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This article is definitely written from an anti-Russian PoV. It has several strong statements needing to be referenced. I have marked them with {{fact}}. Furthermore, you can't put that Putin reportedly met with some people; either he did or he did not; if he did, please provide a reference. (Apparently, the ones currently provided do not seem sufficient to remove the reportedly) Errabee 23:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. I restored the POV tag. The article carefully omits any mention of the torrent of personal attacks to which Russia and its leadership have been subjected over the previous years. From each source presented on the page, only the anti-Russian rhetoric finds its way to the article. For instance, the notorious data about the schools (more than suspect in itself) leads to the page which says that "Lavrov said Georgia was channelling funds from organised crime in Russia into a slush fund to buy weapons in a massive military build-up directed at the Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia." I can't find any mention of this in the article. In short, the current pattern of editing the page is a fine example of tendentious editing which is better avoided. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla also needs to know know that wikipedia is not a tool for propaganda. All the facts can be documented by the BBC and CNN [ [4]] [ [5]] and even Al Jazeera too:) [ [6]]. Those guys were "Spies" and Russia did not have any Casus Belli to blockade or invade Georgia. Putin compared Georgian govt with Stalin and Beria. Well, evrybody knows that Georgia is not a country wich has a KGB presdident. Sosomk 15:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili(Stalin) was from Georgia. Dudtz 10/5/06 6:04 PM EST
I see Georgian-Russian relations are better than ever, as shown by the comments on this talk page. *rolls eyes* — Khoi khoi 02:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The references "neutrality disputed" in the text are of no use. For example, consider "Both sides claim the other party has engaged in inflammatory rhetoric against each the other." This sentance in itself is absolutely neutral to any sane person, or at least to any non-Russian and non-Georgian sane person. One might wish to elaborate by giving examples. If the examples would be one-sided, clearly there would be a doubt of neutrality. But after this sentance there is no example, so it is neutral.
The same holds for most other "neutrality tags". I suggest that a non-Russian and non-Georgian who has participated in the editing and knows more about the issue, remove all NPOV tags that are not clearly motivated. I removed the NPOV tag from the article as a whole, because I don't think Russians and Georgians who can not control sufficiently their emotions are entitled to deprive the others from knowing the facts. If you know something you think is not there, add it please, we will be happiy to learn it, but don't place NPOV tags without addressing every and each issue you dispute.
NPOV tags are reserved for articles which are obviously uni-lateral or racist or etc, otherwise there should be a clear long list of "grevances" in order to place such a tag. What if I put a NPOV tag to all articles related to Chemistry based on tha fact that I once got a bad grade in Chemistry. It would be ridiculous.
Yes, "those guys were Spies", but did Georgia have jurisdiction over them? -- Petri Krohn 08:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Due to further escalation of the crisis and freeing of Russian officers arrested, this article should be renamed to a Georgia-Russia relations crisis, 2006 or something like that.-- 87.251.146.68 12:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to format the dates in the timeline in this article and I noted that when I wanted to edit the section there is a lot more in the textarea field than there is on the page. I don't know what's wrong with the formatting of the section that would make it that it doesn't show up in the article. I don't see any html comment tags or something like that. Maybe someone who knows more about it can have a look? Thanks. BigBen212 16:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Im disputing this section because of its strong POV statements, un-reliable data, sources which are not neutral. I don’t speak Russian but I can tell that those numbers are not based on any official statistics or were conformed as such. Suggestion: let’s use neutral sources or others to back up those claims (preferably in English due to the fact that this is an English Wikipedia and most of us can not conform the sources), Most of the statements used numerous sources on this article. Avoid strong POV statements and implement NPOV policy fully. Until this, the tag will remain. Thanks for your contributions and understanding. Ldingley 22:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Tyurkin said that the majority of Georgians living in Russia are not enregistered anywhere. He said they will be deported home, to their mothers and families, and classed this mission as humanitarian. [8] -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of its accuracy, I fail to see how any of the information from "Background information" section is relevant to the article. -- Itinerant1 15:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
For the love of all that's holy, this title sounds amateurish and rushed. Move it to 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage scandal or 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage controversy or something like that. -- «klaus»
The BBC coverage of this dispute seems particularly pro-Georgian, without giving enough detail to the Russian side. The recent article, "Russia turns screw on Georgia", claims President Vladimir Putin's official spokesman, Dmitri Peskov, suggested that the Georgian military was being built up with profits from two Georgian restaurants in Russia. This seems a little silly, and I can't imagine that this is truly an official position of the Russian government. Georgia is getting closer to being a full member of NATO. If it's being militarized, the money is coming from NATO, not the restaurant industry.
According to the BBC, he also claimed the conflict has nothing to do with the arrest of the alleged spies, but came as a result of "a history of hostile behaviour by Georgia". Unfortunately, the article doesn't give any details about this history. All it describes is the wine embargo (again, Russia's side.) Can anyone fill in the blanks on this? If Russia is not simply trying to push its influence on Georgia, why are these things happening?
