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Completion of Altai Railway

On 20 October 1915 temporary traffic was opened on the following sections of the Altai Railway: Passenger and freight traffic from Altaiskaja to Barnaoul, a distance of 13.6 versts (14.5 km), and passenger traffic from Barnaoul to Semipalatinsk a distance of 401,1 versts (428 km). Thus, with the sections previously opened, temporary passenger and freight traffic has been opened on the whole of this new railway system, a distance of nearly 800 versts, including the main line from Novo-Nikolaijevsk to Semipalatinsk 615.4 versts (656.5 km), and the branch line from Altaiskaja near Barnaoul to Biisk 135.7 versts (144.8 km).

This new railway has ordered from Kolomna Works (near Moscow) 70 new powerful (steam) locomotives in addition to few shunting locomotives for larger stations. Actually only locomotives 101-165 were delivered due war time problems with Kolomna Works output in their construction due lack of steel for locomotive boilers and other materials.

This railway opens up the vast and rich Altai region of Siberia, hitherto entirely cut off from railway communication. Starting from the town of Novo-Nikolaijevsk, on the Siberian main line, the new line runs to Barnaoul (population in 1913: 33.000), the chief town of the Altai region, with a branch line therefore to Biisk, a seat of the Russo-Mongolian caravan trade, and continues from Barnaul to Semipalatinsk (population in 1913: 32.000), the capital of the steppe territory of that name, communication between which and the main Siberian line has hitherto been maintained by the River Irtish to Omsk, a distance of 1000 versts. The Semipalatinsk territory is noted for its grain. Cattle-rearing is the chief occupation of the nomand Kirgiz forming the main part of the population.

The new Altai Railway will revolutionize the trade and traffic of the whole Altai region, hithero served in summer only by the vast Obi, which, rising in Mongolia flows through Biisk and Barnaoul to Novo-Nikolaijevsk, continuing thence to the Arctic Ocean. Thus, from Biisk and Barnaoul and Novo-Nikolaijevsk, considerable quantities of butter found their way to the main line "en route" to the West-European (mainly British) markets.

Noted for its mineral wealth, and the rich cereals and agricultural rescources generally, for the cultivation of which agricultural machinery is largely imported by International Harvester Company from United States, the whole region only awaited the more rapid and regular means of communication now supplied for its fuller development.

The mineral wealth of the Altai in modern means first become known in 1723, when the specialists followed the old local knowledge of ancient mines, being dispatched by the nobleman Akinfy Demidoff, son of the well known Toula blacksmith Nikita Akinfijev Demidoff, discovered copper veins near Keolyzan Lake. A series of other discoveries followed, and in a short space of time smelting in the Altai of copper, lead, silver, and gold attained dimensions unexampled in those days. The entire eighteenth century was a period of the prosperity for the Altai. Thus, for example, the mining business in the Altai (which in 1747 passed under control of the Cabinet of his Imperial Majesty) at the end of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth century yielded annually more than three million (gold) roubles profit.

The exhaustion of the forests, the change inthe chemical composition of the seams, in proportion to the deepening of the mines, which the metallurgy of those days could not cope, the absence of means of communication, and, finally, the fall of the price of silver, which was one of the principal products of the Altai smelters - all these factors together brought the mining business of the Altai almost to a full stop in the second half if the nineteenth century. This decline was not prevented by the circumstance that in the Altai there was discovered an exceedingly rich coal basin, The Kouznetzki, embracing an area of about 15.000 square kilometres. The absence of convenient and cheap means of communication constituted an obstalce very difficult to surmount for any kind of industrial activity in the Altai. A curious and injurious situation arose: such universally celebratde veins of lead, zink, copper, and other metals as the Zyrian, Ridder, Zmieinogor etc, exist in vain, and Russia, who required these metals, obtained them from abroad, chiefly from her neighbour Germany.

With the construction of the Altai Railway a new era will dawn for the Altai mining industry. The yield of coal will swiftly in the Kouznetz basin, where the necessary preparatory work is already proceeding, with the object not only of furnishing with fuel local industry, but also of delivering coke to the Ural districs, which is badly in need of this material.

However, the continuation of the Altai Railway from Semipalatinsk to Viernij in the district of Seven Rivers in Central Asia, and eventually connect Semipalatinsk to Tashkent Railway was left to be built by the French financed, but Russian mangeged, private railway consortium.

