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Shock and anxiety are now considered injuries? Because in that case, I believe many tens of thousands of injuries have been excluded from the Lebanese section of the article. What complete nonsense! Only added to trump up the number of injured Israelis. A fucking outrage!
This issue has been discussed before, check the archives. Lack of information for the Lebanese is not a legitimate reason to remove information regarding Israelis. Rami R 13:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"In Syria, the war was met with intensified chest-thumping toward Israel. "
What is that supposed to mean? I find "chest thumping" to be of very poor taste. Perhaps to be replaced with "boasting" or something less derogatory in nature.( Medfreak ( talk) 15:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC))
How about "sabre rattling"? FlaviaR ( talk) 14:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The statement 'The conflict killed over a thousand people (mostly civilians)' contradicts what is stated under the casualties section. The most notable statements:
Hezbollah casualty figures are difficult to ascertain, with claims and estimates by different groups and individuals ranging from 250 to 1,000. Hezbollah's leadership claims that 250 of their fighters were killed in the conflict,[8] while Israel estimated that its forces had killed 600 Hezbollah fighters.[8][11] In addition, Israel claimed to have the names of 532 dead Hezbollah fighters.[144][dead links] A UN official estimated that 500 Hezbollah fighters had been killed,[10] and Lebanese government officials estimated that up to 500 had been killed.[9] A Stratfor report cited "sources in Lebanon" as estimating the Hezbollah death toll at "more than 700... with many more to go",[145] while British military historian John Keegan estimated the figure could be 'perhaps as many as 1,000' (although this figure isn't based on any solid evidence).[146] A burial count of strictly Shia-Hezbollah soldiers gave a possible death toll of 184.
The Lebanese civilian death toll is difficult to pinpoint as most published figures do not distinguish between civilians and Hezbollah combatants, including those released by the Lebanese government.[11] In addition, Hezbollah fighters can be difficult to identify as many do not wear military uniforms.[11]
Both statements say 'difficult to ascertain' and 'difficult to pinpoint'. 'Mostly civilians' as a statement at the beginning of the article is not conclusive? A change to 'The conflict killed over a thousand people (Hezbollah fighters and civilians)' seems appropriate as it does not lean towards either side of the conflict and respects the inconclusiveness to what the figures are estimated to be.
Again, the sources that are stated in the casualties section show that the numbers are inconclusive. Each source reports different estimates for civilian and fighters casualties. A neutral statement of 'Hezbollah fighters and civilians' would be a just and unbiased amendment to the article.
Hyp96er ( talk) 20:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Hyp96er
I have a question. I was wondering should the result of the war be altered to a win for the Hezb/Lebanese side? I'm only floating this across because even though the Vietnamese suffered huge casualties they won the war against the US. Likewise, Nasrallah got Kuntar (who was never going to be given away by the Israelis otherwise). In addition, all of Nasrallah's objectives were achieved, with no loss of territory. Israeli Haaretz, and jpost claims that Hezb has trippled its armoury. These are Israeli sites? Isn't it fair to change the outcome to a win.
<outdent> There is a convincing argument for calling this a bad defeat for Israel (and a lesser case for calling it a victory for Hezbollah), though I'm not sure how to present it. As Norman Finkelstein says "Israel always depended on the fact that its adversaries were stupid, incompetent, blowhards and windbags, and hot air baloons", naming Nasser, Saddam and Arafat. Finkelstein goes on to say that Israelis "have more reason than anyone else to want to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Because now, I think, Israel is facing a very serious threat". Nasrallah is totally different from those other Arab leaders, both militarily and in popular style "the universe can blow up, the stars can crash, the planets can collide - you are not getting back those two prisoners. There's going to be a prisoner exchange, you'll not get them back unilaterally from us". His "Victory Parade" speech called for a "strong, capable, just, clean and proud state" and spoke of "reason, planning, organization and armament" as being the key to stop Israeli triggering another Civil War. "This is the secret of the victory we are today celebrating, brothers and sisters." Astoundingly, Israelis trusted Nasrallah more than they did Peretz according to a poll published by YnetNews! That's an earthquake in anyone's language. PR talk 22:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [2]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was going on this page and saw the "allegations of war crimes" of war crime part. I checked my dictionary twice to make sure I wasn't going to say a nonsense and I clearly saw that an allegation was an assertion without factual proof. So here is my question, isn't wikipedia taking side by affirming the accusations against Israel are without factual basis? Amnesty International itself wrote a fairly nasty report toward the Israelite intervention didn't it? Isn't the term accusation more neutral because it only implies there are assertions without claiming there is no factual basis behind them (but at the same time without claiming there were war crimes either)? Matthieu ( talk) 13:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The casualty list will always be in dispute since few will consider any source reliable, but the article uses an unreliable source when it states that Hezbollah's claims 250 of its soldiers where killed.
As a watcher of Arabic news, I personally remember the news article which mentioned the 70th soldier who died. He died slowly in hospital from injuries about a month after the end of the war. The story was on Al-Jazeera TV, and Al-Manar news.