Thanks, TheMightyQuill 04:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please scroll up: "Lavrov said Georgia was channelling funds from organised crime in Russia into a slush fund to buy weapons in a massive military build-up directed at the Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia." BBC's egregious anti-Russian rhetoric has been discussed in Wikipedia on numerous occasions. It's better not to cite such sources as BBC or Le Monde, if you aim at the even-handed coverage of contemporary Russia. What BBC calls "two restaurants" were huge "entertainment complexes" in Moscow downtown, a Russian Las Vegas, so to speak. The officials say that the major casinos of Moscow are run by the Georgian Mafia, who then transfers their gains to Saakashvili for militarizing the country. In other words, the baby took to biting the breast he feeds from. -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This stuff is happening because Georgia is being a dick and is working to undermine Russia's strategic position in the world economy and polytics. -- 169.232.125.12 05:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the Background Information section of the article. For example the following line: "Unofficial estimations amount the annual monetary transfers to Georgia to a total of 2 billion dollars, exceeding the annual US help of 1.5 billion dollars." does not specify what "annual monetary transfers" are exactly. I'm assuming it's monetary remittance from Georgians living in Russia sent to relatives living in Georgia, but the sentance is not specific on that. One could assume, for example, that the $2 bln ammount is total currency exchange or economic trade between the two countries.
Also the words "the annual US help" are ambiguous: what does "US help" mean exactly: help from US government, help from US humanitarian ogranizations, or is it, again, monetary remittance from Georgians living in the US sent to relatives living in Georgia?
Whoever (or someone else) who wrote that section please "unambiguate" the information.
Also, the last two "facts" ("18% of Georgian foreign trade is being handled with Russia making it the most important Georgian trade partner." and "The Georgian share of Russian foreign trade makes up 0.5%.") are written to give the impression of how important Russia is for Georgian economy, and how insignificant is Georgia for Russian economy. Obviously, Russia is much bigger coutry than Georgia in every aspect (area, population, etc.), so the numbers will look disproportional. Also, I"m not sure where the author got that 18% figure from, CIA Worldbook page on Georgia says following, making Russia third most important Georgian trade partner:
Exports - partners: US 16.1%, Turkey 15.5%, Russia 12.3%, Turkmenistan 11.3% (2005)
-- Berkut 05:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please scroll up. Only a small portion of the Georgians living in Russia is officially registered and may be accounted for, so there is no point in discussing the official figures. What background info is really missing is the local elections. Kober carefully purged all mention of them. As best I know, the elections illustrate the political alignment of Saaskashvili, who proudly reported that he consulted Condoleezza Rice about their timing. The Channel One reports that the votes of electors who failed to turn up are automatically given to the "majority party", but I'm not sure whether such nonsense may really be true. -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The 1.5 billion figure does not refer to US annual help. It is the total amount received by Georgia from United States since 1991. See here [9] and here [10] In fact, Strana.ru never says that it's an annual figure. It says: "... exceeds direct aid from USA which is estimated to be around 1.5 billion dollars." -- Itinerant1 18:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
User:Berkut deleted the word " paraded" from the image caption with this comment:
The words "paraded" and "public humiliation" where used by BBC news. Here are some sources:
-- Petri Krohn 06:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that characterization of the Moscow Helsinki Group as a "Russian human rights organization" is appropriate. For the last decade, Mrs. Alekseyeva's establishment has been better known as a mouthpiece of anti-Russian rhetoric. It derives its funding from the same sources as the Saakashvili administration does - from the bellicose Bush administration. -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Some 'human rights organizations'(the Moscow Helsinki group for example) are just propaganda tools.Nothing more. Sosomk,you made a mistake in your post:Chechnya is not (and has never been) an independent country,unlike Estonia,Lithuania,Ukraine,Belarus,etc. Dimts 17:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
But that wasn't Russia's policy (just the idea of several Russian commanders).On the other hand,the Chechen rebels conducted ethnic cleansing of Russians and other minorities all around 'Ichkeria'. Dimts 08:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla, could please explain why an obscure Russian website is supposed to be more neutral than the CIS factbook? Additionally, Strana.ru is not verifiable for non-Russian speaking Wikipedians. -- Kober 15:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
And Strana.Ru portraysmore Russian nationalist POV. Sosomk 15:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need that many? We don't have to reference every sentence. I'm going to remove some from the timeline since most of it is not controversial / disputable... Óðinn 19:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Where is the proof that it added to the espionage scandal. The situation was not even mentioned there. Publically, at least. The references that are used currently in no way assert any connection. Óðinn 20:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I still have a general concern about the passage in the article quoting President Saakashvili as allegedly describing Russia as "a wild tribe of Huns." If this were true, certainly all news media would have caught that phrase. So far, the article cites only a Russian news website which can hardly be considered neutral. I failed to find any other source claiming the same. Hence the tag. -- Kober 19:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The speech was covered by Polish media. It did not say Russians are Huns, which would indeed be inappropriate, only compared bolsheviks to Huns when pointing out the similarities in Polish and Georgian history during the interbellum. I can't really say if the Russian media acted with malice aforethought on this or if it's simply a linguistic issue or a simplification.
Specifically he said: "[in 1920] Georgia was to weak and and succumbed to the bolsheviks while Poland withstood this Hunnish invasion" (referring to the Polish-bolshevik war). Here's a link (in Polish) [11].
If this article does not mention the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline then the reader will never understand why the US is involved in Georgia and why the conflict with Russia is happening.
