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I mean realy - massacre? A sad event, true, and I can see how in western eyes this will lok as a massacare, but this is just another terror attack in Jerusalem. If we start labeling them all as 'massacres' we'll hve to think on something new to describe some realy shocking ones. Again, this attack is shocking - but I rather think it's have to be something more to get such a label.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.130.249.69 ( talk • contribs)
It is a MASSACRE...wiktionary defines massacre as: The intentional killing of a considerable number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people. Sounds like this matches the description. It was a massacre. What else would you call it? Why is it not a massacre? Please, Oh uneducated masses, tell me what a massacre is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.139.237 ( talk) 21:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
What's wrong with "school shooting as a form of terrorism"? 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 22:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
several things: 1) It's not specific to this incident 2) the nearly identical "Cave of the patriarchs Massacre" is called as a massacre by Wikipedia. 3) so is the Ma'alot massacre, another near-edenticl incident 4) so is the Avivim school bus massacre NOTE: these are both mass shooting of Israeli school students by Arab terrorists
I think we have to respect the precedents in Wikipedia and call this the Mercaz HaRav massacre. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 23:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Thomas Babbington.
Please give us your two cents regarding the proper name of this article (and perhaps also Mercaz HaRav). Once we work things out here, we can make one move to the proper name.
It seems to me that there are two issues. The first, rather small issue, is the question of which letters should be capitalized in merkaz harav (intentionally all in lower case). Second, is it a shooting, massacre, terrorist attack, etc? Or, from a totally different side, do we go with "2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack" or something of the sort? - Reuvenk T C 00:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The current title is very poor, in my opinion. This was a massacre of students in a yeshiva (a type of school or seminary) by a Palestinian terrorist, in Jerusalem, and yet none of these bolded words are in the title. At the very (very) least the word "massacre" should be in the title, but at least some of these other words should be as well. If someone searches for this article, those are the words they are going to use to try to find this -- as I did, and I was shocked to see what the title actually was. 6SJ7 ( talk) 09:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the discussion above, does anyone have any strong objection to Jerusalem yeshiva massacre, 2008 as a title? Alternatively, 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva massacre, which is probably more conventional, but I personally dislike the titles with the years at the beginning. I will leave the "terrorist" aspect for another day, but am proposing this compromise now so we can get this article un-move-protected and moved to a better title. 6SJ7 ( talk) 18:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The title is fine as it is. Noor Aalam ( talk) 21:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Propose Mercaz HaRav massacre. A lone gunman wielding a machine gun and emptying 500-600 bullets is not a shooting. There seems to be little consistancy or consensus about what constitutes the threshold between a shooting and a massacre. It seems that most massacres are termed shootings, though there are plenty of examples of school massacres being titled that way, even a whole category. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Baruch Goldstein shooting called the cave of the patriach's massacre? Is there a difference between Jewish and Muslim Blood? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.5.17.50 ( talk) 11:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The pressis calling ita massacre. Why is this discussion taking place in a vacuum, asthough wikipedia editors got to decide what an event iscalled. the press is calling ita massacre. We should, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.182.48 ( talk) 17:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Only five people were killed in the Boston Massacre... 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 22:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
We appear to have a concensus around Mercaz HaRav massacre Morningside Clio ( talk) 22:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Morningside Clio
I agree that Mercaz HaRav massacre is the best title. Reason is: the Boroch goldstein incident. that is a massacre according to Wikipedia. there is no important differnece between the two: man with a gun walks into building and starts murdering people who essentializes by presuming them to be his enemies. If you call that one a massacre, you have got to call this one a massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.33.150 ( talk) 23:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
WHAT IS A MASSACRE While there is no absolute definition of a massacre, the appelation necessarily connotes a particular horror, the sense that this is more horrible than most acts of murder. Usually, because teh dead were unarmed and had not offended the murderer by any action, except, of course, by being in some hated category. Thus, the victims of The Mountain Meadows Massacre (Mormons killing non-Mormons), or the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (an Israelis killing Arabs) offended only by being members of the "wrong" group.
