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The cite to this - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/ - does not say what the material in our article says. It's a fine line, but Kellerman's research was specifically about 'guns in the home'. He published three studies about that. The Sciam article states "More than 30 peer-reviewed studies, focusing on individuals as well as populations, have been published that confirm what Kellermann's studies suggested:" - emphasis mine. Sciam is a respected source, certainly. But their article is conflating the notion that vaguely similar studies confirm findings similar to Kellerman's, and they don't link to these claimed 30 peer reviewed studies. If the studies don't overtly state that they are attempting to replicate Kellerman's findings (none have, in fact), then this is not really appropriate to the article, unless our article also affirmatively states that the other studies were similar - not directly confirming. Further, as I mentioned in my edit, this claim is not detailed or expanded upon within the article. The lede is not the place for such claims, at least not until they are actually detailed in the body. Anastrophe ( talk) 21:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I want to add, just to be clear, I'm not interested in (nor going to) engage in an edit war about this. Nor am I going to stomp my feet then dig in my heels. I simply feel that the text as presented needs to be in the body, sourced beyond the Sciam article's claim, before either the NRA's criticisms or their negation are in the lede. Anastrophe ( talk) 22:33, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
You make an argument about the word "suggested", and then insert a bunch of your own words about "vaguely similar" etc. This is, frankly, pretty silly. Per the source, Kellermann's work "suggested" that guns are associated with violence and homicide, and other researchers' work subsequently "confirm[ed]" that finding. You're trying to artificially weaken that very clear statement from the source, which is inappropriate.
You note that Scientific American doesn't link to the 30 studies mentioned in the source; this has absolutely no bearing on the discussion, and no validity as an argument. Scientific American is a reliable source. You don't get to make up a requirement that we can disregard a reliable source if studies aren't hyperlinked to your satisfaction.
You then state that the 30 peer-reviewed studies should be disregarded unless they explicitly state that they set out to replicate Kellermann's work. This is a very basic misunderstanding on your part about how science, scientific writing, and the scientific process operate. In any case, the link between these studies and Kellermann's work has already been made by a reliable source (the Scientific American article), so it's totally inappropriate for you as a Wikipedia editor to overrule that with your personal judgement that the studies aren't sufficiently similar.
I'm not going to engage in an edit war either, but I will note that this article is covered by WP:BLP, and as such, I'm not willing to allow language that falsely downplays the degree of support for Kellermann's work. Specifically, it is not appropriate to simply state that the NRA "disputes" his work. That language implies that this is a scientific back-and-forth where both "sides" have roughly equal validity. In reality, the peer-reviewed scholarly literature backs Kellermann's findings. If we don't make that clear, then we're violating WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, by falsely implying rough equivalence where none exists.
Finally, I'm planning to re-instate the language about the NRA "attacking" Kellermann and his work. The objection—that this language implies a physical attack—is frankly ludicrous. First of all, Kellermann's research is intangible and cannot be physically attacked. Secondly, if the NRA had physically attacked a researcher, that would be remarkable and we'd certainly describe it in clear detail. The sources clearly support this language; the NRA did not respond by scientifically disputing Kellermann's findings, but rather waged a political campaign to deny funding and filed a baseless "ethics" complaint against Kellermann. MastCell Talk 22:57, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition of the following section:
However it was proven that most of the guns used in homicides in the 1993 Kellermann were not the same guns kept in the home. As the original 1993 study did not include information on the origin of the guns used in the homicides,
Gary Kleck used the dataset from a 1998 study from Kellermann that also looked at household homicides and gun ownership; this more recent study partially overlapped the years researched in the 1993 study as well as including two of the same cities (Seattle and Memphis). In this study Kellermann reported that only 14.2% of the guns used in household homicides were the same ones kept in the home. 67% involved guns brought to the home from elsewhere, and the remaning percentage unknown. Once this was taken into account by examing only incidences where the household homicide involved guns kept in the home, there were no significant associations between gun ownership and homicide risk.
[1] Kellermann responded to Kleck with the argument that the risk increase that was observed not necessarily needing to be the result of the same gun kept in the household. Kellermann further states that failed self-defense cases could result in the homicide risk that was attributable to guns.
[2]
This is for a couple reasons. One, using a single critical article to declare anything flatly "proven" is dubious; note that we do not say that any of Kellermann's findings are "proven." We might say that Kleck argued this in response to Kellermann, but not that Kleck "proved" Kellermann wrong. Secondly, the extensive back-and-forth and details are unsuitable for what is a brief biographical article; it places
undue weight on Kleck's critical analysis to give it more space than any one of Kellermann's own analyses are given. This article shouldn't turn into a back-and-forth place to spread a debate about gun control.
