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@ AlexTheWhovian: The way I was reading the info from the sources, is they are on board to direct and write, respectively, but didn't necessarily equate that to them do all. Though that could very well be true. Just wanted to discuss, because I don't know if we can make that assumption. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 17:12, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
- By the way it was listed here, I assuemed that it was true that they would be directing and writing all episodes. For example, "
it was announced that Barry Sonnenfeld and Mark Hudis had agreed to helm the series. Hudis would serve as showrunner, Sonnenfeld as director [...] with Daniel Handler writing the scripts
". By stating that Sonnenfeld was helming the series, that sounds synonymous with him leading the directing. And Handler states in the source that "right now Netflix is adapting A Series of Unfortunate Events for the screen and I am writing the script
", which also sounds as if he is writing the entire script, not just part of it It may be wrong; if you want to hide the episode table for now, I'd be fine with that. Alex|The|Whovian ? 21:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)- I'm just unsure, at least for Sonnenfeld. His info from the sources is vague. And who knows if Handler is the sole writer? He could possibly only have story credit, with others doing the teleplay and such. So yeah I think I'll hide the table for now, if you're cool with that, per my reasonings. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 05:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, completely fair enough. I'll stay on the lookout for other sources concerning the directing/writing.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 05:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- As will I, since I've just gotten "into" this article and caring about the series! - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 05:41, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, completely fair enough. I'll stay on the lookout for other sources concerning the directing/writing.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 05:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just unsure, at least for Sonnenfeld. His info from the sources is vague. And who knows if Handler is the sole writer? He could possibly only have story credit, with others doing the teleplay and such. So yeah I think I'll hide the table for now, if you're cool with that, per my reasonings. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 05:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
@ Reberin: It appears you have a conflict of interest regarding the subject matter of this article, per your message here on AlexTheWhovian's talk page. While we have no way of knowing if your statements are true (we do not want to WP:OUT you if you do not want to be more forthcoming about this matter), please note that any additions and changes to an article must be backed by third party reliable sources. That is what other users use to ensure changes to articles are accurately stating what the sources say. Additionally, in the case of a future TV series, if we don't get all the info before it releases, we are in no rush to do so, and will update the article accordingly once the series has premiered. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 04:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Concerning the title of the first two episodes, is it "The Bad Beginning" (as given by the episode guide in Netflix), or "A Bad Beginning" (as stated in the episodes themselves after the opening credits)? Alex|The|Whovian ? 17:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't started watching the series yet, but I do recall from some of the reviews, reviewers referring to it by "A Bad Beginning". How far have you gotten? Is this the only case so far, or are other titles by Netflix versus in the episode that are different? I'd say we could possibly use
|AltTitle=. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 17:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)- I've just started (12 minutes in), but I skipped through the credits of the other episodes, and they match accordingly, so it's just the first two with the alternate title.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 17:42, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- Then I say we use
|AltTitle=and ref notes next to the "A Bad Beginning" title. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 18:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)- For reliable sources on the matter,
EW's recap calls it "The Bad Beginning". Will see if I can find more to get a sample pool. Because if all refer to it as "The", then I think in that case we should just use
|RTitle=to list an {{ efn}} next to the title say within the show it was referred to with "A", not "The". - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2017 (UTC)- I'm seeing more and more sites title the episodes as "The" (including Zap2It
[1]
[2]), so I went ahead and added the notes, including {{
cite episode}} to declare where the episodes are titled with "A". The notes should also include references for examples of where they are titled as "The", yes?
Alex|The|Whovian
? 11:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- Looks good. I don't necessarily think sourcing for "The" is necessary, since it can be viewed on Netflix to verify. But as always, it wouldn't hurt. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- I'm seeing more and more sites title the episodes as "The" (including Zap2It
[1]
[2]), so I went ahead and added the notes, including {{
cite episode}} to declare where the episodes are titled with "A". The notes should also include references for examples of where they are titled as "The", yes?
