundant? I don't see any similar items in the page making this sentence excessive. As for al-Sallabi, I suggest keeping the source, since I don't think it is unreliable. Though you may evaluate it at the WP:RSN. As for #4, you can see
my original edit. The source is Madelung but I don't know how it was changed later. What's your proposal for #5 and your edits under #6 are welcomed (but be careful about the meaning of the sentences). --
Mhhosseintalk 03:52, 14 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Thanks,
Mhhossein. Can you check the the updated list of open items?
Albertatiran (
talk) 20:13, 15 December 2021 (UTC)reply
You're welcome. Do you like implementing the discussed items gradually? Thanks for your CE proposal in #1. To be honest, I am happy with the current wording (for plenty of reasons) but think #2 is an improvement (are you suggesting to keep "to prevent further bloodshed, he signed the Hasan–Muawiya treaty..." up to the end of the current paragraph?). As for #3, it is a combination of
my edit and
an edit from another user. So, it's possible they have entered something unsourced. Anyway, can we find a source for it? Thanks for your proposals. --
Mhhosseintalk 06:22, 16 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Hi,
Mhhossein! In addition to the above list, I'm hoping to copy-edit the article. I understand that you've written parts of it and I hope you are ok with me editing the article more freely. Academic writing is my day job :) and I believe I can improve the writing and presentation in various places without changing the message. Regarding the above list, it might be easier for me to have our discussion first before making all these changes lumped together with other light edits. And we're almost done! :) About the open item 1 above, I wonder what your concerns are and if they can be addressed easily. Thanks.
Albertatiran (
talk) 17:27, 17 December 2021 (UTC)reply
ِDear Albertatiran, I am sure your efforts may improve the quality of pages but the disputes between the editors are normal which would better get resolved via reaching a consensus/compromise. As for #1 from the open list, we don't need to have the names in their complete forms. According to the 'Battle of the Camel', Aiysha was a key figure in the battle to the point the war is named after her riding on the back of a camel. It's even reported that Zubayr deserted the field but was killed by the soldiers on his side. So, let's not the change the meaning by saying "Ali first emerged victorious in the Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Tahla, Zubayr, and Aisha." Though, to be honest, I think your version is featured with "The battle ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration" and "...and declared war on him" which are more accurate. --
Mhhosseintalk 15:44, 19 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: I understand. Please see revised #1 with the changes highlighted in red.
Albertatiran (
talk) 19:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)reply
Bravo
Albertatiran. I just realized there's something lacking in the paragraph. After sating "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished," then we need to bring Ali's response/view point. Your thoughts? As for the remaining items, I am OK with them except #4 which can be still worked on to be improved. For instance, saying "Ali built a loyal following..." makes the wrong impression that he really did something to build a group of loyal followers, which I don't think is the case. Best. --
Mhhosseintalk 07:24, 21 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Good point about #1! About #4, it might be argued that perhaps Ali did play an active role, e.g., his sermons and teachings. In any case, please see the revised texts. Thanks!
Albertatiran (
talk) 09:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Albertatiran: We usually don't revise the old talk comments as
you tend to do, because extensive edit of the old comments makes it difficult for others to keep track of the developments. Instead, you may write new paragraphs featured with your fresh edits and keep the old one intact. Anyway, "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for the murderers of Uthman to be punished" is far way different from "accusing him in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers." The latter just implies Ali was directly involved in the assassination of Uthman – am I right saying it's just not supported by the reliable sources? In my
previous comment, I meant to suggest adding something after "Ali's opponents ostensibly asked for ...". What was Ali's reaction? As for building loyal, there should be a reliable source saying as such, otherwise it is not acceptable. Thanks. --
Mhhosseintalk 18:23, 26 December 2021 (UTC)reply
@
Mhhossein: Thanks for the tip. Both proposals are sourced from Madelung. #4 closely follows page 309 of Madelung. #1 is taken from pages 205 and 206 of Madelung. Here, Muawiya accused Ali of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanded the surrender of the murderers. The revised proposal for #1 below now emphasizes that indirect involvement. You're also, of course, welcome to add your alternative below :)
Ali's caliphate was concurrent with the first Muslim civil war, known as the
First Fitna. Though Ali was elected as the fourth
Rashidun (or rightly guided) caliph after Uthman's death, he faced opposition during his rule. On the one hand, in
Mecca, Aisha, Talha, and Zubayr revolted against Ali and seized control of Basra. Aisha was Muhammad's widow, while Talha and Zubayr were two of his companions. Ali marched to Basra and emerged victorious in the
Battle of Camel in 656 against an army led by Aisha, Tahla, and Zubayr. On the other hand, Muawiya, the incumbent
Umayyad governor of
Syria, declared war on Ali, accusing him of indirect involvement in Uthman's murder and demanding the surrender of his murderers. In response, Ali maintained his innocence and urged Muawiya to present his case before Ali's court.[2] After failed negotiations, the two parties fought the
Battle of Siffin in 657, which ended in a stalemate as the two sides agreed to settle the matters by arbitration.
You're welcome Albertatiran. Almost everything is Ok but I would write "...accusing him of inciting Muhajerun against Uthman" or "...accusing him of being instigator of Uthman's death". As for #4, yes that is in close match with Madelung's wording. Thanks. --
Mhhosseintalk 13:02, 27 December 2021 (UTC)reply
References
^Kennedy (2004, p. 69) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFKennedy2004 (
help)
^Madelung (1997, pp. 205, 206) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFMadelung1997 (
help)