Elk Salmon, please explain your reasoning more clearly. All the news media reported that the rally was held against the crackdown on ethnic Georgians and the murder of Polytkovskaya. See for example this website. -- Kober 08:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, that sign on the "school" is irrelevant. If the fact was denied by officials, why some strange photo should be left in place? I was bold and removed it. Feel free and tell me why I'm wrong. -- Akral 14:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please don't accuse me of revert warring. Having scanned your recent contributions, I see that they are limited to owning this article and several related entries. On the contrary, I made only two edits on the subject in several days. If you persevere in fending off any attempts to NPOV the article, I'll have to report you and both of your friends for tendentious and disruptive editing. Please take care, Ghirla -трёп- 08:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Alex. Correct decision, indeed! -- Kober 14:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As requested by User:Ldingley, I have protected the page, so you guys can cool down a little bit and discuss the argument. I will unprotect the article in a few hours - it is a current event after all. In fact I myself wanted to link Benukidze's interview that might be relevant. Please find the solution fast abakharev 14:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the photo can be kept. I remember reading some explanation from the Russian Ministry for Defence that with the withdrawal of the troops they would have to significantly scale down the school and so it would probably be closed for the locals, but they agree to teach children until the endof the school year. The immediate bun on local children was a misunderstanding or something - tommorrow I will find the references. I have no problems with the photo abakharev 15:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
According to this source (Azerbaijan news), Russian Embassy in Georgia denied reports of the order to expell Georgian children and fire Georgian teachers at school N9. According to Ivan Volynkin (Embassy attorney), embassy is investigating the details of the incident at school N9, and tries to determine whose initiative that was to deny the Georgian children and teachers access to the school. I think this source is neutral. ( Igny 19:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC))
I say this again, today is October 13 and Georgian kids are still out of School. None of them were allowed back. You have failed to present reliable, neutral sources on claims that Russia has denied this action.
Some facts: On October 4th and 5th
I think I can provide sources to back up each of the above claims. Please post your opinions (with reference to the list of claims if needed). Which of the above facts do you oppose and why? My POV is that the photo is very much relevant to the conflict. ( Igny 15:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC))
Nevertheless, BBC is a reputable publisher and the fact that it published a photo makes it notable, unlike if it was published by some blogger. At the same time the event is indeed strange. A while ago I ammended the caption to say "BBC published a picture". Other media use BBC images but the caption needs to say that this was a BBC photo. As such, I will revert this edit.
Elk, I suggest you leave it as is because the current caption is entirely factual. It does not say that the sign was posted. It says that BBC published a photo. You can't deny that. Let's just leave it as is. -- Irpen 00:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Estonia's parliament has passed a declaration "In connection with the situation of the relationship between Georgia and Russia" (17. Oct 2006. 10:58 (local time)) 73 deputies of all factions voted in favour, 1 (Centre Party member) against. It has been reported that the declaration “supports strengthening democracy in Georgia and condemns the endeavours by the Russian Federation to surpress Georgia's intentions by using economic sanctions and threats of [using] force.” Constanz - Talk 13:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober and Co, why don't you report this episode, if you are so concerned about the purported oppression of Georgian boys in Russian schools? -- Ghirla -трёп- 10:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually,crimes are often commited by "ethnic criminal groups" (especually in the EU).Don't believe me?Ask any German,Briton,Italian,etc.In Germany policemen even learn Albanian.And does anybody know why? Dimts 18:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Wait a sec, if Georgia seceded from Russia, why can't Abhazia and Ossetia use the same logic and secede from Georgia? It has been a part of Russia or Russian Empire, or USSR, or whatever else the Russians will raname their land, what is it with the Russians changing names - St. Petersburg, Petrograd, Leningrad, anyways why does Georgia have to use military to keep these entities within it's borders, while complaining of Russia's use of force? Furthermore, I hope this doesn't happen, but if a war between Russia and Georgia does break out, the only way Georgia's military will be able to survive, is lots of funding from the USA, which means my tax dollars. Also, the Chechnya-Russia-Georgia relations are not at all described in this article, could anyone care to comment what role the Chechen crisis played? Could it be that Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, and Pres. Putin wants a little revenge for the support? Ok well maybe not so little. As for Estonia, it's kinda funny, that's like Djibouti saying: "we believe that the Russo-Georgian conflict is unfounded" why is that even mentioned in the article? If UK and France was to say that, it'd be a whole different ball game. that's like Djibouti saying: "we believe that the Russo-Georgian conflict is unfounded" why is that even mentioned in the article? Point I am making is, since I'll be a USA taxpayer for a long time, why should my tax money even think about going towards this conflict. I mean Russia's big, and it has so many countries to pick on, why pick on Georgia? Is it the only ex-soviet state that has oil? If you think so, see Kazakstan. It's just not making too much sense. Thanks, User ABC.
One question,Kober.How do you know that the results will be dissapointing for the de-facto goverment of Abkhazia?Thousands of Abkhazians died in the war for independence.Then why did they fight for independance in 1993?To reunite with Georgia 15 years later?Where's the logic?!I'm afraid the results will be dissapointing for Tbilisi.But I'm sure the "democratic" regime of Saakashwilli will proclaim such elections "illegitimate". Dimts 12:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
They have the right to live and make decisions of their homeland's future.I'm not arguing on that one.But have forgotten the ethnic majority of Abkhazia (Abkhazians).Are you sure they would want to reunite with Georgia (important:and maybe even get cleansed by Saakashwilli's butchers).Let's not forget the rights of Abkhazians. Dimts 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
You misunderstood me yet again.I didn't call the people of Georgia "butchers".I do not have anything against Georgians.Under the word "butchers" I've described Saakashwilli's henchmen who are doing all what they can to start a new full-scale war in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.I hope I've cleared the problem.
