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I would lie to point out that the "Safed Plunder" is an event name in Jewish literature, not a description like 1834 pogrom or 1834 riot/massacre. Changing its name or including another 1838 event as part of it is incorrect. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Biosketch asked me to elaborate on the sources I think are problematic in this article. I haven't looked at the rest of the article, but the sources in the "History" section are all either invalid or dubious. I might add that they do not support the article text either.
About the best and most comprehensive source in this section is Kinglake, and the book is a travelogue from 1864! The next cite is to eretzyisroel.org, an obviously partisan blog citing a discredited source, Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial. The source after that is The goodly heritage, published by the Youth Dept of the Zionist Organization, 1958. The source after that is a rehash of Kinglake. Then comes Joan Peters again. Finally, there's a 1960 book of unknown provenance, and then a book in Hebrew, again of totally unknown provenance (which is used to source some of the more exceptional claims). So there isn't a single decent source in this entire section. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I have checked the sources cited. Besides being of dubious reliability, I cannot find information supporting key claims in our article. The parts bolded below are not supported by the sources I could see. Could someone provide full quotes please?
They had been incited by a local Muslim clergyman and self-proclaimed Islamic "prophet" called Muhammad Damoor, who "foresaw" the massacre which he instigated. [1] [2] [3] From his "prophecies":
"the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold, and their silver, and their jewels." [4]
The pogrom went on for 33 days. [5] It caused the Jewish community to dwindle; many Jews were beaten to death or severely wounded. Accounts tell of blinding men, torturing men and women. Alexander Kinglake described the events as a massacre, [2] [1] [6] and Abraham Yaari and others refer to incidents of mass-rape [7] of Jews in Safed, Galilee.
It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500. [8]
Thanks. Tiamut talk 18:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Just a question. Are you actually trying to make these articles citations better or are you attempting to deny that the Arabs carried out genocides upon the indigenous pre-Zionist Jewish population? Just a question. talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC).
I learned about this event in university. I'll look for more sources but this isn't my exact area of expertise for my bachelors in History. I learned about it in contrast to the Palestinian claim that "Jews and Muslims lived peacefully before Zionism." I think the general problem with these articles is that the Pro-Palestine side wants to delete anything that disproves that the Old Yishuv experienced massacres and the Pro-Israel side wants to delete anything about Plan Dalet. I'll look for sources but I think a authority on this time period and subject should be found. DionysosElysees ( talk) 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk] 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Tiamut's concerns over sources are justified. Something like this should be based on the research of modern historians, but at the moment it is a mixture of old second-hand accounts, primary sources uncritically presented, and in some places no clear source at all. Fortunately I found a good scholarly source: Tudor Parfitt, The Jews in Palestine 1800-1882, has about 6 pages on it. Some of it contradicts what is here, such as the claim of 500 deaths. Parfitt also says that the sources disagree on who the perpetrators were. I'll be doing some rewriting based on this source in the near future. Zero talk 00:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
All of the sources in this article appear to lead back to Kinglake's 1844 book Eothen. The chapter on this subject is very colourful, and Kinglake is very clear (1) that he did not witness any of these events, and (2) that the people who told him the story wanted him to influence the consul in Damascus.
Does anyone else agree that the tone of this article is totally incorrect in light of this? Or can someone provide sources which lead back to any meaningfully stronger evidence? Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The article includes the sentence "It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500". [8] Can anyone verify the source? i cannot see the number 500 in the google snippet. Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Other than Kinglake, this article (and the rest of the internet) have one other underlying source for this event, which at this stage do not qualify as RS. That is, an article written in 1934 by a Zionist journalist named Eliezer Rivlin (born 1889 [11]), and translated recently by the late blogger Ami Isseroff. The article is interesting but the translation cannot be RS without the original, and the original would need to clear a high bar given the context in which it was written. Can any Hebrew speakers find the original? Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
This book of Kinglake is a marginal source, but since we are probably going to keep it we should cite it accurately. Far from describing the affair as a massacre (as our text explicitly states, Kinglake wrote only of theft. There isn't a single death mentioned in his book. There isn't a single rape either, in fact he says that the worst thing that happened ("the most odious of all outrages") was that women were searched for valuables. Zero talk 19:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I've asked several Hebrew and Arabic speakers to look for sources in their respective languages. Hopefully unquestionable sources can finally be put into this article so that this horrible massacre of the indigenous people of the Southern Levant can be put into all the Israeli and Palestinian articles that reference this time period.
