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ArmenianâTatar massacres of 1905â1907 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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I would strongly advise the fans of Firuz Kazemzadeh not to give undue weight to his citations in this and other AA articles. He was a USA university professor, but he came from ethnic background not impartial to the subject and his non-mainstream views are used by revisionist apologetic pro Turkish pro-Azeri websites like this one by Turkish Coalition of America... https://www.tc-america.org/scholar/kazemzadeh.html
Tadeusz Swietochowski was a historian with strong ties to Azerbaijan period. It is not appropriate to portray him as neutral if he has a clear bias. Period. P.S., your names are almost the same - and you edit in the same ways on the same article - maybe you two are socks, or Grandmaster?-- 217.149.166.11 ( talk) 19:28, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Brandmeister you are invited to participate in the discussion as well, instead of keeping removing the sentence. --Armatura ( talk) 12:55, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Grandmaster can you please stay on the topic? It doesnât matter how respected by âtop scholarsâ is an academic that you are fond of, top academics still disclose their conflict of interest when presenting something even remotely / tangentiallly touching the subject of that conflict of interest, and itâs only natural to mention that conflict of interest here, where an academic with ties to Azerbaijani universities publishes things about Armenian-Tatar conflict and puts responsibility primarily on Armenians, contradicting other renown academics in the field. Removing that disclosure hand in hand with Brandmeister as âirrelevantâ doesnât serve any constructive purpose. --Armatura ( talk)
There are various issues imo. First, a Swedish scholar holding senior positions at Stockholm-based Institute for Security and Development Policy, Central Asia-Caucasus Institute & Silk Road Studies Program (CACI) and American Foreign Policy Council, in his "Small nations and great powers: a study of ethnopolitical conflict in the Caucasus"
. Is this for real? Is this about "ArmenianâTatar massacres" or about the Swedish scholar, where the sentence follows as provides various sources that give conflicting accounts on the Baku events
. So what's he telling? I didn't learn anything from it. Should be removed completely. Same applies for (the author of Armenia: The Survival of a Nation,[11]
, an Austrian producer of films of Austrian-German-Turkish co-production and a denier of Armenian genocide[14]
, a Baku-based Dutch correspondent known for stressing the need to obtain insight in âthe other side of the storyâ,
and the recent edit warring. This is not how it's should be. Anyone can enter their wiki page and see their views. This page is not about them, but about the information they provide. So that's not a gravedance @
Armatura:.
Beshogur (
talk) 22:08, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
If you have problems with the source, you know what to do. Take it to WP:RSN.- stop this and read what I'm actually saying. Not once I talked about the source's reliablity which you don't see for some reason, I'm asking about his honors to be mentioned that's not the same as saying "I want this to go to RSN" or "source isn't RS".
But why do we need to copy his whole biography here?- Who said this, why are you being intentionally hyperbolic? What I and others are saying is crystal clear and shouldn't be hard to understand. Also, please revert yourself, as this seems to be WP:CRUSH with unreasonable explanations for your reverts. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 12:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Grandmaster you removed that half a sentence many times now, first edit warring with the IP, and continuing same behaviour now. You well know that it doesnât have to be 3 reverts within 24 hours to be considered edit warring, itâs the attitude. You are well aware of lower threshold of sanctions in Armenia Azerbaijan topic. You keep saying âirrelevantâ without providing any sound logic that would convince others. You started deleting it which initiated edit war. This ONUS is on you - the persistent deleter, to justify your delete and take it to whatever noticeboard you like. Iâm not saying âunreliableâ, Iâm saying bias / conflict of uninteresting should highlighted, please do not change what Iâm trying to say. Iâm afraid IJDLI-ism makes you to repetitively delete that phrase that a few editors including myself consider very relevant, and you fail to see that just by keeping reverting it while the discussion is ongoing youâre only worsening the problem. Youâre not the owner of this article, neither Brandmeister or another editor is. Please revert yourself, and do not modify anything related to the Polish historian with ties to Azeri university till a consensus is reached either here or on noticeboard or somewhere else. If youâre busy, Iâll take it to RfC or a noticeboard in a day or two, but till that please undo your changes, otherwise you may get reported for edit warring and article owning, there will be no second warning. --Armatura ( talk) 10:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Kevo327, could you please explain this revert, and restoration of the tag inserted by the banned user? Why is this tag valid, and why do we need a source better than the best source on the modern history of Azerbaijan, a scholar with international acclaim? Grand master 09:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