JN


Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Mkativerata ( talk) 20:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC) reply

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Altai Krai/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article could benefit from additional data on all currently existing sections (which are stub sections) and new data within the following new sections:

• 1 Within the Geography section o 1.1 Time zone (place the current time zone entry here) o 1.2 Rivers o 1.3 Mountains o 1.4 Natural resources o 1.5 Climate • 2 Demographics • 3 Military Defense • 4 Politics • 5 Economy • 5.1 Transportation • 6 Religion • 7 Education • 8 Miscellaneous • 9 References

robertjohnsonrj 03:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC) reply

Last edited at 03:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 07:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Lead Edit - Region's Income & Other Statements

To further expand on my comments in the edit summaries (since those are limited in length), I would like to re-iterate my issues with the edits to the lead section.

1- The sources cited do not mention any other suspicious deaths of the heads of this region, outside of Mikhail Yevdokimov.
2- The sources cited do not mention or refer to the region as the poorest, they only state it has been found to have the lowest wages amongst any other Russian subjects, in a particular year. The most recent official wage data show that this is not the case.
3- The information cited is already present in the article, in the appropriate sections - Politics and Economy.
4- No other articles for Russian Federation subjects (as per consensus) contain this type of information in the lead of the article.-- Therexbanner ( talk) 22:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Kazakh name

I have removed the Kazakh name because

  1. Kazakhs are less than 5% of the entire Oblast
  2. No evidence of significant Kazakh presence in the past (and even then that would still be WP:UNDUE for the lede).
  3. "Altaı ólkesi" is never used by English language sources and is basically made up by Resnjari by crudely translating the Russian "krai" into Kazakh, a form of OR.

Khirurg ( talk) 16:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply

No one used Omby for this article. Anyway, the main Turkic population of the area were the Altai, whom take their name from the mountain range from which is region is name and the southern republic where they a sizable part of the population. The Altai mainly left during the interwar period due to Soviet era collectivisation. Kazakhs inhabit the periphery of the region. I tried to find the Altai name, but little is written in the language so its hard. I do think its important to cater for names in indigenous Turkic languages of the region, even if their populations are very small due to t he Tsarist and Soviet era. Resnjari ( talk) 17:11, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply
@ Khirurg and Resnjari: my two cents on this and other disputes going on simultaneously -- imo the native (Turkic, the "more native" Yeniseian too -- Altai has these toponyms as well) names should be mentioned (lede or not depends on relevant policies in the topic area but mentioned somewhere noticeable) when they differ from the Russian ones. Altai Krai the administrative unit is a Russian creation even though "Altai" is not from the Russian language originally, so its name is going to be the same in all languages -- not necessarily useful. Other cases like Samar/Samara or more emphatically Mozdok aka Mazdagu (Circassian) and Sochi (Şʼaça ~ Shacha) might be better arguments. Idk as much about Omsk/Omby but it might be the latter case, idk-- no comment on it being in the lede as idk the exact policies in the Siberian topic area that I haven't edited as much recently but it could belong somewhere else on the page.-- Calthinus ( talk) 19:21, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
Calthinus, I tried looking for the Turkic Altai language name for the region on the internet, but to no avail. Have you ever come across Altai toponymy for the area? Definitely the Turkic Altai language name of the area deserves to be in the article, as they were a population group of Altai Krai before communist rule changed all that. Resnjari ( talk) 19:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
Resnjari No I haven't unfortunately :/. This paper discussing the archaeology of the region and other aspects touching on Soviet and post-Soviet discourse of the past of the area, while perhaps not immediately relevant, may be a window to more good sources in the topic area however. [ [1]] Also sources are easier to find on the history of neighboring regions like Khakassia and Tuva, but still haven't found their page starter among English wiki editors it seems. If you want to help expand this area of English wiki coverage -- Russian makes many source accessible -- it will be a great contribution, time permitting of course. Cheers! -- Calthinus ( talk) 19:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
The Kazakh name is out of the question. There is no significant Kazakh presence in the area, and never was. I do think its important to cater for names in indigenous Turkic languages of the region, even if their populations are very small due to t he Tsarist and Soviet era. not only reeks of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (the "wrongs" of the Soviet and Tsarist eras, namely Slavic settlement, must be "righted" by...giving undue weight to names that were sometimes never used), it is absurd. Even more absurd would be adding names in related languages. What next, adding a whole bunch of Indo-European names all over the place because they are "related" (Volga German? Tocharian, anyone?) And even more absurd would be to do so for official subdivisions created after the previous inhabitants vacated the area. My general opinion regarding national subdivisions is to only include official usage, as these are official subdivisions, often created recently and not long-lived entities like cities. Otherwise I have no problem adding Επαρχία Αργυροκάστρου to this place [2] and on it will go. Khirurg ( talk) 05:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
"reeks of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS". Not surprised Khirurg. Anyway Wikipedia allows for placenames of ethnic groups that were once a significant population in the area, as per its guidelines ( WP:NCGN). In this instance, the Turkic Altai ethnic group and its name would more then suffice as they were still in the region when Altai Krai was created in the 1920s and 1930s before Soviet collectivisation and subsequent difficult relations with the state made them leave. However as sources are very limited on Altai language forms on that aspect one can't add anything sadly. I tried looking for them, but to no avail. On Kazakhs, they have formed a part of the population and are found along the border areas. Whether that is enough for a name of the region in their language to be included in the article is what we are discussing. Sure they might not be a large population, but they are there. It appears sadly not enough to make the threshold for inclusion of their name for the administrative region. That said indigenous Turkic and other Siberian language names have their place on articles where relevant of course, even if an editor may not personally like them. Since you mentioned the Balkans i have state that i am in possession of RS sources that can place historic Ottoman Turkish names for all settlements in the region (right down to the village level) from the Danube to the Aegean (especially for those southern Balkan regions which also have Slavonic names - i have RS for those too). My suggestion to all is to stick to the topic of Altai Krai, as we are on its talkpage. Thanks. Resnjari ( talk) 23:37, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
I don't mean to tell either of you what to do, but the fact is that I would rather both of you do your normal editing -- which I have a net positive opinion of, for both -- and not get holed up debating on poor bystander Siberian talk pages actually about Sarandaë and Prεmε(d)ι in the Balkans, and would think both of you would prefer to do your normal, widely appreciated, behavior as well. "Yolo" as they say. -- Calthinus ( talk) 12:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Altai_Krai&oldid=1221284573"
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Completion of Altai Railway

