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Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
With this RfC, I’m hoping we can resolve the issue of infobox inclusion criteria, which remain hotly debated for this and other primary elections, such as the
Republican primaries. Multiple RfCs on this page were closed inconclusively. With no consensus, editors continue to
boldly change included candidates on this and related pages for individual contests. Now that the primaries are nearing their conclusion, I believe there is more information with which to compare this year’s elections to past ones, and a consequently higher chance of closing an RfC conclusively. The most recent discussion on this page occurred at
#Infobox (Part II). —
Tartan357 (
Talk) 08:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Which of the following criteria should be used to determine which candidates are to be included in [the] infoboxes on United States presidential primary election pages, including those for ongoing elections?
— Tartan357 ( Talk) 08:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Note that this question is about the main page only, rather than individual contest pages. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 20:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
A - since delegates are what's required for nomination. GoodDay ( talk) 15:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
A, if a candidate has won delegates, than that is automatically pertinent information worthy of inclusion in the infobox. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 00:26, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A and B: I have previously offered my opinion that the infobox should feature those who have had significant coverage of electoral victories. By that criteria, I'd exclude any who did not win any delegates, as well as those who only won a handful of delegates. But when it comes right down to it, with Biden having now clinched the nomination according to most sources, for myself, I am far less concerned than I would have been weeks or months ago about the extent of the criteria for inclusion in the infobox. Just my two cents here, for what they may be worth to anyone. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 23:45, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A — In line with what GoodDay said, having at least one delegate is what qualifies a candidate for representation at the national convention. Adding criteria devised by Wikipedia editors beyond that for the national summary would not be neutral. Humanengr ( talk) 04:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
A — Based on the same reasoning used by Devonian Wombat and Humanengr. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 07:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
[i]n accordance with our former standards. For past elections we have included candidates who have failed to win a race but received over 5% of the vote, or who have won a significant number of delegates. Have a look at 2000 Democratic Party presidential primaries or 2008 Republican Party presidential primaries as examples. There are many others out there. Using C as the guideline would be a departure from our usual standards, not in keeping with it.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 02:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
After a caucus or primary, should candidates only be included in the infoboxes of primary and caucus articles if they have won delegates in that contest?. The closer wrote
Participants rejected the proposal in part B as written. The voting was 7 for yes and 11 for no. However, a large number of voters (11) qualified their response by suggesting the criterion should be 5% of popular vote or a delegate. In my judgement (although this is too messy to be completely certain) there is consensus for part B with the addition of candidates that receive 5% of the vote.There were 22 votes in toto.
Proposing other option - The candidate has won a contest, received >5% of the popular vote or received a significant number of delegates (say 40 out of 3,979). We have a long standing consensus to include candidates that receive >5% of the vote. We have also long included candidates who win a primary/caucus (this is also helpful given the map in the infobox). In any event, I do not think we should have more than six candidates in the infobox. I think Gabbard receiving 2 delegates and less than 1% of the vote is not significant and she should not be included. I also think Klobuchar has also done little to warrant inclusion (her 7 delegates and 1.63% of the vote at this stage), but am fine keeping whomever is sixth in delegates in the infobox. I am also okay leaving her out. If she is selected as the democratic vice-presidential nominee that would be a factor in her favour. If not, I am fine with leaving her in or out. Hope this fourth RfC on this issue will lay this to rest, it is beyond frustrating that we are still holding RfCs on this issue.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 16:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Collapsing discussion with sockpuppet
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@ Smith0124:@ Darryl Kerrigan: Both of you, please rein it in. I’m doing my best here. We had a discussion about this a while back and I compromised with you on removing Gabbard. You suggested I open my own RfC, which I’ve done in the most neutral, concise way I can. I’m remaining civil. You are not. Darryl, you speak of the “need to bat people down hard” and complain about the lack of a consensus; yet, you are unwilling to engage in a constructive discussion. Smith, you’ve behaved hostilely towards myself and GoodDay. Both of you seem intent on dragging this on indefinitely without making any compromises. Start your own RfCs if you hate mine so much. But give other editors a chance to respond without being shouted down. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 21:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Resolved argument potentially distracting from RfC
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So Tartan357 has taken upon themselves to remove my option and alter my vote. I have changed this back. One of the issues with the last close was that the closer didn't want to try to wade through what "OTHER" meant. Lets try to be specific and avoid a fifth RfC. Thanks-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 17:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I am more than a little frustrated and hostile about this process now. Depite reaching a consensus on the sub-pages that consensus is not being respected. Beyond frustrating. I do not think we should tolerate that. I appreciate you trying to bring this to a close, but I think we are repeating some of the errors that lead us to no consensus in the RfC about the main page. Option C would remove Warren from the infobox despite her having more votes than Bloomberg and Budidegeg. That is a problem. Option B would remove Budidegeg and potentially Bloomberg despite the fact that they won contests. That is also a problem. Option A would leave candidates in that won 2-7 delegates our of nearly 4000, and leave the infobox overly bloated. I also see that as a problem. I don't disagree with your framing to be difficult. I do so because I don't think it properly frames the options and the sentiment coming out of our history of elections, the last two RfCs or the participant discussion. I hope you view that explanation as intended: constructively.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk)
I'm assuming that all disputees are satisfied with the Rfc, now? GoodDay ( talk) 23:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
|
As
Davemoth wrote in his
summary of the
Two-part RfC, "[That RfC] would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article."
