2007 New England Patriots season was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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19-0: The Historic Championship Season of New England's Unbeatable Patriots was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 November 2015 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 2007 New England Patriots season. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
I think the patriots cheating needs to be discussed, its pretty important to not only their season, but the Whole NFL.-- The Nation 22:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
"On September 10, Bill Belichick was accused by the Jets of authorizing his staff to film the Jets' defensive signals, a violation of league rules"
This is factually inaccurate. Filming of the opposition's defensive signals was, and is, legal. It was the specific position from which the recording was done (pitchside) which made it an offense. Needs to be corrected.
139.222.126.137 ( talk) 17:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The investigation was about "illegal videotaping." I can't see how you can argue this. Honestly, this is ridiculous. Spying has much broader, negative connotation connected to it and suggests more than what actually happened. Pats1 T/ C 19:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
What does it matter if I speak for myself, considering I'm an untrustworthy liar? Pats1 is right. I felt one way, but after reading what Pats1 said on the subject here, I was swayed. Grow up, man.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't begin this. You did. I made a simple point about Chris' opinion. You lashed out at me, saying "Enough," Stop," and "Deal with it." I defended myself. You say "I'm upset with you because you, totally unprovoked, tried to launch this thing into a whole situation we all know far too well." I didn't do a thing. This whole conversation which has veered off course resulted because you provoked me. I asked Chris a simple question about why he was saying something different now as opposed to earlier today, and you lash out at me. You tell me to "get back to the topic at hand" when you're the one who began bringing the conversation off course.
I didn't do a thing wrong here, and you were the first to make a comment not related to the topic, so I haven't a clue why you're directing all the blame at me. Maybe it's because you and Chris are very good buddies and always side with each other and you want to defend him by making false accusations towards me, or at least that's what it seems like to me. Ksy92003 (talk) 01:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Not gonna happen. Now you're just going backwards. A fake word used by some in the media is clearly NOT the best choice for this section. Give it a rest.► Chris Nelson Holla! 11:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I did not drive the discussion off-topic. Pats1 did in the way that he replied to my comment, which was a perfectly valid comment and perfectly related to the topic, and I defended myself, and it branched off from there. Ksy92003 (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The investigation was about "illegal videotaping." I can't see how you can argue this. Honestly, this is ridiculous. Spying has much broader, negative connotation connected to it and suggests more than what actually happened. Pats1 T/ C 19:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Stop. You're trying to start stuff and I don't want to see this happen again. Chris stated his opinion, deal with it. Pats1 T/ C 21:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I will find an admin. Ksy92003 (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have only one thing to say:
"You are completely untrustworthy because you always lie" Ksy92003 Revision as of 21:37, 30 September 2007. Pats1 T/ C 00:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Don Shula called it "Spygate", as did Ellis Hobbs (Patriot's Cornerback) - http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3099870 So it's not just the media that calls it that. I think whither people are Pat's fans or not, the word is in common use - even on the Pat's team; and should be mentioned in the article Mefanch 17:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think it's necessary. I remember Soxrock used to do it for basketball games and it was frowned upon by some admins.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over the title of the section describing the signal videotaping incident during the Jets game. One option is "Illegal Videotaping Incident" while another option is "Signal Videotaping Incident". In my opinion, "signal" is a better and more descriptive term than "illegal" as it conveys more information. I think any discussion of legality belongs in the section's text, not the title. Thoughts? Chaz Beckett 17:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Knowing the definition of a word is original research? You just lost all credibility with that one. I'm dropping out of this conversation - there's no point discussing something with someone that isn't going to make sense.► Chris Nelson Holla! 17:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Look, it's not my fault you don't know the full definition of "illegal." But one is no more valid than the other. It doesn't matter what you usually think of when you here the word. Illegal and prohibited are synonyms by the very fact they mean the same thing. I'm not doing this anymore, it's like trying to teach calculus to a monkey.► Chris Nelson Holla! 18:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I changed the wording slightly regarding "the first simulcast of any NFL game since Super Bowl I." I'm fairly certain the NFL Network simulcasts their games to LOCAL markets (i.e. I know for a fact that the first evening Thanksgiving game last year on the NFL network - Broncos at Chiefs - was simulcast to our local Kansas City station as many folks did not have the NFL network were still able to watch the game), so I changed the wording to the "first NATIONALLY simulcast NFL game..