On 20 October 1915 temporary traffic was opened on the following sections of the Altai Railway: Passenger and freight traffic from Altaiskaja to Barnaoul, a distance of 13.6 versts (14.5 km), and passenger traffic from Barnaoul to Semipalatinsk a distance of 401,1 versts (428 km). Thus, with the sections previously opened, temporary passenger and freight traffic has been opened on the whole of this new railway system, a distance of nearly 800 versts, including the main line from Novo-Nikolaijevsk to Semipalatinsk 615.4 versts (656.5 km), and the branch line from Altaiskaja near Barnaoul to Biisk 135.7 versts (144.8 km).

This new railway has ordered from Kolomna Works (near Moscow) 70 new powerful (steam) locomotives in addition to few shunting locomotives for larger stations. Actually only locomotives 101-165 were delivered due war time problems with Kolomna Works output in their construction due lack of steel for locomotive boilers and other materials.

This railway opens up the vast and rich Altai region of Siberia, hitherto entirely cut off from railway communication. Starting from the town of Novo-Nikolaijevsk, on the Siberian main line, the new line runs to Barnaoul (population in 1913: 33.000), the chief town of the Altai region, with a branch line therefore to Biisk, a seat of the Russo-Mongolian caravan trade, and continues from Barnaul to Semipalatinsk (population in 1913: 32.000), the capital of the steppe territory of that name, communication between which and the main Siberian line has hitherto been maintained by the River Irtish to Omsk, a distance of 1000 versts. The Semipalatinsk territory is noted for its grain. Cattle-rearing is the chief occupation of the nomand Kirgiz forming the main part of the population.

The new Altai Railway will revolutionize the trade and traffic of the whole Altai region, hithero served in summer only by the vast Obi, which, rising in Mongolia flows through Biisk and Barnaoul to Novo-Nikolaijevsk, continuing thence to the Arctic Ocean. Thus, from Biisk and Barnaoul and Novo-Nikolaijevsk, considerable quantities of butter found their way to the main line "en route" to the West-European (mainly British) markets.

Noted for its mineral wealth, and the rich cereals and agricultural rescources generally, for the cultivation of which agricultural machinery is largely imported by International Harvester Company from United States, the whole region only awaited the more rapid and regular means of communication now supplied for its fuller development.

The mineral wealth of the Altai in modern means first become known in 1723, when the specialists followed the old local knowledge of ancient mines, being dispatched by the nobleman Akinfy Demidoff, son of the well known Toula blacksmith Nikita Akinfijev Demidoff, discovered copper veins near Keolyzan Lake. A series of other discoveries followed, and in a short space of time smelting in the Altai of copper, lead, silver, and gold attained dimensions unexampled in those days. The entire eighteenth century was a period of the prosperity for the Altai. Thus, for example, the mining business in the Altai (which in 1747 passed under control of the Cabinet of his Imperial Majesty) at the end of the eighteenth and the beginning of the nineteenth century yielded annually more than three million (gold) roubles profit.

The exhaustion of the forests, the change inthe chemical composition of the seams, in proportion to the deepening of the mines, which the metallurgy of those days could not cope, the absence of means of communication, and, finally, the fall of the price of silver, which was one of the principal products of the Altai smelters - all these factors together brought the mining business of the Altai almost to a full stop in the second half if the nineteenth century. This decline was not prevented by the circumstance that in the Altai there was discovered an exceedingly rich coal basin, The Kouznetzki, embracing an area of about 15.000 square kilometres. The absence of convenient and cheap means of communication constituted an obstalce very difficult to surmount for any kind of industrial activity in the Altai. A curious and injurious situation arose: such universally celebratde veins of lead, zink, copper, and other metals as the Zyrian, Ridder, Zmieinogor etc, exist in vain, and Russia, who required these metals, obtained them from abroad, chiefly from her neighbour Germany.

With the construction of the Altai Railway a new era will dawn for the Altai mining industry. The yield of coal will swiftly in the Kouznetz basin, where the necessary preparatory work is already proceeding, with the object not only of furnishing with fuel local industry, but also of delivering coke to the Ural districs, which is badly in need of this material.

However, the continuation of the Altai Railway from Semipalatinsk to Viernij in the district of Seven Rivers in Central Asia, and eventually connect Semipalatinsk to Tashkent Railway was left to be built by the French financed, but Russian mangeged, private railway consortium.

JN


Possible copyright problem

This article has been revised as part of a large-scale clean-up project of multiple article copyright infringement. (See the investigation subpage) Earlier text must not be restored, unless it can be verified to be free of infringement. For legal reasons, Wikipedia cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or printed material; such additions must be deleted. Contributors may use sources as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. Mkativerata ( talk) 20:14, 2 September 2014 (UTC) reply

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Altai Krai. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{ cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{ nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

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Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 11:06, 28 February 2016 (UTC) reply

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Altai Krai/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

This article could benefit from additional data on all currently existing sections (which are stub sections) and new data within the following new sections:

• 1 Within the Geography section o 1.1 Time zone (place the current time zone entry here) o 1.2 Rivers o 1.3 Mountains o 1.4 Natural resources o 1.5 Climate • 2 Demographics • 3 Military Defense • 4 Politics • 5 Economy • 5.1 Transportation • 6 Religion • 7 Education • 8 Miscellaneous • 9 References

robertjohnsonrj 03:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC) reply

Last edited at 03:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 07:27, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Lead Edit - Region's Income & Other Statements

To further expand on my comments in the edit summaries (since those are limited in length), I would like to re-iterate my issues with the edits to the lead section.

1- The sources cited do not mention any other suspicious deaths of the heads of this region, outside of Mikhail Yevdokimov.
2- The sources cited do not mention or refer to the region as the poorest, they only state it has been found to have the lowest wages amongst any other Russian subjects, in a particular year. The most recent official wage data show that this is not the case.
3- The information cited is already present in the article, in the appropriate sections - Politics and Economy.
4- No other articles for Russian Federation subjects (as per consensus) contain this type of information in the lead of the article.-- Therexbanner ( talk) 22:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC) reply

Kazakh name

I have removed the Kazakh name because

  1. Kazakhs are less than 5% of the entire Oblast
  2. No evidence of significant Kazakh presence in the past (and even then that would still be WP:UNDUE for the lede).
  3. "Altaı ólkesi" is never used by English language sources and is basically made up by Resnjari by crudely translating the Russian "krai" into Kazakh, a form of OR.

