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APA Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 13:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
OMG should I not be removing redlinks? I thought it was good to do as a form of cleanup. Sorry about that. Tanaats 02:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Does any one has acccess to P.G. Zimbardo, Mind control: psychological reality or mindless rhetoric? APA Monitor on Psychology, where a new talsk force was asked to be formed to study the subject? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi, does the cite "Summons of January 31, 1994, n. 110, p. 31" for the Singer summons meet WP:V? I don't see how someone could verify with that little information. Tanaats 04:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Same question for "Press Release, Aug 12, 1992 from Michael Flomenhaf" Tanaats 04:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the sentence regarding the summons to "The court summons issued in the case on behalf of Singer and Ofshe stated that the the rejection of the DIMPAC report was 'described by the APA as a rejection of the scientific validity of the theory of coercive persuasion'".
This is all that can be objectively reported. We don't know that this is Singer's language as opposed to her attorney's language. We don't know that Singer "acknowledged" anything. All we objectively know is that this is the language that was found in the summons. Tanaats 07:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The BSERP is an APA board. It commissioned the report, and rejected its findings. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
That is a letter of rejection. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about the attempts to diminish the impact of the APA rejection of the report. I will ask other involved editors to comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Smeelgova, read articles about the DIMPAC controversy. No one uses BSERP and no one uses "not accepted". All sources I found speak of a rejection by the APA. For example:
For Singer and Ofshe, the negative decision in the Fishman case set a precedent that meant the end of their lucrative sideline in providing expert testimony in criminal court. But that wasn’t their last word. Outraged, they were determined to retaliate. Alleging that Richardson and other cult-friendly scholars had manipulated the APA and the ASA into taking positions against the brainwashing theory, Singer and Ofshe filed a federal civil suit in New York City under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act in 1992. The suit named as defendants the APA and the ASA, as well as numerous individuals connected with writing the Molko-Leal briefs. Treating those staid, scholarly organizations as though they were the Mafia (which was the original target of the RICO law), the suit alleged a complex conspiracy involving the APA and the ASA’s statements in the Molko-Leal case; various pieces of correspondence among the parties that reflected negatively on Ofshe and Singer; and a 1987 rejection by the APA of a task force report authored by Singer and critical of the Unification Church.
Even Singer supporters such as Amitrani and Di Marzio say "The main point of the document is this: the Memorandum expresses no official rejection of mind control theories, but only rejects a report drawn up buy a committee on the issue of mental manipulation theories as applied to New Religious Movements. This rejection was due to a lack of proper methods."
The Maryland Cult Task force documentation includes text such as "Contrary to what Mr. Loomis told the Task Force, this document is unequivocal in its rejection of a draft report submitted by Margaret Singer on behalf of the DIMPAC committee she chaired.
So, the report was rejected, and that is not POV pushing, is a fact and we should refer to it is as such. Also, you keep referring to the BSERP as it was not the APA, and that is incorrect. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
We ought to expand on this lawsuit. Many sources I am reading describe this case as pivotal and its ruling has been widely used since then in may cases. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The use of the term "malicious" is not supported by the quote. It is probably an interpretation by CESNUR. I ask that it be removed again to restore objective reporting. Tanaats 20:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
We need some material from Zablocki's response to the DIMPAC report rejection. I think that Zimbardo makes a less polarized argument about the report and its rejection by APA, and may be an excellent addition to the report. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we need to replace "reject" by "failed to accept" or "dismissed"? All the secondary and sources quoted refer to it as a rejection, even her supporters and even Singer and Ofshe themselves. Is there a need to mitigate that fact? Why? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The discussions of the contents of the report use both past tense and present tense. Which do we want to use? Tanaats 23:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The summary of the report may not be reflective of the report's content, as the most controversial aspects of the report are not in the "Recommendations" section. I would support a removal of that summary, (as it is a primary source), or alternatively, some key passages from the report itself, rather then the recommendations. Otherwise there is a discrepancy between the report rejection memo, and the reviews written by the external experts and what we are reporting on the article about the report content. Added to to to do list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The cite "Press Release, Aug 12, 1992 from Michael Flomenhaf" doesn't give enough specifics to enable a reader to verify it. I'm going to delete it soon for being not verifiable. Tanaats 18:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess I won't! Tanaats 23:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is the "Deprogramming Survivors Network" and why is their self-published opinion notable here? They don't seem to have any current net presence, and the few press hits tend to be brief mentions as a possible front group. AndroidCat ( talk) 03:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)Almost all of the references are primary sources and are referenced to the APA and to this document in particular. A substantial part of the article is regarding various court cases rather than the document itself. The article is overall pretty absymal and should be nuked. Bueller 007 ( talk) 14:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
APA Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article was nominated for deletion on 16 October 2020. The result of the discussion was keep. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 25 January 2021 and 30 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yayaggies.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 13:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
OMG should I not be removing redlinks? I thought it was good to do as a form of cleanup. Sorry about that. Tanaats 02:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Does any one has acccess to P.G. Zimbardo, Mind control: psychological reality or mindless rhetoric? APA Monitor on Psychology, where a new talsk force was asked to be formed to study the subject? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Jossi, does the cite "Summons of January 31, 1994, n. 110, p. 31" for the Singer summons meet WP:V? I don't see how someone could verify with that little information. Tanaats 04:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Same question for "Press Release, Aug 12, 1992 from Michael Flomenhaf" Tanaats 04:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I've changed the sentence regarding the summons to "The court summons issued in the case on behalf of Singer and Ofshe stated that the the rejection of the DIMPAC report was 'described by the APA as a rejection of the scientific validity of the theory of coercive persuasion'".
This is all that can be objectively reported. We don't know that this is Singer's language as opposed to her attorney's language. We don't know that Singer "acknowledged" anything. All we objectively know is that this is the language that was found in the summons. Tanaats 07:17, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The BSERP is an APA board. It commissioned the report, and rejected its findings. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
That is a letter of rejection. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I am concerned about the attempts to diminish the impact of the APA rejection of the report. I will ask other involved editors to comment. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:26, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Smeelgova, read articles about the DIMPAC controversy. No one uses BSERP and no one uses "not accepted". All sources I found speak of a rejection by the APA. For example:
For Singer and Ofshe, the negative decision in the Fishman case set a precedent that meant the end of their lucrative sideline in providing expert testimony in criminal court. But that wasn’t their last word. Outraged, they were determined to retaliate. Alleging that Richardson and other cult-friendly scholars had manipulated the APA and the ASA into taking positions against the brainwashing theory, Singer and Ofshe filed a federal civil suit in New York City under the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations (RICO) Act in 1992. The suit named as defendants the APA and the ASA, as well as numerous individuals connected with writing the Molko-Leal briefs. Treating those staid, scholarly organizations as though they were the Mafia (which was the original target of the RICO law), the suit alleged a complex conspiracy involving the APA and the ASA’s statements in the Molko-Leal case; various pieces of correspondence among the parties that reflected negatively on Ofshe and Singer; and a 1987 rejection by the APA of a task force report authored by Singer and critical of the Unification Church.
Even Singer supporters such as Amitrani and Di Marzio say "The main point of the document is this: the Memorandum expresses no official rejection of mind control theories, but only rejects a report drawn up buy a committee on the issue of mental manipulation theories as applied to New Religious Movements. This rejection was due to a lack of proper methods."
The Maryland Cult Task force documentation includes text such as "Contrary to what Mr. Loomis told the Task Force, this document is unequivocal in its rejection of a draft report submitted by Margaret Singer on behalf of the DIMPAC committee she chaired.
So, the report was rejected, and that is not POV pushing, is a fact and we should refer to it is as such. Also, you keep referring to the BSERP as it was not the APA, and that is incorrect. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
We ought to expand on this lawsuit. Many sources I am reading describe this case as pivotal and its ruling has been widely used since then in may cases. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
The use of the term "malicious" is not supported by the quote. It is probably an interpretation by CESNUR. I ask that it be removed again to restore objective reporting. Tanaats 20:11, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
We need some material from Zablocki's response to the DIMPAC report rejection. I think that Zimbardo makes a less polarized argument about the report and its rejection by APA, and may be an excellent addition to the report. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:07, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Do we need to replace "reject" by "failed to accept" or "dismissed"? All the secondary and sources quoted refer to it as a rejection, even her supporters and even Singer and Ofshe themselves. Is there a need to mitigate that fact? Why? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:03, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The discussions of the contents of the report use both past tense and present tense. Which do we want to use? Tanaats 23:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
The summary of the report may not be reflective of the report's content, as the most controversial aspects of the report are not in the "Recommendations" section. I would support a removal of that summary, (as it is a primary source), or alternatively, some key passages from the report itself, rather then the recommendations. Otherwise there is a discrepancy between the report rejection memo, and the reviews written by the external experts and what we are reporting on the article about the report content. Added to to to do list. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:51, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The cite "Press Release, Aug 12, 1992 from Michael Flomenhaf" doesn't give enough specifics to enable a reader to verify it. I'm going to delete it soon for being not verifiable. Tanaats 18:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
I guess I won't! Tanaats 23:11, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Who is the "Deprogramming Survivors Network" and why is their self-published opinion notable here? They don't seem to have any current net presence, and the few press hits tend to be brief mentions as a possible front group. AndroidCat ( talk) 03:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
{{
cite news}}
: Unknown parameter |month=
ignored (
help)Almost all of the references are primary sources and are referenced to the APA and to this document in particular. A substantial part of the article is regarding various court cases rather than the document itself. The article is overall pretty absymal and should be nuked. Bueller 007 ( talk) 14:20, 24 September 2020 (UTC)