That said, what makes one murder a massacre and another not a massacre is simply that people call one a massacre and another not. Here it is pertinent that some newspaper headlines are indeed calling this a massacre. Massacre fails to derail talks [1] Eight held in yeshiva massacre [2] Settlers vow revenge over Jerusalem massacre [3]
The Guardian, of London, is not a newspaper generally sympathetic to Israel. Yet their headline says Massacre. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 15:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Thomas Babbington
It looks pretty close to a concensus. Moreover, the argument that several similar incidents, especially the Hebron shooting are listed as massacres by Wikipedia seems compelling. I move that we change the name to "Mercaz HaRav Massacre" with whatever alternative names seem necessary going forward, especially as we see which name sthe press is using. Morningside Clio ( talk) 00:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Morningside Clio
This certainly looks like a concensus. both here and in the section above. Not unanimity, but certainly concensus. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Thomas Babbington
Can someone provide sources that refer to it as a massacre? I think the naming of the title should be based on the most prominent usage among the sources cited. Most I've seem refer to a shooting, but maybe I'm missing something? Tiamut talk 18:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
"
Needs to be merged with 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack. — Nightstallion 22:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel this edit removed information that helps explain irreconcilable news sources. Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 01:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
World net Daily is hardly a reliable source, esp. for saying that the attack was called "heroic" by Fatah-affiliated groups. This is claim raises a redflag.
If this is indeed true then the news are very significant and other (mainstream) news sources can be found on this. Bless sins ( talk) 13:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
As stated by most reputable news sites the father had been previously involved with Hamas. By ststing that his family is not invovled with any organizations you are misleading your readers. Thank you for your time and I hope this can be included within the article and if not just pull the family line out of your writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.204.72 ( talk) 20:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
There are now pictures up on commons. I got permission to use them and have fowarded the email to OTRS. Unfortunately, the photographer didn't include a Declaration of consent, so that could be a bit of a problem, we'll see. - Reuvenk T C 21:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
that image is quite disgusting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.252.89 ( talk) 16:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone fired guns and killed people in a school. What's so hard to understand about that? 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 21:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the point is that ashool shooting like columbine are caused by the personal problems of troubled individuals. this puts them in a differnet category thatn this shooting, which was apparently part of the ongoing Islamist jihad against Israel. George Bancroft ( talk) 01:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)George Bancroft
This is a difficult section. Obviously, it's all speculation. I'm sure we can find opinions in credible sources that characterize it variously as an act of a deranged psychopath, an attempt at genocide, etc., etc. I'm not comfortable only including those speculations that would seem - to some people at any rate - as legitimate political grievances. It might - perhaps inadvertently - provide some tacit moral justification for the murder. -- Leifern ( talk) 01:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Across divided Jerusalem, a day of grief The article has good info on the background of the gunman and the reaction in Israel. -- Shamir1 ( talk) 02:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
'Hundreds of Orthodox Jews gathered outside the building and chanted "we want revenge" and "death to Arabs."' This is simply not true. I watched the funeral on live TV. Cymruisrael ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Yuli Tamir, Israel's Education Minister, who made a condolence visit to the yeshiva two days after the shooting, was forced to leave after when she was verbally attacked by dozens of youths outside building, who called her a "murderer". She said: "This reminded me of the days before (former Prime Minister Yitzhak) Rabin's murder. It's unfortunate that that there is a public which cannot put limits form itself. I only came to pay my respect to the murdered, not to engage in politics."' Yuli Tamir is reminded of the days before Rabin's murder because she, exactly like Rabin, insisted on going uninvited to a place where she knew she would get a hostile reaction. Having incited the reaction, she then complains about it. Cymruisrael ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
