The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
India,
Pakistan, and
Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2021 Kabul airlift article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Weaveravel (
talk ·
contribs) seems to have moved discussion to the heading that started
2 September, boldly collapsing because it tripped up another editor and I.
Discuss-Dubious (
t/
c) 18:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|
---|
It's a neutral and formal word, less vague than "evacuation", and doesn't exclude for example fleeing Afghans themvelves. (The only evacuation is by air from the airport, so "airlift" is perfect). Plus many major reliable media outlets are using the term airlift about this situation:
|
The infobox has it as 150,000 (while its reference that was published before the end of the operations said 114,000). The lede has a different reference that was published after the end of the operations with the number of 122,000. If there is no better references, we should then change the number in the infobox to 122,000. Z22 ( talk) 13:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Should the Taliban be included in the executed by list as we already in the body of the article has multiple sources mentioning what was effectively active co-operation between them and foreign governments in getting citizens to the airport and maintaining order outside of it? Apache287 ( talk) 15:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Kabul Airlift (2021). – wbm1058 ( talk) 21:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
2021 evacuation from Afghanistan → Kabul airlift – (or 2021 Kabul airlift with the year). It's a neutral and formal word, less vague than "evacuation", and doesn't exclude for example Afghan civilians at the airport themvelves. This event is an airlift and evacuation only done by air, so it's perfect; other Afghans fleeing by land are not part of the "evacuation", hence this is strictly an airlift). Plus a large number of major reliable media outlets are using the term airlift about this situation, for example:
When you have all of these well known media using airlift, there is no doubt whatsoever that it is also the WP:COMMONNAME. It is also much simpler than the long "2021 evacuation from Afghanistan" -- WR 16:41, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
This page should stay at the original title because the journalists which WP's reliability rules are most attuned to were focused on the high publicity events at Kabul Airport, which they could get much easier access to. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
References
As far as your argument that “evacuation” excluded Afghans goes, many sources use the term “evacuation” to describe Afghan civilians: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/02/afghan-evacuation-war-by-numbers/ https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/first-evacuated-afghan-refugees-arrive-in-arizona-for-resettlement https://news.yahoo.com/afghan-refugees-arrive-dulles-airport-181000304.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/afghan-evacuees-resettlement-us/2021/09/01/c68b6a42-0b4e-11ec-a256-709238a1404d_story.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-delta-pilot-who-flew-an-evacuation-plane-ferrying-afghan-refugees-out-of-germany-is-the-son-of-a-holocaust-survivor-i-was-able-to-put-myself-in-their-position/ar-AANOzuw https://www.ithacajournal.com/story/news/2021/08/27/new-york-afghan-refugee-resettlement/5616129001/ https://mynorthwest.com/3110987/inslee-biden-letter-encourages-evacuation-efforts-afghanistan/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fort-mccoy-houses-around-3000-afghan-refugees-as-evacuation-ends/ar-AANUQUV https://people.com/politics/george-w-and-laura-bush-urge-evacuation-of-afghan-refugees/ https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-26/afghan-refugees-land-at-heathrow-after-evacuation-im-so-happythank-you
If I pulled all the sources that say “evacuation” without “airlift”, it would overtake the sources that say “airlift”. As per Buckshot06, it’s a good idea to keep things open out of interest for coverage of land escapes. The US is reported to be planning to use land routes to allow people to escape. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-looking-at-land-routes-to-continue-afghanistan-evacuations/ar-AANZVLa Discuss-Dubious ( t/ c) 17:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Is the discussion on move proposal closed? The page has been moved to a new title. Z22 ( talk) 17:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the infobox for this article should change to Template:Infobox military conflict. I have tried to do it myself to no avail. The reason for this is that a) there were opponents to this operation from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Khorasan Province and b) this event is regularly compared to Operation Frequent Wind which uses an infobox military conflict. ElderZamzam ( talk) 02:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
"Evacuation" is for a dozen people. "Exodus" is more appropriate to describe this reality.-- 2601:C4:C380:49E0:55AA:1FCB:5D12:C5D7 ( talk) 14:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Source https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/28/asia/afghanistan-us-airstrike-evacuation-mission-intl/index.html also The New York Times on Youtube have a Visual Investigations video which can be referenced.
157.41.135.102 ( talk) 11:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page Moved to 2021 Kabul airlift per consensus. ( non-admin closure) signed, Iflaq (talk) 05:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
2021 Kabul Airlift →
2021 Kabul airlift – Excessive capitalization. The previous move closed at
Kabul Airlift (2021), with "Kabul Airlift" a proper noun. As "2021 Kabul Airlift", "airlift" is a descriptive word and not a proper noun.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 20:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
The article is mostly a day ba day account. It needs a final balance of all nations involved:
-- 2A02:8109:BD40:65C4:0:0:0:8E6F ( talk) 14:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Not sure how to include this, its new information
Thanks
John Cummings ( talk) 13:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)
The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to
India,
Pakistan, and
Afghanistan, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
2021 Kabul airlift article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Weaveravel (
talk ·
contribs) seems to have moved discussion to the heading that started
2 September, boldly collapsing because it tripped up another editor and I.
Discuss-Dubious (
t/
c) 18:34, 6 September 2021 (UTC)
|
---|
It's a neutral and formal word, less vague than "evacuation", and doesn't exclude for example fleeing Afghans themvelves. (The only evacuation is by air from the airport, so "airlift" is perfect). Plus many major reliable media outlets are using the term airlift about this situation:
|
The infobox has it as 150,000 (while its reference that was published before the end of the operations said 114,000). The lede has a different reference that was published after the end of the operations with the number of 122,000. If there is no better references, we should then change the number in the infobox to 122,000. Z22 ( talk) 13:18, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
Should the Taliban be included in the executed by list as we already in the body of the article has multiple sources mentioning what was effectively active co-operation between them and foreign governments in getting citizens to the airport and maintaining order outside of it? Apache287 ( talk) 15:56, 1 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Kabul Airlift (2021). – wbm1058 ( talk) 21:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
2021 evacuation from Afghanistan → Kabul airlift – (or 2021 Kabul airlift with the year). It's a neutral and formal word, less vague than "evacuation", and doesn't exclude for example Afghan civilians at the airport themvelves. This event is an airlift and evacuation only done by air, so it's perfect; other Afghans fleeing by land are not part of the "evacuation", hence this is strictly an airlift). Plus a large number of major reliable media outlets are using the term airlift about this situation, for example:
When you have all of these well known media using airlift, there is no doubt whatsoever that it is also the WP:COMMONNAME. It is also much simpler than the long "2021 evacuation from Afghanistan" -- WR 16:41, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
This page should stay at the original title because the journalists which WP's reliability rules are most attuned to were focused on the high publicity events at Kabul Airport, which they could get much easier access to. Buckshot06 (talk) 17:35, 2 September 2021 (UTC)
References
As far as your argument that “evacuation” excluded Afghans goes, many sources use the term “evacuation” to describe Afghan civilians: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/09/02/afghan-evacuation-war-by-numbers/ https://www.fox10phoenix.com/news/first-evacuated-afghan-refugees-arrive-in-arizona-for-resettlement https://news.yahoo.com/afghan-refugees-arrive-dulles-airport-181000304.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/afghan-evacuees-resettlement-us/2021/09/01/c68b6a42-0b4e-11ec-a256-709238a1404d_story.html https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/a-delta-pilot-who-flew-an-evacuation-plane-ferrying-afghan-refugees-out-of-germany-is-the-son-of-a-holocaust-survivor-i-was-able-to-put-myself-in-their-position/ar-AANOzuw https://www.ithacajournal.com/story/news/2021/08/27/new-york-afghan-refugee-resettlement/5616129001/ https://mynorthwest.com/3110987/inslee-biden-letter-encourages-evacuation-efforts-afghanistan/ https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fort-mccoy-houses-around-3000-afghan-refugees-as-evacuation-ends/ar-AANUQUV https://people.com/politics/george-w-and-laura-bush-urge-evacuation-of-afghan-refugees/ https://www.itv.com/news/2021-08-26/afghan-refugees-land-at-heathrow-after-evacuation-im-so-happythank-you
If I pulled all the sources that say “evacuation” without “airlift”, it would overtake the sources that say “airlift”. As per Buckshot06, it’s a good idea to keep things open out of interest for coverage of land escapes. The US is reported to be planning to use land routes to allow people to escape. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/us-looking-at-land-routes-to-continue-afghanistan-evacuations/ar-AANZVLa Discuss-Dubious ( t/ c) 17:29, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
Is the discussion on move proposal closed? The page has been moved to a new title. Z22 ( talk) 17:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the infobox for this article should change to Template:Infobox military conflict. I have tried to do it myself to no avail. The reason for this is that a) there were opponents to this operation from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant – Khorasan Province and b) this event is regularly compared to Operation Frequent Wind which uses an infobox military conflict. ElderZamzam ( talk) 02:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
"Evacuation" is for a dozen people. "Exodus" is more appropriate to describe this reality.-- 2601:C4:C380:49E0:55AA:1FCB:5D12:C5D7 ( talk) 14:02, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Source https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/28/asia/afghanistan-us-airstrike-evacuation-mission-intl/index.html also The New York Times on Youtube have a Visual Investigations video which can be referenced.
157.41.135.102 ( talk) 11:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page Moved to 2021 Kabul airlift per consensus. ( non-admin closure) signed, Iflaq (talk) 05:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
2021 Kabul Airlift →
2021 Kabul airlift – Excessive capitalization. The previous move closed at
Kabul Airlift (2021), with "Kabul Airlift" a proper noun. As "2021 Kabul Airlift", "airlift" is a descriptive word and not a proper noun.
User:力 (power~enwiki,
π,
ν) 20:09, 19 October 2021 (UTC)
The article is mostly a day ba day account. It needs a final balance of all nations involved:
-- 2A02:8109:BD40:65C4:0:0:0:8E6F ( talk) 14:45, 28 January 2022 (UTC)
Not sure how to include this, its new information
Thanks
John Cummings ( talk) 13:49, 25 April 2023 (UTC)