Commenters praised the summarizer for his efforts and none objected.
A close reading of the votes on that first RfC finds there were 15 votes in favor of "either 5% of the popular vote or a delegate"*, 4 votes for "delegate only", 2 for "5% of the popular vote only", and 1 for "top 6 by delegate count". There was nearly unanimous agreement — 19 votes out of 22 — to include all candidates who had a delegate.
At a minimum, those votes should be added to those here in favor of Option A.
Given the overwhelming vote in the first RfC, I am restoring the infobox to include all candidates who won 'a delegate -or- more than 5% of the popular vote'. Humanengr ( talk) 23:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Scope: The initial scope of this as noted by the submitter was that the guideline would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article.
'Out of Scope:' The following were not presented and did not receive any significant discussion:
*The 2nd Rfc Talk:2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries#Rfc_regarding_the_2020_Democratic_presidential_primaries_infobox_template would apply to only the main article and the Infobox Template. My assumption is that Option C would accept the findings of this RfC as the new status quo to "keep as is" for the main article (while individual primary and caucus articles would follow this RfC.)
Re your "In the initial days of the first RfC (started by Davemoth) it is correct that he said he intended it to apply to both the main article and the sub-articles."
[emphasis added]:
"The initial scope of this as noted by the submitter was that the guideline would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article.") on March 10 — 6 days after the last vote was cast in that first RfC. That's not 'initial days'.
Re your "The second RfC ran roughly the same time as the first (created by Davemoth)."
[emphasis added]: That is similarly wrong and misleading. The
2nd RfC did not begin until March 4 (one day after it was reported that Gabbard earned her first delegate) by Smith — a sockpuppet of a banned user — with the unsupported premise "Previously, there was an Rfc about state pages"
. 'Roughly the same time' — you mean that the votes in one occurred entirely before the votes in the other?
Re your "While he said that his initial intention was that his RfC deal with both the main page and sub-pages, I believe this changed before it was closed."
[emphasis added]: What are you claiming was changed? by whom? when?
Re your "In any event, the
participant discussion seems to me to accord with my understanding that 'at some point' it was largely accepted that we needed a different standard for the main article and sub-pages (or at least it needed to be settled in different discussions)"
[emphasis added]: "At some point' — when? 'Largely accepted' — by whom? What specifically do you see in the '
participant discussion' you linked that 'accords with' your understanding?
Re your "Given this understanding which existed as the RfCs were running, I think the closer should be focusing on the second RfC (started by Smith), not the first one (started by Davemoth) when closing this RfC."
You have provided no support for the first boldface text. You have expressed preference (in the second boldface) to use an RfC created by a user whose
later RfC was
closed by
S Marshall as "This isn't a good faith RfC: it's disruptive sockpuppetry. I am unilaterally delisting and closing it."
? By a sockpuppet of a banned user? An RfC with an unsupported premise?
Re your "Unfortunately, multiple RfCs and discussions have made closing this much harder."
: I count two RfC's by a sockpuppet of a banned user. As for discussions, I see one opened by you that begins with Well, since the RfC concerning the infobox here has now been closed without any consensus.
and which ignores the 1st RfC.
Re your "Jeeze in linking this I found another "RfC" Smith opened on the topic which was archived without being closed, and which I had forgot about."
: More fully, the one that was closed as "This isn't a good faith RfC; it's disruptive sockpuppetry."
.
Re your "What a mess."
: Agree.