The best internet reference i have found is from the Daily star, a Lebanese news paper which generally sides with Hezbollah's opposition. In their account of the history of the war, they make the following reference: "The Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah has announced the death in action of 74 combatants while the allied Amal movement lost 17 militants." [1]
The loss of 70 Hezbollah soldiers is the generally accepted figure among Lebanese people. The number is reasonable since Hezbollah soldiers are very rarely visible, and the group celebrates each "Martyrdom" with billboards and honorable burials. Hezbollah leaders have also been know for taking pride in their large number of fighting martyrs from the first Israeli war against Lebanon so their is no reason for the group to start hiding its death tolls at this stage. LebaneseView ( talk) 18:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
CAMERA claims otherwise, using media sources: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=12&x_article=1195 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.100.180 ( talk) 11:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
So how about this we put three estimates on the number of civilians .One if we take hezbullah's extimates (250 hezbullah dead and approximately 950 lebanese civilians dead ) , another if we take the IDF's estimates ( 600 by 600) and the last one the lebanese estimates(500 by 700) . So I think this way we could solve the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.18.167 ( talk) 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
The article says that IDF claims that 600 died while Hezbullah claims that 250 died . I would like to ask why in the columns does it say 250 to 700 when it should say 250 to 600 . I mean taking the statfor report into consideration is kind of unprofessional first considering how it is worded " 700 dead with many more to go" it shows that the report is hinting at the killing of more Hezbullah fighters. Second , there are tons of reports out there that would put the number of deaths in other numbers which is why I think we should only keep with the estimates of the two armies .
Another thing I want to say is that the columns only take Israel 's side of the story . What I mean is that it doesn't say how much Hezbullah estimates the IDF number of deaths are . Now you may find it funny but Hezbullah was part of the conflict and if you want to take IDF estimates of Hezbullahs deaths into consideration you should put in Hezbullah's estimate of the IDF's number of deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.18.167 ( talk) 21:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm sure this has come up and been discussed at length before but does anyone know/remember the details of how it was decided that this war would be treated as part of the war on terrorism ? It's probably in the archives but there appear to be rather a lot of them. I'm interested in the decision procedure that is normally used to identify an event as being part of the war on terrorism. Are there guidelines for example, criteria that have to met in order for a particular conlict to get the 'part of' header. Is it a systematic-ish process or a consensus following discussion ? Any advice/pointers gratefully received. Thanks Sean.hoyland - talk 16:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC) isn't the war on terrorism a name that was invented by bushy boy . so i guess anything he says is part of is part of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.255.177 ( talk) 00:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
I would like someone to reconsider placing Imad Mugniyeh as KIA. When reading this article, it gives the impressio he was killed during the 2006 Lebanon War while in fact he was killing almost two years later being assasinated. Any suggestions? He was not KIA during this war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.175.188 ( talk) 12:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This user has added some ridicules claims into the article, and distorted other sentences beyond recognition. All subsequent edits just formatted the text, but didn't deal with the factual problem, or the fact that a sentence made no sense anymore. Please revert this user's edits if they are not factual and properly sourced, and try to look at the substance of a user's edits, not just the bad formatting. Thanks, okedem ( talk) 11:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
You need to revise the section stating that UNSCR 1701 calls for the GOL to disarm Hizballah. The wording is ambiguous at best and Hizballah has continually called itself a resistance and not a militia. This "resistance" tag is Hizballah and many GOL officials way of skirting the issue. Either put in the exact wording of UNSCR 1701 which would apply to many Sunni and Christian militias in Lebanon or explain the full context. Either way the statement that 1701 says to disarm Hizballah is a flase statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.31.19.50 ( talk) 18:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as the removal of a small fact conflicting with the NPOV policy was reinstated twice, I'm putting it up for discussion. "So far, these have killed 29 people and wounded 215—90 of them children." The aforementioned line chooses to make special mentioning of the number of children killed. Despite being sourced, as the latest person to reinstate the fact mentioned, it fails to comply with the following 2 statements/policies found in WP:NPOVD:
The above line puts special attention and emphasis on the number of children killed in an attempt to stir up emotion, rather than provide information. I see no other reason to SPECIFICALLY mention the number of children killed among the casualties.
Key in point is the Afghanistan war article, one of the few modern war articles with no neutrality issues and is a former featured article candidate. The article doesn't make even a single mentioning of the number of children, or women, killed in the conflict.
Also, for those interested in specific casualty information or wishing to provide detailed information, there's the Casualties of the 2006 Lebanon War page. Demetrius Phalereus of Wikipedius ( talk) 13:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"... [D]espite official requests from the United Nations, Israel has still not provided maps for the areas it targeted with cluster bombs. This failure is further endangering the lives of Lebanese civilians, particularly children." [7]
Just reverted twice a remove by User:Okedem, concerning Noam Chomsky. His/her edit arguments change, and do not respond to my rv arguments. Also: User talk:Okedem shows repetitive edit wars. So I stop argumenting and reverting. - DePiep ( talk) 22:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index in 1992, Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar during the 1980–92 period, and was the eighth most-cited source."
