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Aram Khachaturian was "entirely a creation of the Soviet musical and dance establishment"? | ||||||||||
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I am being threatened with 'blocking' by one 'Serouj' -- who has now even *deleted* a *properly sourced* reference I provided that happens to contradict his personal ethnic-nationalist fantasies. What I am 'guilty of' is the mere attempt to construct a lede paragraph that makes it straightforwardly clear that Khatchaturian was actually born in Georgia, not Armenia, and was thus 'administratively' Georgian by birth (and later 'Soviet-Georgian'), even if he was ethnically and culturally Armenian.
I can easily see why the Armenian nationalist lobby wants to make Khatchaturian 'Soviet-Armenian'; but I insist that it is not wikipedia's job to pander to ethnic-nationalist pressure-groups in this way. I believe 'Serouj' -- an Armenian with a history of aggressively pro-Armenian edits and postings -- is treating me in an unfair way in the interests of his political agenda. Pfistermeister ( talk) 01:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
It's so funny to see how contributors with 0 knowledge and understanding of region, history, and culture, label those who do have understanding "nationalists" and consider themself "objective". I hate wasting my time on incompetent people, so I will not go over all the perls met here, though just one example of Lezginka dance being Georgian in your opinion, and not Lezghin while Lezginka being "Lezghin's/Lezghin smth" in Russian, perfectly shows terrible incompetence of contributors, and their "objectivness".
As already mentioned Tbilisi, a city in Russian Empire, and capital of Tiflis province by that time was armenian cultural centre, with 38% (majority) of city being armenians. Even without googling I can mention about 20 armenian writers, poets, artists, millitary officers, etc, who were born, lived and created in Tbilisi. Still it's first time I come across someone who thinks that they were Georgians. At that time there simply was NO Georgia and NO Armenia. If we follow your logic, and determine nationality (or ethnicity as you call it in west) by place of birth, those who were born in Tiflis by beginning of 20th century, would first be Armenian, then Georgian or Russian (with last two having pretty same chances - 28% and 26%). BTW, Baku was another armenian center by that time. With Gumri, being only major city in Eastern Armenia and Yerevan still being smth like big village and not a city suitable for art or science. Lot of Western Armenian writers were born and lived all their live in Stambul, does it make them Turkish? :) Well, let's go for some statistics.
Georgian wikipedia considers Aram Kchatryan to be Armenian composers (follow the first interwiki, after birth/death dates/places)
Let me sum it up: A. Khachaturyan considers himself Armenian, Georgians consider him Armenian, Armenians consider him Armenian. Researchers consider him Armenian. A lot of his works are based/enspired by armenian folk/culture in general, last one being most important, as when we talk about an artist being of X nationality, we first of all mean his works were tangibly influenced and/or influenced X culture. In this case, Khachaturyan, neither was influenced by Georgian culture/folk, nor influenced Georgian culture.
His house-museum is in Yerevan, Armenia, several concert halls, musical schools/college are named by A. Kchaturyan in Armenia, in lot of Armenia cities, you can find streets named by Khachaturyan, he was placed on armenian banknot. You wouldn't find anything like that in Georgia, and there's just one street and one monument in Russia, Moscow. His recognitions and honors, were being first given by Soviet Armenian Republic, and only 6-7 years later other Soviet republics would grant him same honors (check ru:wp for list, or website of house-museum), he was the author of Anthem of Soviet Armenia, etc, etc.. I mean it's just so obvious, that it's hard to explain. And only "Pfistermeister" being sure that he was Georgian, and those who disagree with his original research and personal POV are "armenian nationalists". DIXI. Regards, -- Aleksey Chalabyan a.k.a. Xelgen ( talk) 13:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Should we make a page similar to other composers that has all of his compositions to avoid taking up space on the main Khachaturian article? -- Chrismiceli ( talk) 21:22, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
This section of the article seems to me very POV and questionable in its assumption; it's one thing to recognise that Khachaturian to a degree benefited from the Soviet Union's "championship" of ethnic minorities (within the strictures and distortions of Stalinist cultural policies), but quite another to claim he was working for the regime rather than for his colleagues (a significant distinction which helps explain why he fell from official favour in 1948). Further, the section has next to no citations to back its claims about Khachaturian's alleged loyalty to the regime. I propose merging matters of fact from this section into the "Life" section of the article, unless anyone can provide concrete evidence that Khachaturian was doing anything more than "rendering unto Caesar" in his supposed allegiance to communism. Alfietucker ( talk) 00:00, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The tweak made regarding the degree of popularity enjoyed by K's Masquerade Suite highlights the fact (for me, at least) that Wikipedia is an international website, and what is true of a work's popularity in one country may not be quite so true in another. I don't think Masquerade, as fine a suite as it is, can be described today as "extremely" popular in either the UK or the USA - certainly not in relation to such works as Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, or even Holst's The Planets. For this reason I am reverting this to "relatively", and if anyone feels this does the work less than justice then I would urge them to consider specifying exactly where/amongst which audience the work is "extremely" popular. Alfietucker ( talk) 13:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict)Why should we give bastardized pronunciations that no-one actually uses? Per the MOS, we should give the pronunciation in English and the native language, in this case Armenian. — kwami ( talk) 00:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: Instead of edit-warring, I suggest you get involved in this discussion.
