This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"He continued to be a slave trader for several years after his experience, but with more compassion." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fantrl ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 29 June 2005 (UTC)
How can you trade slaves "with more compassion"?
I would say by treating them well, taking time to ensure their well-being, and seeing to it that they leave his care only by going to a good owner who will treat them well. As I understand the slave trade, most of the slaves picked up by these ships were already slaves, and such a fate would be pretty much the best thing that could happen to them at that point. Is it still wrong? Yes. But maybe, perversely, better for the individual slave, even if it perpetuated the institution as a whole. -- Paxsboy 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence this experience had any influence on his slave trading or his converson to Christianity. The sudden alteration in his attitudes because of a storm at sea is, I believe, a myth. Snopes and other less easily influenced sources say this. Stunz ( talk) 16:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Most Christians thoughout history have seen no problem with combining slavery and a belief in Christ. And remember that the most devout Moslems in Arabia kept slaves until the 1960's - or still have slaves, if some reports are to be believed. JohnC ( talk) 10:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
There is nothing odd about the captain of a slaves transport being a Christian - most were. Half of the USA kept slaves until 1865 - but 99% of the people, Black and White, professed to be Christians. All of the slaves transported across the Atlantic were already slaves when loaded in Africa. Most were enslaved by their own chiefs, or by Arabs. They probably would have had a better life as slaves in the New World than if they had stayed in the old - free or a slaves.
124.197.15.138 (
talk) 08:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Some times it is necessary to include a trivia heading. Not many people know this but Swing Low Sweet Chariot can be sung underneath Amazing Grace. Try it out. Kosmo9288 03:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, the song can be sung to tune of the theme song for Gilligan's Island. Someone (who I doubt has actually tried it) has claimed this needs fact checking. How do you tell people to fact check something they can do for themselves? (By actually trying to sing it to that tune?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.249.162.120 ( talk) 23:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
"A great irony of the song's history and its role in the civil rights era is that Newton reached his greatest success in the slave trade after writing the song and being born again (although this is not to imply a connection between his profession and his faith)."
This statement does not match up with other information available on Wikipedia.org.
The article on John Newton only mentions his slave trade career in passing. The majority of the article focuses on his time as an Anglican priest so to suggest that reached his "greatest success" in any profession other than the one for which he is most well known, is misleading.
Also there is no indication that he continued his slave trade while serving as a priest and it was during his time as a priest that he penned Amazing Grace. He claimed to have converted to Christianity in 1748 and he continued as a slave trader for some time following. He entered the priesthood in 1764 and did not meet the co-author of the hymn until 1767. According to this page, the hymn was written in sometime in 1772 and it was first published as a collection of hymns in 1779.
This statement needs to be deleted.
Jackieplondon 19:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
you forgot to mention the fact that the song was also recorded by the successful japanese j-pop singer Mika Nakashima in two different versions, one of them used in her album "BEST", and the other one in her album "TRUE", you did write it in articles referring to the singer, but you did not mention her here(both of the versions can be watched on youtube). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forevergitsandff ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The song was also sung in honor of Jerry Garcia by the Bob Weir's Ratdog on December 8, 1995 following his death on August 9, 1995.
christian childrens fund had a version done of amazing grace sung by a male accapella,can anybody tell me who the artist is.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Latinsc2 ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Who is the CCM Community? Can someone expand that abbreviation and wikilink it? SchmuckyTheCat
Does this movie actually have anything to do with the song? If not, why is it even mentioned? ( ApJ ( talk) 13:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC))
For some reason I don't see, this article is in Category:Song_articles_missing_an_audio_sample, and it has audio samples, now, so maybe the code for taking it out of that category is broken. I don't see an explicit inclusion of this article in that category. BrewJay ( talk) 08:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Many believe that Newton heard the music from the slaves he transported who usually only knew 5 notes or what we call the "Black Notes" or what Europeans call Pentatonic. If you check most Slave Spirituals you'll find the same 5 black notes on almost all Negro Spirituals. There are many that actually believe the "Slave Scale" is the foundation of Newton's Amazing Grace.
A link that helps : http://pjcockrell.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/amazing-grace-just-the-black-notes/
Happy Understanding -- Taylor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.68.144 ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
There is enormous uncertainty about the modern tune- it could well have been written by Newton, albeit unlikely. What is most unlikely is that it was derived from negro songs. Typical African songs of the period would not have been recognisable as spirituals. Negro spirituals arose in America, derived more from English hymns than African music.
124.197.15.138 (
talk) 09:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The Native American Group Walela has recorded the song and the lyrics are available on their website, where it says that the Cherokee lyrics are public domain.
See the Walela Website for the listing of their recordings and see here the Cherokee Lyrics
What speaks against quoting the lyrics in the wiki article if they are public domain anyways? The author died in 1859.
Kangaroo 17:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisKangaroo ( talk • contribs)
I have nothing against pictures of bagpipers, but a picture of a bagpiper--even if we are told he's playing Amazing Grace--does not add to the article. It's not a picture of Amazing Grace, it doesn't actually say anything about Amazing Grace. If there were some way of seeing, from the picture, that it's a picture of Amazing Grace, that would be fine. But a picture of a bagpiper playing Scotland the Brave would look identical: indeed, we have only a flickr caption to tell what it claims to be. Tb ( talk) 20:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't use the undo tool (or at least, don't leave the automatic summary in) if you are reverting a good faith edit. What exactly where the "errors" contained in my edit and why did you revert it. I can't see how it introduced errors when I didn't actually change the text. Lists shouldn't be embedded in articles like this when prose would suffice or actually be an improvement. Regards. Woody ( talk) 22:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
~im doing an essay on the song amazing grace and would like anyones input on what they get out of the song -what it means to them. thank you 24.32.64.183 ( talk)sylvia 24.32.64.183 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC).