Humanengr ( talk) 21:50, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
The 2nd Rfc would apply to only the main article and the Infobox Template. My assumption is that Option C [Keep as is] would accept the findings of this RfC as the new status quo to "keep as is" for the main article (while individual primary and caucus articles would follow this RfC.. If memory serves Davemoth didn't just propose that out of the blue then, there were other discussions that the first RfC would deal with the sub-pages and the second with the main page. Sorry, I can't do better then "at some point" until I spend some time, digging up the actual discussions. Shifting gears, concerning my comment that from the Infobox (Part II) discussion that
Well, since the RfC concerning the infobox here has now been closed without any consensus...referred to the RfC about the main page infobox and the second RfC (which at least some editors and in the participant discussion was agreed was the one that applied to the main article), which was clearly closed with "impossible to determine consensus". Your quote of me from the Infobox (Part II) discussion was solely about the main page infobox (not the sub-pages). Now, the fact that Smith started the second RfC and many editors seem to have accepted that the MrX RfC was limited to the sub-pages, means that ignoring the second RfC which explicitly applied to the main page is problematic. Reasonable folks, could as you have done, suggest that the first RfC should also apply to the main page, but I don't think that permits us to completely ignore the comments and votes in the second which was clearly about this page. Furthermore, as a technical point the consensus that was reached in Part B of the MrX RfC only applies after the primary is over, so reasonable folks could disagree whether having a "presumptive" nominee means it is over, or it needs to actually be over. Anyway, thank you for correcting me about MrX. I will see if I can locate some of the specific discussions that gave rise to the acceptance in the participant discussion that there was one RfC for the sub-articles and one for the main page.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 22:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
@
Humanengr:, I am concerned about ignoring the votes of others in
the second RfC, that said it was mostly a scratch. The most prudent thing may be to just do what you suggest: apply A to the main page (or A plus 5% per SpinningSpark's close). Archive all of these RfCs, participant discussions and other discussions and if really necessary someone can start fresh with a new RfC clearly around the time of the convention (if they really want to). While that is not my favoured option, there is value in wiping the slate clean and starting fresh.
For what it is worth, if you go to my note comment at 22:51 on 4 March 2020 in the
first/MrX RfC, you can see that there seems to have been some edit warring happening, and I told folks to discuss it in the RfC. Then I note shortly below I note that Smith is talking about starting a second RfC (about the template, the infobox used on the main page). That discussion seems to be
this one that occured on the talk page for the infobox template. That seems to be the origin of the second RfC. Despite the fact that MrX's RfC was happening, there were several discussions that kept popping up on the template page, for example
here and
here. There were also some happening here including
this one. Smith's behaviour was disruptive, but there were many folks popping up on the template page and here calling for removal of certain candidates specifically on for the main page. Anyway, that seems to be the backdrop, not sure that helps us though.--
Darryl Kerrigan (
talk) 00:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
"Archive all of these RfCs, participant discussions and other discussions". And thank you for providing the links to that other background. Humanengr ( talk) 00:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Oddball opinion here: any of the following should qualify: "5% of vote", "won a contest", or "more than half of voteshare of someone else who qualifies". In the 2008 primaries, Edwards, while winning delegates in the beginning, was largely irrelevant and unmentioned. Whereas, in a race with more candidates like 2020, candidates who ended up doing just as badly are more relevant. It would make no sense to not include Buttigieg, given that he won Iowa - and by the same token Kloubuchar, who did a bit more than half as well as him in the popular vote - and therefore, Gabbard should be included too. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 07:00, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
There should be a row for running mates in the table and the infobox: Biden's running mate is Kamala Harris and Sanders' running mate was (apparently) Nina Turner. Should they be listed in the table and infobox?
This
edit request to
2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change 'the 2018 midterm elections' to "the 2020 democratic primaries". It's disingenuous to say the democratic party, or in this case senate democrats for some reason, moved to the left between 2016 and 2018 then imply that's the reason why they won the 2018 primaries in the house (instead of democrats supporting preexisting conditions and opposing 'tax cuts for the rich' which actual were cited as the reason most people said they voted democrat). Also a lot of, if not the majority of, the leftward lurch in the democratic party happened between 2018 and 2020 so I don't know why it be portrayed as something that happened between 2016 and 2018 then presumably stagnated. NiftyMouse ( talk) 06:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
What is the policy on candidates that have made the ballot in at least one state but aren't already up there? In New Hampshire, there were several dozen candidates in both primaries. Royal Autumn Crest ( talk) 22:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
It's usually natural to only put candidates that garnered 5% of the vote on the infobox, so I'm wondering if we should remove anyone who didn't make it above the 5% line. Does anyone else have thoughts on the matter? Cavejohnson13 ( talk) 22:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Didn't realize it was mentioned above, but the topic seemed old and can someone else clarify if we are going to list all the same candidates? Thanks! Cavejohnson13 ( talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
I have found a superior photograph of Patrick taken the same day as the one we are currently using. File:Deval Patrick (25234550596) (1).jpg. I propose we utilize this one instead. Any thoughts? SecretName101 ( talk) 17:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The conversation on this topic has fizzled out previous times this was brought up. However, now the primary is long over, so now we're writing of history.