talk 3:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
This "dionysoselysees" person (who was an earlier banned user), keeps spamming about a few specific incidents in two cities in Palestine; and he also seems not to have realized that the Jews in those two specific cities of Palestine (who were either caught up in this 1834 revolt or in-fighting among Druze factions in Al-Jalil). Also these Jews he is discussing in what is termed the "old yishuv" were people that immigrated to Muslim ruled Palestine from Europe (Germany, Spain, etc). Historylover4 ( talk) 23:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Maybe Kinglake's source is one of few sources in english, but if you look at the hebrew article, you'll find there some more sources, which you cannot ignore. I talk about Moshe Raisher's book, Shaarey Yerushalaim (Jerusalem Gates), 1867. (There is a site which contains the full 1875's edition of the book, published in Lemberg, Galicia) - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/35736
also, Yisroel ben Shmuel of Shklov's book, Pe'at ha-Shulchan, published in 1836, testfies about the events.
And the last - Menachem Mendel of Kamenitz, Hotel owner which lived in Safed in the date of the events wrote a book named Korot Ha-Eytim, published in Vilnus, 1839, which also testifies about the events. The text of the book exists as a part of Ben-Yehuda Project - http://benyehuda.org/boym_m/korot_haitim.html
It's not a big deal to search for english sources, cause you barely find some. You need to find a way to investigate sources in more languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.11.54 ( talk) 16:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
These sources are unacceptable:
Zero talk 22:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Ye'or is a promoter of the silly "Eurabia" xenophobic myth and libel, she is not a source that should be used in any article. Historylover4 ( talk) 21:42, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
No sources I could find in English call it the "Great plunder". In Hebrew, it looks like only מנחם מנדיל מקמניץ refers to it as that. No English source calls it "Safed plunder", but some call it "pogrom". I see no reason how the word "great" can be kept. Thoughts? Chesdovi ( talk) 20:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I have added a POV-title tag. Having looked at a number of references, e.g. here and here, the word implies anti-semitism and government involvement.
The key issue is that the article is clear that the motive for the attack may or may not have been anti-semitism. So we shouldn't use a title that suggests that it was. Oncenawhile ( talk) 20:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
"Similarly, the Jews of Safed were brutally attacked by Muslim and Druze peasants from the vicinity in 1834 and again in 1837 (after the Safed earthquake)." […] "It seems that all these anti-Jewish outbreaks, like many other cases of persecution of Jews, had a common motivation among both Muslims and Christians, namely their traditional religious intolerance and popular feelings of contempt towards the Jews." -- (pp. 147-48 Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman period.)
Zero please don't delete referenced material, this can be considered disruptive (referring to responses to the plunder). Also per upgrade of the State of Palestine, your insisting on utilization of "Palestine" as political division here doesn't make sense, rather confusing. There was no "Palestine" administrative division at the time, and this can easily be considered WP:SYNTH. No one is contesting that this area was named Palestine, but also Galilee and Land of Israel, and even Syria (Ottoman Syria in administrative sense) and few more terms. We should utilize the proper administrative and political division - Egyptian-occupied Ottoman Syria is the most correct for 1834, or Egyptian-occupied Eyalet of Beirut. GreyShark ( dibra) 21:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
This source in Hebrew Cathedra: For the History of Eretz Israel and Its Yishuv (or in pdf) looks like it might have some well sourced information on this topic. Oncenawhile ( talk) 01:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The Sternhell quote refers to an event in 1833, which the editor who linked it here presumably figured was a typo or similar. However, the Jewish Encyclopedia source we use in the article states "In 1833, at the approach of Ibrahim Pasha, the Jewish quarter was plundered by the Druses, although the inhabitants escaped to the suburbs; and the following year it was again pillaged, the persecution lasting thirty-three days, and causing damage to the amount of 135,250 piasters, according to Löwe's investigations". So it looks like there were two events. Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Per the discussion above, it has been established that there is no WP:COMMONNAME for this event. So the remaining question is what is the best name for the article based on the description of the event in the sources. See below a list of the manner of description used by the sources used in the article, as well as additional sources. Note where I have not linked the text, the link is already provided in the article.
[EDIT: added more sources, including those suggested by other editors]
Pogrom: (4)
Looting / Pillage / Plunder / Sack (per the wikipedia article Looting, these words are synonyms): (19)
Riots (2)
Attack (2)
Other
Oncenawhile ( talk) 09:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Per the thread immediately above, I propose to rename this article "1834 looting of Safed".