On a separate note, why is the Academic subsection in the Reactions main section limited on the view of one person? This is clearly POV since only one side is represented; I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who think Arabs/Palestinians are inferior. If we can't get two contrasting reactions or at least a reaction from a pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian "philosopher" or academic then this subsection (which is almost entirely a single quote) should be totally removed. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 02:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I watched it live on TV is not a WP:Reliable source Nil Einne ( talk) 12:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I've added a red link for this, as it's unclear who is being referred to. I'm sure at one point this meant the Left Camp of Israel, and now is perhaps means Progressive List for Peace? I'd stub out a dab page, but I'm not really sure. I'd just be, er, winging it, no pun intended! -- Kendrick7 talk 16:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd really like to see a source on this, rather than what an editor is transcribing from memory. [7] Even with a source, I don't believe this woman has the theological expertise to make such judgments about the status of the Ten Commandments in Islam, so I'd want some sort of rewrite that doesn't just convey this false information ( diatribe) as if it were fact. I can't attempt to do that without a source. -- Kendrick7 talk 21:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading of Reaction_Israeli, I suggest adding:
--Thanks,
Deborahjay (
talk) 10:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
(* N.B. – on or about March 13) --
Deborahjay (
talk) 17:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Follow-up: Upon finding and rereading the
Haaretz article (March 11, 2008), I find the incident insufficiently notable for inclusion in the
mainspace article. Rather, I've added it here and on her article's
Talk page. --
Deborahjay (
talk) 18:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The Israeli police finally briefed the Knesset last week with more details and there version of the timeline. On top of that, the article is missing the controversy about the first police at the scene who did not confront the terrorist, as well as the exact details of Dadon and Shapira's actions. The current article is still using early references that have since been corrected (no 500 bullets, only six magazines spent, etc...) Normally, I'd refrain from asking others to update a page, but I have a lack of WP time in the near future. -- Shuki ( talk)
I'd like to point out to everyone the disparity in the quality of sourcing between the respective sections on Israeli and Palestinian reactions. Israeli reactions are sourced to high-quality reliable sources, but the Palestinian reactions, aside from two quotes from the papers of record of India and the US, are sourced to the likes of freerepublic.com and a blog. This is probably not a good idea. Please come up with alternatives or I will be forced to find equivalent quotes/reactions from more reliable sources and replace them. (Note that one of the blogs purports to have a translation from JCPA. From what I see the translation is not inaccurate, but JCPA itself is not a reliable source, as anyone who has read an evisceration of one of their "Israel Campus Beat" reports knows.) -- Relata refero ( disp.) 20:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Sources such as the following are unreliable for claiming that Dr. al-Astal is calling for genocide. Because of this, the content violates WP:BLP.
Source:
Bless sins ( talk) 02:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A SURVIVOR, MIJAEL MENDELSON JASQUI, PERSONALLY TOLD ME THE ATTACK LASTED 14 MINUTES, HE SAYS HE LOOKED AT HIS WATCH SLIGHTLY BEFORE HE STARTED HEARING THE SHOOTINGS AND AFTER THE TERRORIST WAS KILLED AND DADON OR THE SOLDIER SCREAMED "HE IS DEAD". MIJAEL IS A FRIEND OF MINE AND STUDENT AT THE YESHIVA, HE CAN BE CONTACTED FOR VERIFICATION. I WILL ADD HIS STATEMENT TO THE ARTICLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.77.168.129 ( talk) 07:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
the place is an extremist unit training armed extremists. One lone gunman does not get called a terrorist, unless of course you wish to label all the students as terrorists..... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 20:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
In 1974, after the Yom Kippur War - the so-called great crisis of Israeli society - the Gush Emunim movement was established. This movement set as its goal the establishment of Jewish settlements in the empty territories of Judea and Samaria. Gush Emunim was led by R' Tzvi Yehuda's students and was accompanied from its inception and throughout its existence by the blessing and guidance of the Rabbi, now leader of the pioneering settlers. Thus, the ideology of Rabbi Kook was being practically implemented. Yeshiva.org Ha’aretz Taayush
Gush Emunim (Bloc of the Faithful), a right-wing ultranationalist, religio-political revitalization movement, was formed in March 1974 in the aftermath of the October 1973 War. The younger generation of NRP leaders who constituted the party's new religious elite created Gush Emunim. Official links between Gush Emunim and the Youth Faction of the National Religious Party were severed following the NRP's participation in the June 1974 Labor-led coalition government, but close unofficial links between the two groups continued. Gush Emunim also maintained links to Tehiya and factions in the Herut wing of Likud. Country studies Fundamentalism, Terrorism, and Democracy: The Case of the Gush Emunim Underground by Ehud Sprinzak Hebrew University of Jerusalem Geocities
There is a direct link from the Yeshiva to "extremist/terrorists"... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Mercaz HaRav massacre not enough dead Oboler and NoCal100says.