Alex|The|Whovian
? 11:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- For reliable sources on the matter,
EW's recap calls it "The Bad Beginning". Will see if I can find more to get a sample pool. Because if all refer to it as "The", then I think in that case we should just use
- Then I say we use
- I've just started (12 minutes in), but I skipped through the credits of the other episodes, and they match accordingly, so it's just the first two with the alternate title.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 17:42, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I had added one this morning but was revert given that the episodes have the same information. What I'm thinking more is to establish the extremely broad plot discussion, leaving episodes to focus on details of the episodes so they can be shorter. Given that we will get 2 more seasons to complete the rest of the books, I doubt we'll need separate pages for each season, and thus a paragraph or two high level summary should be enough to set up though elements to simplify further plots. It would be comparable to any introductory synopsis for other TV series. -- MASEM ( t) 01:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
I do not agree with listing as a drama in the lead. It is not sourced to be a drama. It is sourced to be a black comedy. The film adaption is listed to be a black comedy while the book series is listed to be Gothic fiction, Absurdist fiction, Mystery, Steampunk, Children's fiction, and Black comedy. While a TV series could be a different genre than the source material, there is no source to validate that claim. Here are several references that it is a black comedy or dark comedy: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. I think that the sources speak for themselves. JDDJS ( talk) 18:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Do we have any similar sources that call it a drama? (I disagree that just because it is characters in a narrative that it considered drama, as drama the genre is usually distinct from comedy, even black comedy). --
MASEM (
t) 19:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Currently, we do not have any source for it being a drama. I tried to remove it; however,
User:AlexTheWhovian reverted me saying "All forms of cinema or television that involve fictional stories are forms of drama in the broader sense if their storytelling is achieved by means of actors who represent characters." and also mentioned
WP:STATUSQUO. I think that explanation is ridiculous because as you said, dramas are usually distinct from comedies. That is why they have separate categories for them at the Emmys and Golden Globes. I feel that if this show is nominated for awards, it will be in the comedy category.
JDDJS (
talk) 19:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that the definition by AlexTheWhovian is far too broad when one speaks of "drama" as a thematic genre - that might be a dictionary definition but when one is talking in the field of television and other published entertainment, "drama" has a different meaning as related to the genre. And even if we were consider the thematic genre of drama, this series really doesn't fall into that as it is less about an emotional story and more comedy, even if dark comedy which tends to play off negative emotions. Stay with what sources give it as. --
MASEM (
t) 21:49, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. That is not my personal definition of it, as JDDJS claims, when I stated in my edit summary that this definition is direct from
Drama (film and television) - twisting my words. Yes, this is a broad stroke, but it defines most television series correctly. And yes, a series can be multiple genres at once. However, it is duly noted that they only wish to discuss the drama genre, and not the also-unsourced mystery genre. (I also see that with one editor agreeing, that the editor who started this discussion would prefer to keep edit-warring over this. Duly noted.) But if you want sources, they are as follows.
- [10] "GENRE: Drama, Mystery And Thriller"
- [11]'s summary in Google [12] states "New Netflix drama, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, is packed with dark delights that parents will enjoy as much as children."
- [13] "Genre(s): Drama"
- [14] "In addition to narrating the drama"
- [15] "the streaming service also shared a minute-long trailer for the upcoming drama".
- And how could I forget Netflix itself? Under Details: "Genres: TV Shows, Kids' TV, TV Dramas". Alex|The|Whovian ? 01:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. That is not my personal definition of it, as JDDJS claims, when I stated in my edit summary that this definition is direct from
Drama (film and television) - twisting my words. Yes, this is a broad stroke, but it defines most television series correctly. And yes, a series can be multiple genres at once. However, it is duly noted that they only wish to discuss the drama genre, and not the also-unsourced mystery genre. (I also see that with one editor agreeing, that the editor who started this discussion would prefer to keep edit-warring over this. Duly noted.) But if you want sources, they are as follows.
- I agree that the definition by AlexTheWhovian is far too broad when one speaks of "drama" as a thematic genre - that might be a dictionary definition but when one is talking in the field of television and other published entertainment, "drama" has a different meaning as related to the genre. And even if we were consider the thematic genre of drama, this series really doesn't fall into that as it is less about an emotional story and more comedy, even if dark comedy which tends to play off negative emotions. Stay with what sources give it as. --
MASEM (
t) 21:49, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Currently, we do not have any source for it being a drama. I tried to remove it; however,
User:AlexTheWhovian reverted me saying "All forms of cinema or television that involve fictional stories are forms of drama in the broader sense if their storytelling is achieved by means of actors who represent characters." and also mentioned
WP:STATUSQUO. I think that explanation is ridiculous because as you said, dramas are usually distinct from comedies. That is why they have separate categories for them at the Emmys and Golden Globes. I feel that if this show is nominated for awards, it will be in the comedy category.