"A dictionary is better that a bastardized pronunciation that is neither English nor Armenian)" is a problematic line that shows your POV-pushing. Mind explaining how it is "a bastardized pronunciation"? Do you speak any Armenian? If not, then please abstain from such comments. -- Երևանցի talk 00:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@CorinneSD: Just answer to this one question. Is it OK to add a personal opinion ("bastardized" in this case) to the article? Is it not POV? -- Երևանցի talk 01:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
(EC)
OK, just in case this comes up again, I'll try an explain in lay terms why the English pronunciation suggested in the reference isn't any good. Basically, it's because no-one says it that way. Not even radio announcers. Not even the author of the book themself.
Have a look at " ah-rahm kah-chah-toor-YAHN". The "ah" repersents the sound in "father". Remembering that, try saying "AH-rahm KAH-chah-TOOR-yahn" (/ˈɑːrɑːm ˌkɑːtʃɑːˈtʊərjɑːn/) out loud. It just sounds wrong, like a voice synthesizer, and certainly not how "Aram Khachaturian" is pronounced in English. The reason for this is that all those "ah as in father"-s in a row is just not the way that sounds in English work. Does that make sense? -- Shirt58 ( talk) 08:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Երևանցի, everyone here disagrees with you, so resolve it here rather than edit warring. When you took it to ANI, they even said that "bastardized pronunciation" was an accurate description. What you're promoting is an attempt to approximate the Armenian pronunciation in English. That's why you think it's "closer". (Which is also a "personal opinion", and so by your own argument inadmissable.) But it's not how it's actually pronounced in English. Again, you're effectively arguing that Աարոն Կոպլենդ should be changed to Էրըն Քըւպլընդ because you know better. Here on WP, we give the actual English and the actual Armenian, not some bastardized approximation of the Armenian. — kwami ( talk) 22:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
NODE, Collins and dictionary.com all give kwami's transcription. Are none of these reliable? — lfdder 22:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
There are at least two different prounciations of his name. The Collins English Dictionary gives /ˈærəm ˌkɑːtʃəˈtʊəriən/ arr-əm kah-chə-toor-i-ən,[1] while The Well-tempered Announcer: A Pronunciation Guide to Classical Music suggests ah-rahm kah-chah-toor-yahn.[2]
Well, these two are definitely not what I'd call reliable on the pronunciation specifically. It would be WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to give them as much weight as dictionaries. — lfdder 00:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
An uninvolved admin suggested to include both pronunciations in the article. Unless there is objection, I will go ahead and add it to the article in the upcoming days. -- Երևանցի talk 23:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
@Michael Bednarek: kwami's arrogance is nothing new. Don't expect anything else from a long-time editor and an admin who's OK with inserting his personal opinion into article lead ("bastardized") because he think he's right. He also seems to be OK with personal attacks (e.g. calling me "ignorant"). According to him (and lfdder), his supposed degree in linguistics makes him superior and also gives him the right to dismiss reliable sources on irrational grounds. His comment reveals that he does support POV-pushing. Note that he says afaict, directly admitting that it's his opinion, not a fact. -- Երևանցի talk 20:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
@ Fayenatic london: Could you please clarify your position? -- Երևանցի talk 20:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
This is more to do with spelling that pronounciation, but I have added a dubious tag against the claim that his name "was transformed into Khachaturian in Russian". It is well known that the "yan" ending that is seen at the end of most Armenian surnames in modern Armenia arose as a result of Russian influence - the difficulty of transcribing "ian" into Cyrillic letters. The "ian" ending is the traditional way that the ending on Armenian names have been rendered in Western European languages. I realise that what may be intended is an explanation of how Khachatrian/Khachatryan became "Khachaturian" - but if so the explanation is missleading because it inplies that "yan" is correct and Armenian - and that "ian" is not, whereas thereverse is true: it is actually "ian" which is historically more correct with "yan" a recent arival due to Russian influences. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 15:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