NorthBySouthBaranof (
talk) 04:56, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to governmental regulation of firearm ownership; the social, historical and political context of such regulation; and the people and organizations associated with these issues, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Arthur Kellermann article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page is archived by
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|
The cite to this - https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/more-guns-do-not-stop-more-crimes-evidence-shows/ - does not say what the material in our article says. It's a fine line, but Kellerman's research was specifically about 'guns in the home'. He published three studies about that. The Sciam article states "More than 30 peer-reviewed studies, focusing on individuals as well as populations, have been published that confirm what Kellermann's studies suggested:" - emphasis mine. Sciam is a respected source, certainly. But their article is conflating the notion that vaguely similar studies confirm findings similar to Kellerman's, and they don't link to these claimed 30 peer reviewed studies. If the studies don't overtly state that they are attempting to replicate Kellerman's findings (none have, in fact), then this is not really appropriate to the article, unless our article also affirmatively states that the other studies were similar - not directly confirming. Further, as I mentioned in my edit, this claim is not detailed or expanded upon within the article. The lede is not the place for such claims, at least not until they are actually detailed in the body. Anastrophe ( talk) 21:40, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I want to add, just to be clear, I'm not interested in (nor going to) engage in an edit war about this. Nor am I going to stomp my feet then dig in my heels. I simply feel that the text as presented needs to be in the body, sourced beyond the Sciam article's claim, before either the NRA's criticisms or their negation are in the lede. Anastrophe ( talk) 22:33, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
You make an argument about the word "suggested", and then insert a bunch of your own words about "vaguely similar" etc. This is, frankly, pretty silly. Per the source, Kellermann's work "suggested" that guns are associated with violence and homicide, and other researchers' work subsequently "confirm[ed]" that finding. You're trying to artificially weaken that very clear statement from the source, which is inappropriate.
You note that Scientific American doesn't link to the 30 studies mentioned in the source; this has absolutely no bearing on the discussion, and no validity as an argument. Scientific American is a reliable source. You don't get to make up a requirement that we can disregard a reliable source if studies aren't hyperlinked to your satisfaction.
You then state that the 30 peer-reviewed studies should be disregarded unless they explicitly state that they set out to replicate Kellermann's work. This is a very basic misunderstanding on your part about how science, scientific writing, and the scientific process operate. In any case, the link between these studies and Kellermann's work has already been made by a reliable source (the Scientific American article), so it's totally inappropriate for you as a Wikipedia editor to overrule that with your personal judgement that the studies aren't sufficiently similar.
I'm not going to engage in an edit war either, but I will note that this article is covered by WP:BLP, and as such, I'm not willing to allow language that falsely downplays the degree of support for Kellermann's work. Specifically, it is not appropriate to simply state that the NRA "disputes" his work. That language implies that this is a scientific back-and-forth where both "sides" have roughly equal validity. In reality, the peer-reviewed scholarly literature backs Kellermann's findings. If we don't make that clear, then we're violating WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT, by falsely implying rough equivalence where none exists.
Finally, I'm planning to re-instate the language about the NRA "attacking" Kellermann and his work. The objection—that this language implies a physical attack—is frankly ludicrous. First of all, Kellermann's research is intangible and cannot be physically attacked. Secondly, if the NRA had physically attacked a researcher, that would be remarkable and we'd certainly describe it in clear detail. The sources clearly support this language; the NRA did not respond by scientifically disputing Kellermann's findings, but rather waged a political campaign to deny funding and filed a baseless "ethics" complaint against Kellermann. MastCell Talk 22:57, 22 January 2018 (UTC)
I have reverted the addition of the following section:
However it was proven that most of the guns used in homicides in the 1993 Kellermann were not the same guns kept in the home. As the original 1993 study did not include information on the origin of the guns used in the homicides,
Gary Kleck used the dataset from a 1998 study from Kellermann that also looked at household homicides and gun ownership; this more recent study partially overlapped the years researched in the 1993 study as well as including two of the same cities (Seattle and Memphis). In this study Kellermann reported that only 14.2% of the guns used in household homicides were the same ones kept in the home. 67% involved guns brought to the home from elsewhere, and the remaning percentage unknown. Once this was taken into account by examing only incidences where the household homicide involved guns kept in the home, there were no significant associations between gun ownership and homicide risk.
[1] Kellermann responded to Kleck with the argument that the risk increase that was observed not necessarily needing to be the result of the same gun kept in the household. Kellermann further states that failed self-defense cases could result in the homicide risk that was attributable to guns.
[2]
This is for a couple reasons. One, using a single critical article to declare anything flatly "proven" is dubious; note that we do not say that any of Kellermann's findings are "proven." We might say that Kleck argued this in response to Kellermann, but not that Kleck "proved" Kellermann wrong. Secondly, the extensive back-and-forth and details are unsuitable for what is a brief biographical article; it places
undue weight on Kleck's critical analysis to give it more space than any one of Kellermann's own analyses are given. This article shouldn't turn into a back-and-forth place to spread a debate about gun control.
NorthBySouthBaranof (
talk) 04:56, 13 October 2018 (UTC)