P.S I don't understand what's the deal with the large amount of pro-Saakashwilli propaganda in Georgia related articles?!Shouldn't it be NPOV? Dimts 16:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It can't be NPOV, cause Saakaashivili rigged the elections. Note: Georgia did not have any of these problems with Shevarnadze, cause that guy knew how to stay neutral. Saakaashivili it seems wants glory, and wants American tax dollars paying for it. After the defeat of the much tougher Cechechen rebels, does anyone really think that Georgia will hold off Russia without American and/or European aid? I mean the Georgians couldn't even beat the Abhazians, and the Russians are much tougher. I also like how Kober avoids the questions he/she is asked, and claims everyone who doesn't agree with his/her 'neutral' POV as xenophobic. Also, Dimts has a good point - if the ethnic majority of Abhazia isn't Abhazians, why did they call it Abhazia? Usually names exist for a reason. Also, Kober you seemed to brilliantly avoid answering any questions, such as, umm, why should American/EU dollars go for defense of Georgia?
Thanks, User ABC
Kober,I forgot to mention YOUR xenophobic statetment.You called the Georgians in Abkhazia the democratic majority.And what about Abkhazians?!You don't take them for people?Are they cannibals,in your opinion?Do you think they're working for Osama bin Laden?Or maybe they're ploting to take over the world? Dimts 12:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I AM NOT trying to discredit you and I am not stalking you.Your post is located in this section (read:it was a reply to my post). Dimts 13:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, if I ever have to fight a war, I sincerely hope that you would be the opposing general. Your knowledge of military history is so appalling, that you shouldn't even bother commenting on it, until you read more books on what it is. You claim, and I qoute: "Thirdly, when the US and Western Europe turned a blind eye to the Soviet occupation of Georgia (and not only of Georgia, of course), they soon received the "evil empire" in the midst of Europe". Umm, due to people like you, I kinda want to go back in time and ask the Red Army not to liberate certain parts from Nazi Germany, let Hitler extreminate them. The Western Europe couldn't do anything against the Red Army, and the US and USSR had those thingys called nuclear weapons, ever heard of those? Well should US challenge the USSR's hegemony against Gerogia, (which BTW Moscow NEVER recognized as an independent country, unless it was one of those governments that lasted about a month,) and risk proviking another war with the USSR, or should they sit back behind the Iron Curtain waiting for the USSR to mess up; they did the latter, and it worked. The US and Western Europe couldn't challegen the Soviet Union's hegemony in that area - Duh! If you knew even a bit of military history, even the amount of Baldrick (character in Blackadder IV) you would not have made that statement. I'm sorry, but when you say something that re-interprets a fact, say 1+1=3, which is what you just did, I kinda tend to respond. As for the Encyclopedia Britannica, again Kober here you have to read history, the UK and USSR were at odds, and Churchill even called Stalin the devil, (although he later called Hitler worse then the devil, which is theologically impossible, but Churchill...) so I would think Britannica would be slightly biased against Stalin, just a tad. Furthermore Stalin's ethnic clensing affected everyone, and killed more Russians than any other people! His 5 year plans were a great help, but his purges were mostly hurting the Russians, see that one thingy called statistics. Also, the West (Western Europe and US) 'recieved' the 'evil empire' because they chose to fight it, it was Churchill who made the first 'war' speech, and Truman who cut rations of food to the USSR, while Stalin was just fortifying his borders. Of course Stalin then broke a ton of promises, and declared the West and 'evil empire' and so it began... The sad part is that the Soviet, British and our boys (American troops) got along really well, (not counting crazy Patton) and we could've built a better world, but 'unilateralism' and no one willing to compromise, leads to Cold Wars.
Also if Saakaashivili didn't rig the election, why did he accuse the opposition of staging a revolution? Doesn't he know that those things only work if the vast majority of the nation, hate their leader? Not simply disagree with the policies, but HATE their leader? I mean if he really won the election, he has nothing to worry about.
Also, saying that the West turned a blind eye to Georgia in the Cold War is like saying that the Red and Allied Armies turned a blind eye to Aushwitz until 1944. That's B/S cause they couldn't do anything about it. So Kober, I think I'll be calling my representative, (yes we actually have freedom of speech in the USA, unlike that in Georgia, where you're either pro. one party or a rebel) and asking him to not support the Georgian dictatorship in its struggle to subjugate the Abkhaz people, and those of Ossetia, maybe even the Ingush people too.
User ABC
Ingy, you are 100 percent right! I am sorry that I did not clarify earlier, that I believed that Saakaashvili Administration, and not the Georgian people are to blame for this conflict. If you were at Georgia's helm, I strongly doubt that there would be a problem.