No mention of this at all... I'm guessing he would have spoken Russian, Armenian and Georgian? 86.148.66.208 ( talk) 19:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I have just removed a quote by Norman Lebrecht since he is not an authority on Khachaturian, and his quote about Khachaturian's "only crime" was totally wrong/beside the point. Please note that Lebrecht is a journalist (not a musicologist of any description), who sometimes (very occasionally if dealing with a Western European artist, rather less often otherwise) gets his facts right. What he writes, though, is scarcely if ever based on primary research of any kind, so he is - at best - a dodgy tertiary source which is quite inappropriate for this article. Please could anything sourced to his writing be double-checked and more factually reliable sources found to support them. Alfietucker ( talk) 08:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Is there any consensus to add an info-box? Is this over-ruled or prohibited by the GA status of the article? Martinevans123 ( talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article." ... "We think it is normally best, therefore, to avoid infoboxes altogether for classical musicians, and we prefer to add an infobox to an article only following consensus for that inclusion on the article's talk page." -- Երևանցի talk 16:14, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I added an infobox and am considering on deleting it after reading Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. Shoud I remove it? ~ Marcus1093 ( talk) 11:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
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The claim he was taught composition by Glière does not appear to be borne out by either of the biographies of Khachaturian by Shneerson or by Victor Yuzefovich. In the absence of any citation for this claim, I have deleted it. Alfietucker ( talk) 13:04, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Aram Khachaturian article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
Aram Khachaturian has been listed as one of the Music good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||
| ||||||||||
A
fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the "
Did you know?" column on
January 28, 2015. The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that the composer
Aram Khachaturian was "entirely a creation of the Soviet musical and dance establishment"? | ||||||||||
Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the " On this day..." column on May 1, 2022, and May 1, 2023. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
I am being threatened with 'blocking' by one 'Serouj' -- who has now even *deleted* a *properly sourced* reference I provided that happens to contradict his personal ethnic-nationalist fantasies. What I am 'guilty of' is the mere attempt to construct a lede paragraph that makes it straightforwardly clear that Khatchaturian was actually born in Georgia, not Armenia, and was thus 'administratively' Georgian by birth (and later 'Soviet-Georgian'), even if he was ethnically and culturally Armenian.
I can easily see why the Armenian nationalist lobby wants to make Khatchaturian 'Soviet-Armenian'; but I insist that it is not wikipedia's job to pander to ethnic-nationalist pressure-groups in this way. I believe 'Serouj' -- an Armenian with a history of aggressively pro-Armenian edits and postings -- is treating me in an unfair way in the interests of his political agenda. Pfistermeister ( talk) 01:12, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
It's so funny to see how contributors with 0 knowledge and understanding of region, history, and culture, label those who do have understanding "nationalists" and consider themself "objective". I hate wasting my time on incompetent people, so I will not go over all the perls met here, though just one example of Lezginka dance being Georgian in your opinion, and not Lezghin while Lezginka being "Lezghin's/Lezghin smth" in Russian, perfectly shows terrible incompetence of contributors, and their "objectivness".
As already mentioned Tbilisi, a city in Russian Empire, and capital of Tiflis province by that time was armenian cultural centre, with 38% (majority) of city being armenians. Even without googling I can mention about 20 armenian writers, poets, artists, millitary officers, etc, who were born, lived and created in Tbilisi. Still it's first time I come across someone who thinks that they were Georgians. At that time there simply was NO Georgia and NO Armenia. If we follow your logic, and determine nationality (or ethnicity as you call it in west) by place of birth, those who were born in Tiflis by beginning of 20th century, would first be Armenian, then Georgian or Russian (with last two having pretty same chances - 28% and 26%). BTW, Baku was another armenian center by that time. With Gumri, being only major city in Eastern Armenia and Yerevan still being smth like big village and not a city suitable for art or science. Lot of Western Armenian writers were born and lived all their live in Stambul, does it make them Turkish? :) Well, let's go for some statistics.