"... I agree with those above we should only reference an article in this mag and others like FPM if that article's author is notable in his own right (e.g. Chomsky for Counterpunch, Pipes for FPM)." - Merzbow (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"Since when is Daniel Pipes notable in any way similar to Noam Chomsky? Chomsky has a very wide and international notability in several areas of scholarship and political commentary, whereas Pipes certainly does not... While I get the similarity here on Wikipedia in terms of perceived POV lets not delude ourselves about the notability of minor ideologues (vs. quite major ideologues)." - PelleSmith (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
So I've removed Lebanon from the list of belligerents. Anyone have an argument for why it should be included? Wiktionary defines a belligerent as "1. Engaged in warfare, warring. 2. Eager to go to war, warlike. 3. Of or pertaining to war. 4. (By extension) Aggressively hostile, eager to fight. 5. Acting violently towards others." [9] The actions of the Lebanese army during the conflict just don't match these definitions. I don't think that failing to disarm a rogue militia from attacking another country makes the government forces "warlike" or "aggressively hostile", but maybe other editors have a differing opinion on the subject. ← George [ talk 23:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
(out)Lebanon is a belligerent if it allows belligerents to operate freely in its territory. See the 1907 Hague Conventions
[10]. Did they even claim Neutral status?
Instead of reading what "belligerent" means and then using OR to remove things, perhaps you should have read
Neutral_country.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 20:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This site: [ Nasrallah is scared] claims that Israel is stroger today, than in 2006. Agre22 ( talk) 13:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)agre22
[copied and pasted from FayssalF's talk page]
You reverted my edits to the Second Lebanon War. Apparently, you thought that they weren't "neutral." I should have you know that my edits were thoroughly researched, cross-referenced, sourced and on some occasions, double sourced.
I'm puzzled as to what you find biased in my edits. I added 6 paragraphs (2 in the "Background" section and four in the "Post War events" section), each dealing with a factual event that ocurred. Please review each paragraph and tell me what you find objectionable and why you found the sources to be unreliable.
In addition, since everything I edited was sourced, the reader can take the information at face value and disregard or accept the information based upon the reader's assessment of the source. However, by deleting my edits, you have substituted the reader's judgnment with your own and have acted as an abusive censor and I believe that you have abused your position as site administrator.
I fully intend on re-posting the reverted edits and adding more edits to this and other articles dealing with the Arab/Israeli conflict to restore some balance and unbiased reporting. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 15:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 15:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi there Faysself. I see that you were quick to revert my edits but not so quick to explain why you thought the sourced material violated neutrality. I would like an explanation please. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 00:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 00:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
jijutsu is biased but whatever since he is biased towards israel who cares.and to prove that i am not hezbullah here fuck iran and the revolution . so you dont think i have an agenda paranoid dipshit.
Hello Faissalf. Thank you for responding and thanks for the constructive criticisms. Perhaps we can come to agreement and consensus on my recent edits. I think you were a bit trigger happy on the revert button. That said, I am willing to play ball and make some changes in the spirit of conciliation and journalistic integrity.
Re paragraph 1: You claim that the edit reads like an army press release. I served four years in the JAG so that’s just my writing style but I am willing to remove the offending words that gave rise to the reversion.
Re paragraph 2: You claim that the edit sounds “too heroic” and suggested that the source itself was biased. The source was Haaretz, a well respected, left of center Israeli daily, equivalent in style and substance to the New York Times. As far as the incident itself is concerned, it truly was a remarkable feat considering that a lone, relatively inexperienced soldier killed four heavily armed operatives and foiled their plans. By your logic, the Wiki article dealing with the Entebbe rescue mission, where IDF soldiers flew into the heart of Africa to rescue hostages should be reverted because the episode “sounds too heroic.” Nevertheless, in the interest of consensus, I will make changes so that it will sound “less heroic.”
Re Paragraph 3: You cite two objections. First you claim “undue weight” and you expressed similar objections to the remaining three paragraphs. Second, you claimed that blogs are not reliable. I will first address the former objection as it pertains to the remaining three paragraphs. There is a specific section in the Wiki article that deals with “Post Ceasefire Events.” The last entry prior to mine relates to an event that occurred June 30, 2007 nearly a full year after the cessation of hostilities. Moreover, the following paragraph relates to an event that occurred on July 16, 2008 two years after the war. Yet you did not delete these entries, presumably because they were issues that were very germane to the war. It is therefore entirely appropriate for me to include paragraphs 3 trough 6 as edits in the “post ceasefire events” section. As I pointed out, Israel connected Mugniyah to the abduction which sparked the war. Deletion of my edit as “undue weight” without doing the same in connection with the aforementioned edits is hypocritical.