Khirurg ( talk) 16:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply

No one used Omby for this article. Anyway, the main Turkic population of the area were the Altai, whom take their name from the mountain range from which is region is name and the southern republic where they a sizable part of the population. The Altai mainly left during the interwar period due to Soviet era collectivisation. Kazakhs inhabit the periphery of the region. I tried to find the Altai name, but little is written in the language so its hard. I do think its important to cater for names in indigenous Turkic languages of the region, even if their populations are very small due to t he Tsarist and Soviet era. Resnjari ( talk) 17:11, 22 April 2019 (UTC) reply
@ Khirurg and Resnjari: my two cents on this and other disputes going on simultaneously -- imo the native (Turkic, the "more native" Yeniseian too -- Altai has these toponyms as well) names should be mentioned (lede or not depends on relevant policies in the topic area but mentioned somewhere noticeable) when they differ from the Russian ones. Altai Krai the administrative unit is a Russian creation even though "Altai" is not from the Russian language originally, so its name is going to be the same in all languages -- not necessarily useful. Other cases like Samar/Samara or more emphatically Mozdok aka Mazdagu (Circassian) and Sochi (Şʼaça ~ Shacha) might be better arguments. Idk as much about Omsk/Omby but it might be the latter case, idk-- no comment on it being in the lede as idk the exact policies in the Siberian topic area that I haven't edited as much recently but it could belong somewhere else on the page.-- Calthinus ( talk) 19:21, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
Calthinus, I tried looking for the Turkic Altai language name for the region on the internet, but to no avail. Have you ever come across Altai toponymy for the area? Definitely the Turkic Altai language name of the area deserves to be in the article, as they were a population group of Altai Krai before communist rule changed all that. Resnjari ( talk) 19:28, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
Resnjari No I haven't unfortunately :/. This paper discussing the archaeology of the region and other aspects touching on Soviet and post-Soviet discourse of the past of the area, while perhaps not immediately relevant, may be a window to more good sources in the topic area however. [ [1]] Also sources are easier to find on the history of neighboring regions like Khakassia and Tuva, but still haven't found their page starter among English wiki editors it seems. If you want to help expand this area of English wiki coverage -- Russian makes many source accessible -- it will be a great contribution, time permitting of course. Cheers! -- Calthinus ( talk) 19:40, 23 April 2019 (UTC) reply
The Kazakh name is out of the question. There is no significant Kazakh presence in the area, and never was. I do think its important to cater for names in indigenous Turkic languages of the region, even if their populations are very small due to t he Tsarist and Soviet era. not only reeks of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS (the "wrongs" of the Soviet and Tsarist eras, namely Slavic settlement, must be "righted" by...giving undue weight to names that were sometimes never used), it is absurd. Even more absurd would be adding names in related languages. What next, adding a whole bunch of Indo-European names all over the place because they are "related" (Volga German? Tocharian, anyone?) And even more absurd would be to do so for official subdivisions created after the previous inhabitants vacated the area. My general opinion regarding national subdivisions is to only include official usage, as these are official subdivisions, often created recently and not long-lived entities like cities. Otherwise I have no problem adding Επαρχία Αργυροκάστρου to this place [2] and on it will go. Khirurg ( talk) 05:51, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
"reeks of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS". Not surprised Khirurg. Anyway Wikipedia allows for placenames of ethnic groups that were once a significant population in the area, as per its guidelines ( WP:NCGN). In this instance, the Turkic Altai ethnic group and its name would more then suffice as they were still in the region when Altai Krai was created in the 1920s and 1930s before Soviet collectivisation and subsequent difficult relations with the state made them leave. However as sources are very limited on Altai language forms on that aspect one can't add anything sadly. I tried looking for them, but to no avail. On Kazakhs, they have formed a part of the population and are found along the border areas. Whether that is enough for a name of the region in their language to be included in the article is what we are discussing. Sure they might not be a large population, but they are there. It appears sadly not enough to make the threshold for inclusion of their name for the administrative region. That said indigenous Turkic and other Siberian language names have their place on articles where relevant of course, even if an editor may not personally like them. Since you mentioned the Balkans i have state that i am in possession of RS sources that can place historic Ottoman Turkish names for all settlements in the region (right down to the village level) from the Danube to the Aegean (especially for those southern Balkan regions which also have Slavonic names - i have RS for those too). My suggestion to all is to stick to the topic of Altai Krai, as we are on its talkpage. Thanks. Resnjari ( talk) 23:37, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
I don't mean to tell either of you what to do, but the fact is that I would rather both of you do your normal editing -- which I have a net positive opinion of, for both -- and not get holed up debating on poor bystander Siberian talk pages actually about Sarandaë and Prεmε(d)ι in the Balkans, and would think both of you would prefer to do your normal, widely appreciated, behavior as well. "Yolo" as they say. -- Calthinus ( talk) 12:46, 1 May 2019 (UTC) reply
Retrieved from " https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Altai_Krai&oldid=1221284573"

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