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.192.213.5 ( talk) 20:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Should there be a section on what records were set/tied/broken by the 2007 Pats? I know in the last game alone, there was the single-season touchdown passes [Brady - 50 passes], single-season touchdown receptions [Moss - 23], most points scored in a season [589] and first 16-0 perfect season. There were more records broken during the season, I just don't remember them. I think that's pretty significant and should be added. Or atleast mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.91.190 ( talk) 05:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Im pretty sure the line about "gay" interception isnt exactly up to wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.70.254 ( talk) 06:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody want to update Week 16's blurb? I would if I had watched the game. The freddinator ( talk) 23:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
It is apparent that Week 17 is too long right now, but I think we should keep it long and shorten it, rather that have a paragraph of speculations the week prior, followed by the aftermath. I am not usually involved in major edits, so if someone else could head a collaborative rewrite of this section, that would be great. Until then, I think we should postpone any drastic changes to Week 17. The freddinator ( talk) 00:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
After a 6-yard Faulk catch ended the third quarter, Maroney was tackled for a loss of 5 yards to begin the fourth quarter. The Patriots converted on third down with a 10-yard Faulk catch, but a Watson catch for a loss of 1 yard and two incompletions forced a Hanson punt. Manning recovered his own fumbled snap to begin the Giants' next drive, and two plays later, the Giants punted back to the Patriots with less than 12 minutes remaining in the game. After a first down incompletion to Welker, Brady attempted a deep pass to Moss, which was underthrown and dropped.
The Giants' next drive began with a 17-yard Kevin Boss reception, but three plays later, the Giants punted back to the Patriots with 7:40 remaining the first half.
As it stands now, three games are just too long. I have fixed this several times but my edits were reverted and I was threatened with bannishment. Please leave your thoughts/comments before I fix this again and probably get banned. RC-0722 ( talk) 02:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: RC, I have personally reduced week 17. Twice. And I was reverted each time by Pats1. It seems clear that there is a consensus for reducing the entries, and only one person seems to be objecting to the reduction. So I have re-instated my edit. -- Edward Morgan Blake ( talk) 06:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I suppose I should've looked at the status of the article before going straight to the talk page (I assumed with all the talk activity, edits were gridlocked). I just read the section and like where it is now. Sorry about that, I'm running on two hours of sleep :D The freddinator ( talk) 17:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Look, do what you want with this article. And, unless called upon, I shall not edit this page any further. Thank You. RC-0722 ( talk) 19:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we please get back to the matter at hand. This isn't about who deleted what. This is about whether the Giants game summary is too long, and if it need rewriting. I say we vote. RC-0722 ( talk) 22:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey people, if you look at the game summary for the Cowbows/Packers game in the 2007 Green Bay Packers season article for example, it keeps certain necessary details about the game w/out giving a near play by play like week 17 here. I agree with RC and Edward Morgan Blake think it needs to be shortened alot. Just because someone repeatedly removes stuff from a article doesn't mean they are vandalizing, although usually it does. I believe RC wasn't doing anything wrong. Thanks, and Happy New Year everyone. Burner0718 ( talk) 02:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC) P.S. "Can't nobody tell me nothin'." - Vince Young
See Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title, which recommends avoiding wikilinks in bold title words. I've tried to remove them several times here, with reversions from Pats1. The links here offer no benefit -- the 2007 NFL season is already linked in See also; Patriots could be linked there as well or from any of the other instances of "Patriots" in the article, or the second sentence in the intro could be rephrased (without redundancy) to include it. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 21:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I want to agree with JHunterJ, and initially did. But after looking at the other 2007 <insert team name here> season articles, and even previous seasons, they seem to either bold simply the year, which, in my opinion looks goofy, or bold year and team name, as is the case here. Both sides offer compelling arguments, but I think that for consistency's sake, it is best to keep it as is with the year and team name bolded. However, if it is a serious problem (which I don't think it is), then it would be best to bring it up in a relevant WikiProject. The freddinator ( talk) 23:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
New section - the last one was too long
I tried to make what I felt was a fair edit based upon the items discussed in the prior discussion topic (Week 17 rewrite). Because it was a very significant game, one in which many records were tied and broken, it is still pretty lengthy. I tried to keep all major plays (those breaking or tying records) in tact while eliminating those detailing specific drives culminating in points gained. My reason for this is, as has been brought up several times on this discussion page, this page should not serve as a play-by-play. The previous incarnation, while not a play-by-play by definition, incorporated a lot of irrelevant details (please do not cite other sections on this page as an argument because, as far as I can see, they have predominantly been written by Pats1, who was also responsible, and still is responsible, for the bulk of this section) detailing how teams got to their touchdown/field goal play. While this would fit well on a page detailing this game, this article is about the season with a summary of each game. The net character loss is approx -500, making the entire section viewable on my monitor (1280*1024 19" screen). Also, it is now more comprobable in size to the other sections on this page. Please feel free to edit it, but if you want to revert it, please discuss here first. If you feel contentious sections are missing, please bring your argument here before you post, as well. The freddinator ( talk) 01:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Just corrected the date of the Pats' first playoff game for the 2007 seasons (it's in 2008 :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by FriedTaterExplosion ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Tully Banta-Cain was not a starter. He only started if one of the other linebackers was injured. 65.174.54.231 ( talk) 02:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I want to be upfront here with everyone before I begin.
With all that said, I am going to write in a section. In it I will include
If you have any issues, I think we should go to mediation cabal and possibly arbitration afterwards. Arnabdas ( talk) 17:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all the work on this article. Unfortunately, I think it has a ways to go before reaching GA status; it is not technically a "quick-fail," but in my view fairly close. I'll outline my initial concerns below, but this is not yet the result of a comprehensive reading of the article; these are simply the most obvious problems I see.
Again, good work on the article. I'll leave the nomination open for now, and check back in a couple days; I won't pass the article unless a great deal of work is done, but it is conceivable that could happen on a short time frame, so I'm holding off on making a decision. - Pete ( talk) 23:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, you're right, my opening was OR. But that is true only because I didn't get the cites that—if I really cared about this topic—would be pretty darn easy to come across. Yes, we do have an obligation to avoid OR, simply because of the unique nature of our project, and I stand corrected on that point.
However, I vehemently disagree with your characterization of "just short of perfection" as being POV. The 2007 Pats are the only team in over 50 years to go to the championship game undefeated and yet fall short in that championship. If you don't recognize that that is "just short of perfection", then you'd probably be one of the people that would say that Wikipedia shouldn't call this guy or this woman "controversial", because that would be "POV".
Consider our current opening to this article:
I haven't looked at the article for the 2006 season, but I wouldn't be surprised if it starts out
And if it does, that's a real shame. I guarantee you that most publications, including most encyclopedias (if they actually had articles on individual seasons), would not open an article on the 2006 season with the same words as they would open an article on the 2007 season. To do so is just piss poor writing, and completely unnecessary. Yes, there is something to be said for having certain facts expressed identically from article to article—but that's why we have infoboxes. Writing should be something richer, whenever possible.
Anything informational that is well-written starts off with what is most significant about the subject. Is the most significant thing about the 2007 Pats season the fact that it was the 48th season? Of course not. I know that some people seem to think that an encyclopedia has to be sterile. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Look, the language we speak (assuming you're a native English speaker) is a full and rich language, and we should use it. An encyclopedia does not have to read like an abstract written by a grad student—and most of them don't. Unschool ( talk) 04:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
You don't read an encyclopedia, Wikipedia or Britanica, for dramatic prose. You read it for facts and for research. It should also be consistent which is why the first sentence of the lead is similar to the other season articles. I think the lead in its current form puts the Superbowl loss in adequate context with its relevance with the rest of the season. Eleven Special ( talk) 14:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at other sequential subjects like US Presidents. For example, the article for Richard Nixon begins, "Richard Milhous Nixon (January 9, 1913 – April 22, 1994) was the thirty-seventh President of the United States from 1969 to 1974." It would be inconsistent with other POTUS articles to begin the lead with the Watergate scandal or that he was the first president to resign, even though it might be more colorful. Eleven Special ( talk) 15:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to separate more clearly the issue upon which we disagree, Pats1. You say that it is POV to elevate one fact above others, that chronology trumps the perception of significance, is that correct? So then you would be happy with this opening but would think that this one and this one and this one and this one and this one are marred by POV?