""New Britain" first appears in a shape note hymnal from 1829 called Columbian Harmony."
Most people seem to agree the Coumbian Harmony was published in 1825. Flapdragon ( talk) 11:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
There is more than one tunebook entitled Columbian Harmony. The one by William Moore of Wilson Co., Tennessee was published in 1825. The one by Benjamin Shaw and Charles Spilman of Kentucky was published in 1829. This is the one that contained not one but two versions of the tune later printed as New Britain. Finn Froding ( talk) 22:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
This little tidbit appears in the article:
the tune "New Britain" of which the composer is unknown and which is in William Walker's shape-note tunebook Southern Harmony, 1835.[3] Shape Note version from 1835.
The melody later known as "New Britain" first appears in Columbian Harmony (1829),
So, which is it? Did the tune first appear in 1835 or 1829? Or is the first sentence just horribly constructed, and meant to indicate that the tune was first put to these lyrics in 1835? What's going on, man? 68.102.237.253 ( talk) 06:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
(Copied from Moni3's talk page):
Moni3, there's a lot of good information in your rewritten article on Amazing Grace, but in my opinion it's too long and too broad. While it's certainly legitimate to claim that the poem was a response to a conversion experience, the same could be said about most of Newton's hymns. There's really not much to the "urban legend" that connects this song specifically with Newton's earlier participation in the slave trade, or with his much later opposition to it, yet your revision introduces the author precisely in these terms. The previous version of the article was much more circumspect in this regard. Much of the biographical coverage in the article duplicates that in the article on Newton, where it really belongs. And, while it is certainly appropriate to discuss the music for this popular hymn, is seems like a can of worms to refer to the tune as a "traditional melody" in the first paragraph, when its possible origins are discussed more fully later. There appear to be factual errors in the section on "Harmony Grove," and I have yet to see a single "scholar" cite even the slightest evidence that the melody is of Scots origin--it's merely feelgood speculation, not worth repeating in WP. I appreciate your edit and your careful citations, and I intend to make further edits in the coming weeks, but it seems a little disingenuous for you to thoroughly revise and expand an article and then immediately nominate it yourself for "good article" status. Finn Froding (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your responses. I will certainly take these into account, and will continue minor edits with a view toward addressing some of the questions, including Harmony Grove and the tune's relation to tradition. You write, quite reasonably, "The article is so far a summary of what has been written about "Amazing Grace" from multiple reliable sources." The thing is that much of what is written is not really about the poem, but about Newton's life, with a huge dose of conjecture trying to connect this one poem, uniquely, with these specific events. I have not found any evidence that Newton, or any of his contemporaries, made such a connection that isn't true of many of his other 280-some poems such as "Afflictions though they seem severe," or "Nay, I cannot let thee go." "'Tis passed--the dreadful stormy night," "When the poor pris’ner through a grate," etc. But because the song is a pop-culture fetish, it seems to invite conjecture, because anything that popular must have a good story, eh? Yes, it is a spiritual song about conversion, and the author was indeed a convert. But I suggest that it would be useful to incorporate much of the biographical detail on Newton into the Newton article and merely summarize the most verifiably relevant biography in the Amazing grace article.
I am familiar with the musical literature, and have Turner's book, which has turned up much useful information. He cites Harmony Grove, correctly, as the 1831 title of the now-familiar tune as printed in Virginia Harmony (1831). His only substantial citation on Scots origins of the tune is a comment by Peter van der Merwe, an author known for speculative flights. Richard Taruskin, while praising one of his recent works, characterizes the author as follows (Music and Letters 81 (2007): 134-9): "Its author, a South African librarian, is a self-taught, amateur musicologist with an eccentric vocabulary and a propensity for overstatement that he is loath to restrain. Its thesis is uncontroversial but the author is naive enough to believe that he is setting the world on its ear with it. Its method is cheerfully ‘verificationist’ or confirmation-biased, and it uses its debased standards of proof to advance historiographical absurdities." If this is the only source making such a claim, it's certainly suspect. There are strong reasons to suppose that the tune circulated in oral tradition before its 1829 publication--the publication history itself suggests this, with many variants appearing in the southern U.S. within a few years. To suggest an ultimate origin in the British Isles however, and even to narrow down the specific part of that archipelago, is treading on thin ice. Enough for now, I'll return to the article soon, but carefully and verifiably. Cheers. Finn Froding ( talk) 18:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Too much about Newton. It should be severely chopped. The paragraphs for the whole piece are too long anyway, and so is the lead. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 19:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
One idea would be to have a separate but linked article about Newton's life, rather than chopping information. That would make the article more concise about the hymn, while the historical information about the great man's life would be easily referenced by those interested, and probably easier to find by those searching for historical information about the author. 123.243.198.14 ( talk) 11:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
There appears to be two versions of the sixth verse. One that starts "When we've been there ten thousand years.." and another that starts "the earth will soon dissolve like snow..." Which one is right? Tallarchangel ( talk) 03:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
What exactly is an "African American spiritual"? Slaves were not US citizens, so this seems to be an anachronistic term on some level. Moreover, the term "negro spiritual" is used on the Wikipedia page that it links to. Copious examples of the use of negro spiritual are available. "African American spiritual" sounds like a neologism. Would like to change. HedgeFundBob ( talk) 09:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I have three questions regarding the reversion of my recent edits by User:Moni3:
Thank you, -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 14:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Retracking the discussion. BlueMoonlet added this paragraph: Over the years, "Amazing Grace" has been loved and valued by many people who do not share Newton's Calvinistic view of redemption and divine grace. Steve Turner explains this phenomenon as an example of Newton's subtlety, saying that the song's "theological distinctives were buried in its sinews rather than tattooed on its skin." For example, "when Newton referred to himself as a 'wretch' it was with total depravity in mind, but an opponent of the doctrine... could take it to mean a feeling of despondency. Likewise, 'I once was lost but now am found' was meant by Newton to emphasize his inability to save himself and thus his utter dependence on God, but it could be taken to mean 'I once felt confused and unsure of my direction in life but now I feel as though I am on the right path'."