an Honorary Doctor of Khazar University and Baku State University.[11]isn't independent from the issue, as well as being an expert in Azerbaijani history, not both Armenian and Azerbaijani history, which would also expose him to largely biased and one sided primary sources. This is discussed above, also the user was banned for edit warring, that doesn't automatically dismiss any valid point he made. - Kevo327 ( talk) 16:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
According to Swietochowski, 128 Armenian and 158 "Tatar" villages were destroyed. The typo in the article was the result of edits by someone. As we can see, Swietochowski provided accurate quotes, so there cannot be any doubts about the quality of his research. Grand master 10:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
To add further proof Swietochowski is a WP:FRINGE source, here he is denying the Armenian genocide. The three other speakers are also infamous genocide deniers. -- Dallavid ( talk) 21:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Tadeusz Swietochowski was a prominent scholar whose book received positive reviews from other scholars. And engaging in original research to call someone a genocide denier is unacceptable. You need to bring reliable sources to support this claim. Your personal interpretation of a YouTube video is not a reliable source, plus YouTube videos are not accepted as sources. Grand master 09:20, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Itâs important to attribute with background about the author. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 12:45, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Please make sure you are translating correctly when adding material in the English language. The referenced material does not make sense. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 18:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I donât believe he should be included in the article considering he has no academic background and denies the genocide. Goes against Wikipedia standards for referencing. Referring to this: âOn the other hand, Erich Feigl, an Austrian producer of Austrian-German-Turkish films and a denier of Armenian genocide has said that the Dashnaks committed terrorist acts (similar to those orchestrated in the Ottoman Empire) against the Azeri majority in Shusha, Baku and Ganja, leading to the eruption of violence and elimination of most of the Azerbaijani leading stratum in Baku.â Nocturnal781 ( talk) 23:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
Armenia,
Azerbaijan, or related conflicts, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
ArmenianâTatar massacres of 1905â1907 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This page has archives. Sections older than 90 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
I would strongly advise the fans of Firuz Kazemzadeh not to give undue weight to his citations in this and other AA articles. He was a USA university professor, but he came from ethnic background not impartial to the subject and his non-mainstream views are used by revisionist apologetic pro Turkish pro-Azeri websites like this one by Turkish Coalition of America... https://www.tc-america.org/scholar/kazemzadeh.html
Tadeusz Swietochowski was a historian with strong ties to Azerbaijan period. It is not appropriate to portray him as neutral if he has a clear bias. Period. P.S., your names are almost the same - and you edit in the same ways on the same article - maybe you two are socks, or Grandmaster?-- 217.149.166.11 ( talk) 19:28, 24 December 2021 (UTC)
Brandmeister you are invited to participate in the discussion as well, instead of keeping removing the sentence. --Armatura ( talk) 12:55, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
Grandmaster can you please stay on the topic? It doesnât matter how respected by âtop scholarsâ is an academic that you are fond of, top academics still disclose their conflict of interest when presenting something even remotely / tangentiallly touching the subject of that conflict of interest, and itâs only natural to mention that conflict of interest here, where an academic with ties to Azerbaijani universities publishes things about Armenian-Tatar conflict and puts responsibility primarily on Armenians, contradicting other renown academics in the field. Removing that disclosure hand in hand with Brandmeister as âirrelevantâ doesnât serve any constructive purpose. --Armatura ( talk)
There are various issues imo. First, a Swedish scholar holding senior positions at Stockholm-based Institute for Security and Development Policy, Central Asia-Caucasus Institute & Silk Road Studies Program (CACI) and American Foreign Policy Council, in his "Small nations and great powers: a study of ethnopolitical conflict in the Caucasus"
. Is this for real? Is this about "ArmenianâTatar massacres" or about the Swedish scholar, where the sentence follows as provides various sources that give conflicting accounts on the Baku events
. So what's he telling? I didn't learn anything from it. Should be removed completely. Same applies for (the author of Armenia: The Survival of a Nation,[11]
, an Austrian producer of films of Austrian-German-Turkish co-production and a denier of Armenian genocide[14]
, a Baku-based Dutch correspondent known for stressing the need to obtain insight in âthe other side of the storyâ,
and the recent edit warring. This is not how it's should be. Anyone can enter their wiki page and see their views. This page is not about them, but about the information they provide. So that's not a gravedance @
Armatura:.
Beshogur (
talk) 22:08, 25 December 2021 (UTC)
If you have problems with the source, you know what to do. Take it to WP:RSN.- stop this and read what I'm actually saying. Not once I talked about the source's reliablity which you don't see for some reason, I'm asking about his honors to be mentioned that's not the same as saying "I want this to go to RSN" or "source isn't RS".
But why do we need to copy his whole biography here?- Who said this, why are you being intentionally hyperbolic? What I and others are saying is crystal clear and shouldn't be hard to understand. Also, please revert yourself, as this seems to be WP:CRUSH with unreasonable explanations for your reverts. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 12:24, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Grandmaster you removed that half a sentence many times now, first edit warring with the IP, and continuing same behaviour now. You well know that it doesnât have to be 3 reverts within 24 hours to be considered edit warring, itâs the attitude. You are well aware of lower threshold of sanctions in Armenia Azerbaijan topic. You keep saying âirrelevantâ without providing any sound logic that would convince others. You started deleting it which initiated edit war. This ONUS is on you - the persistent deleter, to justify your delete and take it to whatever noticeboard you like. Iâm not saying âunreliableâ, Iâm saying bias / conflict of uninteresting should highlighted, please do not change what Iâm trying to say. Iâm afraid IJDLI-ism makes you to repetitively delete that phrase that a few editors including myself consider very relevant, and you fail to see that just by keeping reverting it while the discussion is ongoing youâre only worsening the problem. Youâre not the owner of this article, neither Brandmeister or another editor is. Please revert yourself, and do not modify anything related to the Polish historian with ties to Azeri university till a consensus is reached either here or on noticeboard or somewhere else. If youâre busy, Iâll take it to RfC or a noticeboard in a day or two, but till that please undo your changes, otherwise you may get reported for edit warring and article owning, there will be no second warning. --Armatura ( talk) 10:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
Kevo327, could you please explain this revert, and restoration of the tag inserted by the banned user? Why is this tag valid, and why do we need a source better than the best source on the modern history of Azerbaijan, a scholar with international acclaim? Grand master 09:50, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
an Honorary Doctor of Khazar University and Baku State University.[11]isn't independent from the issue, as well as being an expert in Azerbaijani history, not both Armenian and Azerbaijani history, which would also expose him to largely biased and one sided primary sources. This is discussed above, also the user was banned for edit warring, that doesn't automatically dismiss any valid point he made. - Kevo327 ( talk) 16:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
According to Swietochowski, 128 Armenian and 158 "Tatar" villages were destroyed. The typo in the article was the result of edits by someone. As we can see, Swietochowski provided accurate quotes, so there cannot be any doubts about the quality of his research. Grand master 10:07, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
To add further proof Swietochowski is a WP:FRINGE source, here he is denying the Armenian genocide. The three other speakers are also infamous genocide deniers. -- Dallavid ( talk) 21:44, 20 February 2023 (UTC)
Tadeusz Swietochowski was a prominent scholar whose book received positive reviews from other scholars. And engaging in original research to call someone a genocide denier is unacceptable. You need to bring reliable sources to support this claim. Your personal interpretation of a YouTube video is not a reliable source, plus YouTube videos are not accepted as sources. Grand master 09:20, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
Itâs important to attribute with background about the author. ZaniGiovanni ( talk) 12:45, 4 January 2022 (UTC)
Please make sure you are translating correctly when adding material in the English language. The referenced material does not make sense. Nocturnal781 ( talk) 18:29, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
I donât believe he should be included in the article considering he has no academic background and denies the genocide. Goes against Wikipedia standards for referencing. Referring to this: âOn the other hand, Erich Feigl, an Austrian producer of Austrian-German-Turkish films and a denier of Armenian genocide has said that the Dashnaks committed terrorist acts (similar to those orchestrated in the Ottoman Empire) against the Azeri majority in Shusha, Baku and Ganja, leading to the eruption of violence and elimination of most of the Azerbaijani leading stratum in Baku.â Nocturnal781 ( talk) 23:23, 14 March 2023 (UTC)