Georgian wikipedia considers Aram Kchatryan to be Armenian composers (follow the first interwiki, after birth/death dates/places)
Let me sum it up: A. Khachaturyan considers himself Armenian, Georgians consider him Armenian, Armenians consider him Armenian. Researchers consider him Armenian. A lot of his works are based/enspired by armenian folk/culture in general, last one being most important, as when we talk about an artist being of X nationality, we first of all mean his works were tangibly influenced and/or influenced X culture. In this case, Khachaturyan, neither was influenced by Georgian culture/folk, nor influenced Georgian culture.
His house-museum is in Yerevan, Armenia, several concert halls, musical schools/college are named by A. Kchaturyan in Armenia, in lot of Armenia cities, you can find streets named by Khachaturyan, he was placed on armenian banknot. You wouldn't find anything like that in Georgia, and there's just one street and one monument in Russia, Moscow. His recognitions and honors, were being first given by Soviet Armenian Republic, and only 6-7 years later other Soviet republics would grant him same honors (check ru:wp for list, or website of house-museum), he was the author of Anthem of Soviet Armenia, etc, etc.. I mean it's just so obvious, that it's hard to explain. And only "Pfistermeister" being sure that he was Georgian, and those who disagree with his original research and personal POV are "armenian nationalists". DIXI. Regards, -- Aleksey Chalabyan a.k.a. Xelgen ( talk) 13:51, 12 July 2009 (UTC)
Should we make a page similar to other composers that has all of his compositions to avoid taking up space on the main Khachaturian article? -- Chrismiceli ( talk) 21:22, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
This section of the article seems to me very POV and questionable in its assumption; it's one thing to recognise that Khachaturian to a degree benefited from the Soviet Union's "championship" of ethnic minorities (within the strictures and distortions of Stalinist cultural policies), but quite another to claim he was working for the regime rather than for his colleagues (a significant distinction which helps explain why he fell from official favour in 1948). Further, the section has next to no citations to back its claims about Khachaturian's alleged loyalty to the regime. I propose merging matters of fact from this section into the "Life" section of the article, unless anyone can provide concrete evidence that Khachaturian was doing anything more than "rendering unto Caesar" in his supposed allegiance to communism. Alfietucker ( talk) 00:00, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
The tweak made regarding the degree of popularity enjoyed by K's Masquerade Suite highlights the fact (for me, at least) that Wikipedia is an international website, and what is true of a work's popularity in one country may not be quite so true in another. I don't think Masquerade, as fine a suite as it is, can be described today as "extremely" popular in either the UK or the USA - certainly not in relation to such works as Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture, or even Holst's The Planets. For this reason I am reverting this to "relatively", and if anyone feels this does the work less than justice then I would urge them to consider specifying exactly where/amongst which audience the work is "extremely" popular. Alfietucker ( talk) 13:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
( edit conflict)Why should we give bastardized pronunciations that no-one actually uses? Per the MOS, we should give the pronunciation in English and the native language, in this case Armenian. — kwami ( talk) 00:10, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: Instead of edit-warring, I suggest you get involved in this discussion.
"A dictionary is better that a bastardized pronunciation that is neither English nor Armenian)" is a problematic line that shows your POV-pushing. Mind explaining how it is "a bastardized pronunciation"? Do you speak any Armenian? If not, then please abstain from such comments. -- Երևանցի talk 00:07, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
@CorinneSD: Just answer to this one question. Is it OK to add a personal opinion ("bastardized" in this case) to the article? Is it not POV? -- Երևանցի talk 01:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
(EC)
OK, just in case this comes up again, I'll try an explain in lay terms why the English pronunciation suggested in the reference isn't any good. Basically, it's because no-one says it that way. Not even radio announcers. Not even the author of the book themself.