You also objected to citing the blog as a source. The article that I cited from was written by Prof Eyal Zisser, head of the Department of Middle Eastern and African History and a senior research fellow at the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University. He is the author of several books including Syria: Domestic Political Stress and Globalization (2002), Assad's Legacy: Syria in Transition (2000), and Lebanon: The Challenge of Independence (2000). In short, he’s no light weight and I suggest that you let the Wiki readers determine for themselves the reliability of the source. Moreover, that was 1 of 3 sources that I cited for that particular edit and deletion of the entire edit was harsh.
Re Paragraph 4: You objected to the usage of the words “embarrassed” and “apparent.” I will substitute the offending words.
Re paragraph 5: You argued “undue weight.” Please refer to my counter argument above. In addition, the issue is germane as it relates to a violation of UN Security Counsel Resolution 1701, the Resolution that brought an end to the war.
Re paragraph 6: You objected to YouTube as a source. First, that was not the only source that I relied upon. You were so quick to delete the edit that you failed to take note that Ynet was also cited as a source. Second, the incident was videotaped and uploaded to YouTube. I just wanted to give Wiki readers the opportunity to view the video and judge for themselves.
Thank you for your time and consideration and I eagerly await your response. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Under the heading "Reactions in the rest of the world" I added some perspectives that were different from the ones already cited. I think it was necessary to restore some balance and perspective. Jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 01:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The sentence "UNIFIL was given an expanded mandate, including the ability to use force to ensure that their area of operations wasn't used for hostile activities, and to resist attempts by force to prevent them from discharging their duties," seemed awkward and out of place where it was, so I moved it to the section of the article dealing with overview. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone with an apparent agenda unjustifiably reverted John Keegan's viewpoint and provided no reason for doing so. Such behavior will be reported if repeated. I uploaded Keegan's viewpoint again.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
no need for paranoia i removed them cause they were exagerated extremely . And ya so you dont think I am in bed with either of terrorists fuck muslims . Dumbfuck
The targets deemed civilian infrastructure had dual use applications and that is why they were targetd. The term "dual use" is the more appropriate terminology.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 23:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
According to Naharnet, a Lebanese daily, Hezbollah uses Beirut airport to smuggle weapons. I've enclosed the link.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/BD506C70EC46346CC225752B004375CA?OpenDocument
I think it should be changed to "had" but I'll leave it to your judgment.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It stands to reason that if they are using the airport to smuggle weapons in 2008, after UNSC Resolution 1701, while under the microscope, they almost certainly used it prior to 2006 when they had a lot more freedom of action. In fact, one of the reasons for the March 14, 2008 violence was because the Lebanese govt. wanted to exercise its authority and fired the airport chief of security, who was a Hezbollah ally. For what its worth, I think you made the correct choice changing it to "had."-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 04:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I was wondering, is worldnetdaily considered a reliable source according to Wikipedia; Since it is the source used when mentioning the Iranian deaths? Also, the source cited when mentioning the PFLP is the Jerusalem Post and it doesn't mention that the PFLP were engaged in combat against the IDF. It says that the IDF bombed their bases. So should the PFLP be included in the list of belligrents? Knight Prince - Sage Veritas ( talk) 02:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to add a sentence or two on the seizure of the Francop by IDF commandos in the post war section. The Francop was carrying close to 500 tons of Iranian weapons and munitions including 3,000 rockets. Israel claims that the weapons were slated for Hezbollah. Hezbollah and Syria of course deny this and attribute the seizure to "piracy." In any event, I think it's appropriate for the post war section for obvious reasons. Any views on the subject? I'd like to establish consensus before inclusion. Respectfully,-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this and related back and forth, Katz isn't "some analysts". Isn't the important point of this Katz piece that the IDF's Northern Command (rather than "some analysts") have concluded that Hezbollah is more cautious today than it was several years ago because of x, y, z ? Just a thought. Also, saying that it bolsters someone elses view is original research/synthesis because it's not in the source. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Also regarding Totten's views, it's entirely unclear why Wikipedia should care about them or what value they add in terms of informative encyclopedic content. Opinions are ten a penny. What is significant about this one ? Sean.hoyland - talk 10:04, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Sean, concerning Somali combatants check this out, UN: Somalian Islamists fought alongside Hezbollah in Lebanon. However, the article is not specific on casualties though it does refer to the sum of $30,000 for Somalis who died in combat. Also, I wouldn't consider Lebanon as a combatant. Aside for putting up some minor resistance to an Israeli commando assault during the Tyre raid, the Lebanese Army did not generally partake in hostilities. I would add the flag of the Somali Islamic Courts (using the above-referenced source) and exclude the Lebanese flag.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 06:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | Archive 49 |
Shock and anxiety are now considered injuries? Because in that case, I believe many tens of thousands of injuries have been excluded from the Lebanese section of the article. What complete nonsense! Only added to trump up the number of injured Israelis. A fucking outrage!