I think this paragraph can be incorporated into the first in the section, which discusses the differing meanings of Newton's wretchedness. As it appears, the "wretch" discussion is addressed in the first and then third paragraphs, broken by the second. This is incongruous and ungraceful. See what I did there? Ha. Anyway...I have concerns about points being made succinctly and using as few words as possible while still being written on a professional level. The quotes by Turner are, in my opinion, too extensive and should be paraphrased. If Turner's own words are making the point for us, it should be quoted in full, and ideally, a comment that could never be made by Wikipedia: one that espouses a clear emotional or value opinion, which we are precluded from making by the NPOV policy.
I've attempted to join the two paragraphs:
In recent years, the words of the hymn have been changed in some religious publications to downplay a sense of imposed self-loathing by its singers. The second line, "That saved a wretch like me!" has been rewritten as "That saved and strengthened me", "save a soul like me", or "that saved and set me free". Kathleen Norris in her book Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith characterizes this transformation of the original words as "wretched English" making the line that replaces the original "laughably bland". Part of the reason for this change has been the altered interpretations of what wretchedness and grace means. Newton's Calvinistic view of redemption and divine grace formed his perspective that he considered himself as a sinner so vile that he was unable to change his life or be redeemed without God's help. Yet his lyrical subtlety, in Steve Turner's opinion, leaves the hymn's meaning open to a variety of Christian and non-Christian interpretations. "Wretch" also represents a period in Newton's life when he saw himself outcast and miserable, as he was when he was enslaved in Sierra Leone; his own arrogance was matched by how far he had fallen in his life.
Now I'm rather stuck in incorporating the following parts of what I wrote and what you did:
When Newton allowed his conversion to take place, it was a profound supernatural transformation. And
For example, "when Newton referred to himself as a 'wretch' it was with total depravity in mind, but an opponent of the doctrine... could take it to mean a feeling of despondency. Likewise, 'I once was lost but now am found' was meant by Newton to emphasize his inability to save himself and thus his utter dependence on God, but it could be taken to mean 'I once felt confused and unsure of my direction in life but now I feel as though I am on the right path'
BlueMoonlet, you seem to have a special interest (and this is not an accusation, just an observation) in Newton's Calvinist theological roots. When I constructed the article, I do not recall coming across points that were made in multiple sources that discussed Calvinism. Certainly it is in Turner, but usually if I'm hit over the head with a point by multiple sources then I include it in the article. I also have no background in theology or any particular religious influence, so I wrote only what I thought was covered by sources. After writing multiple featured articles on Wikipedia, I understand that when I form the majority of the article myself I inevitably color the material using my own values. I just hope I do it as fairly as possible most of the time. If I have no particular religious views, then none strike me as significant when they are mentioned in the sources.
So I'm not quite understanding your point: are you saying it's inaccurate that "Newton allowed his conversion to take place" if Newton was a strict Calvinist? The Bruner and Ware source I have makes it seem as if Newton had to reach his lowest point, the bottom of the barrel so to speak, in order to be able to accept God's salvation. In a less proselytizing way to write that, it came out as "allowed his conversion to take place". If you have specific objections to the way that's written, can you provide alternate wording? -- Moni3 ( talk) 16:23, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Regarding "Question 2" - I had a look at Turner and could not find a reference supporting the modern "communal understanding of redemption". Is this just a bit of personal essay, or did I overlook the reference? 69.1.23.134 ( talk) 02:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi - Just thought it was worth pointing out that it is not only Calvinists that believe in Total Depravity, or that grace must come from outwith ourselves. This is also, for example, the belief of Arminians. And, as Blue Moonlet says, Calvinism is certainly not dying out - I would say that it is increasing amonst evangelicals. 217.44.101.12 ( talk) 19:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi, can you please add citation for "It has been played following American national disasters such as such as the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the September 11 attacks". I can understand, that User Moni3 removed my request as obvious for Americans, but speaking as somebody from the other side of world without daily detailed media coverage of the events in question, I'd like to have some references for that. Regards 87.162.65.103 ( talk) 08:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I've got what I think is a rather useful, informative, non-commercial pages that includes sheet music for the New Britain melody. I didn't see sheet music available or referenced on any other part of this page, so I added a link. It was quickly removed, and I'm not sure why. OK, so I'm rather new to adding information on Wikipedia, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to offer what I think is useful information. ClintGoss ( talk) 16:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
So these were added to the bottom of the lead. They're free, so that's a plus. However, I'm not sure how relevant they are to the points of what sources have expressed and what has been summarized in the article.