Have a look at " ah-rahm kah-chah-toor-YAHN". The "ah" repersents the sound in "father". Remembering that, try saying "AH-rahm KAH-chah-TOOR-yahn" (/ˈɑːrɑːm ˌkɑːtʃɑːˈtʊərjɑːn/) out loud. It just sounds wrong, like a voice synthesizer, and certainly not how "Aram Khachaturian" is pronounced in English. The reason for this is that all those "ah as in father"-s in a row is just not the way that sounds in English work. Does that make sense? -- Shirt58 ( talk) 08:38, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Երևանցի, everyone here disagrees with you, so resolve it here rather than edit warring. When you took it to ANI, they even said that "bastardized pronunciation" was an accurate description. What you're promoting is an attempt to approximate the Armenian pronunciation in English. That's why you think it's "closer". (Which is also a "personal opinion", and so by your own argument inadmissable.) But it's not how it's actually pronounced in English. Again, you're effectively arguing that Աարոն Կոպլենդ should be changed to Էրըն Քըւպլընդ because you know better. Here on WP, we give the actual English and the actual Armenian, not some bastardized approximation of the Armenian. — kwami ( talk) 22:05, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
NODE, Collins and dictionary.com all give kwami's transcription. Are none of these reliable? — lfdder 22:42, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
There are at least two different prounciations of his name. The Collins English Dictionary gives /ˈærəm ˌkɑːtʃəˈtʊəriən/ arr-əm kah-chə-toor-i-ən,[1] while The Well-tempered Announcer: A Pronunciation Guide to Classical Music suggests ah-rahm kah-chah-toor-yahn.[2]
Well, these two are definitely not what I'd call reliable on the pronunciation specifically. It would be WP:UNDUEWEIGHT to give them as much weight as dictionaries. — lfdder 00:40, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
An uninvolved admin suggested to include both pronunciations in the article. Unless there is objection, I will go ahead and add it to the article in the upcoming days. -- Երևանցի talk 23:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
@Michael Bednarek: kwami's arrogance is nothing new. Don't expect anything else from a long-time editor and an admin who's OK with inserting his personal opinion into article lead ("bastardized") because he think he's right. He also seems to be OK with personal attacks (e.g. calling me "ignorant"). According to him (and lfdder), his supposed degree in linguistics makes him superior and also gives him the right to dismiss reliable sources on irrational grounds. His comment reveals that he does support POV-pushing. Note that he says afaict, directly admitting that it's his opinion, not a fact. -- Երևանցի talk 20:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
@ Fayenatic london: Could you please clarify your position? -- Երևանցի talk 20:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
This is more to do with spelling that pronounciation, but I have added a dubious tag against the claim that his name "was transformed into Khachaturian in Russian". It is well known that the "yan" ending that is seen at the end of most Armenian surnames in modern Armenia arose as a result of Russian influence - the difficulty of transcribing "ian" into Cyrillic letters. The "ian" ending is the traditional way that the ending on Armenian names have been rendered in Western European languages. I realise that what may be intended is an explanation of how Khachatrian/Khachatryan became "Khachaturian" - but if so the explanation is missleading because it inplies that "yan" is correct and Armenian - and that "ian" is not, whereas thereverse is true: it is actually "ian" which is historically more correct with "yan" a recent arival due to Russian influences. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 15:13, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
No mention of this at all... I'm guessing he would have spoken Russian, Armenian and Georgian? 86.148.66.208 ( talk) 19:39, 31 October 2014 (UTC)
I have just removed a quote by Norman Lebrecht since he is not an authority on Khachaturian, and his quote about Khachaturian's "only crime" was totally wrong/beside the point. Please note that Lebrecht is a journalist (not a musicologist of any description), who sometimes (very occasionally if dealing with a Western European artist, rather less often otherwise) gets his facts right. What he writes, though, is scarcely if ever based on primary research of any kind, so he is - at best - a dodgy tertiary source which is quite inappropriate for this article. Please could anything sourced to his writing be double-checked and more factually reliable sources found to support them. Alfietucker ( talk) 08:46, 2 November 2014 (UTC)
Is there any consensus to add an info-box? Is this over-ruled or prohibited by the GA status of the article? Martinevans123 ( talk) 16:00, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article." ... "We think it is normally best, therefore, to avoid infoboxes altogether for classical musicians, and we prefer to add an infobox to an article only following consensus for that inclusion on the article's talk page." -- Երևանցի talk 16:14, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I added an infobox and am considering on deleting it after reading Wikipedia:WikiProject_Composers#Biographical_infoboxes. Shoud I remove it? ~ Marcus1093 ( talk) 11:34, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 19:08, 30 March 2016 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:02, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:11, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
The claim he was taught composition by Glière does not appear to be borne out by either of the biographies of Khachaturian by Shneerson or by Victor Yuzefovich. In the absence of any citation for this claim, I have deleted it. Alfietucker ( talk) 13:04, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 17:53, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:07, 20 March 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:37, 20 March 2022 (UTC)