JDDJS (
talk) 19:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I never said it was your personal definition. I simply quoted what you said. I looked it up on Netflix, and I do not see listing drama as a genre. I did not remove mystery because the book series was sourced to be a mystery. I'm not claiming to have not edit warred, but you are just as guilty of edit warring as me. You refused to provide sources to back your claim, and since another editor clearly agreed while nobody had yet to agree with you and several hours had passed, I felt that it was okay to change it. Now that you finally provided sources to prove your claim, I'm okay with drama being listed in the info-box. However, I still think that the main genre is black comedy. It's what the book series and the film was considered and the reviews mention its humor far more than they do its drama. JDDJS ( talk) 02:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- Mm, you sort of did. You took the quote from the summary, but not where I got it from. But that is neither here nor there; we digress. The genre listing on Netflix is under the Details section when you're logged in; you won't see it as a logged out user. While the television series is an adaptation of the novel series, it is not identical, and hence "mystery" should be removed as a genre. When you say that nobody had agreed with me, that is actually a false claim - "drama" has stood as a genre of the series for months without incident, and therefore every editor who has edited the page has found no issue with it. The main genre can be more than one genre, but it's not based on what we think. Alex|The|Whovian ? 02:49, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I cannot find anything that affirms Netflix has renewed the series. Yes, it is confirmed that Handler and others on production staff are scripting out episodes as of last week, but the latest statement by anyone I can find is from Jan 12 where Sonnenfeld affirms that no greelight has been given by Netflix but they are laying out the episodes in anticipation. [16]. -- MASEM ( t) 14:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- It was based on
this source with Handler saying, "I am deep in season 2. I’ve been working in my own dining room with a team of writers I’m really loving on the next season, and we hope to get the go-ahead to do season 3". He did not say, "we hope to get the go-ahead on season 2 along with season 3". He only mentioned that for season 3, thus implying the series has already been renewed. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 18:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- When you combine the two sources (Variety and EW), all it appears is that Handler and others are doing high-level scoping of the screenplays, in anticipation of NetFlix greenlighting season two , given the early positive reception the series S1 got. There is no source that says - without reading between lines - that S2 is renewed. -- MASEM ( t) 18:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
This might be a question better asked when S2 is greenlit and we know who will be returning/etc, but a possible idea on the cast list might be to keep the "one-off" guest star characters that only appear across exactly one book/2-episode set (like Joan Cusack) as guest stars rather than recurring (like Olaf's troope or Elanora). If that was done, then I would suggest moving those names into the episode table to avoid excessive clutter. But that said: I cannot remember how these are credited in the show proper without rechecking, and I have not read the books so I have no idea if the non-dead characters (like Cusack's Judge) returns later in the books and/or if the show will be faithful to that; if that did happen, they would be back to recurring, so that would ruin this idea. -- MASEM ( t) 01:38, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the suggestions of moving them away from the Recurring section, but not to the episode table; typically, a "Guest" section is created in the cast list for them.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 02:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I have yet to start watching the series, but plan to shortly. I can assist on ordering the cast once I get through each episode. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 07:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- @ Masem and AlexTheWhovian: I just finished the series and reordered the cast section. I'll include the cast order below too. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
- I have yet to start watching the series, but plan to shortly. I can assist on ordering the cast once I get through each episode. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 07:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Cast order
- Main
Neil Patrick Harris, Patrick Warburton, Malina Weissman, Louis Hynes, K. Todd Freeman, Presley Smith
- 101
Special Guest Stars
- Will Arnett All episodes
- Cobie Smulders All episodes
- Joan Cusack 101 102
Guest Starring
- Usman Ally 101 102 104-108
- Matty Cardarople 101 102 104 105 106
- Cleo King 101 102 108
Co-Starring
- John DeSantis 101 102 104 105 106
- Jacqueline Robbins 101-106
- Joyce Robbins 101-106
- Jack Forrester 101
- Kaniel Jackob-Cross 101
- Darcey Johnson 101
- 102
Co-Starring
- Sara Canning 102 103 104 108
- Luke Camilleri 102 103
- 103
Guest Starring
- Aasif Mandvi 103 104
Co-Starring
- Mary Black 103
- Matthew Walker 103
- Patrick Keating 103 108
- John Stweart 103
- 104
No new actors
- 105
Special Guest Stars
- Alfre Woodard 105 106
Guest Starring
- Patrick Breen 105 106
Co-Starring
- Rob Labelle 105 106
- Daniel Handler 105 106 107
- Daniel Letto 105
- Elizabeth Bowen 105
- Mark Brandon 105
- Stefania Indelicato 105
- 106
Co-Starring
- Keith Blackman Dallas 106 107
- 107
Special Guest Stars
- Don Johnson 107 108
- Catherine O'Hara 107 108
Guest Starring
- Rhys Darby 107 108
- Dylan Kingwell 107 108