This issue has been discussed before, check the archives. Lack of information for the Lebanese is not a legitimate reason to remove information regarding Israelis. Rami R 13:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
"In Syria, the war was met with intensified chest-thumping toward Israel. "
What is that supposed to mean? I find "chest thumping" to be of very poor taste. Perhaps to be replaced with "boasting" or something less derogatory in nature.( Medfreak ( talk) 15:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC))
How about "sabre rattling"? FlaviaR ( talk) 14:53, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
The statement 'The conflict killed over a thousand people (mostly civilians)' contradicts what is stated under the casualties section. The most notable statements:
Hezbollah casualty figures are difficult to ascertain, with claims and estimates by different groups and individuals ranging from 250 to 1,000. Hezbollah's leadership claims that 250 of their fighters were killed in the conflict,[8] while Israel estimated that its forces had killed 600 Hezbollah fighters.[8][11] In addition, Israel claimed to have the names of 532 dead Hezbollah fighters.[144][dead links] A UN official estimated that 500 Hezbollah fighters had been killed,[10] and Lebanese government officials estimated that up to 500 had been killed.[9] A Stratfor report cited "sources in Lebanon" as estimating the Hezbollah death toll at "more than 700... with many more to go",[145] while British military historian John Keegan estimated the figure could be 'perhaps as many as 1,000' (although this figure isn't based on any solid evidence).[146] A burial count of strictly Shia-Hezbollah soldiers gave a possible death toll of 184.
The Lebanese civilian death toll is difficult to pinpoint as most published figures do not distinguish between civilians and Hezbollah combatants, including those released by the Lebanese government.[11] In addition, Hezbollah fighters can be difficult to identify as many do not wear military uniforms.[11]
Both statements say 'difficult to ascertain' and 'difficult to pinpoint'. 'Mostly civilians' as a statement at the beginning of the article is not conclusive? A change to 'The conflict killed over a thousand people (Hezbollah fighters and civilians)' seems appropriate as it does not lean towards either side of the conflict and respects the inconclusiveness to what the figures are estimated to be.
Again, the sources that are stated in the casualties section show that the numbers are inconclusive. Each source reports different estimates for civilian and fighters casualties. A neutral statement of 'Hezbollah fighters and civilians' would be a just and unbiased amendment to the article.
Hyp96er ( talk) 20:23, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Hyp96er
I have a question. I was wondering should the result of the war be altered to a win for the Hezb/Lebanese side? I'm only floating this across because even though the Vietnamese suffered huge casualties they won the war against the US. Likewise, Nasrallah got Kuntar (who was never going to be given away by the Israelis otherwise). In addition, all of Nasrallah's objectives were achieved, with no loss of territory. Israeli Haaretz, and jpost claims that Hezb has trippled its armoury. These are Israeli sites? Isn't it fair to change the outcome to a win.
<outdent> There is a convincing argument for calling this a bad defeat for Israel (and a lesser case for calling it a victory for Hezbollah), though I'm not sure how to present it. As Norman Finkelstein says "Israel always depended on the fact that its adversaries were stupid, incompetent, blowhards and windbags, and hot air baloons", naming Nasser, Saddam and Arafat. Finkelstein goes on to say that Israelis "have more reason than anyone else to want to find a peaceful resolution to the conflict. Because now, I think, Israel is facing a very serious threat". Nasrallah is totally different from those other Arab leaders, both militarily and in popular style "the universe can blow up, the stars can crash, the planets can collide - you are not getting back those two prisoners. There's going to be a prisoner exchange, you'll not get them back unilaterally from us". His "Victory Parade" speech called for a "strong, capable, just, clean and proud state" and spoke of "reason, planning, organization and armament" as being the key to stop Israeli triggering another Civil War. "This is the secret of the victory we are today celebrating, brothers and sisters." Astoundingly, Israelis trusted Nasrallah more than they did Peretz according to a poll published by YnetNews! That's an earthquake in anyone's language. PR talk 22:05, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
FYI, a list of sources on this subject can be found here: [2]. Cla68 ( talk) 03:47, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
I was going on this page and saw the "allegations of war crimes" of war crime part. I checked my dictionary twice to make sure I wasn't going to say a nonsense and I clearly saw that an allegation was an assertion without factual proof. So here is my question, isn't wikipedia taking side by affirming the accusations against Israel are without factual basis? Amnesty International itself wrote a fairly nasty report toward the Israelite intervention didn't it? Isn't the term accusation more neutral because it only implies there are assertions without claiming there is no factual basis behind them (but at the same time without claiming there were war crimes either)? Matthieu ( talk) 13:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
The casualty list will always be in dispute since few will consider any source reliable, but the article uses an unreliable source when it states that Hezbollah's claims 250 of its soldiers where killed.
As a watcher of Arabic news, I personally remember the news article which mentioned the 70th soldier who died. He died slowly in hospital from injuries about a month after the end of the war. The story was on Al-Jazeera TV, and Al-Manar news.