User ABC
Igny,nobody's blaming Georgians.That whole saga is the fault of Saakashvili and his henchmen. Dimts 16:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Too many citations. 76.19.173.43 11:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
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This article is definitely written from an anti-Russian PoV. It has several strong statements needing to be referenced. I have marked them with {{fact}}. Furthermore, you can't put that Putin reportedly met with some people; either he did or he did not; if he did, please provide a reference. (Apparently, the ones currently provided do not seem sufficient to remove the reportedly) Errabee 23:48, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please remember that Wikipedia is not a propaganda machine. I restored the POV tag. The article carefully omits any mention of the torrent of personal attacks to which Russia and its leadership have been subjected over the previous years. From each source presented on the page, only the anti-Russian rhetoric finds its way to the article. For instance, the notorious data about the schools (more than suspect in itself) leads to the page which says that "Lavrov said Georgia was channelling funds from organised crime in Russia into a slush fund to buy weapons in a massive military build-up directed at the Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia." I can't find any mention of this in the article. In short, the current pattern of editing the page is a fine example of tendentious editing which is better avoided. -- Ghirla -трёп- 12:21, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla also needs to know know that wikipedia is not a tool for propaganda. All the facts can be documented by the BBC and CNN [ [4]] [ [5]] and even Al Jazeera too:) [ [6]]. Those guys were "Spies" and Russia did not have any Casus Belli to blockade or invade Georgia. Putin compared Georgian govt with Stalin and Beria. Well, evrybody knows that Georgia is not a country wich has a KGB presdident. Sosomk 15:50, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Joseph Vissarionovich Dzhugashvili(Stalin) was from Georgia. Dudtz 10/5/06 6:04 PM EST
I see Georgian-Russian relations are better than ever, as shown by the comments on this talk page. *rolls eyes* — Khoi khoi 02:01, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
The references "neutrality disputed" in the text are of no use. For example, consider "Both sides claim the other party has engaged in inflammatory rhetoric against each the other." This sentance in itself is absolutely neutral to any sane person, or at least to any non-Russian and non-Georgian sane person. One might wish to elaborate by giving examples. If the examples would be one-sided, clearly there would be a doubt of neutrality. But after this sentance there is no example, so it is neutral.
The same holds for most other "neutrality tags". I suggest that a non-Russian and non-Georgian who has participated in the editing and knows more about the issue, remove all NPOV tags that are not clearly motivated. I removed the NPOV tag from the article as a whole, because I don't think Russians and Georgians who can not control sufficiently their emotions are entitled to deprive the others from knowing the facts. If you know something you think is not there, add it please, we will be happiy to learn it, but don't place NPOV tags without addressing every and each issue you dispute.
NPOV tags are reserved for articles which are obviously uni-lateral or racist or etc, otherwise there should be a clear long list of "grevances" in order to place such a tag. What if I put a NPOV tag to all articles related to Chemistry based on tha fact that I once got a bad grade in Chemistry. It would be ridiculous.
Yes, "those guys were Spies", but did Georgia have jurisdiction over them? -- Petri Krohn 08:57, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Due to further escalation of the crisis and freeing of Russian officers arrested, this article should be renamed to a Georgia-Russia relations crisis, 2006 or something like that.-- 87.251.146.68 12:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
I wanted to format the dates in the timeline in this article and I noted that when I wanted to edit the section there is a lot more in the textarea field than there is on the page. I don't know what's wrong with the formatting of the section that would make it that it doesn't show up in the article. I don't see any html comment tags or something like that. Maybe someone who knows more about it can have a look? Thanks. BigBen212 16:33, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Im disputing this section because of its strong POV statements, un-reliable data, sources which are not neutral. I don’t speak Russian but I can tell that those numbers are not based on any official statistics or were conformed as such. Suggestion: let’s use neutral sources or others to back up those claims (preferably in English due to the fact that this is an English Wikipedia and most of us can not conform the sources), Most of the statements used numerous sources on this article. Avoid strong POV statements and implement NPOV policy fully. Until this, the tag will remain. Thanks for your contributions and understanding. Ldingley 22:08, 5 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Tyurkin said that the majority of Georgians living in Russia are not enregistered anywhere. He said they will be deported home, to their mothers and families, and classed this mission as humanitarian. [8] -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:38, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of its accuracy, I fail to see how any of the information from "Background information" section is relevant to the article. -- Itinerant1 15:51, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
For the love of all that's holy, this title sounds amateurish and rushed. Move it to 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage scandal or 2006 Georgian-Russian espionage controversy or something like that. -- «klaus»
The BBC coverage of this dispute seems particularly pro-Georgian, without giving enough detail to the Russian side. The recent article, "Russia turns screw on Georgia", claims President Vladimir Putin's official spokesman, Dmitri Peskov, suggested that the Georgian military was being built up with profits from two Georgian restaurants in Russia. This seems a little silly, and I can't imagine that this is truly an official position of the Russian government. Georgia is getting closer to being a full member of NATO. If it's being militarized, the money is coming from NATO, not the restaurant industry.
According to the BBC, he also claimed the conflict has nothing to do with the arrest of the alleged spies, but came as a result of "a history of hostile behaviour by Georgia". Unfortunately, the article doesn't give any details about this history. All it describes is the wine embargo (again, Russia's side.) Can anyone fill in the blanks on this? If Russia is not simply trying to push its influence on Georgia, why are these things happening?