But what is the purpose of the NPOV policy? NPOV is very correctly seen as one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia; this project would never have grown into the important site that it is without NPOV. But NPOV does not equal nor require flavorlessness. What it requires is that we be sensitive to all points of view and to not try to impose one point of view over others. NPOV does not require that writing be sterilized of all that makes it interesting.
What we should do is to write well. Pretty much any writing instructor would look at the seven articles on the Patriots' 21st century seasons and tell you that they fail flat-out because of their openings. An expository article on the 2001 season should not begin with the same verbiage as the article on the 2000 season, because they were very, very different in their totality. To argue that an article on a 19-0 season should not identify that fact in its opening sentence is to not understand the difference between sterility and NPOV. A 19-0 season would be unique, and that acknowledging that uniqueness is not POV, it is the obligation of a good writer.
Well, I'm just repeating myself now. Unschool ( talk) 01:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the proper tone lies somewhere between the extremes each of you endorse. For instance, the pursuit of the "perfect season" was the focus of an enormous amount of coverage in reliable sources, which are our only guide in writing encyclopedia articles. The lead should reflect this. It could be stated as "one game short of a perfect season" instead of "just short of perfection." That would be more descriptive and more accurate. I would encourage both of you to focus more improving specific sections of text, and less on these theoretical debates on the talk page, which really don't serve to advance the article. I'll try to work on it myself too. - Pete ( talk) 01:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Another thought just occurred to me. So you say you think that Wikipedia should be completely NPOV, and not display any hint that one fact regarding a group be more important than any other. Remember how you corrected my error, pointing out that the game I was referring to was the Week 17 game, not the AFC championship? (Thank you for correcting me on that, btw) Well, isn't it POV to have an article on the Week 17 Giants-Pats game but not on every other game of the season? Is there an article on every game from Week 17? I'm guessing not. And why not? Because some things are simply recognized as being more significant than others. Such as the 2001 Pats season, which is significant for the fact that it was the Pats' first ever SuperBowl win. That is simply more important to recognize than the fact that it was the team's 32nd season. Unschool ( talk) 02:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The Week 17 and Super Bowl sections are WAY too long - they're virtually a copy of the actual article sections. Summarize it, it doesn't need to be that long. JAF1970 ( talk) 02:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
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Seeing as this article is about the Patriots' season, not the Giants', it seems more than a little odd that the only plays illustrated are the ones from the Giants' final drive in SB42. While I understand their notability, it seems bizarre. Couldn't it at least be balanced out with, say, a photo (I assume one exists) of the record-setting Brady-to-Moss pass? Samer ( talk) 20:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The 2007 Pats are the only team to win 18 games in a row in a full season. JAF1970 ( talk) 15:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
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I don't think there is any content to merge. It's an amusing piece of trivia that someone prepared a book for the potential season, but other than that, there doesn't appear to be any content in the page worth bringing over. Tarl.Neustaedter ( talk) 05:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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The article ought to mention the first sentence or at least the first paragraph why this season was notable: that the Patriots went unbeaten and then lost in the biggest upset of all time. I don't like the existence of all these 'X sports team's Y season' articles but this would remain notable even if they were all finally expunged. The reason for that notoriety should be explained as early as possible. 86.139.253.114 ( talk) 11:45, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
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2007 New England Patriots season was a Sports and recreation good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | ||||||||||
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19-0: The Historic Championship Season of New England's Unbeatable Patriots was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 18 November 2015 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into 2007 New England Patriots season. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here. |
I think the patriots cheating needs to be discussed, its pretty important to not only their season, but the Whole NFL.-- The Nation 22:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
"On September 10, Bill Belichick was accused by the Jets of authorizing his staff to film the Jets' defensive signals, a violation of league rules"
This is factually inaccurate. Filming of the opposition's defensive signals was, and is, legal. It was the specific position from which the recording was done (pitchside) which made it an offense. Needs to be corrected.