Is 10 a "large number"? I personally think not. In which case this should be renamed to "incident" or "attack" or similar. Otherwise any terrorist attacks that kill 10 or more people should likewise be listed as a "massacre". Wikipedia will quickly fill up with "massacres" diluting those that really are massacre of large numbers of people. Oboler ( talk) 13:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC) Agree. Renaming, per the discussion here NoCal100 (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC) original here
In fact one only has to look at the references supplied in the article itself to see that attack is the most prevalent description, I'm astounded that Oboler found time to search out an obscure tiny article when the Mercaz HaRav attack was one of the reasons behind the racist group JIDF, which Oboler aids. One would have thought that the Mercaz HaRav attack would have caught Oboler's attention first?
Dead link live link to same article see also Ha'aretz Seven students remain hospitalized after shooting
surprisingly the only source for massacre is wiki.????????????????????????????????????... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
This thread was initiated as if its the first thread on this talk page. The issue of the name of the article has been discussed ad nauseum in the above threads. A perusal of the threads shows a clear consensus to use the term massacre (with links to RS using this term). Any generalized discussion at some Wikiproject does not trump a specific discussion. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Amazing enough no. Oboler started the discussion and forgot to inform the relevant people (assuming good faith)....You'll have to be like the rest of us and fall across it, or you can go to Oboler and ask why he failed to inform people.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
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"The attacker was stopped by two Israel Defense Forces officers who were former Mercaz HaRav students..." "A police patrolman who arrived at the scene before Yitzhak Dadon and David Shapira ..."
What is the source that states that David Shapira was a former student? What is the source that states that Yitzhak Dadon was an IDF officer? What is the source that states that Yitzhak Dadon was a former student? What is the source that states that a patrolman arrived at the scene before Yitzhak Dadon? Why did David Shapira arrive at the scene?
"According to an investigation of the attack, in which eight yeshiva students were killed, some 16 minutes elapsed from the moment the terrorist fired his first gunshot until he was subdued by fire from an Israel Defense Forces officer, David Shapira and yeshiva student Yitzhak Dadon."
"The part-time yeshiva student who killed the terrorist, 40-year-old Yitzchak Dadon, said that he shot the attacker in the head with his personal weapon. David Shapira, a yeshiva graduate and officer in the paratroopers, heard the shots from his nearby home, ran to the yeshiva and “finished [the terrorist] off.”" www.nationalterroralert.com/2008/03/06/terror-attack-at-jerusalem-seminary-merkaz-harav-yeshiva-8-dead.
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July 2018- Can any permitted editors add the following tribute volume as a reference regarding the attack- https://www.amazon.com/Princes-Among-Men-Memories-Eight/dp/1598262912 ? Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.246.212 ( talk) 20:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved per Common Name among sources ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 08:46, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Mercaz HaRav massacre → 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack – In the sections above where the naming has been discussed, the requirement that the name reflect the usage in reliable sources is completely ignored. At one time there was an article 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack which was merged with this one and I think that ought to be the proper name. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Comment Example sourcing
and there are many more. Selfstudier ( talk) 10:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
This article does not list the names of the children who were murdered:
Avraham Moses, Doron Mahareta, Yohai Lipshitz, Yonadav Hirshfeld, Yehonatan Eldar, Neria Cohen, Ro’i Roth, Segev Avihail.