The best internet reference i have found is from the Daily star, a Lebanese news paper which generally sides with Hezbollah's opposition. In their account of the history of the war, they make the following reference: "The Lebanese Shiite militant group Hezbollah has announced the death in action of 74 combatants while the allied Amal movement lost 17 militants." [1]
The loss of 70 Hezbollah soldiers is the generally accepted figure among Lebanese people. The number is reasonable since Hezbollah soldiers are very rarely visible, and the group celebrates each "Martyrdom" with billboards and honorable burials. Hezbollah leaders have also been know for taking pride in their large number of fighting martyrs from the first Israeli war against Lebanon so their is no reason for the group to start hiding its death tolls at this stage. LebaneseView ( talk) 18:00, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
CAMERA claims otherwise, using media sources: http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=4&x_outlet=12&x_article=1195 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.108.100.180 ( talk) 11:36, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
So how about this we put three estimates on the number of civilians .One if we take hezbullah's extimates (250 hezbullah dead and approximately 950 lebanese civilians dead ) , another if we take the IDF's estimates ( 600 by 600) and the last one the lebanese estimates(500 by 700) . So I think this way we could solve the problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.18.167 ( talk) 00:25, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
The article says that IDF claims that 600 died while Hezbullah claims that 250 died . I would like to ask why in the columns does it say 250 to 700 when it should say 250 to 600 . I mean taking the statfor report into consideration is kind of unprofessional first considering how it is worded " 700 dead with many more to go" it shows that the report is hinting at the killing of more Hezbullah fighters. Second , there are tons of reports out there that would put the number of deaths in other numbers which is why I think we should only keep with the estimates of the two armies .
Another thing I want to say is that the columns only take Israel 's side of the story . What I mean is that it doesn't say how much Hezbullah estimates the IDF number of deaths are . Now you may find it funny but Hezbullah was part of the conflict and if you want to take IDF estimates of Hezbullahs deaths into consideration you should put in Hezbullah's estimate of the IDF's number of deaths. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.51.18.167 ( talk) 21:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Hi, I'm sure this has come up and been discussed at length before but does anyone know/remember the details of how it was decided that this war would be treated as part of the war on terrorism ? It's probably in the archives but there appear to be rather a lot of them. I'm interested in the decision procedure that is normally used to identify an event as being part of the war on terrorism. Are there guidelines for example, criteria that have to met in order for a particular conlict to get the 'part of' header. Is it a systematic-ish process or a consensus following discussion ? Any advice/pointers gratefully received. Thanks Sean.hoyland - talk 16:36, 13 January 2009 (UTC) isn't the war on terrorism a name that was invented by bushy boy . so i guess anything he says is part of is part of it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.255.177 ( talk) 00:48, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
Hello,
I would like someone to reconsider placing Imad Mugniyeh as KIA. When reading this article, it gives the impressio he was killed during the 2006 Lebanon War while in fact he was killing almost two years later being assasinated. Any suggestions? He was not KIA during this war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.96.175.188 ( talk) 12:38, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
This user has added some ridicules claims into the article, and distorted other sentences beyond recognition. All subsequent edits just formatted the text, but didn't deal with the factual problem, or the fact that a sentence made no sense anymore. Please revert this user's edits if they are not factual and properly sourced, and try to look at the substance of a user's edits, not just the bad formatting. Thanks, okedem ( talk) 11:24, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
You need to revise the section stating that UNSCR 1701 calls for the GOL to disarm Hizballah. The wording is ambiguous at best and Hizballah has continually called itself a resistance and not a militia. This "resistance" tag is Hizballah and many GOL officials way of skirting the issue. Either put in the exact wording of UNSCR 1701 which would apply to many Sunni and Christian militias in Lebanon or explain the full context. Either way the statement that 1701 says to disarm Hizballah is a flase statement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.31.19.50 ( talk) 18:16, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Seeing as the removal of a small fact conflicting with the NPOV policy was reinstated twice, I'm putting it up for discussion. "So far, these have killed 29 people and wounded 215—90 of them children." The aforementioned line chooses to make special mentioning of the number of children killed. Despite being sourced, as the latest person to reinstate the fact mentioned, it fails to comply with the following 2 statements/policies found in WP:NPOVD:
The above line puts special attention and emphasis on the number of children killed in an attempt to stir up emotion, rather than provide information. I see no other reason to SPECIFICALLY mention the number of children killed among the casualties.
Key in point is the Afghanistan war article, one of the few modern war articles with no neutrality issues and is a former featured article candidate. The article doesn't make even a single mentioning of the number of children, or women, killed in the conflict.
Also, for those interested in specific casualty information or wishing to provide detailed information, there's the Casualties of the 2006 Lebanon War page. Demetrius Phalereus of Wikipedius ( talk) 13:09, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"... [D]espite official requests from the United Nations, Israel has still not provided maps for the areas it targeted with cluster bombs. This failure is further endangering the lives of Lebanese civilians, particularly children." [7]
Just reverted twice a remove by User:Okedem, concerning Noam Chomsky. His/her edit arguments change, and do not respond to my rv arguments. Also: User talk:Okedem shows repetitive edit wars. So I stop argumenting and reverting. - DePiep ( talk) 22:31, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
"According to the Arts and Humanities Citation Index in 1992, Chomsky was cited as a source more often than any other living scholar during the 1980–92 period, and was the eighth most-cited source."