I've hidden them. Anyone have any thoughts? -- Moni3 ( talk) 21:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
(I came from WP:FSC after I suspended the nomination) You mention the hymn tune used in Amazing Grace#"New Britain" tune. The brass version could add something there but adding it would mess up the block quote. -- Guerillero | My Talk | Review Me 01:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I honestly don't see a problem with Tony's additions on this and actual think even if not the best quality they most certainly have encyclopedic use. They don't have any copyright issues right?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
TTT, it appears to me that trying to add non-notable versions of a song to the lead of a Featured article (three of them no less), while stating that you only learned to upload sound files last week, may be an attempt by you to, as you have stated, "learn how to do a FS to keep up my main page been there done that thing"; please experiment elsewhere. Regarding Ava Maria, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Do you have sources discussing the notability of the songs you want to add here? If not, you might have better luck experimenting on a GA. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Re Blofeld, Risker's message not get through to you?
USAF Band version still not notable. More words on the talk page (Raul's too) doesn't change that.
Read article, Check sources=Quality work and understanding. Simplicity. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Since I was asked to give my two cents on the issue - I think Tony's song contributions are very good and definitely should be included this article. Finding free music for these articles is hard, and finding good quality music is harder still. The version I uploaded isn't great - it's not a bad illustration of the 'revivalist' style, but there's much better representations of the the song. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having multiple versions of the song in this article. Personally, I think the "standard" or preferred version should played on a bagpipe. As for FA standards - I don't think there's an particularly notable cover version of this song, nor if there did exist one. (Side note: There are some song FAs for which there are particularly notable versions. For example, the 1990 London Symphony cover of Gorecki's 3rd symphony. This fact should be stated in the article, but I'm not sure how much the article should dwell on this fact. Regardless, that's a moot point here, because IMO there is no particularly notable cover of Amazing Grace.) Raul654 ( talk) 05:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
[QUOTE]Yes. I will create one clip for one USAF inclusion, two for two and three for three[/QUOTE] I've been editing for some time now and this is about the most mean-spirited thing I've ever read on a talk page. I would tell this editor to go to hell. I would refuse to work with this editor. No clip is better than one added with this sort of spirit, especially for this article. Gandydancer ( talk) 23:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
This has gone on long enough, if neither of you can come to a reasonable compromise on the matter I believe an RfC should be initiated, whether on unbecoming user conduct or on the sounds themselves. Featured Media should always be used in place over other readily available free media as they have been deemed by the community to have a high level of artistic standard and quality which is paramount to other available media, I'm sure WP:FA says something about use of Featured Media, in fact I'm certain the FAC say something about the use of Featured Media to accompany the article as supplementary material. SandyGeorgia may assert her position as an FA delegate, but I am an FS delegate, we're locked in this stalemate and the only way we can reach an agreement it seems is through one of the early stages of dispute resolution: an RfC. This debate has really shown the worst in some of you (being a collective pronoun here), the attitude displayed has so far been nothing short of unsavoury and childish. And what's more is the reticence of the FA Director(s), I have yet to see Raul (or Dabomb) to opine on the matter and serve as mediators so to speak. As I said, if the matter cannot be resolved in a mature fashion, I believe it is necessary to pursue WP:DR processes. — James ( Talk • Contribs) • 4:25pm • 06:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
In March 2008, mention of the song as something that was played for shortened funeral services on the trail of tears was marked as needing improved references [1]. That tag was removed eventually, but then mention of the trail was removed in a spam, and as far as I can see never reintroduced [2] (the spam also removed lyrics in Cherokee, which I never cared for). I'm a bit confused if there is a problem with the mention, as it is a big deal to many people, so I'm adding it back in. Let me know if I should add more citations. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
I noticed the article says Amazing Grace was translated in "Cherokee." This really should read: "...into Tsalagi" (which is the name of our language). We don't call our language "Cherokee". It would be nice if Moni or someone else would change it. Thanks. Great article, as usual, Moni.-- TEHodson 05:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm referencing the edits Hyacinth ( talk · contribs) made to the article in good faith. I'm changing some of them to adhere to the rules of Featured Articles (see also Featured Article criteria).
While there is room for the article to be improved, and I certainly appreciate anyone willing to access the sources to work on improving the article, these changes for now don't achieve that goal. But as I said, I'm eager to discuss improvements with Hyacinth or anyone else willing to do the work to make it a better article. As long as, you know, the changes meet the highest expectations for articles on Wikipedia. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
According to:
The name of "Amazing Grace" in Hmong is "Yexus Hlub Kuv" WhisperToMe ( talk) 00:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
"He continued to be a slave trader for several years after his experience, but with more compassion." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fantrl ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 29 June 2005 (UTC)
How can you trade slaves "with more compassion"?