Source: https://mercazharav.org.il/en/en/the-yeshiva-yizkor/ 77.137.74.216 ( talk) 05:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
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Remove “massacre” DeadlyRagDoll ( talk) 20:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
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I mean realy - massacre? A sad event, true, and I can see how in western eyes this will lok as a massacare, but this is just another terror attack in Jerusalem. If we start labeling them all as 'massacres' we'll hve to think on something new to describe some realy shocking ones. Again, this attack is shocking - but I rather think it's have to be something more to get such a label.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.130.249.69 ( talk • contribs)
It is a MASSACRE...wiktionary defines massacre as: The intentional killing of a considerable number of human beings, under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty, or contrary to the usages of civilized people. Sounds like this matches the description. It was a massacre. What else would you call it? Why is it not a massacre? Please, Oh uneducated masses, tell me what a massacre is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.139.237 ( talk) 21:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
What's wrong with "school shooting as a form of terrorism"? 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 22:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
several things: 1) It's not specific to this incident 2) the nearly identical "Cave of the patriarchs Massacre" is called as a massacre by Wikipedia. 3) so is the Ma'alot massacre, another near-edenticl incident 4) so is the Avivim school bus massacre NOTE: these are both mass shooting of Israeli school students by Arab terrorists
I think we have to respect the precedents in Wikipedia and call this the Mercaz HaRav massacre. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 23:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Thomas Babbington.
Please give us your two cents regarding the proper name of this article (and perhaps also Mercaz HaRav). Once we work things out here, we can make one move to the proper name.
It seems to me that there are two issues. The first, rather small issue, is the question of which letters should be capitalized in merkaz harav (intentionally all in lower case). Second, is it a shooting, massacre, terrorist attack, etc? Or, from a totally different side, do we go with "2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack" or something of the sort? - Reuvenk T C 00:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The current title is very poor, in my opinion. This was a massacre of students in a yeshiva (a type of school or seminary) by a Palestinian terrorist, in Jerusalem, and yet none of these bolded words are in the title. At the very (very) least the word "massacre" should be in the title, but at least some of these other words should be as well. If someone searches for this article, those are the words they are going to use to try to find this -- as I did, and I was shocked to see what the title actually was. 6SJ7 ( talk) 09:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Based on the discussion above, does anyone have any strong objection to Jerusalem yeshiva massacre, 2008 as a title? Alternatively, 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva massacre, which is probably more conventional, but I personally dislike the titles with the years at the beginning. I will leave the "terrorist" aspect for another day, but am proposing this compromise now so we can get this article un-move-protected and moved to a better title. 6SJ7 ( talk) 18:33, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
The title is fine as it is. Noor Aalam ( talk) 21:10, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Propose Mercaz HaRav massacre. A lone gunman wielding a machine gun and emptying 500-600 bullets is not a shooting. There seems to be little consistancy or consensus about what constitutes the threshold between a shooting and a massacre. It seems that most massacres are termed shootings, though there are plenty of examples of school massacres being titled that way, even a whole category. -- Shuki ( talk) 20:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Baruch Goldstein shooting called the cave of the patriach's massacre? Is there a difference between Jewish and Muslim Blood? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.5.17.50 ( talk) 11:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
The pressis calling ita massacre. Why is this discussion taking place in a vacuum, asthough wikipedia editors got to decide what an event iscalled. the press is calling ita massacre. We should, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.182.48 ( talk) 17:36, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Only five people were killed in the Boston Massacre... 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 22:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
We appear to have a concensus around Mercaz HaRav massacre Morningside Clio ( talk) 22:48, 9 March 2008 (UTC)Morningside Clio
I agree that Mercaz HaRav massacre is the best title. Reason is: the Boroch goldstein incident. that is a massacre according to Wikipedia. there is no important differnece between the two: man with a gun walks into building and starts murdering people who essentializes by presuming them to be his enemies. If you call that one a massacre, you have got to call this one a massacre. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.33.150 ( talk) 23:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
WHAT IS A MASSACRE While there is no absolute definition of a massacre, the appelation necessarily connotes a particular horror, the sense that this is more horrible than most acts of murder. Usually, because teh dead were unarmed and had not offended the murderer by any action, except, of course, by being in some hated category. Thus, the victims of The Mountain Meadows Massacre (Mormons killing non-Mormons), or the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre (an Israelis killing Arabs) offended only by being members of the "wrong" group.
That said, what makes one murder a massacre and another not a massacre is simply that people call one a massacre and another not. Here it is pertinent that some newspaper headlines are indeed calling this a massacre. Massacre fails to derail talks [1] Eight held in yeshiva massacre [2] Settlers vow revenge over Jerusalem massacre [3]
The Guardian, of London, is not a newspaper generally sympathetic to Israel. Yet their headline says Massacre. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 15:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Thomas Babbington
It looks pretty close to a concensus. Moreover, the argument that several similar incidents, especially the Hebron shooting are listed as massacres by Wikipedia seems compelling. I move that we change the name to "Mercaz HaRav Massacre" with whatever alternative names seem necessary going forward, especially as we see which name sthe press is using. Morningside Clio ( talk) 00:18, 10 March 2008 (UTC) Morningside Clio
This certainly looks like a concensus. both here and in the section above. Not unanimity, but certainly concensus. Thomas Babbington ( talk) 15:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)Thomas Babbington
Can someone provide sources that refer to it as a massacre? I think the naming of the title should be based on the most prominent usage among the sources cited. Most I've seem refer to a shooting, but maybe I'm missing something? Tiamut talk 18:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
"
Needs to be merged with 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack. — Nightstallion 22:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
I feel this edit removed information that helps explain irreconcilable news sources. Sherurcij ( Speaker for the Dead) 01:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
World net Daily is hardly a reliable source, esp. for saying that the attack was called "heroic" by Fatah-affiliated groups. This is claim raises a redflag.
If this is indeed true then the news are very significant and other (mainstream) news sources can be found on this. Bless sins ( talk) 13:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
As stated by most reputable news sites the father had been previously involved with Hamas. By ststing that his family is not invovled with any organizations you are misleading your readers. Thank you for your time and I hope this can be included within the article and if not just pull the family line out of your writing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.249.204.72 ( talk) 20:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
There are now pictures up on commons. I got permission to use them and have fowarded the email to OTRS. Unfortunately, the photographer didn't include a Declaration of consent, so that could be a bit of a problem, we'll see. - Reuvenk T C 21:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
that image is quite disgusting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.252.89 ( talk) 16:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Someone fired guns and killed people in a school. What's so hard to understand about that? 204.52.215.107 ( talk) 21:44, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps the point is that ashool shooting like columbine are caused by the personal problems of troubled individuals. this puts them in a differnet category thatn this shooting, which was apparently part of the ongoing Islamist jihad against Israel. George Bancroft ( talk) 01:28, 10 March 2008 (UTC)George Bancroft
This is a difficult section. Obviously, it's all speculation. I'm sure we can find opinions in credible sources that characterize it variously as an act of a deranged psychopath, an attempt at genocide, etc., etc. I'm not comfortable only including those speculations that would seem - to some people at any rate - as legitimate political grievances. It might - perhaps inadvertently - provide some tacit moral justification for the murder. -- Leifern ( talk) 01:48, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Across divided Jerusalem, a day of grief The article has good info on the background of the gunman and the reaction in Israel. -- Shamir1 ( talk) 02:24, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
'Hundreds of Orthodox Jews gathered outside the building and chanted "we want revenge" and "death to Arabs."' This is simply not true. I watched the funeral on live TV. Cymruisrael ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
Yuli Tamir, Israel's Education Minister, who made a condolence visit to the yeshiva two days after the shooting, was forced to leave after when she was verbally attacked by dozens of youths outside building, who called her a "murderer". She said: "This reminded me of the days before (former Prime Minister Yitzhak) Rabin's murder. It's unfortunate that that there is a public which cannot put limits form itself. I only came to pay my respect to the murdered, not to engage in politics."' Yuli Tamir is reminded of the days before Rabin's murder because she, exactly like Rabin, insisted on going uninvited to a place where she knew she would get a hostile reaction. Having incited the reaction, she then complains about it. Cymruisrael ( talk) 14:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