"... I agree with those above we should only reference an article in this mag and others like FPM if that article's author is notable in his own right (e.g. Chomsky for Counterpunch, Pipes for FPM)." - Merzbow (talk) 05:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
"Since when is Daniel Pipes notable in any way similar to Noam Chomsky? Chomsky has a very wide and international notability in several areas of scholarship and political commentary, whereas Pipes certainly does not... While I get the similarity here on Wikipedia in terms of perceived POV lets not delude ourselves about the notability of minor ideologues (vs. quite major ideologues)." - PelleSmith (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
So I've removed Lebanon from the list of belligerents. Anyone have an argument for why it should be included? Wiktionary defines a belligerent as "1. Engaged in warfare, warring. 2. Eager to go to war, warlike. 3. Of or pertaining to war. 4. (By extension) Aggressively hostile, eager to fight. 5. Acting violently towards others." [9] The actions of the Lebanese army during the conflict just don't match these definitions. I don't think that failing to disarm a rogue militia from attacking another country makes the government forces "warlike" or "aggressively hostile", but maybe other editors have a differing opinion on the subject. ← George [ talk 23:41, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
(out)Lebanon is a belligerent if it allows belligerents to operate freely in its territory. See the 1907 Hague Conventions
[10]. Did they even claim Neutral status?
Instead of reading what "belligerent" means and then using OR to remove things, perhaps you should have read
Neutral_country.
No More Mr Nice Guy (
talk) 20:21, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
This site: [ Nasrallah is scared] claims that Israel is stroger today, than in 2006. Agre22 ( talk) 13:50, 19 August 2009 (UTC)agre22
[copied and pasted from FayssalF's talk page]
You reverted my edits to the Second Lebanon War. Apparently, you thought that they weren't "neutral." I should have you know that my edits were thoroughly researched, cross-referenced, sourced and on some occasions, double sourced.
I'm puzzled as to what you find biased in my edits. I added 6 paragraphs (2 in the "Background" section and four in the "Post War events" section), each dealing with a factual event that ocurred. Please review each paragraph and tell me what you find objectionable and why you found the sources to be unreliable.
In addition, since everything I edited was sourced, the reader can take the information at face value and disregard or accept the information based upon the reader's assessment of the source. However, by deleting my edits, you have substituted the reader's judgnment with your own and have acted as an abusive censor and I believe that you have abused your position as site administrator.
I fully intend on re-posting the reverted edits and adding more edits to this and other articles dealing with the Arab/Israeli conflict to restore some balance and unbiased reporting. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 15:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 15:55, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
Hi there Faysself. I see that you were quick to revert my edits but not so quick to explain why you thought the sourced material violated neutrality. I would like an explanation please. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 00:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 00:09, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
jijutsu is biased but whatever since he is biased towards israel who cares.and to prove that i am not hezbullah here fuck iran and the revolution . so you dont think i have an agenda paranoid dipshit.
Hello Faissalf. Thank you for responding and thanks for the constructive criticisms. Perhaps we can come to agreement and consensus on my recent edits. I think you were a bit trigger happy on the revert button. That said, I am willing to play ball and make some changes in the spirit of conciliation and journalistic integrity.
Re paragraph 1: You claim that the edit reads like an army press release. I served four years in the JAG so that’s just my writing style but I am willing to remove the offending words that gave rise to the reversion.
Re paragraph 2: You claim that the edit sounds “too heroic” and suggested that the source itself was biased. The source was Haaretz, a well respected, left of center Israeli daily, equivalent in style and substance to the New York Times. As far as the incident itself is concerned, it truly was a remarkable feat considering that a lone, relatively inexperienced soldier killed four heavily armed operatives and foiled their plans. By your logic, the Wiki article dealing with the Entebbe rescue mission, where IDF soldiers flew into the heart of Africa to rescue hostages should be reverted because the episode “sounds too heroic.” Nevertheless, in the interest of consensus, I will make changes so that it will sound “less heroic.”
Re Paragraph 3: You cite two objections. First you claim “undue weight” and you expressed similar objections to the remaining three paragraphs. Second, you claimed that blogs are not reliable. I will first address the former objection as it pertains to the remaining three paragraphs. There is a specific section in the Wiki article that deals with “Post Ceasefire Events.” The last entry prior to mine relates to an event that occurred June 30, 2007 nearly a full year after the cessation of hostilities. Moreover, the following paragraph relates to an event that occurred on July 16, 2008 two years after the war. Yet you did not delete these entries, presumably because they were issues that were very germane to the war. It is therefore entirely appropriate for me to include paragraphs 3 trough 6 as edits in the “post ceasefire events” section. As I pointed out, Israel connected Mugniyah to the abduction which sparked the war. Deletion of my edit as “undue weight” without doing the same in connection with the aforementioned edits is hypocritical.