The removal of the two candidates for a past primary is justified based off of the established precedent. For example, in the page for the 2016 Republican Party presidential primaries, five candidates who received between 1 and 9 delegates ( B. Carson, J. Bush, R. Paul, M. Huckabee, and C. Fiorina) are not included. That doesn't mean that their campaigns or themselves weren't significant, they just didn't cross the threshold for inclusion in the infobox.
The standard on every other presidential primary page has been either (a) 5% of popular vote (b) 5% of delegates (c) 1 contest win, or (d) the only significant opposition (e.g. Bill Weld in the 2020 Republican Party presidential primaries). Gabbard and Klobuchar do not reach any 4 of the criteria, and therefore should be removed from the infobox now that the primary is over. PS, I was a Gabbard supporter, so miss me with any accusation of bias; I'm just being consistent with the previously established standards. Curbon7 ( talk) 02:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I request that the content in the "Timeline" section be split into a new article Timeline of the 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
I have an idea on how to improve the candidate section:
User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm editing Joe Sestak's home state to be Virginia, where he appears to have lived during the entire campaign. Additionally, his campaign's filings for the New Hampshire primary seems to confirm Virginia residency.
What I am more conflicted on and currently not changing is Marianne Williamson's residency. She moved to Iowa during the campaign, as Chris Dodd did in 2008. In the NH ballot registration I have previously linked, she also gives her home state as Iowa but uses a commercial address in California. I have no clue if she still resides there.
I am pretty conflicted about what is best to do regarding this second case. There is also no precedent, as the 2008 primary page excludes home states entirely. I am curious if anyone else who cares enough to read three paragraphs about extremely minor details on a dead page has any input. U-dble ( talk) 02:04, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Michael E. Arth 2020 presidential campaign and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Michael E. Arth 2020 presidential campaign until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay 💬 18:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Article states "After Biden won South Carolina, and one day before the Super Tuesday primaries, several moderate candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden in what was viewed as a consolidation of the party's moderate wing; this has also been characterized as an active effort by the establishment of the Democratic Party in a last minute effort to prevent Sanders, who was clearly on track to win at least a plurality, if not a majority, of the necessary delegates required to clinch the nomination. Many have speculated that, had the other moderates not dropped out, Sanders would have gained an insurmountable lead on Super Tuesday; this speculation is backed by polling data in all of the Super Tuesday states before the moderates consolidated, which saw Sanders leading in a majority of the states."
This is clear editorializing, and the editor who wrote this opines based on the relevant facts of the article they cite. It is true that moderate candidates dropping out and endorsing Biden was a consolidation of the party's moderate candidates. However, the idea that Sanders would have gained an insurmountable lead, that there was some quid pro quo by the establishment to stop Sanders (see: "an active effort by the establishment of the Democratic Party in a last minute effort to prevent Sanders"), or that Bernie "was clearly on track to win at least a plurality, if not a majority, of the necessary delegates required to clinch the nomination" is very, very speculative. It also presents the moderate consolidation as an evil establishment conspiracy rather than a simple ideological consolidation (in which other moderate candidates viewed Biden as "electable" and wanted Democratic unity going into the general).
Readers deserve factual articles, not just speculation that represents the opinions of one Wikipedia editor. Cannibalcrayon ( talk) 00:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This discussion has been disrupted by
block evasion,
ban evasion, or
sockpuppetry from the following user:
Comments from this user should be excluded from assessments of consensus. |
With this RfC, I’m hoping we can resolve the issue of infobox inclusion criteria, which remain hotly debated for this and other primary elections, such as the
Republican primaries. Multiple RfCs on this page were closed inconclusively. With no consensus, editors continue to
boldly change included candidates on this and related pages for individual contests. Now that the primaries are nearing their conclusion, I believe there is more information with which to compare this year’s elections to past ones, and a consequently higher chance of closing an RfC conclusively. The most recent discussion on this page occurred at
#Infobox (Part II). —
Tartan357 (
Talk) 08:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Which of the following criteria should be used to determine which candidates are to be included in [the] infoboxes on United States presidential primary election pages, including those for ongoing elections?