On a separate note, why is the Academic subsection in the Reactions main section limited on the view of one person? This is clearly POV since only one side is represented; I'm sure there are plenty of Jews who think Arabs/Palestinians are inferior. If we can't get two contrasting reactions or at least a reaction from a pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian "philosopher" or academic then this subsection (which is almost entirely a single quote) should be totally removed. -- Al Ameer son ( talk) 02:10, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I watched it live on TV is not a WP:Reliable source Nil Einne ( talk) 12:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I've added a red link for this, as it's unclear who is being referred to. I'm sure at one point this meant the Left Camp of Israel, and now is perhaps means Progressive List for Peace? I'd stub out a dab page, but I'm not really sure. I'd just be, er, winging it, no pun intended! -- Kendrick7 talk 16:19, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I'd really like to see a source on this, rather than what an editor is transcribing from memory. [7] Even with a source, I don't believe this woman has the theological expertise to make such judgments about the status of the Ten Commandments in Islam, so I'd want some sort of rewrite that doesn't just convey this false information ( diatribe) as if it were fact. I can't attempt to do that without a source. -- Kendrick7 talk 21:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Under the heading of Reaction_Israeli, I suggest adding:
--Thanks,
Deborahjay (
talk) 10:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
(* N.B. – on or about March 13) --
Deborahjay (
talk) 17:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Follow-up: Upon finding and rereading the
Haaretz article (March 11, 2008), I find the incident insufficiently notable for inclusion in the
mainspace article. Rather, I've added it here and on her article's
Talk page. --
Deborahjay (
talk) 18:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
The Israeli police finally briefed the Knesset last week with more details and there version of the timeline. On top of that, the article is missing the controversy about the first police at the scene who did not confront the terrorist, as well as the exact details of Dadon and Shapira's actions. The current article is still using early references that have since been corrected (no 500 bullets, only six magazines spent, etc...) Normally, I'd refrain from asking others to update a page, but I have a lack of WP time in the near future. -- Shuki ( talk)
I'd like to point out to everyone the disparity in the quality of sourcing between the respective sections on Israeli and Palestinian reactions. Israeli reactions are sourced to high-quality reliable sources, but the Palestinian reactions, aside from two quotes from the papers of record of India and the US, are sourced to the likes of freerepublic.com and a blog. This is probably not a good idea. Please come up with alternatives or I will be forced to find equivalent quotes/reactions from more reliable sources and replace them. (Note that one of the blogs purports to have a translation from JCPA. From what I see the translation is not inaccurate, but JCPA itself is not a reliable source, as anyone who has read an evisceration of one of their "Israel Campus Beat" reports knows.) -- Relata refero ( disp.) 20:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Sources such as the following are unreliable for claiming that Dr. al-Astal is calling for genocide. Because of this, the content violates WP:BLP.
Source:
Bless sins ( talk) 02:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
A SURVIVOR, MIJAEL MENDELSON JASQUI, PERSONALLY TOLD ME THE ATTACK LASTED 14 MINUTES, HE SAYS HE LOOKED AT HIS WATCH SLIGHTLY BEFORE HE STARTED HEARING THE SHOOTINGS AND AFTER THE TERRORIST WAS KILLED AND DADON OR THE SOLDIER SCREAMED "HE IS DEAD". MIJAEL IS A FRIEND OF MINE AND STUDENT AT THE YESHIVA, HE CAN BE CONTACTED FOR VERIFICATION. I WILL ADD HIS STATEMENT TO THE ARTICLE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.77.168.129 ( talk) 07:44, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
the place is an extremist unit training armed extremists. One lone gunman does not get called a terrorist, unless of course you wish to label all the students as terrorists..... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 20:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
In 1974, after the Yom Kippur War - the so-called great crisis of Israeli society - the Gush Emunim movement was established. This movement set as its goal the establishment of Jewish settlements in the empty territories of Judea and Samaria. Gush Emunim was led by R' Tzvi Yehuda's students and was accompanied from its inception and throughout its existence by the blessing and guidance of the Rabbi, now leader of the pioneering settlers. Thus, the ideology of Rabbi Kook was being practically implemented. Yeshiva.org Ha’aretz Taayush
Gush Emunim (Bloc of the Faithful), a right-wing ultranationalist, religio-political revitalization movement, was formed in March 1974 in the aftermath of the October 1973 War. The younger generation of NRP leaders who constituted the party's new religious elite created Gush Emunim. Official links between Gush Emunim and the Youth Faction of the National Religious Party were severed following the NRP's participation in the June 1974 Labor-led coalition government, but close unofficial links between the two groups continued. Gush Emunim also maintained links to Tehiya and factions in the Herut wing of Likud. Country studies Fundamentalism, Terrorism, and Democracy: The Case of the Gush Emunim Underground by Ehud Sprinzak Hebrew University of Jerusalem Geocities
There is a direct link from the Yeshiva to "extremist/terrorists"... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:57, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
Mercaz HaRav massacre not enough dead Oboler and NoCal100says.