You also objected to citing the blog as a source. The article that I cited from was written by Prof Eyal Zisser, head of the Department of Middle Eastern and African History and a senior research fellow at the Moshe Dayan Center for Middle Eastern and African Studies at Tel Aviv University. He is the author of several books including Syria: Domestic Political Stress and Globalization (2002), Assad's Legacy: Syria in Transition (2000), and Lebanon: The Challenge of Independence (2000). In short, he’s no light weight and I suggest that you let the Wiki readers determine for themselves the reliability of the source. Moreover, that was 1 of 3 sources that I cited for that particular edit and deletion of the entire edit was harsh.
Re Paragraph 4: You objected to the usage of the words “embarrassed” and “apparent.” I will substitute the offending words.
Re paragraph 5: You argued “undue weight.” Please refer to my counter argument above. In addition, the issue is germane as it relates to a violation of UN Security Counsel Resolution 1701, the Resolution that brought an end to the war.
Re paragraph 6: You objected to YouTube as a source. First, that was not the only source that I relied upon. You were so quick to delete the edit that you failed to take note that Ynet was also cited as a source. Second, the incident was videotaped and uploaded to YouTube. I just wanted to give Wiki readers the opportunity to view the video and judge for themselves.
Thank you for your time and consideration and I eagerly await your response. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:17, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
Under the heading "Reactions in the rest of the world" I added some perspectives that were different from the ones already cited. I think it was necessary to restore some balance and perspective. Jiujitsuguy-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 01:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
The sentence "UNIFIL was given an expanded mandate, including the ability to use force to ensure that their area of operations wasn't used for hostile activities, and to resist attempts by force to prevent them from discharging their duties," seemed awkward and out of place where it was, so I moved it to the section of the article dealing with overview. -- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:25, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
Someone with an apparent agenda unjustifiably reverted John Keegan's viewpoint and provided no reason for doing so. Such behavior will be reported if repeated. I uploaded Keegan's viewpoint again.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:05, 18 September 2009 (UTC)
no need for paranoia i removed them cause they were exagerated extremely . And ya so you dont think I am in bed with either of terrorists fuck muslims . Dumbfuck
The targets deemed civilian infrastructure had dual use applications and that is why they were targetd. The term "dual use" is the more appropriate terminology.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 23:16, 22 September 2009 (UTC)
According to Naharnet, a Lebanese daily, Hezbollah uses Beirut airport to smuggle weapons. I've enclosed the link.
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/0/BD506C70EC46346CC225752B004375CA?OpenDocument
I think it should be changed to "had" but I'll leave it to your judgment.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 02:19, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
It stands to reason that if they are using the airport to smuggle weapons in 2008, after UNSC Resolution 1701, while under the microscope, they almost certainly used it prior to 2006 when they had a lot more freedom of action. In fact, one of the reasons for the March 14, 2008 violence was because the Lebanese govt. wanted to exercise its authority and fired the airport chief of security, who was a Hezbollah ally. For what its worth, I think you made the correct choice changing it to "had."-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 04:12, 23 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I was wondering, is worldnetdaily considered a reliable source according to Wikipedia; Since it is the source used when mentioning the Iranian deaths? Also, the source cited when mentioning the PFLP is the Jerusalem Post and it doesn't mention that the PFLP were engaged in combat against the IDF. It says that the IDF bombed their bases. So should the PFLP be included in the list of belligrents? Knight Prince - Sage Veritas ( talk) 02:21, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to add a sentence or two on the seizure of the Francop by IDF commandos in the post war section. The Francop was carrying close to 500 tons of Iranian weapons and munitions including 3,000 rockets. Israel claims that the weapons were slated for Hezbollah. Hezbollah and Syria of course deny this and attribute the seizure to "piracy." In any event, I think it's appropriate for the post war section for obvious reasons. Any views on the subject? I'd like to establish consensus before inclusion. Respectfully,-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 17:05, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Regarding this and related back and forth, Katz isn't "some analysts". Isn't the important point of this Katz piece that the IDF's Northern Command (rather than "some analysts") have concluded that Hezbollah is more cautious today than it was several years ago because of x, y, z ? Just a thought. Also, saying that it bolsters someone elses view is original research/synthesis because it's not in the source. Sean.hoyland - talk 09:43, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Also regarding Totten's views, it's entirely unclear why Wikipedia should care about them or what value they add in terms of informative encyclopedic content. Opinions are ten a penny. What is significant about this one ? Sean.hoyland - talk 10:04, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Sean, concerning Somali combatants check this out, UN: Somalian Islamists fought alongside Hezbollah in Lebanon. However, the article is not specific on casualties though it does refer to the sum of $30,000 for Somalis who died in combat. Also, I wouldn't consider Lebanon as a combatant. Aside for putting up some minor resistance to an Israeli commando assault during the Tyre raid, the Lebanese Army did not generally partake in hostilities. I would add the flag of the Somali Islamic Courts (using the above-referenced source) and exclude the Lebanese flag.-- Jiujitsuguy ( talk) 06:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)