139.222.126.137 ( talk) 17:07, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
The investigation was about "illegal videotaping." I can't see how you can argue this. Honestly, this is ridiculous. Spying has much broader, negative connotation connected to it and suggests more than what actually happened. Pats1 T/ C 19:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
What does it matter if I speak for myself, considering I'm an untrustworthy liar? Pats1 is right. I felt one way, but after reading what Pats1 said on the subject here, I was swayed. Grow up, man.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:02, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't begin this. You did. I made a simple point about Chris' opinion. You lashed out at me, saying "Enough," Stop," and "Deal with it." I defended myself. You say "I'm upset with you because you, totally unprovoked, tried to launch this thing into a whole situation we all know far too well." I didn't do a thing. This whole conversation which has veered off course resulted because you provoked me. I asked Chris a simple question about why he was saying something different now as opposed to earlier today, and you lash out at me. You tell me to "get back to the topic at hand" when you're the one who began bringing the conversation off course.
I didn't do a thing wrong here, and you were the first to make a comment not related to the topic, so I haven't a clue why you're directing all the blame at me. Maybe it's because you and Chris are very good buddies and always side with each other and you want to defend him by making false accusations towards me, or at least that's what it seems like to me. Ksy92003 (talk) 01:26, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Not gonna happen. Now you're just going backwards. A fake word used by some in the media is clearly NOT the best choice for this section. Give it a rest.► Chris Nelson Holla! 11:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I did not drive the discussion off-topic. Pats1 did in the way that he replied to my comment, which was a perfectly valid comment and perfectly related to the topic, and I defended myself, and it branched off from there. Ksy92003 (talk) 21:57, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The investigation was about "illegal videotaping." I can't see how you can argue this. Honestly, this is ridiculous. Spying has much broader, negative connotation connected to it and suggests more than what actually happened. Pats1 T/ C 19:42, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Enough. Stop. You're trying to start stuff and I don't want to see this happen again. Chris stated his opinion, deal with it. Pats1 T/ C 21:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Alright, I will find an admin. Ksy92003 (talk) 22:13, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
I have only one thing to say:
"You are completely untrustworthy because you always lie" Ksy92003 Revision as of 21:37, 30 September 2007. Pats1 T/ C 00:24, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Don Shula called it "Spygate", as did Ellis Hobbs (Patriot's Cornerback) - http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3099870 So it's not just the media that calls it that. I think whither people are Pat's fans or not, the word is in common use - even on the Pat's team; and should be mentioned in the article Mefanch 17:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think it's necessary. I remember Soxrock used to do it for basketball games and it was frowned upon by some admins.► Chris Nelson Holla! 22:11, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
There is some disagreement over the title of the section describing the signal videotaping incident during the Jets game. One option is "Illegal Videotaping Incident" while another option is "Signal Videotaping Incident". In my opinion, "signal" is a better and more descriptive term than "illegal" as it conveys more information. I think any discussion of legality belongs in the section's text, not the title. Thoughts? Chaz Beckett 17:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Knowing the definition of a word is original research? You just lost all credibility with that one. I'm dropping out of this conversation - there's no point discussing something with someone that isn't going to make sense.► Chris Nelson Holla! 17:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Look, it's not my fault you don't know the full definition of "illegal." But one is no more valid than the other. It doesn't matter what you usually think of when you here the word. Illegal and prohibited are synonyms by the very fact they mean the same thing. I'm not doing this anymore, it's like trying to teach calculus to a monkey.► Chris Nelson Holla! 18:21, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I changed the wording slightly regarding "the first simulcast of any NFL game since Super Bowl I." I'm fairly certain the NFL Network simulcasts their games to LOCAL markets (i.e. I know for a fact that the first evening Thanksgiving game last year on the NFL network - Broncos at Chiefs - was simulcast to our local Kansas City station as many folks did not have the NFL network were still able to watch the game), so I changed the wording to the "first NATIONALLY simulcast NFL game..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.192.213.5 ( talk) 20:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Should there be a section on what records were set/tied/broken by the 2007 Pats? I know in the last game alone, there was the single-season touchdown passes [Brady - 50 passes], single-season touchdown receptions [Moss - 23], most points scored in a season [589] and first 16-0 perfect season. There were more records broken during the season, I just don't remember them. I think that's pretty significant and should be added. Or atleast mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.147.91.190 ( talk) 05:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Im pretty sure the line about "gay" interception isnt exactly up to wikipedia standards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.70.254 ( talk) 06:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Somebody want to update Week 16's blurb? I would if I had watched the game. The freddinator ( talk) 23:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
It is apparent that Week 17 is too long right now, but I think we should keep it long and shorten it, rather that have a paragraph of speculations the week prior, followed by the aftermath. I am not usually involved in major edits, so if someone else could head a collaborative rewrite of this section, that would be great. Until then, I think we should postpone any drastic changes to Week 17. The freddinator ( talk) 00:25, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
After a 6-yard Faulk catch ended the third quarter, Maroney was tackled for a loss of 5 yards to begin the fourth quarter. The Patriots converted on third down with a 10-yard Faulk catch, but a Watson catch for a loss of 1 yard and two incompletions forced a Hanson punt. Manning recovered his own fumbled snap to begin the Giants' next drive, and two plays later, the Giants punted back to the Patriots with less than 12 minutes remaining in the game. After a first down incompletion to Welker, Brady attempted a deep pass to Moss, which was underthrown and dropped.
The Giants' next drive began with a 17-yard Kevin Boss reception, but three plays later, the Giants punted back to the Patriots with 7:40 remaining the first half.
As it stands now, three games are just too long. I have fixed this several times but my edits were reverted and I was threatened with bannishment. Please leave your thoughts/comments before I fix this again and probably get banned. RC-0722 ( talk) 02:31, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Re: RC, I have personally reduced week 17. Twice. And I was reverted each time by Pats1. It seems clear that there is a consensus for reducing the entries, and only one person seems to be objecting to the reduction. So I have re-instated my edit. -- Edward Morgan Blake ( talk) 06:22, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I suppose I should've looked at the status of the article before going straight to the talk page (I assumed with all the talk activity, edits were gridlocked). I just read the section and like where it is now. Sorry about that, I'm running on two hours of sleep :D The freddinator ( talk) 17:01, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Look, do what you want with this article. And, unless called upon, I shall not edit this page any further. Thank You. RC-0722 ( talk) 19:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Can we please get back to the matter at hand. This isn't about who deleted what. This is about whether the Giants game summary is too long, and if it need rewriting. I say we vote. RC-0722 ( talk) 22:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey people, if you look at the game summary for the Cowbows/Packers game in the 2007 Green Bay Packers season article for example, it keeps certain necessary details about the game w/out giving a near play by play like week 17 here. I agree with RC and Edward Morgan Blake think it needs to be shortened alot. Just because someone repeatedly removes stuff from a article doesn't mean they are vandalizing, although usually it does. I believe RC wasn't doing anything wrong. Thanks, and Happy New Year everyone. Burner0718 ( talk) 02:50, 3 January 2008 (UTC) P.S. "Can't nobody tell me nothin'." - Vince Young