I would say by treating them well, taking time to ensure their well-being, and seeing to it that they leave his care only by going to a good owner who will treat them well. As I understand the slave trade, most of the slaves picked up by these ships were already slaves, and such a fate would be pretty much the best thing that could happen to them at that point. Is it still wrong? Yes. But maybe, perversely, better for the individual slave, even if it perpetuated the institution as a whole. -- Paxsboy 04:52, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no evidence this experience had any influence on his slave trading or his converson to Christianity. The sudden alteration in his attitudes because of a storm at sea is, I believe, a myth. Snopes and other less easily influenced sources say this. Stunz ( talk) 16:02, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
Most Christians thoughout history have seen no problem with combining slavery and a belief in Christ. And remember that the most devout Moslems in Arabia kept slaves until the 1960's - or still have slaves, if some reports are to be believed. JohnC ( talk) 10:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
There is nothing odd about the captain of a slaves transport being a Christian - most were. Half of the USA kept slaves until 1865 - but 99% of the people, Black and White, professed to be Christians. All of the slaves transported across the Atlantic were already slaves when loaded in Africa. Most were enslaved by their own chiefs, or by Arabs. They probably would have had a better life as slaves in the New World than if they had stayed in the old - free or a slaves.
124.197.15.138 (
talk) 08:59, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Some times it is necessary to include a trivia heading. Not many people know this but Swing Low Sweet Chariot can be sung underneath Amazing Grace. Try it out. Kosmo9288 03:03, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Likewise, the song can be sung to tune of the theme song for Gilligan's Island. Someone (who I doubt has actually tried it) has claimed this needs fact checking. How do you tell people to fact check something they can do for themselves? (By actually trying to sing it to that tune?) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.249.162.120 ( talk) 23:30, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
"A great irony of the song's history and its role in the civil rights era is that Newton reached his greatest success in the slave trade after writing the song and being born again (although this is not to imply a connection between his profession and his faith)."
This statement does not match up with other information available on Wikipedia.org.
The article on John Newton only mentions his slave trade career in passing. The majority of the article focuses on his time as an Anglican priest so to suggest that reached his "greatest success" in any profession other than the one for which he is most well known, is misleading.
Also there is no indication that he continued his slave trade while serving as a priest and it was during his time as a priest that he penned Amazing Grace. He claimed to have converted to Christianity in 1748 and he continued as a slave trader for some time following. He entered the priesthood in 1764 and did not meet the co-author of the hymn until 1767. According to this page, the hymn was written in sometime in 1772 and it was first published as a collection of hymns in 1779.
This statement needs to be deleted.
Jackieplondon 19:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
you forgot to mention the fact that the song was also recorded by the successful japanese j-pop singer Mika Nakashima in two different versions, one of them used in her album "BEST", and the other one in her album "TRUE", you did write it in articles referring to the singer, but you did not mention her here(both of the versions can be watched on youtube). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forevergitsandff ( talk • contribs) 22:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The song was also sung in honor of Jerry Garcia by the Bob Weir's Ratdog on December 8, 1995 following his death on August 9, 1995.
christian childrens fund had a version done of amazing grace sung by a male accapella,can anybody tell me who the artist is.thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Latinsc2 ( talk • contribs) 00:50, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Who is the CCM Community? Can someone expand that abbreviation and wikilink it? SchmuckyTheCat
Does this movie actually have anything to do with the song? If not, why is it even mentioned? ( ApJ ( talk) 13:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC))
For some reason I don't see, this article is in Category:Song_articles_missing_an_audio_sample, and it has audio samples, now, so maybe the code for taking it out of that category is broken. I don't see an explicit inclusion of this article in that category. BrewJay ( talk) 08:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Many believe that Newton heard the music from the slaves he transported who usually only knew 5 notes or what we call the "Black Notes" or what Europeans call Pentatonic. If you check most Slave Spirituals you'll find the same 5 black notes on almost all Negro Spirituals. There are many that actually believe the "Slave Scale" is the foundation of Newton's Amazing Grace.
A link that helps : http://pjcockrell.wordpress.com/2007/11/22/amazing-grace-just-the-black-notes/
Happy Understanding -- Taylor —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.68.144 ( talk • contribs) 23:48, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
There is enormous uncertainty about the modern tune- it could well have been written by Newton, albeit unlikely. What is most unlikely is that it was derived from negro songs. Typical African songs of the period would not have been recognisable as spirituals. Negro spirituals arose in America, derived more from English hymns than African music.
124.197.15.138 (
talk) 09:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The Native American Group Walela has recorded the song and the lyrics are available on their website, where it says that the Cherokee lyrics are public domain.
See the Walela Website for the listing of their recordings and see here the Cherokee Lyrics
What speaks against quoting the lyrics in the wiki article if they are public domain anyways? The author died in 1859.
Kangaroo 17:42, 28 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChrisKangaroo ( talk • contribs)
I have nothing against pictures of bagpipers, but a picture of a bagpiper--even if we are told he's playing Amazing Grace--does not add to the article. It's not a picture of Amazing Grace, it doesn't actually say anything about Amazing Grace. If there were some way of seeing, from the picture, that it's a picture of Amazing Grace, that would be fine. But a picture of a bagpiper playing Scotland the Brave would look identical: indeed, we have only a flickr caption to tell what it claims to be. Tb ( talk) 20:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't use the undo tool (or at least, don't leave the automatic summary in) if you are reverting a good faith edit. What exactly where the "errors" contained in my edit and why did you revert it. I can't see how it introduced errors when I didn't actually change the text. Lists shouldn't be embedded in articles like this when prose would suffice or actually be an improvement. Regards. Woody ( talk) 22:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
~im doing an essay on the song amazing grace and would like anyones input on what they get out of the song -what it means to them. thank you 24.32.64.183 ( talk)sylvia 24.32.64.183 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC).