Is 10 a "large number"? I personally think not. In which case this should be renamed to "incident" or "attack" or similar. Otherwise any terrorist attacks that kill 10 or more people should likewise be listed as a "massacre". Wikipedia will quickly fill up with "massacres" diluting those that really are massacre of large numbers of people. Oboler ( talk) 13:00, 22 November 2008 (UTC) Agree. Renaming, per the discussion here NoCal100 (talk) 19:48, 28 November 2008 (UTC) original here
In fact one only has to look at the references supplied in the article itself to see that attack is the most prevalent description, I'm astounded that Oboler found time to search out an obscure tiny article when the Mercaz HaRav attack was one of the reasons behind the racist group JIDF, which Oboler aids. One would have thought that the Mercaz HaRav attack would have caught Oboler's attention first?
Dead link live link to same article see also Ha'aretz Seven students remain hospitalized after shooting
surprisingly the only source for massacre is wiki.????????????????????????????????????... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
This thread was initiated as if its the first thread on this talk page. The issue of the name of the article has been discussed ad nauseum in the above threads. A perusal of the threads shows a clear consensus to use the term massacre (with links to RS using this term). Any generalized discussion at some Wikiproject does not trump a specific discussion. -- brew crewer (yada, yada) 15:51, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Amazing enough no. Oboler started the discussion and forgot to inform the relevant people (assuming good faith)....You'll have to be like the rest of us and fall across it, or you can go to Oboler and ask why he failed to inform people.... Ashley kennedy3 ( talk) 08:09, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
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"The attacker was stopped by two Israel Defense Forces officers who were former Mercaz HaRav students..." "A police patrolman who arrived at the scene before Yitzhak Dadon and David Shapira ..."
What is the source that states that David Shapira was a former student? What is the source that states that Yitzhak Dadon was an IDF officer? What is the source that states that Yitzhak Dadon was a former student? What is the source that states that a patrolman arrived at the scene before Yitzhak Dadon? Why did David Shapira arrive at the scene?
"According to an investigation of the attack, in which eight yeshiva students were killed, some 16 minutes elapsed from the moment the terrorist fired his first gunshot until he was subdued by fire from an Israel Defense Forces officer, David Shapira and yeshiva student Yitzhak Dadon."
"The part-time yeshiva student who killed the terrorist, 40-year-old Yitzchak Dadon, said that he shot the attacker in the head with his personal weapon. David Shapira, a yeshiva graduate and officer in the paratroopers, heard the shots from his nearby home, ran to the yeshiva and “finished [the terrorist] off.”" www.nationalterroralert.com/2008/03/06/terror-attack-at-jerusalem-seminary-merkaz-harav-yeshiva-8-dead.
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July 2018- Can any permitted editors add the following tribute volume as a reference regarding the attack- https://www.amazon.com/Princes-Among-Men-Memories-Eight/dp/1598262912 ? Thanks in advance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.38.246.212 ( talk) 20:47, 25 July 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved per Common Name among sources ( non-admin closure) >>> Extorc. talk 08:46, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Mercaz HaRav massacre → 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack – In the sections above where the naming has been discussed, the requirement that the name reflect the usage in reliable sources is completely ignored. At one time there was an article 2008 Jerusalem yeshiva attack which was merged with this one and I think that ought to be the proper name. Selfstudier ( talk) 09:59, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
Comment Example sourcing
and there are many more. Selfstudier ( talk) 10:06, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
This article does not list the names of the children who were murdered:
Avraham Moses, Doron Mahareta, Yohai Lipshitz, Yonadav Hirshfeld, Yehonatan Eldar, Neria Cohen, Ro’i Roth, Segev Avihail.
Source: https://mercazharav.org.il/en/en/the-yeshiva-yizkor/ 77.137.74.216 ( talk) 05:45, 19 June 2023 (UTC)
This
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Remove “massacre” DeadlyRagDoll ( talk) 20:26, 13 July 2023 (UTC)