- Avi Lake 107 108
Co-Starring
- Timothy Webber 107 108
- Chris Gauthier 107 108
- Loretta Walsh 107 108
- Trent Redekop 107 108
- 108
No new actors
- Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Masem In regards to the episode titles, we have always used the episode titles as displayed in the Netflix service. How else would we list them if they didn't have title cards? (Especially since this is the very case for almost all series, I almost never seen episodic title cards.) In your same revert, the titles continue to be listed as Part 1 and Part 2, but in the titles cards, they are Part One and Part Two (I added a note for this). So, they should continue to be listed as per the service, with notes on deviations between the title card and the episode title, just as the very first two episodes of the series (Bad Beginning) have had since (roughly) their release. -- Alex TW 13:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- I do feel its a bit excessively nitpicking to note a missing "the" or whether they use "part 1" vs "part one"; I would especially be a bit more concerned that the Netflix catalog listing takes priority or importance over an episode's title card or credits, unless that is the only place where an episode's title is mentioned. I could understand if there was a completely different word used between these titles, but the small differences so far are really not necessary for a summary article to note. -- Masem ( t) 14:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
How do programmers of the website get precedent over the actual graphics people on the show? Fradio71 ( talk) 01:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Because the title aren't created or determined by "programmers" and "graphics people". -- /
Alex/
21 01:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Right, and if the episode itself uses articles and spelled out numbers, then Wikipedia uses articles and spelled out numbers.--
Fradio71 (
talk) 01:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on? Concerning television articles, the Television WikiProject has always used, and will likely continue to use, the episode titles as they are directly listed by their original channel or network. Why should this article be different to thousands of similar ones? -- /
Alex/
21 01:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- The problem is what you're claiming to do is the exact opposite of what you're doing. You're taking the exception to the rule, not the rule. Status quo favors Masem and I, not you-- Fradio71 ( talk) 02:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- citation needed. I'm taking no exception to the rule - the episode titles as listed as listed by their original channel or network. Also, Masem's post was nine months ago. -- / Alex/ 21 02:22, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on? Concerning television articles, the Television WikiProject has always used, and will likely continue to use, the episode titles as they are directly listed by their original channel or network. Why should this article be different to thousands of similar ones? -- /
Alex/
21 01:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Right, and if the episode itself uses articles and spelled out numbers, then Wikipedia uses articles and spelled out numbers.--
Fradio71 (
talk) 01:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Because this is the name used by Netflix, the official source. It is standard practice to use the title reported by the channel itself – for instance, IMDb does it. It's unfortunate that there's been some miscommunication within Netflix about episode titles, but that's what we're stuck with. The compromise already in place on this article is to add a note explaining that the graphics card titles differ. — Bilorv (c) (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
 | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
In Season 2 episode 3, the previous editor wrote that Count Olaf disguises himself as a "wealthy suitor for Esme". That is a mistake because actually, he disguised himself as a foreign auctioneer. Even though that he does SEEM wealthy and he does flirt with Esme, those things are not the main persona that Olaf was trying to disguise himself as, so a foreign auctioneer is more apt and truer to the source material. Micolatecake ( talk) 08:23, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Rtkat3: Why should we be splitting the episodes? Such a suggestion would not conform with WP:SIZESPLIT or the consensus at User:Bignole/Episode page. There's going to be no further episodes other than the current twenty-five. -- / Alex/ 21 05:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Most of the known pages containing more that one season has their episodes split to another page if there is more than one season like they did with
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.,
Gotham,
BoJack Horseman,
All Hail King Julien, and other shows that have more than one season that are too many to list. The ones that don't have their own episode page are the short-lived ones. --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 16:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- The "more than one season" rule has long been deprecated through multiple discussions and a firm consensus. Now, we use actual guidelines for the basis for splits. The results of those discussions is listed at the above user page, and nothing within it would support the split of episodes for this series. -- / Alex/ 21 16:41, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Because the show's now fixed - no more episodes - so we can tell exactly how much content there will be, we can judge now if this should be split, and I really don't think this should. Namely, to keep concise plot summaries, some of the details on characters fall into the casting, and those two sections should be kept together. So I oppose a split at this point. -- Masem ( t) 16:42, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