""New Britain" first appears in a shape note hymnal from 1829 called Columbian Harmony."
Most people seem to agree the Coumbian Harmony was published in 1825. Flapdragon ( talk) 11:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
There is more than one tunebook entitled Columbian Harmony. The one by William Moore of Wilson Co., Tennessee was published in 1825. The one by Benjamin Shaw and Charles Spilman of Kentucky was published in 1829. This is the one that contained not one but two versions of the tune later printed as New Britain. Finn Froding ( talk) 22:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
This little tidbit appears in the article:
the tune "New Britain" of which the composer is unknown and which is in William Walker's shape-note tunebook Southern Harmony, 1835.[3] Shape Note version from 1835.
The melody later known as "New Britain" first appears in Columbian Harmony (1829),
So, which is it? Did the tune first appear in 1835 or 1829? Or is the first sentence just horribly constructed, and meant to indicate that the tune was first put to these lyrics in 1835? What's going on, man? 68.102.237.253 ( talk) 06:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)
(Copied from Moni3's talk page):
Moni3, there's a lot of good information in your rewritten article on Amazing Grace, but in my opinion it's too long and too broad. While it's certainly legitimate to claim that the poem was a response to a conversion experience, the same could be said about most of Newton's hymns. There's really not much to the "urban legend" that connects this song specifically with Newton's earlier participation in the slave trade, or with his much later opposition to it, yet your revision introduces the author precisely in these terms. The previous version of the article was much more circumspect in this regard. Much of the biographical coverage in the article duplicates that in the article on Newton, where it really belongs. And, while it is certainly appropriate to discuss the music for this popular hymn, is seems like a can of worms to refer to the tune as a "traditional melody" in the first paragraph, when its possible origins are discussed more fully later. There appear to be factual errors in the section on "Harmony Grove," and I have yet to see a single "scholar" cite even the slightest evidence that the melody is of Scots origin--it's merely feelgood speculation, not worth repeating in WP. I appreciate your edit and your careful citations, and I intend to make further edits in the coming weeks, but it seems a little disingenuous for you to thoroughly revise and expand an article and then immediately nominate it yourself for "good article" status. Finn Froding (talk) 21:33, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Thank you for your responses. I will certainly take these into account, and will continue minor edits with a view toward addressing some of the questions, including Harmony Grove and the tune's relation to tradition. You write, quite reasonably, "The article is so far a summary of what has been written about "Amazing Grace" from multiple reliable sources." The thing is that much of what is written is not really about the poem, but about Newton's life, with a huge dose of conjecture trying to connect this one poem, uniquely, with these specific events. I have not found any evidence that Newton, or any of his contemporaries, made such a connection that isn't true of many of his other 280-some poems such as "Afflictions though they seem severe," or "Nay, I cannot let thee go." "'Tis passed--the dreadful stormy night," "When the poor pris’ner through a grate," etc. But because the song is a pop-culture fetish, it seems to invite conjecture, because anything that popular must have a good story, eh? Yes, it is a spiritual song about conversion, and the author was indeed a convert. But I suggest that it would be useful to incorporate much of the biographical detail on Newton into the Newton article and merely summarize the most verifiably relevant biography in the Amazing grace article.
I am familiar with the musical literature, and have Turner's book, which has turned up much useful information. He cites Harmony Grove, correctly, as the 1831 title of the now-familiar tune as printed in Virginia Harmony (1831). His only substantial citation on Scots origins of the tune is a comment by Peter van der Merwe, an author known for speculative flights. Richard Taruskin, while praising one of his recent works, characterizes the author as follows (Music and Letters 81 (2007): 134-9): "Its author, a South African librarian, is a self-taught, amateur musicologist with an eccentric vocabulary and a propensity for overstatement that he is loath to restrain. Its thesis is uncontroversial but the author is naive enough to believe that he is setting the world on its ear with it. Its method is cheerfully ‘verificationist’ or confirmation-biased, and it uses its debased standards of proof to advance historiographical absurdities." If this is the only source making such a claim, it's certainly suspect. There are strong reasons to suppose that the tune circulated in oral tradition before its 1829 publication--the publication history itself suggests this, with many variants appearing in the southern U.S. within a few years. To suggest an ultimate origin in the British Isles however, and even to narrow down the specific part of that archipelago, is treading on thin ice. Enough for now, I'll return to the article soon, but carefully and verifiably. Cheers. Finn Froding ( talk) 18:35, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
Too much about Newton. It should be severely chopped. The paragraphs for the whole piece are too long anyway, and so is the lead. Yours, GeorgeLouis ( talk) 19:35, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
One idea would be to have a separate but linked article about Newton's life, rather than chopping information. That would make the article more concise about the hymn, while the historical information about the great man's life would be easily referenced by those interested, and probably easier to find by those searching for historical information about the author. 123.243.198.14 ( talk) 11:19, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
There appears to be two versions of the sixth verse. One that starts "When we've been there ten thousand years.." and another that starts "the earth will soon dissolve like snow..." Which one is right? Tallarchangel ( talk) 03:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
What exactly is an "African American spiritual"? Slaves were not US citizens, so this seems to be an anachronistic term on some level. Moreover, the term "negro spiritual" is used on the Wikipedia page that it links to. Copious examples of the use of negro spiritual are available. "African American spiritual" sounds like a neologism. Would like to change. HedgeFundBob ( talk) 09:45, 17 June 2010 (UTC)
I have three questions regarding the reversion of my recent edits by User:Moni3:
Thank you, -- BlueMoonlet ( t/ c) 14:42, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Retracking the discussion. BlueMoonlet added this paragraph: Over the years, "Amazing Grace" has been loved and valued by many people who do not share Newton's Calvinistic view of redemption and divine grace. Steve Turner explains this phenomenon as an example of Newton's subtlety, saying that the song's "theological distinctives were buried in its sinews rather than tattooed on its skin." For example, "when Newton referred to himself as a 'wretch' it was with total depravity in mind, but an opponent of the doctrine... could take it to mean a feeling of despondency. Likewise, 'I once was lost but now am found' was meant by Newton to emphasize his inability to save himself and thus his utter dependence on God, but it could be taken to mean 'I once felt confused and unsure of my direction in life but now I feel as though I am on the right path'."