See Wikipedia:Lead section#Bold title, which recommends avoiding wikilinks in bold title words. I've tried to remove them several times here, with reversions from Pats1. The links here offer no benefit -- the 2007 NFL season is already linked in See also; Patriots could be linked there as well or from any of the other instances of "Patriots" in the article, or the second sentence in the intro could be rephrased (without redundancy) to include it. -- JHunterJ ( talk) 21:07, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I want to agree with JHunterJ, and initially did. But after looking at the other 2007 <insert team name here> season articles, and even previous seasons, they seem to either bold simply the year, which, in my opinion looks goofy, or bold year and team name, as is the case here. Both sides offer compelling arguments, but I think that for consistency's sake, it is best to keep it as is with the year and team name bolded. However, if it is a serious problem (which I don't think it is), then it would be best to bring it up in a relevant WikiProject. The freddinator ( talk) 23:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
New section - the last one was too long
I tried to make what I felt was a fair edit based upon the items discussed in the prior discussion topic (Week 17 rewrite). Because it was a very significant game, one in which many records were tied and broken, it is still pretty lengthy. I tried to keep all major plays (those breaking or tying records) in tact while eliminating those detailing specific drives culminating in points gained. My reason for this is, as has been brought up several times on this discussion page, this page should not serve as a play-by-play. The previous incarnation, while not a play-by-play by definition, incorporated a lot of irrelevant details (please do not cite other sections on this page as an argument because, as far as I can see, they have predominantly been written by Pats1, who was also responsible, and still is responsible, for the bulk of this section) detailing how teams got to their touchdown/field goal play. While this would fit well on a page detailing this game, this article is about the season with a summary of each game. The net character loss is approx -500, making the entire section viewable on my monitor (1280*1024 19" screen). Also, it is now more comprobable in size to the other sections on this page. Please feel free to edit it, but if you want to revert it, please discuss here first. If you feel contentious sections are missing, please bring your argument here before you post, as well. The freddinator ( talk) 01:25, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Just corrected the date of the Pats' first playoff game for the 2007 seasons (it's in 2008 :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by FriedTaterExplosion ( talk • contribs) 15:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Tully Banta-Cain was not a starter. He only started if one of the other linebackers was injured. 65.174.54.231 ( talk) 02:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I want to be upfront here with everyone before I begin.
With all that said, I am going to write in a section. In it I will include
If you have any issues, I think we should go to mediation cabal and possibly arbitration afterwards. Arnabdas ( talk) 17:12, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all the work on this article. Unfortunately, I think it has a ways to go before reaching GA status; it is not technically a "quick-fail," but in my view fairly close. I'll outline my initial concerns below, but this is not yet the result of a comprehensive reading of the article; these are simply the most obvious problems I see.
Again, good work on the article. I'll leave the nomination open for now, and check back in a couple days; I won't pass the article unless a great deal of work is done, but it is conceivable that could happen on a short time frame, so I'm holding off on making a decision. - Pete ( talk) 23:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, you're right, my opening was OR. But that is true only because I didn't get the cites that—if I really cared about this topic—would be pretty darn easy to come across. Yes, we do have an obligation to avoid OR, simply because of the unique nature of our project, and I stand corrected on that point.
However, I vehemently disagree with your characterization of "just short of perfection" as being POV. The 2007 Pats are the only team in over 50 years to go to the championship game undefeated and yet fall short in that championship. If you don't recognize that that is "just short of perfection", then you'd probably be one of the people that would say that Wikipedia shouldn't call this guy or this woman "controversial", because that would be "POV".
Consider our current opening to this article:
I haven't looked at the article for the 2006 season, but I wouldn't be surprised if it starts out
And if it does, that's a real shame. I guarantee you that most publications, including most encyclopedias (if they actually had articles on individual seasons), would not open an article on the 2006 season with the same words as they would open an article on the 2007 season. To do so is just piss poor writing, and completely unnecessary. Yes, there is something to be said for having certain facts expressed identically from article to article—but that's why we have infoboxes. Writing should be something richer, whenever possible.
Anything informational that is well-written starts off with what is most significant about the subject. Is the most significant thing about the 2007 Pats season the fact that it was the 48th season? Of course not. I know that some people seem to think that an encyclopedia has to be sterile. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Look, the language we speak (assuming you're a native English speaker) is a full and rich language, and we should use it. An encyclopedia does not have to read like an abstract written by a grad student—and most of them don't. Unschool ( talk) 04:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
You don't read an encyclopedia, Wikipedia or Britanica, for dramatic prose. You read it for facts and for research. It should also be consistent which is why the first sentence of the lead is similar to the other season articles. I think the lead in its current form puts the Superbowl loss in adequate context with its relevance with the rest of the season. Eleven Special ( talk) 14:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at other sequential subjects like US Presidents. For example, the article for Richard Nixon begins, "Richard Milhous Nixon (January 9, 1913 – April 22, 1994) was the thirty-seventh President of the United States from 1969 to 1974." It would be inconsistent with other POTUS articles to begin the lead with the Watergate scandal or that he was the first president to resign, even though it might be more colorful. Eleven Special ( talk) 15:07, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I just wanted to separate more clearly the issue upon which we disagree, Pats1. You say that it is POV to elevate one fact above others, that chronology trumps the perception of significance, is that correct? So then you would be happy with this opening but would think that this one and this one and this one and this one and this one are marred by POV?
But what is the purpose of the NPOV policy? NPOV is very correctly seen as one of the cornerstones of Wikipedia; this project would never have grown into the important site that it is without NPOV. But NPOV does not equal nor require flavorlessness. What it requires is that we be sensitive to all points of view and to not try to impose one point of view over others. NPOV does not require that writing be sterilized of all that makes it interesting.
What we should do is to write well. Pretty much any writing instructor would look at the seven articles on the Patriots' 21st century seasons and tell you that they fail flat-out because of their openings. An expository article on the 2001 season should not begin with the same verbiage as the article on the 2000 season, because they were very, very different in their totality. To argue that an article on a 19-0 season should not identify that fact in its opening sentence is to not understand the difference between sterility and NPOV. A 19-0 season would be unique, and that acknowledging that uniqueness is not POV, it is the obligation of a good writer.
Well, I'm just repeating myself now. Unschool ( talk) 01:31, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the proper tone lies somewhere between the extremes each of you endorse. For instance, the pursuit of the "perfect season" was the focus of an enormous amount of coverage in reliable sources, which are our only guide in writing encyclopedia articles. The lead should reflect this. It could be stated as "one game short of a perfect season" instead of "just short of perfection." That would be more descriptive and more accurate. I would encourage both of you to focus more improving specific sections of text, and less on these theoretical debates on the talk page, which really don't serve to advance the article. I'll try to work on it myself too. - Pete ( talk) 01:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Another thought just occurred to me. So you say you think that Wikipedia should be completely NPOV, and not display any hint that one fact regarding a group be more important than any other. Remember how you corrected my error, pointing out that the game I was referring to was the Week 17 game, not the AFC championship? (Thank you for correcting me on that, btw) Well, isn't it POV to have an article on the Week 17 Giants-Pats game but not on every other game of the season? Is there an article on every game from Week 17? I'm guessing not. And why not? Because some things are simply recognized as being more significant than others. Such as the 2001 Pats season, which is significant for the fact that it was the Pats' first ever SuperBowl win. That is simply more important to recognize than the fact that it was the team's 32nd season. Unschool ( talk) 02:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
The Week 17 and Super Bowl sections are WAY too long - they're virtually a copy of the actual article sections. Summarize it, it doesn't need to be that long. JAF1970 ( talk) 02:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
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Seeing as this article is about the Patriots' season, not the Giants', it seems more than a little odd that the only plays illustrated are the ones from the Giants' final drive in SB42. While I understand their notability, it seems bizarre. Couldn't it at least be balanced out with, say, a photo (I assume one exists) of the record-setting Brady-to-Moss pass? Samer ( talk) 20:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
The 2007 Pats are the only team to win 18 games in a row in a full season. JAF1970 ( talk) 15:23, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
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I don't think there is any content to merge. It's an amusing piece of trivia that someone prepared a book for the potential season, but other than that, there doesn't appear to be any content in the page worth bringing over. Tarl.Neustaedter ( talk) 05:03, 18 November 2015 (UTC)
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The article ought to mention the first sentence or at least the first paragraph why this season was notable: that the Patriots went unbeaten and then lost in the biggest upset of all time. I don't like the existence of all these 'X sports team's Y season' articles but this would remain notable even if they were all finally expunged. The reason for that notoriety should be explained as early as possible. 86.139.253.114 ( talk) 11:45, 30 December 2016 (UTC)
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