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@ AlexTheWhovian: The way I was reading the info from the sources, is they are on board to direct and write, respectively, but didn't necessarily equate that to them do all. Though that could very well be true. Just wanted to discuss, because I don't know if we can make that assumption. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 17:12, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
- By the way it was listed here, I assuemed that it was true that they would be directing and writing all episodes. For example, "
it was announced that Barry Sonnenfeld and Mark Hudis had agreed to helm the series. Hudis would serve as showrunner, Sonnenfeld as director [...] with Daniel Handler writing the scripts
". By stating that Sonnenfeld was helming the series, that sounds synonymous with him leading the directing. And Handler states in the source that "right now Netflix is adapting A Series of Unfortunate Events for the screen and I am writing the script
", which also sounds as if he is writing the entire script, not just part of it It may be wrong; if you want to hide the episode table for now, I'd be fine with that. Alex|The|Whovian ? 21:26, 5 October 2016 (UTC)- I'm just unsure, at least for Sonnenfeld. His info from the sources is vague. And who knows if Handler is the sole writer? He could possibly only have story credit, with others doing the teleplay and such. So yeah I think I'll hide the table for now, if you're cool with that, per my reasonings. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 05:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, completely fair enough. I'll stay on the lookout for other sources concerning the directing/writing.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 05:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- As will I, since I've just gotten "into" this article and caring about the series! - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 05:41, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Yep, completely fair enough. I'll stay on the lookout for other sources concerning the directing/writing.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 05:25, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- I'm just unsure, at least for Sonnenfeld. His info from the sources is vague. And who knows if Handler is the sole writer? He could possibly only have story credit, with others doing the teleplay and such. So yeah I think I'll hide the table for now, if you're cool with that, per my reasonings. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 05:14, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
@ Reberin: It appears you have a conflict of interest regarding the subject matter of this article, per your message here on AlexTheWhovian's talk page. While we have no way of knowing if your statements are true (we do not want to WP:OUT you if you do not want to be more forthcoming about this matter), please note that any additions and changes to an article must be backed by third party reliable sources. That is what other users use to ensure changes to articles are accurately stating what the sources say. Additionally, in the case of a future TV series, if we don't get all the info before it releases, we are in no rush to do so, and will update the article accordingly once the series has premiered. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 04:43, 13 December 2016 (UTC)
Concerning the title of the first two episodes, is it "The Bad Beginning" (as given by the episode guide in Netflix), or "A Bad Beginning" (as stated in the episodes themselves after the opening credits)? Alex|The|Whovian ? 17:24, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- I haven't started watching the series yet, but I do recall from some of the reviews, reviewers referring to it by "A Bad Beginning". How far have you gotten? Is this the only case so far, or are other titles by Netflix versus in the episode that are different? I'd say we could possibly use
|AltTitle=. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 17:39, 13 January 2017 (UTC)- I've just started (12 minutes in), but I skipped through the credits of the other episodes, and they match accordingly, so it's just the first two with the alternate title.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 17:42, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
- Then I say we use
|AltTitle=and ref notes next to the "A Bad Beginning" title. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 18:21, 13 January 2017 (UTC)- For reliable sources on the matter,
EW's recap calls it "The Bad Beginning". Will see if I can find more to get a sample pool. Because if all refer to it as "The", then I think in that case we should just use
|RTitle=to list an {{ efn}} next to the title say within the show it was referred to with "A", not "The". - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 06:47, 14 January 2017 (UTC)- I'm seeing more and more sites title the episodes as "The" (including Zap2It
[1]
[2]), so I went ahead and added the notes, including {{
cite episode}} to declare where the episodes are titled with "A". The notes should also include references for examples of where they are titled as "The", yes?
Alex|The|Whovian
? 11:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- Looks good. I don't necessarily think sourcing for "The" is necessary, since it can be viewed on Netflix to verify. But as always, it wouldn't hurt. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:14, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- I'm seeing more and more sites title the episodes as "The" (including Zap2It
[1]
[2]), so I went ahead and added the notes, including {{
cite episode}} to declare where the episodes are titled with "A". The notes should also include references for examples of where they are titled as "The", yes?
Alex|The|Whovian
? 11:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)
- For reliable sources on the matter,
EW's recap calls it "The Bad Beginning". Will see if I can find more to get a sample pool. Because if all refer to it as "The", then I think in that case we should just use
- Then I say we use
- I've just started (12 minutes in), but I skipped through the credits of the other episodes, and they match accordingly, so it's just the first two with the alternate title.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 17:42, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
I had added one this morning but was revert given that the episodes have the same information. What I'm thinking more is to establish the extremely broad plot discussion, leaving episodes to focus on details of the episodes so they can be shorter. Given that we will get 2 more seasons to complete the rest of the books, I doubt we'll need separate pages for each season, and thus a paragraph or two high level summary should be enough to set up though elements to simplify further plots. It would be comparable to any introductory synopsis for other TV series. -- MASEM ( t) 01:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
I do not agree with listing as a drama in the lead. It is not sourced to be a drama. It is sourced to be a black comedy. The film adaption is listed to be a black comedy while the book series is listed to be Gothic fiction, Absurdist fiction, Mystery, Steampunk, Children's fiction, and Black comedy. While a TV series could be a different genre than the source material, there is no source to validate that claim. Here are several references that it is a black comedy or dark comedy: [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]. I think that the sources speak for themselves. JDDJS ( talk) 18:07, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Do we have any similar sources that call it a drama? (I disagree that just because it is characters in a narrative that it considered drama, as drama the genre is usually distinct from comedy, even black comedy). --
MASEM (
t) 19:20, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Currently, we do not have any source for it being a drama. I tried to remove it; however,
User:AlexTheWhovian reverted me saying "All forms of cinema or television that involve fictional stories are forms of drama in the broader sense if their storytelling is achieved by means of actors who represent characters." and also mentioned
WP:STATUSQUO. I think that explanation is ridiculous because as you said, dramas are usually distinct from comedies. That is why they have separate categories for them at the Emmys and Golden Globes. I feel that if this show is nominated for awards, it will be in the comedy category.
JDDJS (
talk) 19:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that the definition by AlexTheWhovian is far too broad when one speaks of "drama" as a thematic genre - that might be a dictionary definition but when one is talking in the field of television and other published entertainment, "drama" has a different meaning as related to the genre. And even if we were consider the thematic genre of drama, this series really doesn't fall into that as it is less about an emotional story and more comedy, even if dark comedy which tends to play off negative emotions. Stay with what sources give it as. --
MASEM (
t) 21:49, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. That is not my personal definition of it, as JDDJS claims, when I stated in my edit summary that this definition is direct from
Drama (film and television) - twisting my words. Yes, this is a broad stroke, but it defines most television series correctly. And yes, a series can be multiple genres at once. However, it is duly noted that they only wish to discuss the drama genre, and not the also-unsourced mystery genre. (I also see that with one editor agreeing, that the editor who started this discussion would prefer to keep edit-warring over this. Duly noted.) But if you want sources, they are as follows.
- [10] "GENRE: Drama, Mystery And Thriller"
- [11]'s summary in Google [12] states "New Netflix drama, Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events, is packed with dark delights that parents will enjoy as much as children."
- [13] "Genre(s): Drama"
- [14] "In addition to narrating the drama"
- [15] "the streaming service also shared a minute-long trailer for the upcoming drama".
- And how could I forget Netflix itself? Under Details: "Genres: TV Shows, Kids' TV, TV Dramas". Alex|The|Whovian ? 01:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- I completely disagree. That is not my personal definition of it, as JDDJS claims, when I stated in my edit summary that this definition is direct from
Drama (film and television) - twisting my words. Yes, this is a broad stroke, but it defines most television series correctly. And yes, a series can be multiple genres at once. However, it is duly noted that they only wish to discuss the drama genre, and not the also-unsourced mystery genre. (I also see that with one editor agreeing, that the editor who started this discussion would prefer to keep edit-warring over this. Duly noted.) But if you want sources, they are as follows.
- I agree that the definition by AlexTheWhovian is far too broad when one speaks of "drama" as a thematic genre - that might be a dictionary definition but when one is talking in the field of television and other published entertainment, "drama" has a different meaning as related to the genre. And even if we were consider the thematic genre of drama, this series really doesn't fall into that as it is less about an emotional story and more comedy, even if dark comedy which tends to play off negative emotions. Stay with what sources give it as. --
MASEM (
t) 21:49, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
- Currently, we do not have any source for it being a drama. I tried to remove it; however,
User:AlexTheWhovian reverted me saying "All forms of cinema or television that involve fictional stories are forms of drama in the broader sense if their storytelling is achieved by means of actors who represent characters." and also mentioned
WP:STATUSQUO. I think that explanation is ridiculous because as you said, dramas are usually distinct from comedies. That is why they have separate categories for them at the Emmys and Golden Globes. I feel that if this show is nominated for awards, it will be in the comedy category.
JDDJS (
talk) 19:41, 19 January 2017 (UTC)
I never said it was your personal definition. I simply quoted what you said. I looked it up on Netflix, and I do not see listing drama as a genre. I did not remove mystery because the book series was sourced to be a mystery. I'm not claiming to have not edit warred, but you are just as guilty of edit warring as me. You refused to provide sources to back your claim, and since another editor clearly agreed while nobody had yet to agree with you and several hours had passed, I felt that it was okay to change it. Now that you finally provided sources to prove your claim, I'm okay with drama being listed in the info-box. However, I still think that the main genre is black comedy. It's what the book series and the film was considered and the reviews mention its humor far more than they do its drama. JDDJS ( talk) 02:39, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- Mm, you sort of did. You took the quote from the summary, but not where I got it from. But that is neither here nor there; we digress. The genre listing on Netflix is under the Details section when you're logged in; you won't see it as a logged out user. While the television series is an adaptation of the novel series, it is not identical, and hence "mystery" should be removed as a genre. When you say that nobody had agreed with me, that is actually a false claim - "drama" has stood as a genre of the series for months without incident, and therefore every editor who has edited the page has found no issue with it. The main genre can be more than one genre, but it's not based on what we think. Alex|The|Whovian ? 02:49, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
I cannot find anything that affirms Netflix has renewed the series. Yes, it is confirmed that Handler and others on production staff are scripting out episodes as of last week, but the latest statement by anyone I can find is from Jan 12 where Sonnenfeld affirms that no greelight has been given by Netflix but they are laying out the episodes in anticipation. [16]. -- MASEM ( t) 14:48, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- It was based on
this source with Handler saying, "I am deep in season 2. I’ve been working in my own dining room with a team of writers I’m really loving on the next season, and we hope to get the go-ahead to do season 3". He did not say, "we hope to get the go-ahead on season 2 along with season 3". He only mentioned that for season 3, thus implying the series has already been renewed. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 18:43, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
- When you combine the two sources (Variety and EW), all it appears is that Handler and others are doing high-level scoping of the screenplays, in anticipation of NetFlix greenlighting season two , given the early positive reception the series S1 got. There is no source that says - without reading between lines - that S2 is renewed. -- MASEM ( t) 18:58, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
This might be a question better asked when S2 is greenlit and we know who will be returning/etc, but a possible idea on the cast list might be to keep the "one-off" guest star characters that only appear across exactly one book/2-episode set (like Joan Cusack) as guest stars rather than recurring (like Olaf's troope or Elanora). If that was done, then I would suggest moving those names into the episode table to avoid excessive clutter. But that said: I cannot remember how these are credited in the show proper without rechecking, and I have not read the books so I have no idea if the non-dead characters (like Cusack's Judge) returns later in the books and/or if the show will be faithful to that; if that did happen, they would be back to recurring, so that would ruin this idea. -- MASEM ( t) 01:38, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with the suggestions of moving them away from the Recurring section, but not to the episode table; typically, a "Guest" section is created in the cast list for them.
Alex|The|Whovian
? 02:19, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- I have yet to start watching the series, but plan to shortly. I can assist on ordering the cast once I get through each episode. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 07:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
- @ Masem and AlexTheWhovian: I just finished the series and reordered the cast section. I'll include the cast order below too. - Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
- I have yet to start watching the series, but plan to shortly. I can assist on ordering the cast once I get through each episode. -
Favre1fan93 (
talk) 07:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Cast order
- Main
Neil Patrick Harris, Patrick Warburton, Malina Weissman, Louis Hynes, K. Todd Freeman, Presley Smith
- 101
Special Guest Stars
- Will Arnett All episodes
- Cobie Smulders All episodes
- Joan Cusack 101 102
Guest Starring
- Usman Ally 101 102 104-108
- Matty Cardarople 101 102 104 105 106
- Cleo King 101 102 108
Co-Starring
- John DeSantis 101 102 104 105 106
- Jacqueline Robbins 101-106
- Joyce Robbins 101-106
- Jack Forrester 101
- Kaniel Jackob-Cross 101
- Darcey Johnson 101
- 102
Co-Starring
- Sara Canning 102 103 104 108
- Luke Camilleri 102 103
- 103
Guest Starring
- Aasif Mandvi 103 104
Co-Starring
- Mary Black 103
- Matthew Walker 103
- Patrick Keating 103 108
- John Stweart 103
- 104
No new actors
- 105
Special Guest Stars
- Alfre Woodard 105 106
Guest Starring
- Patrick Breen 105 106
Co-Starring
- Rob Labelle 105 106
- Daniel Handler 105 106 107
- Daniel Letto 105
- Elizabeth Bowen 105
- Mark Brandon 105
- Stefania Indelicato 105
- 106
Co-Starring
- Keith Blackman Dallas 106 107
- 107
Special Guest Stars
- Don Johnson 107 108
- Catherine O'Hara 107 108
Guest Starring
- Rhys Darby 107 108
- Dylan Kingwell 107 108
- Avi Lake 107 108
Co-Starring
- Timothy Webber 107 108
- Chris Gauthier 107 108
- Loretta Walsh 107 108
- Trent Redekop 107 108
- 108
No new actors
- Favre1fan93 ( talk) 19:50, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
Masem In regards to the episode titles, we have always used the episode titles as displayed in the Netflix service. How else would we list them if they didn't have title cards? (Especially since this is the very case for almost all series, I almost never seen episodic title cards.) In your same revert, the titles continue to be listed as Part 1 and Part 2, but in the titles cards, they are Part One and Part Two (I added a note for this). So, they should continue to be listed as per the service, with notes on deviations between the title card and the episode title, just as the very first two episodes of the series (Bad Beginning) have had since (roughly) their release. -- Alex TW 13:58, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
- I do feel its a bit excessively nitpicking to note a missing "the" or whether they use "part 1" vs "part one"; I would especially be a bit more concerned that the Netflix catalog listing takes priority or importance over an episode's title card or credits, unless that is the only place where an episode's title is mentioned. I could understand if there was a completely different word used between these titles, but the small differences so far are really not necessary for a summary article to note. -- Masem ( t) 14:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
How do programmers of the website get precedent over the actual graphics people on the show? Fradio71 ( talk) 01:29, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Because the title aren't created or determined by "programmers" and "graphics people". -- /
Alex/
21 01:32, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Right, and if the episode itself uses articles and spelled out numbers, then Wikipedia uses articles and spelled out numbers.--
Fradio71 (
talk) 01:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on? Concerning television articles, the Television WikiProject has always used, and will likely continue to use, the episode titles as they are directly listed by their original channel or network. Why should this article be different to thousands of similar ones? -- /
Alex/
21 01:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- The problem is what you're claiming to do is the exact opposite of what you're doing. You're taking the exception to the rule, not the rule. Status quo favors Masem and I, not you-- Fradio71 ( talk) 02:13, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- citation needed. I'm taking no exception to the rule - the episode titles as listed as listed by their original channel or network. Also, Masem's post was nine months ago. -- / Alex/ 21 02:22, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Based on? Concerning television articles, the Television WikiProject has always used, and will likely continue to use, the episode titles as they are directly listed by their original channel or network. Why should this article be different to thousands of similar ones? -- /
Alex/
21 01:37, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Right, and if the episode itself uses articles and spelled out numbers, then Wikipedia uses articles and spelled out numbers.--
Fradio71 (
talk) 01:35, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
- Because this is the name used by Netflix, the official source. It is standard practice to use the title reported by the channel itself – for instance, IMDb does it. It's unfortunate that there's been some miscommunication within Netflix about episode titles, but that's what we're stuck with. The compromise already in place on this article is to add a note explaining that the graphics card titles differ. — Bilorv (c) (talk) 16:01, 3 January 2019 (UTC)
| This
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In Season 2 episode 3, the previous editor wrote that Count Olaf disguises himself as a "wealthy suitor for Esme". That is a mistake because actually, he disguised himself as a foreign auctioneer. Even though that he does SEEM wealthy and he does flirt with Esme, those things are not the main persona that Olaf was trying to disguise himself as, so a foreign auctioneer is more apt and truer to the source material. Micolatecake ( talk) 08:23, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Rtkat3: Why should we be splitting the episodes? Such a suggestion would not conform with WP:SIZESPLIT or the consensus at User:Bignole/Episode page. There's going to be no further episodes other than the current twenty-five. -- / Alex/ 21 05:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Most of the known pages containing more that one season has their episodes split to another page if there is more than one season like they did with
Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.,
Gotham,
BoJack Horseman,
All Hail King Julien, and other shows that have more than one season that are too many to list. The ones that don't have their own episode page are the short-lived ones. --
Rtkat3 (
talk) 16:39, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- The "more than one season" rule has long been deprecated through multiple discussions and a firm consensus. Now, we use actual guidelines for the basis for splits. The results of those discussions is listed at the above user page, and nothing within it would support the split of episodes for this series. -- / Alex/ 21 16:41, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Because the show's now fixed - no more episodes - so we can tell exactly how much content there will be, we can judge now if this should be split, and I really don't think this should. Namely, to keep concise plot summaries, some of the details on characters fall into the casting, and those two sections should be kept together. So I oppose a split at this point. -- Masem ( t) 16:42, 6 February 2019 (UTC)