Thanks, TheMightyQuill 04:49, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please scroll up: "Lavrov said Georgia was channelling funds from organised crime in Russia into a slush fund to buy weapons in a massive military build-up directed at the Georgian breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia." BBC's egregious anti-Russian rhetoric has been discussed in Wikipedia on numerous occasions. It's better not to cite such sources as BBC or Le Monde, if you aim at the even-handed coverage of contemporary Russia. What BBC calls "two restaurants" were huge "entertainment complexes" in Moscow downtown, a Russian Las Vegas, so to speak. The officials say that the major casinos of Moscow are run by the Georgian Mafia, who then transfers their gains to Saakashvili for militarizing the country. In other words, the baby took to biting the breast he feeds from. -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
This stuff is happening because Georgia is being a dick and is working to undermine Russia's strategic position in the world economy and polytics. -- 169.232.125.12 05:45, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I have a problem with the Background Information section of the article. For example the following line: "Unofficial estimations amount the annual monetary transfers to Georgia to a total of 2 billion dollars, exceeding the annual US help of 1.5 billion dollars." does not specify what "annual monetary transfers" are exactly. I'm assuming it's monetary remittance from Georgians living in Russia sent to relatives living in Georgia, but the sentance is not specific on that. One could assume, for example, that the $2 bln ammount is total currency exchange or economic trade between the two countries.
Also the words "the annual US help" are ambiguous: what does "US help" mean exactly: help from US government, help from US humanitarian ogranizations, or is it, again, monetary remittance from Georgians living in the US sent to relatives living in Georgia?
Whoever (or someone else) who wrote that section please "unambiguate" the information.
Also, the last two "facts" ("18% of Georgian foreign trade is being handled with Russia making it the most important Georgian trade partner." and "The Georgian share of Russian foreign trade makes up 0.5%.") are written to give the impression of how important Russia is for Georgian economy, and how insignificant is Georgia for Russian economy. Obviously, Russia is much bigger coutry than Georgia in every aspect (area, population, etc.), so the numbers will look disproportional. Also, I"m not sure where the author got that 18% figure from, CIA Worldbook page on Georgia says following, making Russia third most important Georgian trade partner:
Exports - partners: US 16.1%, Turkey 15.5%, Russia 12.3%, Turkmenistan 11.3% (2005)
-- Berkut 05:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Please scroll up. Only a small portion of the Georgians living in Russia is officially registered and may be accounted for, so there is no point in discussing the official figures. What background info is really missing is the local elections. Kober carefully purged all mention of them. As best I know, the elections illustrate the political alignment of Saaskashvili, who proudly reported that he consulted Condoleezza Rice about their timing. The Channel One reports that the votes of electors who failed to turn up are automatically given to the "majority party", but I'm not sure whether such nonsense may really be true. -- Ghirla -трёп- 08:59, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
The 1.5 billion figure does not refer to US annual help. It is the total amount received by Georgia from United States since 1991. See here [9] and here [10] In fact, Strana.ru never says that it's an annual figure. It says: "... exceeds direct aid from USA which is estimated to be around 1.5 billion dollars." -- Itinerant1 18:00, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
User:Berkut deleted the word " paraded" from the image caption with this comment:
The words "paraded" and "public humiliation" where used by BBC news. Here are some sources:
-- Petri Krohn 06:52, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that characterization of the Moscow Helsinki Group as a "Russian human rights organization" is appropriate. For the last decade, Mrs. Alekseyeva's establishment has been better known as a mouthpiece of anti-Russian rhetoric. It derives its funding from the same sources as the Saakashvili administration does - from the bellicose Bush administration. -- Ghirla -трёп- 09:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Some 'human rights organizations'(the Moscow Helsinki group for example) are just propaganda tools.Nothing more. Sosomk,you made a mistake in your post:Chechnya is not (and has never been) an independent country,unlike Estonia,Lithuania,Ukraine,Belarus,etc. Dimts 17:32, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
But that wasn't Russia's policy (just the idea of several Russian commanders).On the other hand,the Chechen rebels conducted ethnic cleansing of Russians and other minorities all around 'Ichkeria'. Dimts 08:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
Ghirla, could please explain why an obscure Russian website is supposed to be more neutral than the CIS factbook? Additionally, Strana.ru is not verifiable for non-Russian speaking Wikipedians. -- Kober 15:29, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
And Strana.Ru portraysmore Russian nationalist POV. Sosomk 15:40, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Do we really need that many? We don't have to reference every sentence. I'm going to remove some from the timeline since most of it is not controversial / disputable... Óðinn 19:16, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Where is the proof that it added to the espionage scandal. The situation was not even mentioned there. Publically, at least. The references that are used currently in no way assert any connection. Óðinn 20:08, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
I still have a general concern about the passage in the article quoting President Saakashvili as allegedly describing Russia as "a wild tribe of Huns." If this were true, certainly all news media would have caught that phrase. So far, the article cites only a Russian news website which can hardly be considered neutral. I failed to find any other source claiming the same. Hence the tag. -- Kober 19:12, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
The speech was covered by Polish media. It did not say Russians are Huns, which would indeed be inappropriate, only compared bolsheviks to Huns when pointing out the similarities in Polish and Georgian history during the interbellum. I can't really say if the Russian media acted with malice aforethought on this or if it's simply a linguistic issue or a simplification.
Specifically he said: "[in 1920] Georgia was to weak and and succumbed to the bolsheviks while Poland withstood this Hunnish invasion" (referring to the Polish-bolshevik war). Here's a link (in Polish) [11].
If this article does not mention the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline then the reader will never understand why the US is involved in Georgia and why the conflict with Russia is happening.
Elk Salmon, please explain your reasoning more clearly. All the news media reported that the rally was held against the crackdown on ethnic Georgians and the murder of Polytkovskaya. See for example this website. -- Kober 08:22, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, that sign on the "school" is irrelevant. If the fact was denied by officials, why some strange photo should be left in place? I was bold and removed it. Feel free and tell me why I'm wrong. -- Akral 14:17, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, please don't accuse me of revert warring. Having scanned your recent contributions, I see that they are limited to owning this article and several related entries. On the contrary, I made only two edits on the subject in several days. If you persevere in fending off any attempts to NPOV the article, I'll have to report you and both of your friends for tendentious and disruptive editing. Please take care, Ghirla -трёп- 08:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Alex. Correct decision, indeed! -- Kober 14:45, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
As requested by User:Ldingley, I have protected the page, so you guys can cool down a little bit and discuss the argument. I will unprotect the article in a few hours - it is a current event after all. In fact I myself wanted to link Benukidze's interview that might be relevant. Please find the solution fast abakharev 14:46, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
I think the photo can be kept. I remember reading some explanation from the Russian Ministry for Defence that with the withdrawal of the troops they would have to significantly scale down the school and so it would probably be closed for the locals, but they agree to teach children until the endof the school year. The immediate bun on local children was a misunderstanding or something - tommorrow I will find the references. I have no problems with the photo abakharev 15:30, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
According to this source (Azerbaijan news), Russian Embassy in Georgia denied reports of the order to expell Georgian children and fire Georgian teachers at school N9. According to Ivan Volynkin (Embassy attorney), embassy is investigating the details of the incident at school N9, and tries to determine whose initiative that was to deny the Georgian children and teachers access to the school. I think this source is neutral. ( Igny 19:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC))
I say this again, today is October 13 and Georgian kids are still out of School. None of them were allowed back. You have failed to present reliable, neutral sources on claims that Russia has denied this action.
Some facts: On October 4th and 5th
I think I can provide sources to back up each of the above claims. Please post your opinions (with reference to the list of claims if needed). Which of the above facts do you oppose and why? My POV is that the photo is very much relevant to the conflict. ( Igny 15:36, 13 October 2006 (UTC))
Nevertheless, BBC is a reputable publisher and the fact that it published a photo makes it notable, unlike if it was published by some blogger. At the same time the event is indeed strange. A while ago I ammended the caption to say "BBC published a picture". Other media use BBC images but the caption needs to say that this was a BBC photo. As such, I will revert this edit.
Elk, I suggest you leave it as is because the current caption is entirely factual. It does not say that the sign was posted. It says that BBC published a photo. You can't deny that. Let's just leave it as is. -- Irpen 00:13, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
Estonia's parliament has passed a declaration "In connection with the situation of the relationship between Georgia and Russia" (17. Oct 2006. 10:58 (local time)) 73 deputies of all factions voted in favour, 1 (Centre Party member) against. It has been reported that the declaration “supports strengthening democracy in Georgia and condemns the endeavours by the Russian Federation to surpress Georgia's intentions by using economic sanctions and threats of [using] force.” Constanz - Talk 13:30, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober and Co, why don't you report this episode, if you are so concerned about the purported oppression of Georgian boys in Russian schools? -- Ghirla -трёп- 10:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Actually,crimes are often commited by "ethnic criminal groups" (especually in the EU).Don't believe me?Ask any German,Briton,Italian,etc.In Germany policemen even learn Albanian.And does anybody know why? Dimts 18:02, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Wait a sec, if Georgia seceded from Russia, why can't Abhazia and Ossetia use the same logic and secede from Georgia? It has been a part of Russia or Russian Empire, or USSR, or whatever else the Russians will raname their land, what is it with the Russians changing names - St. Petersburg, Petrograd, Leningrad, anyways why does Georgia have to use military to keep these entities within it's borders, while complaining of Russia's use of force? Furthermore, I hope this doesn't happen, but if a war between Russia and Georgia does break out, the only way Georgia's military will be able to survive, is lots of funding from the USA, which means my tax dollars. Also, the Chechnya-Russia-Georgia relations are not at all described in this article, could anyone care to comment what role the Chechen crisis played? Could it be that Georgia supported the Chechen rebels, and Pres. Putin wants a little revenge for the support? Ok well maybe not so little. As for Estonia, it's kinda funny, that's like Djibouti saying: "we believe that the Russo-Georgian conflict is unfounded" why is that even mentioned in the article? If UK and France was to say that, it'd be a whole different ball game. that's like Djibouti saying: "we believe that the Russo-Georgian conflict is unfounded" why is that even mentioned in the article? Point I am making is, since I'll be a USA taxpayer for a long time, why should my tax money even think about going towards this conflict. I mean Russia's big, and it has so many countries to pick on, why pick on Georgia? Is it the only ex-soviet state that has oil? If you think so, see Kazakstan. It's just not making too much sense. Thanks, User ABC.
One question,Kober.How do you know that the results will be dissapointing for the de-facto goverment of Abkhazia?Thousands of Abkhazians died in the war for independence.Then why did they fight for independance in 1993?To reunite with Georgia 15 years later?Where's the logic?!I'm afraid the results will be dissapointing for Tbilisi.But I'm sure the "democratic" regime of Saakashwilli will proclaim such elections "illegitimate". Dimts 12:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
They have the right to live and make decisions of their homeland's future.I'm not arguing on that one.But have forgotten the ethnic majority of Abkhazia (Abkhazians).Are you sure they would want to reunite with Georgia (important:and maybe even get cleansed by Saakashwilli's butchers).Let's not forget the rights of Abkhazians. Dimts 13:19, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
You misunderstood me yet again.I didn't call the people of Georgia "butchers".I do not have anything against Georgians.Under the word "butchers" I've described Saakashwilli's henchmen who are doing all what they can to start a new full-scale war in Abkhazia and South Ossetia.I hope I've cleared the problem.
P.S I don't understand what's the deal with the large amount of pro-Saakashwilli propaganda in Georgia related articles?!Shouldn't it be NPOV? Dimts 16:13, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
It can't be NPOV, cause Saakaashivili rigged the elections. Note: Georgia did not have any of these problems with Shevarnadze, cause that guy knew how to stay neutral. Saakaashivili it seems wants glory, and wants American tax dollars paying for it. After the defeat of the much tougher Cechechen rebels, does anyone really think that Georgia will hold off Russia without American and/or European aid? I mean the Georgians couldn't even beat the Abhazians, and the Russians are much tougher. I also like how Kober avoids the questions he/she is asked, and claims everyone who doesn't agree with his/her 'neutral' POV as xenophobic. Also, Dimts has a good point - if the ethnic majority of Abhazia isn't Abhazians, why did they call it Abhazia? Usually names exist for a reason. Also, Kober you seemed to brilliantly avoid answering any questions, such as, umm, why should American/EU dollars go for defense of Georgia?
Thanks, User ABC
Kober,I forgot to mention YOUR xenophobic statetment.You called the Georgians in Abkhazia the democratic majority.And what about Abkhazians?!You don't take them for people?Are they cannibals,in your opinion?Do you think they're working for Osama bin Laden?Or maybe they're ploting to take over the world? Dimts 12:53, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
I AM NOT trying to discredit you and I am not stalking you.Your post is located in this section (read:it was a reply to my post). Dimts 13:46, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Kober, if I ever have to fight a war, I sincerely hope that you would be the opposing general. Your knowledge of military history is so appalling, that you shouldn't even bother commenting on it, until you read more books on what it is. You claim, and I qoute: "Thirdly, when the US and Western Europe turned a blind eye to the Soviet occupation of Georgia (and not only of Georgia, of course), they soon received the "evil empire" in the midst of Europe". Umm, due to people like you, I kinda want to go back in time and ask the Red Army not to liberate certain parts from Nazi Germany, let Hitler extreminate them. The Western Europe couldn't do anything against the Red Army, and the US and USSR had those thingys called nuclear weapons, ever heard of those? Well should US challenge the USSR's hegemony against Gerogia, (which BTW Moscow NEVER recognized as an independent country, unless it was one of those governments that lasted about a month,) and risk proviking another war with the USSR, or should they sit back behind the Iron Curtain waiting for the USSR to mess up; they did the latter, and it worked. The US and Western Europe couldn't challegen the Soviet Union's hegemony in that area - Duh! If you knew even a bit of military history, even the amount of Baldrick (character in Blackadder IV) you would not have made that statement. I'm sorry, but when you say something that re-interprets a fact, say 1+1=3, which is what you just did, I kinda tend to respond. As for the Encyclopedia Britannica, again Kober here you have to read history, the UK and USSR were at odds, and Churchill even called Stalin the devil, (although he later called Hitler worse then the devil, which is theologically impossible, but Churchill...) so I would think Britannica would be slightly biased against Stalin, just a tad. Furthermore Stalin's ethnic clensing affected everyone, and killed more Russians than any other people! His 5 year plans were a great help, but his purges were mostly hurting the Russians, see that one thingy called statistics. Also, the West (Western Europe and US) 'recieved' the 'evil empire' because they chose to fight it, it was Churchill who made the first 'war' speech, and Truman who cut rations of food to the USSR, while Stalin was just fortifying his borders. Of course Stalin then broke a ton of promises, and declared the West and 'evil empire' and so it began... The sad part is that the Soviet, British and our boys (American troops) got along really well, (not counting crazy Patton) and we could've built a better world, but 'unilateralism' and no one willing to compromise, leads to Cold Wars.
Also if Saakaashivili didn't rig the election, why did he accuse the opposition of staging a revolution? Doesn't he know that those things only work if the vast majority of the nation, hate their leader? Not simply disagree with the policies, but HATE their leader? I mean if he really won the election, he has nothing to worry about.
Also, saying that the West turned a blind eye to Georgia in the Cold War is like saying that the Red and Allied Armies turned a blind eye to Aushwitz until 1944. That's B/S cause they couldn't do anything about it. So Kober, I think I'll be calling my representative, (yes we actually have freedom of speech in the USA, unlike that in Georgia, where you're either pro. one party or a rebel) and asking him to not support the Georgian dictatorship in its struggle to subjugate the Abkhaz people, and those of Ossetia, maybe even the Ingush people too.
User ABC
Ingy, you are 100 percent right! I am sorry that I did not clarify earlier, that I believed that Saakaashvili Administration, and not the Georgian people are to blame for this conflict. If you were at Georgia's helm, I strongly doubt that there would be a problem.
User ABC
Igny,nobody's blaming Georgians.That whole saga is the fault of Saakashvili and his henchmen. Dimts 16:37, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Too many citations. 76.19.173.43 11:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:40, 17 June 2017 (UTC)