I think this paragraph can be incorporated into the first in the section, which discusses the differing meanings of Newton's wretchedness. As it appears, the "wretch" discussion is addressed in the first and then third paragraphs, broken by the second. This is incongruous and ungraceful. See what I did there? Ha. Anyway...I have concerns about points being made succinctly and using as few words as possible while still being written on a professional level. The quotes by Turner are, in my opinion, too extensive and should be paraphrased. If Turner's own words are making the point for us, it should be quoted in full, and ideally, a comment that could never be made by Wikipedia: one that espouses a clear emotional or value opinion, which we are precluded from making by the NPOV policy.
I've attempted to join the two paragraphs:
In recent years, the words of the hymn have been changed in some religious publications to downplay a sense of imposed self-loathing by its singers. The second line, "That saved a wretch like me!" has been rewritten as "That saved and strengthened me", "save a soul like me", or "that saved and set me free". Kathleen Norris in her book Amazing Grace: A Vocabulary of Faith characterizes this transformation of the original words as "wretched English" making the line that replaces the original "laughably bland". Part of the reason for this change has been the altered interpretations of what wretchedness and grace means. Newton's Calvinistic view of redemption and divine grace formed his perspective that he considered himself as a sinner so vile that he was unable to change his life or be redeemed without God's help. Yet his lyrical subtlety, in Steve Turner's opinion, leaves the hymn's meaning open to a variety of Christian and non-Christian interpretations. "Wretch" also represents a period in Newton's life when he saw himself outcast and miserable, as he was when he was enslaved in Sierra Leone; his own arrogance was matched by how far he had fallen in his life.
Now I'm rather stuck in incorporating the following parts of what I wrote and what you did:
When Newton allowed his conversion to take place, it was a profound supernatural transformation. And
For example, "when Newton referred to himself as a 'wretch' it was with total depravity in mind, but an opponent of the doctrine... could take it to mean a feeling of despondency. Likewise, 'I once was lost but now am found' was meant by Newton to emphasize his inability to save himself and thus his utter dependence on God, but it could be taken to mean 'I once felt confused and unsure of my direction in life but now I feel as though I am on the right path'
BlueMoonlet, you seem to have a special interest (and this is not an accusation, just an observation) in Newton's Calvinist theological roots. When I constructed the article, I do not recall coming across points that were made in multiple sources that discussed Calvinism. Certainly it is in Turner, but usually if I'm hit over the head with a point by multiple sources then I include it in the article. I also have no background in theology or any particular religious influence, so I wrote only what I thought was covered by sources. After writing multiple featured articles on Wikipedia, I understand that when I form the majority of the article myself I inevitably color the material using my own values. I just hope I do it as fairly as possible most of the time. If I have no particular religious views, then none strike me as significant when they are mentioned in the sources.
So I'm not quite understanding your point: are you saying it's inaccurate that "Newton allowed his conversion to take place" if Newton was a strict Calvinist? The Bruner and Ware source I have makes it seem as if Newton had to reach his lowest point, the bottom of the barrel so to speak, in order to be able to accept God's salvation. In a less proselytizing way to write that, it came out as "allowed his conversion to take place". If you have specific objections to the way that's written, can you provide alternate wording? -- Moni3 ( talk) 16:23, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
Regarding "Question 2" - I had a look at Turner and could not find a reference supporting the modern "communal understanding of redemption". Is this just a bit of personal essay, or did I overlook the reference? 69.1.23.134 ( talk) 02:56, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
Hi - Just thought it was worth pointing out that it is not only Calvinists that believe in Total Depravity, or that grace must come from outwith ourselves. This is also, for example, the belief of Arminians. And, as Blue Moonlet says, Calvinism is certainly not dying out - I would say that it is increasing amonst evangelicals. 217.44.101.12 ( talk) 19:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi, can you please add citation for "It has been played following American national disasters such as such as the Space Shuttle Challenger disaster, the Oklahoma City bombing, and the September 11 attacks". I can understand, that User Moni3 removed my request as obvious for Americans, but speaking as somebody from the other side of world without daily detailed media coverage of the events in question, I'd like to have some references for that. Regards 87.162.65.103 ( talk) 08:15, 25 November 2010 (UTC)
I've got what I think is a rather useful, informative, non-commercial pages that includes sheet music for the New Britain melody. I didn't see sheet music available or referenced on any other part of this page, so I added a link. It was quickly removed, and I'm not sure why. OK, so I'm rather new to adding information on Wikipedia, so I'm trying to figure out the best way to offer what I think is useful information. ClintGoss ( talk) 16:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)
So these were added to the bottom of the lead. They're free, so that's a plus. However, I'm not sure how relevant they are to the points of what sources have expressed and what has been summarized in the article.