Comments grateful appreciated. Oncenawhile ( talk) 09:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Note that there is a clear search bias towards "pogrom" since there is no way to search for its absence. (One can use the key "-progrom" but that removes sources that use the word even on a different subject). Zero talk 09:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment Shrike. I am keen to close this long running debate if possible. To refresh everyone's memory, this article was originally named Safed Great Plunder, and Chesdovi changed the name unilaterally (see his explanation here at the time [45]), and was immediately contested. No consensus was ever gained on Chesdovi's renaming, and more sources were brought in the meantime.
Your comment back then was "If the most of the sources use word pogrom then we should use it too", and I agree with your logic. However, as I have shown above, most sources actually use the word "looting" (9 sources), with only 4 using the word "pogrom".
Could you please clarify, based on the sources we now have available, what you believe is the best title for this article and why?
Oncenawhile ( talk) 19:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
1834 Safed pogrom →
1834 looting of Safed –
Background: The article began as
Safed Great Plunder, was moved without consensus
with this comment, and was immediately contested. The dispute over the move was based on (1) that the Hebrew wikipedia name uses the term "הביזה" which means looting / plunder, and (2) that per
definitions of pogrom, the term pogrom is inconsistent in usage and interpretation when applied retrospectively / metaphorically as it is here.
Sources: No single name was found to meet the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME. The list above at #Article name is a list of the descriptive words used to describe this event from a review of the sources in the article and others on google books. It shows:
Hence I propose we move this article to "1834 looting of Safed". Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
The current title negates the fact that many people were killed in Safed and the renaming of this article was done without consensus. All the sources presented are pointing out that beyond looting there were massacres of people, something that was played down and omitted with the current title. The arguments shown by Shrike were ignored. -- Tritomex ( talk) 12:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
All the references used in the article are based on Jewish historians writings , there is hardly any third-party Non-Jewish source.
This should be at least clarified throughout the article.
-- Ahmodye ( talk) 17:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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I would lie to point out that the "Safed Plunder" is an event name in Jewish literature, not a description like 1834 pogrom or 1834 riot/massacre. Changing its name or including another 1838 event as part of it is incorrect. Greyshark09 ( talk) 17:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)
Biosketch asked me to elaborate on the sources I think are problematic in this article. I haven't looked at the rest of the article, but the sources in the "History" section are all either invalid or dubious. I might add that they do not support the article text either.
About the best and most comprehensive source in this section is Kinglake, and the book is a travelogue from 1864! The next cite is to eretzyisroel.org, an obviously partisan blog citing a discredited source, Joan Peters' From Time Immemorial. The source after that is The goodly heritage, published by the Youth Dept of the Zionist Organization, 1958. The source after that is a rehash of Kinglake. Then comes Joan Peters again. Finally, there's a 1960 book of unknown provenance, and then a book in Hebrew, again of totally unknown provenance (which is used to source some of the more exceptional claims). So there isn't a single decent source in this entire section. Gatoclass ( talk) 13:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I have checked the sources cited. Besides being of dubious reliability, I cannot find information supporting key claims in our article. The parts bolded below are not supported by the sources I could see. Could someone provide full quotes please?
They had been incited by a local Muslim clergyman and self-proclaimed Islamic "prophet" called Muhammad Damoor, who "foresaw" the massacre which he instigated. [1] [2] [3] From his "prophecies":
"the true Believers would rise up in just wrath against the Jews, and despoil them of their gold, and their silver, and their jewels." [4]
The pogrom went on for 33 days. [5] It caused the Jewish community to dwindle; many Jews were beaten to death or severely wounded. Accounts tell of blinding men, torturing men and women. Alexander Kinglake described the events as a massacre, [2] [1] [6] and Abraham Yaari and others refer to incidents of mass-rape [7] of Jews in Safed, Galilee.
It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500. [8]
Thanks. Tiamut talk 18:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Just a question. Are you actually trying to make these articles citations better or are you attempting to deny that the Arabs carried out genocides upon the indigenous pre-Zionist Jewish population? Just a question. talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC).
I learned about this event in university. I'll look for more sources but this isn't my exact area of expertise for my bachelors in History. I learned about it in contrast to the Palestinian claim that "Jews and Muslims lived peacefully before Zionism." I think the general problem with these articles is that the Pro-Palestine side wants to delete anything that disproves that the Old Yishuv experienced massacres and the Pro-Israel side wants to delete anything about Plan Dalet. I'll look for sources but I think a authority on this time period and subject should be found. DionysosElysees ( talk) 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[[User_talk:Tiamut|talk] 18:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Tiamut's concerns over sources are justified. Something like this should be based on the research of modern historians, but at the moment it is a mixture of old second-hand accounts, primary sources uncritically presented, and in some places no clear source at all. Fortunately I found a good scholarly source: Tudor Parfitt, The Jews in Palestine 1800-1882, has about 6 pages on it. Some of it contradicts what is here, such as the claim of 500 deaths. Parfitt also says that the sources disagree on who the perpetrators were. I'll be doing some rewriting based on this source in the near future. Zero talk 00:56, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
All of the sources in this article appear to lead back to Kinglake's 1844 book Eothen. The chapter on this subject is very colourful, and Kinglake is very clear (1) that he did not witness any of these events, and (2) that the people who told him the story wanted him to influence the consul in Damascus.
Does anyone else agree that the tone of this article is totally incorrect in light of this? Or can someone provide sources which lead back to any meaningfully stronger evidence? Oncenawhile ( talk) 23:53, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The article includes the sentence "It is not clear how many died, but historians assert the number is high, likely over 500". [8] Can anyone verify the source? i cannot see the number 500 in the google snippet. Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:00, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
Other than Kinglake, this article (and the rest of the internet) have one other underlying source for this event, which at this stage do not qualify as RS. That is, an article written in 1934 by a Zionist journalist named Eliezer Rivlin (born 1889 [11]), and translated recently by the late blogger Ami Isseroff. The article is interesting but the translation cannot be RS without the original, and the original would need to clear a high bar given the context in which it was written. Can any Hebrew speakers find the original? Oncenawhile ( talk) 00:16, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
This book of Kinglake is a marginal source, but since we are probably going to keep it we should cite it accurately. Far from describing the affair as a massacre (as our text explicitly states, Kinglake wrote only of theft. There isn't a single death mentioned in his book. There isn't a single rape either, in fact he says that the worst thing that happened ("the most odious of all outrages") was that women were searched for valuables. Zero talk 19:11, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I've asked several Hebrew and Arabic speakers to look for sources in their respective languages. Hopefully unquestionable sources can finally be put into this article so that this horrible massacre of the indigenous people of the Southern Levant can be put into all the Israeli and Palestinian articles that reference this time period.
talk 3:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
This "dionysoselysees" person (who was an earlier banned user), keeps spamming about a few specific incidents in two cities in Palestine; and he also seems not to have realized that the Jews in those two specific cities of Palestine (who were either caught up in this 1834 revolt or in-fighting among Druze factions in Al-Jalil). Also these Jews he is discussing in what is termed the "old yishuv" were people that immigrated to Muslim ruled Palestine from Europe (Germany, Spain, etc). Historylover4 ( talk) 23:16, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Maybe Kinglake's source is one of few sources in english, but if you look at the hebrew article, you'll find there some more sources, which you cannot ignore. I talk about Moshe Raisher's book, Shaarey Yerushalaim (Jerusalem Gates), 1867. (There is a site which contains the full 1875's edition of the book, published in Lemberg, Galicia) - http://www.hebrewbooks.org/35736
also, Yisroel ben Shmuel of Shklov's book, Pe'at ha-Shulchan, published in 1836, testfies about the events.
And the last - Menachem Mendel of Kamenitz, Hotel owner which lived in Safed in the date of the events wrote a book named Korot Ha-Eytim, published in Vilnus, 1839, which also testifies about the events. The text of the book exists as a part of Ben-Yehuda Project - http://benyehuda.org/boym_m/korot_haitim.html
It's not a big deal to search for english sources, cause you barely find some. You need to find a way to investigate sources in more languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.181.11.54 ( talk) 16:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
These sources are unacceptable:
Zero talk 22:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
Ye'or is a promoter of the silly "Eurabia" xenophobic myth and libel, she is not a source that should be used in any article. Historylover4 ( talk) 21:42, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
No sources I could find in English call it the "Great plunder". In Hebrew, it looks like only מנחם מנדיל מקמניץ refers to it as that. No English source calls it "Safed plunder", but some call it "pogrom". I see no reason how the word "great" can be kept. Thoughts? Chesdovi ( talk) 20:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I have added a POV-title tag. Having looked at a number of references, e.g. here and here, the word implies anti-semitism and government involvement.
The key issue is that the article is clear that the motive for the attack may or may not have been anti-semitism. So we shouldn't use a title that suggests that it was. Oncenawhile ( talk) 20:29, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
"Similarly, the Jews of Safed were brutally attacked by Muslim and Druze peasants from the vicinity in 1834 and again in 1837 (after the Safed earthquake)." […] "It seems that all these anti-Jewish outbreaks, like many other cases of persecution of Jews, had a common motivation among both Muslims and Christians, namely their traditional religious intolerance and popular feelings of contempt towards the Jews." -- (pp. 147-48 Studies on Palestine during the Ottoman period.)
Zero please don't delete referenced material, this can be considered disruptive (referring to responses to the plunder). Also per upgrade of the State of Palestine, your insisting on utilization of "Palestine" as political division here doesn't make sense, rather confusing. There was no "Palestine" administrative division at the time, and this can easily be considered WP:SYNTH. No one is contesting that this area was named Palestine, but also Galilee and Land of Israel, and even Syria (Ottoman Syria in administrative sense) and few more terms. We should utilize the proper administrative and political division - Egyptian-occupied Ottoman Syria is the most correct for 1834, or Egyptian-occupied Eyalet of Beirut. GreyShark ( dibra) 21:22, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
This source in Hebrew Cathedra: For the History of Eretz Israel and Its Yishuv (or in pdf) looks like it might have some well sourced information on this topic. Oncenawhile ( talk) 01:00, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
The Sternhell quote refers to an event in 1833, which the editor who linked it here presumably figured was a typo or similar. However, the Jewish Encyclopedia source we use in the article states "In 1833, at the approach of Ibrahim Pasha, the Jewish quarter was plundered by the Druses, although the inhabitants escaped to the suburbs; and the following year it was again pillaged, the persecution lasting thirty-three days, and causing damage to the amount of 135,250 piasters, according to Löwe's investigations". So it looks like there were two events. Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Per the discussion above, it has been established that there is no WP:COMMONNAME for this event. So the remaining question is what is the best name for the article based on the description of the event in the sources. See below a list of the manner of description used by the sources used in the article, as well as additional sources. Note where I have not linked the text, the link is already provided in the article.
[EDIT: added more sources, including those suggested by other editors]
Pogrom: (4)
Looting / Pillage / Plunder / Sack (per the wikipedia article Looting, these words are synonyms): (19)
Riots (2)
Attack (2)
Other
Oncenawhile ( talk) 09:09, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Per the thread immediately above, I propose to rename this article "1834 looting of Safed".
Comments grateful appreciated. Oncenawhile ( talk) 09:10, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
Note that there is a clear search bias towards "pogrom" since there is no way to search for its absence. (One can use the key "-progrom" but that removes sources that use the word even on a different subject). Zero talk 09:23, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your comment Shrike. I am keen to close this long running debate if possible. To refresh everyone's memory, this article was originally named Safed Great Plunder, and Chesdovi changed the name unilaterally (see his explanation here at the time [45]), and was immediately contested. No consensus was ever gained on Chesdovi's renaming, and more sources were brought in the meantime.
Your comment back then was "If the most of the sources use word pogrom then we should use it too", and I agree with your logic. However, as I have shown above, most sources actually use the word "looting" (9 sources), with only 4 using the word "pogrom".
Could you please clarify, based on the sources we now have available, what you believe is the best title for this article and why?
Oncenawhile ( talk) 19:36, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 00:52, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
1834 Safed pogrom →
1834 looting of Safed –
Background: The article began as
Safed Great Plunder, was moved without consensus
with this comment, and was immediately contested. The dispute over the move was based on (1) that the Hebrew wikipedia name uses the term "הביזה" which means looting / plunder, and (2) that per
definitions of pogrom, the term pogrom is inconsistent in usage and interpretation when applied retrospectively / metaphorically as it is here.
Sources: No single name was found to meet the criteria of WP:COMMONNAME. The list above at #Article name is a list of the descriptive words used to describe this event from a review of the sources in the article and others on google books. It shows:
Hence I propose we move this article to "1834 looting of Safed". Oncenawhile ( talk) 08:06, 21 September 2014 (UTC)
The current title negates the fact that many people were killed in Safed and the renaming of this article was done without consensus. All the sources presented are pointing out that beyond looting there were massacres of people, something that was played down and omitted with the current title. The arguments shown by Shrike were ignored. -- Tritomex ( talk) 12:43, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
All the references used in the article are based on Jewish historians writings , there is hardly any third-party Non-Jewish source.
This should be at least clarified throughout the article.
-- Ahmodye ( talk) 17:22, 8 November 2021 (UTC)