— Tartan357 ( Talk) 08:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Note that this question is about the main page only, rather than individual contest pages. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 20:38, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
A - since delegates are what's required for nomination. GoodDay ( talk) 15:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
A, if a candidate has won delegates, than that is automatically pertinent information worthy of inclusion in the infobox. Devonian Wombat ( talk) 00:26, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A and B: I have previously offered my opinion that the infobox should feature those who have had significant coverage of electoral victories. By that criteria, I'd exclude any who did not win any delegates, as well as those who only won a handful of delegates. But when it comes right down to it, with Biden having now clinched the nomination according to most sources, for myself, I am far less concerned than I would have been weeks or months ago about the extent of the criteria for inclusion in the infobox. Just my two cents here, for what they may be worth to anyone. -- Jgstokes ( talk) 23:45, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
A — In line with what GoodDay said, having at least one delegate is what qualifies a candidate for representation at the national convention. Adding criteria devised by Wikipedia editors beyond that for the national summary would not be neutral. Humanengr ( talk) 04:12, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
A — Based on the same reasoning used by Devonian Wombat and Humanengr. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 07:51, 9 June 2020 (UTC)
[i]n accordance with our former standards. For past elections we have included candidates who have failed to win a race but received over 5% of the vote, or who have won a significant number of delegates. Have a look at 2000 Democratic Party presidential primaries or 2008 Republican Party presidential primaries as examples. There are many others out there. Using C as the guideline would be a departure from our usual standards, not in keeping with it.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 02:01, 16 August 2020 (UTC)
After a caucus or primary, should candidates only be included in the infoboxes of primary and caucus articles if they have won delegates in that contest?. The closer wrote
Participants rejected the proposal in part B as written. The voting was 7 for yes and 11 for no. However, a large number of voters (11) qualified their response by suggesting the criterion should be 5% of popular vote or a delegate. In my judgement (although this is too messy to be completely certain) there is consensus for part B with the addition of candidates that receive 5% of the vote.There were 22 votes in toto.
Proposing other option - The candidate has won a contest, received >5% of the popular vote or received a significant number of delegates (say 40 out of 3,979). We have a long standing consensus to include candidates that receive >5% of the vote. We have also long included candidates who win a primary/caucus (this is also helpful given the map in the infobox). In any event, I do not think we should have more than six candidates in the infobox. I think Gabbard receiving 2 delegates and less than 1% of the vote is not significant and she should not be included. I also think Klobuchar has also done little to warrant inclusion (her 7 delegates and 1.63% of the vote at this stage), but am fine keeping whomever is sixth in delegates in the infobox. I am also okay leaving her out. If she is selected as the democratic vice-presidential nominee that would be a factor in her favour. If not, I am fine with leaving her in or out. Hope this fourth RfC on this issue will lay this to rest, it is beyond frustrating that we are still holding RfCs on this issue.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 16:50, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Collapsing discussion with sockpuppet
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@ Smith0124:@ Darryl Kerrigan: Both of you, please rein it in. I’m doing my best here. We had a discussion about this a while back and I compromised with you on removing Gabbard. You suggested I open my own RfC, which I’ve done in the most neutral, concise way I can. I’m remaining civil. You are not. Darryl, you speak of the “need to bat people down hard” and complain about the lack of a consensus; yet, you are unwilling to engage in a constructive discussion. Smith, you’ve behaved hostilely towards myself and GoodDay. Both of you seem intent on dragging this on indefinitely without making any compromises. Start your own RfCs if you hate mine so much. But give other editors a chance to respond without being shouted down. — Tartan357 ( Talk) 21:07, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
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Resolved argument potentially distracting from RfC
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So Tartan357 has taken upon themselves to remove my option and alter my vote. I have changed this back. One of the issues with the last close was that the closer didn't want to try to wade through what "OTHER" meant. Lets try to be specific and avoid a fifth RfC. Thanks-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 17:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Sorry, I am more than a little frustrated and hostile about this process now. Depite reaching a consensus on the sub-pages that consensus is not being respected. Beyond frustrating. I do not think we should tolerate that. I appreciate you trying to bring this to a close, but I think we are repeating some of the errors that lead us to no consensus in the RfC about the main page. Option C would remove Warren from the infobox despite her having more votes than Bloomberg and Budidegeg. That is a problem. Option B would remove Budidegeg and potentially Bloomberg despite the fact that they won contests. That is also a problem. Option A would leave candidates in that won 2-7 delegates our of nearly 4000, and leave the infobox overly bloated. I also see that as a problem. I don't disagree with your framing to be difficult. I do so because I don't think it properly frames the options and the sentiment coming out of our history of elections, the last two RfCs or the participant discussion. I hope you view that explanation as intended: constructively.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk)
I'm assuming that all disputees are satisfied with the Rfc, now? GoodDay ( talk) 23:13, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
|
As
Davemoth wrote in his
summary of the
Two-part RfC, "[That RfC] would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article."
Commenters praised the summarizer for his efforts and none objected.
A close reading of the votes on that first RfC finds there were 15 votes in favor of "either 5% of the popular vote or a delegate"*, 4 votes for "delegate only", 2 for "5% of the popular vote only", and 1 for "top 6 by delegate count". There was nearly unanimous agreement — 19 votes out of 22 — to include all candidates who had a delegate.
At a minimum, those votes should be added to those here in favor of Option A.
Given the overwhelming vote in the first RfC, I am restoring the infobox to include all candidates who won 'a delegate -or- more than 5% of the popular vote'. Humanengr ( talk) 23:08, 14 June 2020 (UTC)
Scope: The initial scope of this as noted by the submitter was that the guideline would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article.
'Out of Scope:' The following were not presented and did not receive any significant discussion:
*The 2nd Rfc Talk:2020_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries#Rfc_regarding_the_2020_Democratic_presidential_primaries_infobox_template would apply to only the main article and the Infobox Template. My assumption is that Option C would accept the findings of this RfC as the new status quo to "keep as is" for the main article (while individual primary and caucus articles would follow this RfC.)
Re your "In the initial days of the first RfC (started by Davemoth) it is correct that he said he intended it to apply to both the main article and the sub-articles."
[emphasis added]:
"The initial scope of this as noted by the submitter was that the guideline would apply to the individual primary and caucus articles, as well as this main article.") on March 10 — 6 days after the last vote was cast in that first RfC. That's not 'initial days'.
Re your "The second RfC ran roughly the same time as the first (created by Davemoth)."
[emphasis added]: That is similarly wrong and misleading. The
2nd RfC did not begin until March 4 (one day after it was reported that Gabbard earned her first delegate) by Smith — a sockpuppet of a banned user — with the unsupported premise "Previously, there was an Rfc about state pages"
. 'Roughly the same time' — you mean that the votes in one occurred entirely before the votes in the other?
Re your "While he said that his initial intention was that his RfC deal with both the main page and sub-pages, I believe this changed before it was closed."
[emphasis added]: What are you claiming was changed? by whom? when?
Re your "In any event, the
participant discussion seems to me to accord with my understanding that 'at some point' it was largely accepted that we needed a different standard for the main article and sub-pages (or at least it needed to be settled in different discussions)"
[emphasis added]: "At some point' — when? 'Largely accepted' — by whom? What specifically do you see in the '
participant discussion' you linked that 'accords with' your understanding?
Re your "Given this understanding which existed as the RfCs were running, I think the closer should be focusing on the second RfC (started by Smith), not the first one (started by Davemoth) when closing this RfC."
You have provided no support for the first boldface text. You have expressed preference (in the second boldface) to use an RfC created by a user whose
later RfC was
closed by
S Marshall as "This isn't a good faith RfC: it's disruptive sockpuppetry. I am unilaterally delisting and closing it."
? By a sockpuppet of a banned user? An RfC with an unsupported premise?
Re your "Unfortunately, multiple RfCs and discussions have made closing this much harder."
: I count two RfC's by a sockpuppet of a banned user. As for discussions, I see one opened by you that begins with Well, since the RfC concerning the infobox here has now been closed without any consensus.
and which ignores the 1st RfC.
Re your "Jeeze in linking this I found another "RfC" Smith opened on the topic which was archived without being closed, and which I had forgot about."
: More fully, the one that was closed as "This isn't a good faith RfC; it's disruptive sockpuppetry."
.
Re your "What a mess."
: Agree.
Humanengr ( talk) 21:50, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
The 2nd Rfc would apply to only the main article and the Infobox Template. My assumption is that Option C [Keep as is] would accept the findings of this RfC as the new status quo to "keep as is" for the main article (while individual primary and caucus articles would follow this RfC.. If memory serves Davemoth didn't just propose that out of the blue then, there were other discussions that the first RfC would deal with the sub-pages and the second with the main page. Sorry, I can't do better then "at some point" until I spend some time, digging up the actual discussions. Shifting gears, concerning my comment that from the Infobox (Part II) discussion that
Well, since the RfC concerning the infobox here has now been closed without any consensus...referred to the RfC about the main page infobox and the second RfC (which at least some editors and in the participant discussion was agreed was the one that applied to the main article), which was clearly closed with "impossible to determine consensus". Your quote of me from the Infobox (Part II) discussion was solely about the main page infobox (not the sub-pages). Now, the fact that Smith started the second RfC and many editors seem to have accepted that the MrX RfC was limited to the sub-pages, means that ignoring the second RfC which explicitly applied to the main page is problematic. Reasonable folks, could as you have done, suggest that the first RfC should also apply to the main page, but I don't think that permits us to completely ignore the comments and votes in the second which was clearly about this page. Furthermore, as a technical point the consensus that was reached in Part B of the MrX RfC only applies after the primary is over, so reasonable folks could disagree whether having a "presumptive" nominee means it is over, or it needs to actually be over. Anyway, thank you for correcting me about MrX. I will see if I can locate some of the specific discussions that gave rise to the acceptance in the participant discussion that there was one RfC for the sub-articles and one for the main page.-- Darryl Kerrigan ( talk) 22:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
@
Humanengr:, I am concerned about ignoring the votes of others in
the second RfC, that said it was mostly a scratch. The most prudent thing may be to just do what you suggest: apply A to the main page (or A plus 5% per SpinningSpark's close). Archive all of these RfCs, participant discussions and other discussions and if really necessary someone can start fresh with a new RfC clearly around the time of the convention (if they really want to). While that is not my favoured option, there is value in wiping the slate clean and starting fresh.
For what it is worth, if you go to my note comment at 22:51 on 4 March 2020 in the
first/MrX RfC, you can see that there seems to have been some edit warring happening, and I told folks to discuss it in the RfC. Then I note shortly below I note that Smith is talking about starting a second RfC (about the template, the infobox used on the main page). That discussion seems to be
this one that occured on the talk page for the infobox template. That seems to be the origin of the second RfC. Despite the fact that MrX's RfC was happening, there were several discussions that kept popping up on the template page, for example
here and
here. There were also some happening here including
this one. Smith's behaviour was disruptive, but there were many folks popping up on the template page and here calling for removal of certain candidates specifically on for the main page. Anyway, that seems to be the backdrop, not sure that helps us though.--
Darryl Kerrigan (
talk) 00:07, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
"Archive all of these RfCs, participant discussions and other discussions". And thank you for providing the links to that other background. Humanengr ( talk) 00:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
Oddball opinion here: any of the following should qualify: "5% of vote", "won a contest", or "more than half of voteshare of someone else who qualifies". In the 2008 primaries, Edwards, while winning delegates in the beginning, was largely irrelevant and unmentioned. Whereas, in a race with more candidates like 2020, candidates who ended up doing just as badly are more relevant. It would make no sense to not include Buttigieg, given that he won Iowa - and by the same token Kloubuchar, who did a bit more than half as well as him in the popular vote - and therefore, Gabbard should be included too. Elliot321 ( talk | contribs) 07:00, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
There should be a row for running mates in the table and the infobox: Biden's running mate is Kamala Harris and Sanders' running mate was (apparently) Nina Turner. Should they be listed in the table and infobox?
This
edit request to
2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change 'the 2018 midterm elections' to "the 2020 democratic primaries". It's disingenuous to say the democratic party, or in this case senate democrats for some reason, moved to the left between 2016 and 2018 then imply that's the reason why they won the 2018 primaries in the house (instead of democrats supporting preexisting conditions and opposing 'tax cuts for the rich' which actual were cited as the reason most people said they voted democrat). Also a lot of, if not the majority of, the leftward lurch in the democratic party happened between 2018 and 2020 so I don't know why it be portrayed as something that happened between 2016 and 2018 then presumably stagnated. NiftyMouse ( talk) 06:31, 6 December 2020 (UTC)
What is the policy on candidates that have made the ballot in at least one state but aren't already up there? In New Hampshire, there were several dozen candidates in both primaries. Royal Autumn Crest ( talk) 22:06, 17 December 2020 (UTC)
It's usually natural to only put candidates that garnered 5% of the vote on the infobox, so I'm wondering if we should remove anyone who didn't make it above the 5% line. Does anyone else have thoughts on the matter? Cavejohnson13 ( talk) 22:16, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
Didn't realize it was mentioned above, but the topic seemed old and can someone else clarify if we are going to list all the same candidates? Thanks! Cavejohnson13 ( talk) 22:18, 12 December 2020 (UTC)
I have found a superior photograph of Patrick taken the same day as the one we are currently using. File:Deval Patrick (25234550596) (1).jpg. I propose we utilize this one instead. Any thoughts? SecretName101 ( talk) 17:21, 27 April 2021 (UTC)
The conversation on this topic has fizzled out previous times this was brought up. However, now the primary is long over, so now we're writing of history.
The removal of the two candidates for a past primary is justified based off of the established precedent. For example, in the page for the 2016 Republican Party presidential primaries, five candidates who received between 1 and 9 delegates ( B. Carson, J. Bush, R. Paul, M. Huckabee, and C. Fiorina) are not included. That doesn't mean that their campaigns or themselves weren't significant, they just didn't cross the threshold for inclusion in the infobox.
The standard on every other presidential primary page has been either (a) 5% of popular vote (b) 5% of delegates (c) 1 contest win, or (d) the only significant opposition (e.g. Bill Weld in the 2020 Republican Party presidential primaries). Gabbard and Klobuchar do not reach any 4 of the criteria, and therefore should be removed from the infobox now that the primary is over. PS, I was a Gabbard supporter, so miss me with any accusation of bias; I'm just being consistent with the previously established standards. Curbon7 ( talk) 02:52, 22 April 2021 (UTC)
I request that the content in the "Timeline" section be split into a new article Timeline of the 2020 Democratic Party presidential primaries. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 20:19, 17 August 2021 (UTC)
I have an idea on how to improve the candidate section:
User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:59, 14 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm editing Joe Sestak's home state to be Virginia, where he appears to have lived during the entire campaign. Additionally, his campaign's filings for the New Hampshire primary seems to confirm Virginia residency.
What I am more conflicted on and currently not changing is Marianne Williamson's residency. She moved to Iowa during the campaign, as Chris Dodd did in 2008. In the NH ballot registration I have previously linked, she also gives her home state as Iowa but uses a commercial address in California. I have no clue if she still resides there.
I am pretty conflicted about what is best to do regarding this second case. There is also no precedent, as the 2008 primary page excludes home states entirely. I am curious if anyone else who cares enough to read three paragraphs about extremely minor details on a dead page has any input. U-dble ( talk) 02:04, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Michael E. Arth 2020 presidential campaign and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 4#Michael E. Arth 2020 presidential campaign until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Jay 💬 18:37, 4 October 2022 (UTC)
Article states "After Biden won South Carolina, and one day before the Super Tuesday primaries, several moderate candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed Biden in what was viewed as a consolidation of the party's moderate wing; this has also been characterized as an active effort by the establishment of the Democratic Party in a last minute effort to prevent Sanders, who was clearly on track to win at least a plurality, if not a majority, of the necessary delegates required to clinch the nomination. Many have speculated that, had the other moderates not dropped out, Sanders would have gained an insurmountable lead on Super Tuesday; this speculation is backed by polling data in all of the Super Tuesday states before the moderates consolidated, which saw Sanders leading in a majority of the states."
This is clear editorializing, and the editor who wrote this opines based on the relevant facts of the article they cite. It is true that moderate candidates dropping out and endorsing Biden was a consolidation of the party's moderate candidates. However, the idea that Sanders would have gained an insurmountable lead, that there was some quid pro quo by the establishment to stop Sanders (see: "an active effort by the establishment of the Democratic Party in a last minute effort to prevent Sanders"), or that Bernie "was clearly on track to win at least a plurality, if not a majority, of the necessary delegates required to clinch the nomination" is very, very speculative. It also presents the moderate consolidation as an evil establishment conspiracy rather than a simple ideological consolidation (in which other moderate candidates viewed Biden as "electable" and wanted Democratic unity going into the general).
Readers deserve factual articles, not just speculation that represents the opinions of one Wikipedia editor. Cannibalcrayon ( talk) 00:49, 5 February 2023 (UTC)