I've hidden them. Anyone have any thoughts? -- Moni3 ( talk) 21:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
(I came from WP:FSC after I suspended the nomination) You mention the hymn tune used in Amazing Grace#"New Britain" tune. The brass version could add something there but adding it would mess up the block quote. -- Guerillero | My Talk | Review Me 01:18, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
I honestly don't see a problem with Tony's additions on this and actual think even if not the best quality they most certainly have encyclopedic use. They don't have any copyright issues right?♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:15, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
TTT, it appears to me that trying to add non-notable versions of a song to the lead of a Featured article (three of them no less), while stating that you only learned to upload sound files last week, may be an attempt by you to, as you have stated, "learn how to do a FS to keep up my main page been there done that thing"; please experiment elsewhere. Regarding Ava Maria, please see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Do you have sources discussing the notability of the songs you want to add here? If not, you might have better luck experimenting on a GA. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 22:17, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Re Blofeld, Risker's message not get through to you?
USAF Band version still not notable. More words on the talk page (Raul's too) doesn't change that.
Read article, Check sources=Quality work and understanding. Simplicity. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
Since I was asked to give my two cents on the issue - I think Tony's song contributions are very good and definitely should be included this article. Finding free music for these articles is hard, and finding good quality music is harder still. The version I uploaded isn't great - it's not a bad illustration of the 'revivalist' style, but there's much better representations of the the song. In my opinion, there's nothing wrong with having multiple versions of the song in this article. Personally, I think the "standard" or preferred version should played on a bagpipe. As for FA standards - I don't think there's an particularly notable cover version of this song, nor if there did exist one. (Side note: There are some song FAs for which there are particularly notable versions. For example, the 1990 London Symphony cover of Gorecki's 3rd symphony. This fact should be stated in the article, but I'm not sure how much the article should dwell on this fact. Regardless, that's a moot point here, because IMO there is no particularly notable cover of Amazing Grace.) Raul654 ( talk) 05:13, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
[QUOTE]Yes. I will create one clip for one USAF inclusion, two for two and three for three[/QUOTE] I've been editing for some time now and this is about the most mean-spirited thing I've ever read on a talk page. I would tell this editor to go to hell. I would refuse to work with this editor. No clip is better than one added with this sort of spirit, especially for this article. Gandydancer ( talk) 23:14, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
This has gone on long enough, if neither of you can come to a reasonable compromise on the matter I believe an RfC should be initiated, whether on unbecoming user conduct or on the sounds themselves. Featured Media should always be used in place over other readily available free media as they have been deemed by the community to have a high level of artistic standard and quality which is paramount to other available media, I'm sure WP:FA says something about use of Featured Media, in fact I'm certain the FAC say something about the use of Featured Media to accompany the article as supplementary material. SandyGeorgia may assert her position as an FA delegate, but I am an FS delegate, we're locked in this stalemate and the only way we can reach an agreement it seems is through one of the early stages of dispute resolution: an RfC. This debate has really shown the worst in some of you (being a collective pronoun here), the attitude displayed has so far been nothing short of unsavoury and childish. And what's more is the reticence of the FA Director(s), I have yet to see Raul (or Dabomb) to opine on the matter and serve as mediators so to speak. As I said, if the matter cannot be resolved in a mature fashion, I believe it is necessary to pursue WP:DR processes. — James ( Talk • Contribs) • 4:25pm • 06:25, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
In March 2008, mention of the song as something that was played for shortened funeral services on the trail of tears was marked as needing improved references [1]. That tag was removed eventually, but then mention of the trail was removed in a spam, and as far as I can see never reintroduced [2] (the spam also removed lyrics in Cherokee, which I never cared for). I'm a bit confused if there is a problem with the mention, as it is a big deal to many people, so I'm adding it back in. Let me know if I should add more citations. Smmurphy( Talk) 16:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)
I noticed the article says Amazing Grace was translated in "Cherokee." This really should read: "...into Tsalagi" (which is the name of our language). We don't call our language "Cherokee". It would be nice if Moni or someone else would change it. Thanks. Great article, as usual, Moni.-- TEHodson 05:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm referencing the edits Hyacinth ( talk · contribs) made to the article in good faith. I'm changing some of them to adhere to the rules of Featured Articles (see also Featured Article criteria).
While there is room for the article to be improved, and I certainly appreciate anyone willing to access the sources to work on improving the article, these changes for now don't achieve that goal. But as I said, I'm eager to discuss improvements with Hyacinth or anyone else willing to do the work to make it a better article. As long as, you know, the changes meet the highest expectations for articles on Wikipedia. -- Moni3 ( talk) 22:27, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
According to:
The name of "Amazing Grace" in Hmong is "Yexus Hlub Kuv" WhisperToMe ( talk) 00:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |